Who'd want to coach HS baseball?

They would also hold the coach accountable.  If the runs a good program he should be fine. 

Golfman, say that I have a losing season and there are parents of influence who have kids who may play their 2 years of varsity, does that lack of success that year and their whining equate to all of the good I did for those other years?  Say that I was removed, can the new coach replace me?  Would they be willing to do all of those things?  What was my overall benefit to that district?  How many parents know what a program was like before any given coach took over?  How many parents know the history of a HS with regards to a sport?  Parents view the program in very limited terms meaning their child. 

 

Now, having said all of that, one thing I learned the hard way is that everyone can be replaced.  If you make a powerful parent or, in my case many moons ago, an administrator angry at you, regardless of what you achieved, you could be out the door.  I walked out one door and in to another.  At the time, I was so angry.  It turned out to be one of the best things to happen to me. 

That is where a quality administration/board comes in.  They should be able to look past the couple of parents whining and look objectively at the program as a whole and its accomplishments.  Now, I will readily admit that type of administration is tough to find. 

 

Realize there are thousands of HS programs out there.  Every so often, on makes the news where "those parents" are upset.  Then we talk about it here.  However, the vast majority of parents are reasonable.  If treated with respect they won't be a problem. 

That is where a quality administration/board comes in.  They should be able to look past the couple of parents whining and look objectively at the program as a whole and its accomplishments.  Now, I will readily admit that type of administration is tough to find. 

 

Realize there are thousands of HS programs out there.  Every so often, on makes the news where "those parents" are upset.  Then we talk about it here.  However, the vast majority of parents are reasonable.  If treated with respect they won't be a problem.

Through 2 different HS's for our sons, 1 got it…1 did not.  Wanna guess which one had the far superior school as a whole and athletics program?

It's not noted in the story that the only 2 coaches that before Coach Jon gave their support of him. In 54 years there have only been 3 coaches. He's a alumni of the school who graduated and came back to teach at the school. He was the JV coach for 9 years before taking over varsity from a coach that was there over 30+ years. He's the only teacher that teaches the special ed kids gym class. I was there for every game every practice. It all came down to playing time. Some of the parents are former Daddy ball coaches that are having a hard time realizing that not everyone get a medal or trophy now. They need to welcome their sons to adulthood where you don't always win in life. Unfortunately one of the Board of Education members sons was cut and also the board President grandson was a bench player and they both weren't happy about it.  Both were asked to recuse themselves from a vote about the coach's job and would not answer. The best teammates were put on the field. I believe that's the way it should be. It seems like right now that Coach Jon will lose his teaching job not only his coaching job for putting what he believe the best team on the field. Isn't that what he supposed to do as a coach?

 

but strong administrators who have your back will wipe out the stress from the equation.

 

Good luck with that one.

Already got it. Strong principal, campus coordinator and AD. 

 

Now that doesn't mean every ounce of stress is gone, but the stress being replaced for pissing off the wrong people is not there,

Now that doesn't mean every ounce of stress is gone, but the stress being replaced for pissing off the wrong people is not there

 

Been around a long time I hate to be skeptical but give it time

You really think that is the only responsibility of a coach?  Put the best 9 on the field, win as many games as possible,  and do what for the other kids on the team?  Nothing whatsoever?  Lecture them about "working harder to get better?"   How about actually coaching them,  giving them some opportunities to improve, to succeed or fail?    Sounds as i you think the coach is there to figure out who the best 9 are, play them, and forget about the rest.   If that is a high school coaches attitude,  I submit he or she doesn't belong anywhere near a high school team. 

What is the definition of the "best nine"?   Is the best nine the nine that include your son?  I have yet to hear a parent say " I don't now why this stupid coach starts my son, he is not the one of the best nine."  He keeps making errors and I have to have a talk  with the coach to get my son out of the starting lineup.

 

Most coaches that I have seen put the players on the field that gives the team the best chance to win  that game.  Some coaches feel that playing the 9 that play the best together are the best nine.  Some feel the most talented will end up making the most plays and that's the best nine.   Sometimes players get worse and sometimes that get better, injuries , grades, players move.... and the best nine change.... 

 

If I have learned anything on this board  it's to make sure that your player is prepared when the time comes for them to be in the best nine. Parents only see one side of the story.  Coaches are human, they make mistakes, sure there are some that are down right terrible, but they are few and far between. 

