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Who does not accept JUCO's?

ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Lets try a different track here...

I keep seeing this harangue here on the hsbbweb that some schools (especially from the northeast) do not accept JUCO transfers. I find that hard to believe other than maybe some of the IVIES.

Well, who are they?

I need specifics here. I don't want people's opinions as to who does and does not accept them. Either post literature from a respective school's webpage that they specifically do not accept JUCO's or post first-hand experience. In other words, you asked a guidance counselor at the respective college and they told you JUCO's were not accepted. I don't want to hear second or third-hand anecdotes on this matter i.e., my neighbor or country-club member suggested that school A from the northeast does not accept JUCO's.

I know from watching the movie "Rudy" that at least Notre Dame accepts JUCO's and from what I know about post high school academics, they are pretty highly regarded
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ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Pedropere:
Most schools list their transfer requirements on their admissions websites.

and... what? Are you aware of one or more that specifically does not accept them?

None of us have the time to go look them all up. Hopefully a thread like this can provide a service to our members. We constantly get people posting that there are schools out there (i.e., from the northeast) that don't accept JUCO's and frankly those types of comments have gone unchallenged here for a long time.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
I think the harangue is not about students. It's about students' credits. Also, how are you defining 'junior college'? There may be a difference in lexicon.

http://www.usaeducationguides....-college-credits.jsp

In order to be admitted to most major programs, schools require a specific grade point average (GPA) on all transferable courses. Transferable courses are those courses taken at a previous school that the receiving institution deems acceptable. Transfer of courses is one of the pitfalls of transfer to another school. College B may not accept all of the credits passed at College A. Why? Quite simply, courses taken at a remedial level will not transfer to many institutions. This disparity is particularly relevant when moving from a junior or community college to a senior college. The two-year schools often offer courses designed to augment a student's background in certain subjects. Most prominent among these are English courses, which prepare the student for college writing but are not English Composition I. Similarly, students lacking sufficient mathematical foundations might take elementary or intermediate algebra, but these are considered remedial because college algebra is the first such course offered for degree credit at the vast majority of universities.

Credits from technical or vocational courses, particularly those completed in a two-year college as part of a terminal technical program, will not transfer. Finally, courses passed with a grade of D frequently are nontransferable. Check with the school to which you plan to transfer to learn what the policy is for transferring outside courses.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
AntzDad - with all due respect, I think you missed the point of this thread. We are not talking about remedial courses here or what will transfer and what will not. For instance, using your math analogy, I agree college algebra does not transfer but I am talking about Calculus, for example. Calculus is Calculus whether it is taught at juco or at Harvard - there is nothing remedial about that course. English 101 is the same at juco and Harvard. Psychology 101, Chemistry 101, etc, etc, etc. The main difference between juco's and four year schools is that you can only get the first two years of an undergraduate degree at the juco.

My question is are you aware of one institution that will not accept a JUCO student as a transfer? Name one institution, that is all I am asking. Name more if you can think of them.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Calculus is Calculus whether it is taught at juco or at Harvard - there is nothing remedial about that course. English 101 is the same at juco and Harvard. Psychology 101, Chemistry 101, etc, etc, etc. The main difference between juco's and four year schools is that you can only get the first two years of an undergraduate degree at the juco.
While I agree that there can be some professors at JUCOs (or state U's) that are as good or better than prestigious schools, is there perhaps another difference? Many students attend JUCOs (at least around here) because they're just not quite ready for a 4-yr school's rigors. It's often looked at as a stepping stone, a place to hone study and time management skills before progressing. OTOH, if the caliber of students at a 4-year college is often more "advanced", don't you think maybe the professors adapt to the pace that their students can handle? IOW, maybe they get to more material, or go deeper into it?

I'm not suggesting all courses at all JUCOs are in this basket, but I do think enough might be that a blanket statement suggesting that like-named courses are the same at JUCOs vs. 4-year schools might be a bit of a stretch, IMHO.
Last edited by Sandman
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
I taught at a JUCO in Texas after teaching at a service academy.

At the service academy, I was considered one of the toughest graders in my department.

At the JUCO, my department head had the attitude that anyone who got through his program should be able to succeed in an upper level course at any college in the country. He periodically reviewed student papers I had graded and actually told me to get one notch tighter on my grading, something that never happened at the selective school.

This guy was committed to teaching and to his students' long term success in a way that professors at name brand schools who delegate the grading of papers to TA's don't have the opportunity to be. He said, "We don't do research here. We don't teach advanced courses. The only thing we do is teach lower level courses, so we should do it better than the four year schools do."

It's true that a lot of students at JUCO's are behind in preparation or motivation, but the rigorous placement systems at most JUCO's keep those kids in the remedial programs until they're ready for the courses that actually count toward the degree. A serious student who is prepared for college can get a very good start on a quality 4-year degree at a JUCO.

I have degrees from 3 name brand institutions, but I'm a big believer in what well run JUCO's can do.
birdman14birdman141,000+ posts
Just like there are good and bad academic 4 year schools, the same applies to JUCO's. When researching Junior colleges, one should be asking questions about their transfers, and what 4 year schools they end up at. I can only speak of the experience here in NJ with any authority. I know kids from my son and daughters high school that have gone the JUCO route, been accepted and had their credits transfer at Ivy League schools.

Saying it does not happen is just not true.
Last edited by birdman14
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Calculus is Calculus whether it is taught at juco or at Harvard - there is nothing remedial about that course. English 101 is the same at juco and Harvard. Psychology 101, Chemistry 101, etc, etc, etc. The main difference between juco's and four year schools is that you can only get the first two years of an undergraduate degree at the juco.
While I agree that there can be some professors at JUCOs (or state U's) that are as good or better than prestigious schools, is there perhaps another difference? Many students attend JUCOs (at least around here) because they're just not quite ready for a 4-yr school's rigors. It's often looked at as a stepping stone, a place to hone study and time management skills before progressing. OTOH, if the caliber of students at a 4-year college is often more "advanced", don't you think maybe the professors adapt to the pace that their students can handle? IOW, maybe they get to more material, or go deeper into it?

I'm not suggesting all courses at all JUCOs are in this basket, but I do think enough might be that a blanket statement suggesting that like-named courses are the same at JUCOs vs. 4-year schools might be a bit of a stretch, IMHO.



I have to join ClevelandDad's side on this one. JUCO's are more likely to place the students in the course that matches their preparation, they are more likely to insist they demonstrate competence before letting them out of their remedial system, and they are less likely to offer a "Gentleman's C" (or B or A) to kids who merely show up.

Big four-year schools with loosey-goosey distribution requirements let a lot of kids party their way to unmarketable degrees. I recently reviewed the transcript of a job applicant who had graduated from a major conference school. He had no calculus, no stats, no computer science, no lab science of any kind, and his humanities courses were trendy "Gender Issues" courses that don't require mastery of a body of knowledge. He had courses in Intermediate Guitar and Drawing for Non Majors, but not much serious substance anywhere. Even in his major of English, he slid through without taking a course in Shakespeare, Chaucer, or Milton. Basically, he had a degree that didn't demonstrate any useful knowledge or preparation to function in our society.

That sort of frivolous waste of time and parental money is far less likely to happen at a JUCO.

For the freshman and sophomore level courses that JUCO's teach, I give their transcripts a great deal of credibility. Because, yes, Calc I is basically Calc I.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Calculus is Calculus whether it is taught at juco or at Harvard - there is nothing remedial about that course. English 101 is the same at juco and Harvard. Psychology 101, Chemistry 101, etc, etc, etc. The main difference between juco's and four year schools is that you can only get the first two years of an undergraduate degree at the juco.
While I agree that there can be some professors at JUCOs (or state U's) that are as good or better than prestigious schools, is there perhaps another difference? Many students attend JUCOs (at least around here) because they're just not quite ready for a 4-yr school's rigors. It's often looked at as a stepping stone, a place to hone study and time management skills before progressing. OTOH, if the caliber of students at a 4-year college is often more "advanced", don't you think maybe the professors adapt to the pace that their students can handle? IOW, maybe they get to more material, or go deeper into it?