 

It's freaking hard to be supportive when your player is not getting what you think he/she deserves.  But you have to do it.... you find yourself at the playing time crossroad, you can get positive and get prepared for when the time comes, and it will,  or you can be negative and I promise you it will rub off on your player and you will be sorry.

 

Control what you can control.....leave the high school coach alone......

 

First of all High School isn't rec ball.  The best play.  The other players get opportunities to practice, work on their skills, and compete to be one of the best 9.  High school teams/coaches are expected to win conferences and advance in regional, sectional and state play.  I haven't read one coach on this site say that they ignore all others on a team to just practice the top 9.  Coaches have practice plans geared to develop all players.  On my team, every player saw live arm every day.  Was the amount the same?  Nope.  I only have one arm and threw hundreds each day.  Players were told their roles and their chances for opportunities.  If they don't like it or, as I told the parents, if the parents don't like it, then remove your son.  I can't speak for all coaches but if I did not win, I knew that my job was in jeopardy.  We play one of the toughest schedules around and so, we play every game to win.  I am on the record for saying that I do think that there is a place to schedule a few teams were you can get other players into the game.   

Yeah I'm not sure where this attitude that coaches don't try to develop the guys on the bench comes from.  I have yet to see any high school sport where the starters practiced while the rest sat there and did very little.  If that were to happen I could see people complaining and athletes quitting.  I know I would if I was a teenager I would lose interest and find something else.  

 

Like CoachB25 said HS varsity is the time winning starts mattering.  You identify your best 12 players and focus on them but the rest on the team do get coached.  You're crazy if you don't.  You create practice plans that will incorporate all players into drills to get better.  But like bacdoorslider said the best 9 could change from game to game based on whatever variable is there.  This, and cupcake games, are where the others get a chance to gain more playing time - not because everyone gets a trophy and snocone.

 

Another aspect about admin support is you could have the greatest admin in the world.  They support you (as long as you're doing right) and keep parents off your back.  So you're able to build a great program due to this.  Then that principal up and retires or is transferred to another school - now it's a crapshoot as to what happens next.  It happens a lot.  The principal who hired me in KY was awesome and if he were to un-retire I would do everything I can to work for him again - he was that good and we did some great things during his time.  The guy who replaced him wasn't as good.  All of a sudden everything I did was under scrutiny although I hadn't changed a thing in how I was coaching and running the program.  I got called to the office for "program discussions" and some concerns the parents had.  Needless to say I got fed up and left.  They haven't won a district since I left and only made it to the region once.  They are now on their second head coach since I left.  The good ole boy network will destroy a team really quick.

 

This happens more than people realize.  There's a school near me who in my 6 years in NC has went through 4 head coaches since I got down here.  When I first got here they were very good and usually went 2 or 3 rounds into the playoffs.  They now are completely inept on the field yet they still have athletes out there.  I watch them play and just imagine what I could do with them but then I remember how bad the parents are.  I definitely do not want to go through that.

So all the coaches here seem to agree that coaches have SOME obligation to All players, even the bench players. ( Not necessarily an equal obligation?  Not sure what folks think about that one.) You clearly think that All players should get SOME coaching, SOME opportunities to improve,  SOME  practice reps at a minimum. How much you think the "lesser" players  deserve from you in comparison to the starters isn't clear.   By the logic that you should at some point "focus" on your best players, it would seem to follow that the best players should get more reps, more feedback, more, well, coaching,  since it is imperative that they be at their best since they are mostly going to play and the other guys mostly aren't.

You all also  agree that when it comes to playing time there is no obligation to players at all. The overriding obligation is to win.  Everything else is secondary. Moreover, neither player nor parent has any standing to "complain" about the distribution of playing time.  They can, I suppose, ask you what the principles and rules are that govern playing time. And you  will tell them he truth.  The truth is that in general the best players -- as perceived by you at that time in that situation -- will play.  And once they understand that they should basically  shut up and butt out of your business -- which is winning games.

Their players should shut up too.  They should accept their roles or, if they don't like their roles they should  bust their balls (in their limited practice reps?) getting better or quit the team.  You'd prefer the former of course cause otherwise you are left only with a bunch of entitled starters who think they can't be touched. A sense of  entitlement -- to anything in sports (in life too?) -- is the worst thing.  So I assume you want the bench guys in there pushing, trying to improve, trying to take a starters spot.