I'm not suggesting all courses at all JUCOs are in this basket, but I do think enough might be that a blanket statement suggesting that like-named courses are the same at JUCOs vs. 4-year schools might be a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

Unbelievable The blanket statement was that juco's were for remedial work and that was what was responded to. Earlier in this thread, a link was posted that some of these "elite" schools do in fact accept juco transfers. If there were "depth" issues, they would reject these types of transfers summarily so that argument does not hold water.

Please, please, please, stick to the topic of the thread. A simple question is being asked here. Please name the school (other than a military academy) that does not accept juco transfers?
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
My question is are you aware of one institution that will not accept a JUCO student as a transfer? Name one institution, that is all I am asking.


OK, you said 'one'. (exact words, Greg Big Grin )

http://www.princeton.edu/admis...ion/faq/eligibility/

Is it possible to transfer to Princeton from another college or university?

No. At this time, Princeton is not able to offer transfer admission. Any student who has graduated from secondary school and enrolled as a full-time degree candidate at another college or university is considered a transfer applicant and isn't eligible for undergraduate admission.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
AntzDad,

Cute, but irrelevant.

Schools that accept no transfers of any kind can't really be used to show that JUCO's are treated as second class institutions.

After all, your example could be turned around to show that Princeton treats JUCO students exactly the same as they treat Harvard and Yale students.

Besides, ClevelandDad's first post acknowledged that some Ivies don't take JUCO transfers, so don't let a subsequent poster's comment over-state his point.

We all know there are a number of socially elite schools, the ones whose rosters are populated by graduates of prestigious prep schools, where you're extremely unlikely to find any or many JUCO transfers. That's not what this thread is about.

If you go back to the top of this thread you'll see that ClevelandDad's point was to challenge the common perception that vast swaths of the educational landscape are off limits to JUCO students.
Last edited by Swampboy
CollegeParentNoMoreCollegeParentNoMore1,000+ posts
quote:
I'm not suggesting all courses at all JUCOs are in this basket, but I do think enough might be that a blanket statement suggesting that like-named courses are the same at JUCOs vs. 4-year schools might be a bit of a stretch, IMHO.


For the most part I'd have to disagree based upon my experience (JC). Lower division classes that can be transferred to the UCs and CA state colleges are pretty much the same. They use the same book etc and are approved by the UCs and State colleges for transfer. In the progression courses its not possible to take a less then complete course, such as acct 1a and then be able to move onto acct 1b and then intermediate accounting etc. without failing at some point and brining a great deal of bad publicity for a JC. During my stay at a four year school there was no apparent differnce between JC transfers and non-transfer students in the business program.

My wife went to UCB and took chem 1a with 900 other students.......

It doesn't really matter whether the school is a JC or Duke, the value the student gets from the classes they take is directly related to what they try to make of the opportunity.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
If you go back to the top of this thread you'll see that ClevelandDad's point was to challenge the common perception that vast swaths of the educational landscape are off limits to JUCO students.


I can read. This is what is posted at the top of the thread.

"I need specifics here. I don't want people's opinions as to who does and does not accept them. Either post literature from a respective school's webpage that they specifically do not accept JUCO's or post first-hand experience."

I guess you've never seen 'The Brady Bunch'. Cleveland Dad asked for one example. I gave him one.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
My question is are you aware of one institution that will not accept a JUCO student as a transfer? Name one institution, that is all I am asking.


OK, you said 'one'. (exact words, Greg Big Grin )

http://www.princeton.edu/admis...ion/faq/eligibility/

Is it possible to transfer to Princeton from another college or university?

No. At this time, Princeton is not able to offer transfer admission. Any student who has graduated from secondary school and enrolled as a full-time degree candidate at another college or university is considered a transfer applicant and isn't eligible for undergraduate admission.


If a student receives a 2 year degree from a JUCO, they aren't considered a transfer are they?
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
I believe you're changing the semantics from my original statements. It's not a matter of what schools do not accept JuCo transfers. It's a matter of it being unlikely. Then there's the issue of acceptance of transfer credits. Unless you've lived in New England and been exposed to the elitist academic attitude of the region it would be hard to grasp. There is such an elitist attitude there are many four year schools who look down their noses at other four year colleges. So imagine what they think of community colleges.
Last edited by RJM
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:


I can read. This is what is posted at the top of the thread.

"I need specifics here. I don't want people's opinions as to who does and does not accept them. Either post literature from a respective school's webpage that they specifically do not accept JUCO's or post first-hand experience."

I guess you've never seen 'The Brady Bunch'. Cleveland Dad asked for one example. I gave him one.



AntzDad,

Doesn't really matter if you can read or not. If you keep reading selectively and inaccurately, you're no better off than someone who can't read at all.

Your answer totally ignored my main point, which is that CD started this thread by acknowledging that some Ivies don't take kids from JUCO's.

So you found one school that doesn't take transfers from anywhere, and you think you've found a school that specifically excludes JUCO students and proved CD wrong?


Let me explain this for you.

A school that doesn't accept any transfers from anywhere doesn't "specifically exclude JUCO students" any more than a restaurant that is closed specifically excludes blacks. To make your case, you need to find a school that actually does "specfically" exclude JUCO's. Hint: it actually has to say it takes some students but not those from JUCO's. That's the difference between a general exclusion and a specific one.

Sorry if I'm coming across as condescending, but you've proven yourself to be the sort of fellow who needs thorough explanations.

And I have no clue what your Brady Bunch reference means.
Last edited by Swampboy
3rdgenerationnation3rdgenerationnation100+ posts
As a practical matter there are many schools that while they don't have rules against accecpting JUCO transfers just don't do it. As an example check Williams Collge to see how many students enrolling were transfer from Jr. college? Swarthmore, Haverford, Weaton, Clark, I don't know but I'd be willing to bet they don't have a handful of JUCO transfers each year.

Sometimes it can be as RJM is saying; the school believes a course at MIT is not the same as a course taken at a CC. Other times it might be a simple as using all the spots available for someone that is going to pay the schools price for four years.

What I've come to belive is that with the elite academic schools the hardest part is getting in. They just are not throwing the doors open for JUCO kids.
Last edited by 3rdgenerationnation
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
OK, Stanford accepts transfers and these can be from a JC. But anybody who thinks going to a JC/CC is a reasonable path for entry to Stanford should read:
Transfer Admissions

If we're thinking of baseball players specifically (some of whom do get significant preference in Stanford admissions), take a look at the roster for the past few years.

It's possible, but..... it ain't happenin'

Look, some schools welcome JC tranfers, especially into athletic programs. Others are less welcoming. Some almost never admit them.
California UC system school must admit the more qualified California CC students, by law or policy. (I'm not sure which.)

So what? What's the point of this thread? I guess it just that Cleveland Dad won't accept anything other than documented proof of an ironclad policy against it. Otherwise he thinks that JC transfers are welcome? Is that it?
N Notlongtilicantcatchim100+ posts
In our search, we are looking at the merits of all options.

At the same time, I went across to College Board and looked at the entrance qualifications at admissions for a few schools both JUCO and D1. I can believe that the books are the same in the courses and the course material is the same.

For example though, at the JUCO 2, I see that 80% of the freshman class had a GPA less than 3.0. At the D1, 75% of the freshman class had a GPA greater than 3.5. I would guess that the testing in both places has to be different for both places to arrive at the magical bell curve average of 67% after first year. Maybe one place has 70% mulitple choice on the final, etc.