Of course, if they do get better,  you will notice and reward them because you are open to being convinced. Right?  I mean you want to win. So why wouldn't you be?

Exactly how your back up guys will convince you with their relatively limited opportunities and your higher focus on what you perceive to be the best players is not so clear.  But again parents and players  just have to trust you.  A player especially has to believe -- is he "entitled" to believe? -- that his hard work will not go unnoticed and unrewarded by you.  I suppose you would advise him not to think he's exactly entitled to believe any such thing though.  He should never ever let himself think that you have failed to take notice.  (Nor should his parents.) If he has been busting his balls and STILL hasn't cracked your lineup, what he SHOULD believe is that he hasn't busted his balls hard enough. He should never let himself believe that you may have blinders on.   He should always assume that you  never play favorites.  He should assume that you instincts about a player  are never or at least seldom wrong.   If a player starts down that road, he is playing the victim-- placing fault on you, where the fault is always his own. And even if it isn't his fault, he should act as if it is -- otherwise he is getting in his own way.  In effect, he should never ever think more of himself than you think of him.

To be sure,  since you do have to think about the future, you may want to give some  players who may not be starting right now but are in your future plans some live game reps.  That's just being pragmatic and operating from a sense of extended self-interest. But no player who is not a future starter should have any expectations about any playing time at all. 

Once you are left alone and once everybody falls in line behind you, acknowledges your unassailable wisdom, you promise to do your level best to win.  And once you win everybody will be happy.

If that's about it, then it follows that school boards and principals and AD's had better chose their coaches wisely and monitor them closely. I have met very very few people in whom I'd be willing to put the degree of trust and deference to which high school coaches think they are "entitled."  Somebody had better make sure they deserve and have earned their sense of entitlement.

Sluggerdad , it seems whatever is said will not satisfy you. There are so many variables  , what exactly is the problem ? Is the problem that said player is not good enough? Is it a personality conflict?   Youneed to  be concerned with how your player fits on the team. Do you feel the coach is only interested in the top 12 players ? What exactly has the coach done

I don't blame you. There's a lot of tougher things out there to be doing than coaching a HS baseball team. Plus, there's that extra income on top of the teacher salary so it's a pretty good life. If you can run a program, set the tone from day 1 and run a real program, for the most part, these outside distractions can be minimalized some. I'm not going to say it'll always work that way but if you love this job, then dealing with this outside stuff just goes with the territory

I guess i wasn't clear in my first post. I am/was a player from this team. That's why i said every practice every game. My teammates were told their roles at the beginning of the season. They had the choice to stay  if they wanted on the team in that role. I did say the coach put the best team on the field. That didn't mean it was always the same players. The infield pretty much stayed the same. The outfield and DH changed depending on who was hitting better or lefty/righty pitcher. BTW I only played 1 a week or so since I was PO,not 1 at bat. That was my role I knew that going in.

If I was a high school coach and this thread was a real life situation I'd be discussing a certain player with my coaching staff. We would be discussing whether or not the kid has an impact or has the potential to have an impact on the success of the team. If I'm getting negative feedback that agrees with my opinion the next step is to consider the value of the player on the team versus the attitude of a parent who seems to twist every statement to be anti coach and fit the needs of his argument.

 

I realize coaching travel is different than coaching high school. I would just choose not to have the player return and find another player. Plus as a travel coach I'm the final word. There isn't an AD for the parent to run to with twisted, perverted truth for the purpose of getting me fired.

 

I haven't seen any coach's explanations that match the parent's/poster's perception of their responses. I'm feeling sorrier by the moment for high school coaches who don't have strong ADs standing behind them.

 

Another picture I'm seeing in this thread is if a high school has a weak AD they will have weak sports programs. Good coaches either won't last or won't take the job where the AD doesn't have their back. 

value of the player on the team versus the attitude of a parent 

 

Players should be evaluated by their talent. Seems in some cases now that talent has to be weighed against what the parent brings? Very telling

       
       



No problem at all.  Just trying to understand the logic of the parent-coach-player dynamic w.r.t possible complaints about playing time. This is just an exercise to see if I get where certain people are coming from. Nothing at all personal. The logic seems to be parents should be seen but seldom heard.  Coach srhould be given a very wide degree of latitude and almost always the benefit of the doubt.  I really am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth or twist their meanings, just trying to be clear about what they are really saying, even if they don 't fully realize the implications themselves.

parent-coach-player dynamic ...