These were real numbers from north-eastern schools and I am pretty sure a D1 admissions office would really be questioning the relativity of the marks being submitted in their local area.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
I believe you're changing the semantics from my original statements. It's not a matter of what schools do not accept JuCo transfers. It's a matter of it being unlikely. Then there's the issue of acceptance of transfer credits. Unless you've lived in New England and been exposed to the elitist academic attitude of the region it would be hard to grasp. There is such an elitist attitude there are many four year schools who look down their noses at other four year colleges. So imagine what they think of community colleges.

Here is the WHOLE point of the thread 3FG. For years, we have been bullied around here with the notion that elite northeastern schools won't accept juco's and now when we ask the people who look down their noses at them for specifics, they go back and change the context on us. I've got news for people - it's very, very hard to get into Stanford or Harvard - whether you are from a juco or not The juco is not the issue - the academic capability of the student is however.

Let me put this another way - athletics completely aside. If you screwed off in high school but have now seen the light and have become a juco academic all-american, a school like Stanford is probably not going to overlook the high school years. The juco is not the reason for non-admittance however. On the other hand, if a student would have qualified for such an intstitution out of high school, decided to attend juco for whatever reason, excelled at the juco, my premsise is, I don't care what school we are talking about outside of Princeton, that school will not DISQUALIFY because of JUCO. Most, if not all schools, will give serious admissions credit for serious juco academic performance in addition to the normal things like high school GPA, class rank, SAT performance, etc.

Let me ask some rhetorical questions. Is Notre Dame a good academic school? How about Southern California? We can go on and on with this type of list. I ask people to watch the movie Rudy. Rudy was a screw-off in high school in addition to having some learning problems. He became motivated and used a juco to launch his ambitions at Notre Dame. My premise is, if someone like that can do it, anybody can.

The point of this thread is for the anti-juco people out there to back themselves up, and I have yet so see anybody do that.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
birdman,

Yes, it's interesting, because it is just the kind of confimation asked for. From the article
quote:
..... there won't be a huge number of students coming from community colleges. But the outreach will allow a greater diversification of the pool. "It's not a ton of outreach, but it's more then we've done before, which was zero.

Now the quote comes from 4 years ago, but this link says that the number of JC transfers in 2009 was zero.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
birdman,

Yes, it's interesting, because it is just the kind of confimation asked for. From the article
quote:
..... there won't be a huge number of students coming from community colleges. But the outreach will allow a greater diversification of the pool. "It's not a ton of outreach, but it's more then we've done before, which was zero.

Now the quote comes from 4 years ago, but this link says that the number of JC transfers in 2009 was zero.

Ok, we'll give you Swarthmore. Here's the list thus far, Princeton, Swarthmore, and the military academies. Any others?

I thought this was a simple question when I started the thread

I am guessing we could add a school like MIT to the list but I don't know that for sure. I seriously doubt however that someone that is a member here has baseball ambitions for a school like MIT regardless whether or not they could be admitted academically there however.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
The point of this thread is for the anti-juco people out there to back themselves up, and I have yet so see anybody do that.


Good post and accurate.I really believe what RJM says about elitists attitudes, and it is not just on the East Coast.Some people feel that where their sons attend college is a reflection of their success,and its a bragging right.I have to admit that I did not want my son to attend a JC at first.He did not screw up in HS and was a qualifier with good grades and pretty good SAT scores.

What really concerns me with the mentality against Junior college, is it is The parents saying their kids will NOT go there.

What if the kid wants to?He wants to have a better opportunity to play at a higher level of baseball, that he is not being recruited out of HS for.

Where does his/her dream come into account.What frightens me on here, and I am not saying that we as parents should not guide our children in their lives, but DICTATING scares me.

Your sons and daughters are 18 years old and they are adults.And I get that the parent is paying for the education,But is that the bounty over the kids head.Im paying for it so you will do it the way I want.