 

Coaches coach

Players play

Parents cheer

 

Parents are not agents for their baseball playing son. A high school player is old enough to have a rational discussion with a high school coach. 

       
       


Right.  That's what I was sort of saying above

 

Seems like you were more than willing to twist and contort Nj2016's words  to get where you wanted...to condemn his coach as "unfit" when you are clear across the Country.

In my view, your very last sentence in the last post says so much..."even if they don't fully realize the implications themselves."  I wonder if you can appreciate how that comes across as a reflection of you and your attitude on this topic and especially your attitude toward the views of others?

You have already asked for advice on this site on how to respond to a college coach seeking input about your son from his HS coach, who has been "fired."  You have also posted the name of a college coach who has expressed interest in your son.

I sure hope your vendetta about HS coaches does not end up jeopardizing options for your son beyond HS. 

One thing which is pretty clear to me, though, is your postings strongly suggest you may well not be positioning your son for the mental rigors he, like every son and player will find when he steps on a  college baseball field.

Really, dude?   I don't even  have a view about this particular situation or coach.  I haven't even weighed in on that.  Again, just trying to figure out the logic of the argument.  Nothing personal.  No vendetta.  No nothing.   I think there are many great coaches out there.  I actually think there are some great coaches on this board and respect them a lot. 

 I really am just trying to figure out the logic of the argument about coaches and parent and players at the HS level -- since every time there is a whiff of a parent "complaint" aired on this board, the parent is really hammered  -- no matter the nature of the complaint.    Just asking what logic is behind the relentless hammering.  

You are clearly a very intelligent guy who has put a great deal of thought into this.  Please outline what you think is the right way a coach should handle each point in your post.  What would be the correct philosophy?

Cabbage  I think that is more or less the correct philosophy -- assuming that the coach doesn't have blinders on and is open to having his mind changed, etc.

 

If he isn't, then its a different story.

 

The consequence I draw is sincere --  parents really need to trust AD's, school boards, etc to look out for their interest.   They can't really do so themselves.  Losing battle for themselves and, especially, their sons. 

 

Also, cabbage, by the way, I would trust my son in your hands any day.   You strike me as a great guy, sensitive and understanding of competing points of view.  I suspect you are pretty awesome with your players. 

 

 

 

"Really, dude?   I don't even  have a view about this particular situation or coach.  I haven't even weighed in on that."

 

"If that is a high school coaches attitude,  I submit he or she doesn't belong anywhere near a high school team."

 

Your exact words to Nj2016. He summarized the approach of his HS coach, from his perspective of being a member of the team. It is also the coach and team which  is the subject of the article which started this thread.

 As bacdorslider's post really emphasized, what will satisfy you?

Your posts make clear what satisfies others isn't for you. What does?

Glad I asked the question and thank you for the comment.  I suspected that perhaps you were not in disagreement on as many points as your post may have implied.

 

I think everyone here would agree that there are often challenges with the parent/coach/player dynamics and there is never perfection coming from any one side.  In fact, the closest thing I see to it usually comes from a player.  And that player usually has a parent that I am aware of but hear from only enough to know why this player demonstrates that strength in character.

Sure you're trying to put words into someone's mouth.  You take statements made and do twist them.  An example would be that backups get less reps and so, you now state that this means that they get less coaching.  Where was that stated in this thread?  (Please reference it since I could have missed it.)  A starter may get 2 to 1 ground balls in a given drill.  However, a coach might spend more time coaching the backup since the starter might already have that skill down.  In another drill, they may be split equally in fielding/hitting reps.  Both might receive the same coaching as per say situational hitting.  So, your assumption, in a case like this doesn't fit the reality of what most coaches do.  Also, you want to continue with your scenario about the poor backup not getting a chance to ...  The facts are that the vast majority of kids know where they stand, know what they have to do and understand that in any given practice there are times for them to continue to work on their game.  For example, I coached a team once that was very good and, in fact, the #1 high school team in America.  When practice was completed and the players were released, many of these kids stuck around for more.  More of everything.  It was like a second practice.  Those kids not starting realized that they were not as good as the starters but that most of the starters were going to graduate and so, there would be several starting spots available the next year.  They worked on their own to be better but, I typically stuck around to work with them. 

 

Most good program do not have players standing around.  They are rotating through various drills.  Sure, a starter might get 50 or 60 reps in a particular drill.  Still, the backup is getting 40 to 50.  It isn't like most of us have the starter get 10 to 1 reps. 