Maybe many have sons/daughters who just do what they are told, no matter what their own thoughts are.

I would of never dreamed my sons decision would of ended with him at a good school like he is at.That he is succeeding in the classroom at a school he would of never attended without baseball.He is a man now, and that happened because he made a decision for his life, he stood by his word and did what he needed to do.

Yes he could of failed, but there are lessons in that as well.I think the level of stress some of these parents are putting on themselves and their kids is tremendous.So much stress to get into the TOP schools,and play baseball.I worry that many may be very disapointed.

Life is way to short to be so stressed.I am so glad I dont live in an area that puts that type of pressure on my son and our family.

Different paths lead to great outcomes.I am just sort of taken back by the absolutes some people have.I am concerned for these kids.My goodness what if they dont succeed at such a high level?
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
quote:
The point of this thread is for the anti-juco people out there to back themselves up, and I have yet so see anybody do that.


Good post and accurate.I really believe what RJM says about elitists attitudes, and it is not just on the East Coast.Some people feel that where their sons attend college is a reflection of their success,and its a bragging right.I have to admit that I did not want my son to attend a JC at first.He did not screw up in HS and was a qualifier with good grades and pretty good SAT scores.

What really concerns me with the mentality against Junior college, is it is The parents saying their kids will NOT go there.

What if the kid wants to?He wants to have a better opportunity to play at a higher level of baseball, that he is not being recruited out of HS for.

Where does his/her dream come into account.What frightens me on here, and I am not saying that we as parents should not guide our children in their lives, but DICTATING scares me.

Your sons and daughters are 18 years old and they are adults.And I get that the parent is paying for the education,But is that the bounty over the kids head.Im paying for it so you will do it the way I want.

Maybe many have sons/daughters who just do what they are told, no matter what their own thoughts are.

I would of never dreamed my sons decision would of ended with him at a good school like he is at.That he is succeeding in the classroom at a school he would of never attended without baseball.He is a man now, and that happened because he made a decision for his life, he stood by his word and did what he needed to do.

Yes he could of failed, but there are lessons in that as well.I think the level of stress some of these parents are putting on themselves and their kids is tremendous.So much stress to get into the TOP schools,and play baseball.I worry that many may be very disapointed.

Life is way to short to be so stressed.I am so glad I dont live in an area that puts that type of pressure on my son and our family.

Different paths lead to great outcomes.I am just sort of taken back by the absolutes some people have.I am concerned for these kids.My goodness what if they dont succeed at such a high level?

fanofgame just hit a homerun here imho. I love methaphors
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
That was good swampboy.

I get what RJM is saying. It's just not cool to transfer from a JUCO to a 4 year school where he is from, but my question is, where do all those northern 2 year college students go to earn their degrees?
The lower end state universities (Framingham State, Keane State, etc). The higher end academic four year colleges, the one's I've said frown on JuCo transfers look down their noses at these schools.
Last edited by RJM
CollegeParentNoMoreCollegeParentNoMore1,000+ posts
Some who believe a/the JC route is never a good way to go will never change their mind until their own kid experiences it, if ever.

To those high school parents looking at their kids options, I would reiterate that going to a JC is not the kiss of "educational death" when applying to good/great 4 year schools, as some would seem to imply.

The real kiss of educational death is a student in an unhappy situation.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
Rather than debate the issue, if you haven't lived in the northeast long enough to be exposed to the attitude it's hard to understand.

Also some people post their attitudes with the assumption every discussion on this board is about a high end, in demand, major college D1 prospect. A player with high end D3 to mid major D1 prospects has a lot less leverage.

At the D3 level in the northeast I don't think the high end academic colleges would care if a potential JuCo transfer is the next coming of ARod. They're more likely to care that he went to private school for high school.

I did a random search of four NESCAC colleges. They don't list "last school" like most major college baseball programs. They list "high school." If they're taking transfers they don't want it public.
Last edited by RJM
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