 

You are putting words in coaches mouths when you continue to suggest or imply that we don't care about our backups.  Most coaches know that a team is more than 9 and that a successful team/program makes sure all players benefit from the program. 

 

Finally, most coaches I know have a communication plan for parents.  I outlined mine every year that I coached.  Most parents didn't need to use it and of those none of them wanted their child present when we had our meeting.  I would only meet if the child was present so that the child could hear exactly what was said.  However, make no mistake about it, that child would already know my position because I would have outlined it to them when the season began and then during the season. 

 

Sluggersdad, it is good to know that you are one of those parents than is good to go when your son sits in lieu of a another player playing who has less skills.  It is also good to know that there are parents out there who don't care about winning at the HS level at all.  Per myself, my child knows that she can be beaten out and so, she works every day to make sure that no one can take her position.  She understands about "entitlement" and that she is never entitled. 

parents really need to trust AD's, school boards, etc to look out for their interest.   They can't really do so themselves.  Losing battle for themselves and, especially, their sons. 

 

Their best interest? Is that their son plays even though he has not hit a lick  and can't catch a cold?     Seriously though  The best interest is the end result of the TEAM. 

Coach B25:

 

You seem like another great coach.  Seems like you are open to communication with parents, players, etc.   I'm just trying to figure out when people on this board think or don't think a parent and/or player (different animals I know) might have a legitimate right to "complain"  or not.  

 

Again, my thoughts are prompted by the fact that  I have never seen a parent complaint treated with any sympathy on this board -- well, that's not quite true.  Some of the folks on the board are quite reasonable -- you being one of them.  Some are not so reasonable in my humble opinion.  As I read more, I think I'm getting a feel for who is reasonable and who is "my way or the highway" type.

 

Again,  I'm just trying to figure out the underlying  logic of it all. .  Remember awhile back I said "being maximal charitable to parents for a second"  I thought that maybe most complaints about "playing time"  weren't really about playing time, but something else that playing time is maybe a proxy for -- equal chances, equal coaching, etc.  It sounds like you fully agree that if that is the real complaint it is maybe justified.  If it's not, maybe not. 

 

I wouldn't make any blanket statements about particular coaches, without knowing the details.  

 

 

See my post about losing my HS position to the Principals son.  That coach made a decision based on "a powerful parent" and ended up with a teaching job and the AD spot.  He played ball and got paid.

If a powerful parent can influence who gets positions within the school system that anyone involved would be wise to be paying attention to.  Since many/most coaches are also teachers their livelihood and possible future advancement is really at stake when those people start rattling cages.  In the public systems the union protects jobs, in the privates not so much. 

 

It is the same in all walks of life.  As the saying goes, it's not what you know but who you know. 

This is no different than life. Promotions can be based on who you drink with, who you golf with, in some cases who you sleep with. Sometimes jobs are filled by the need to satisfy a quota. Sometimes it's just having the talent to suck up versus telling it like it is. I've already given my kids the bad news. Neither one of them will ever be chairman of the board at Ford Motor Company because their last name isn't Ford.

HA - In my original post I specifically noted the life lesson I learned and have never forgotten was it does matter who you know.  It was one of two points of the post at the time.  The other was HS coaches could have motivations for not playing the best players that have nothing to do with winning or losing.

 

As the string went on the context changed to powerful parents so I re-raised the point but did not drag the who you know issue back with it.  It is funny though that is seems to have resonated more now than when I put it out there the first time.

 

 

Today after church service a young man walked up to me and stuck out his hand. With tears in his eyes and lips quivering he said "I want you to know something. You pushed me. You were hard on me. You taught me to fight for what I wanted. Every time I wanted give up. Every time I wanted to quit your words would ring in my head. You made a better man coach. Your the reason I'm where I am today coach. I love you coach."

We hugged as tears ran down both our cheeks. That is why, that is why.

Who would want to coach HS?  A man with a heart that wants to touch hearts.  Good coaches are like good parents...undervalued as it is happening, highly valued after the fact. 

You were hard on me.

 

Great story. I hate to say that now is the exception rather than the rule. 30 40 years ago more of it. I have been out 15 years. I know if I approached it like I did today I would be scrutinized. I was no nonsense. You either did your job or you were riding the pine. And yes I got in players faces but they could handle it.Now you have to be told of their self esteem and damaging their ego.