quote:The real kiss of educational death is a student in an unhappy situation.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
And one that is so stressful they get sick, mentally or physically.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
And one that is so stressful they get sick, mentally or physically.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
And one that is so stressful they get sick, mentally or physically.
quote:Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:
Some who believe a/the JC route is never a good way to go will never change their mind until their own kid experiences it, if ever.
To those high school parents looking at their kids options, I would reiterate that going to a JC is not the kiss of "educational death" when applying to good/great 4 year schools, as some would seem to imply.
The real kiss of educational death is a student in an unhappy situation.
Virginia Tech is a pretty good school - eh?
Maybe justbb can comment on that as well as I believe his Dad was a professor there for many years.
I was tempted to start a thread inquiring why some posters/parents here as so pro JC. It is to the point that we have them insisting that JUCO must be considered a good option regardless of why a person might feel it is not right for their particular children.
So is it that their kids went to JC so they feel an obligation to promote it? Is it that they feel obligated in some way to defend it because others are critical of JC's for whatever reason(real or imagined)?
If their kids never went to JC's there must be some other motivation because I do not see other groups of posters defending D1's, NAIA or any other institutional group as a whole.
Special note - Just because I ask this question, do not involve me personally in this discussion. I only ask out of curiosity and do not want to be drawn into a discussion about the pro or cons of a JC for my sons situation.
TIA
So is it that their kids went to JC so they feel an obligation to promote it? Is it that they feel obligated in some way to defend it because others are critical of JC's for whatever reason(real or imagined)?
If their kids never went to JC's there must be some other motivation because I do not see other groups of posters defending D1's, NAIA or any other institutional group as a whole.
Special note - Just because I ask this question, do not involve me personally in this discussion. I only ask out of curiosity and do not want to be drawn into a discussion about the pro or cons of a JC for my sons situation.
TIA
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
What if the kid wants to?He wants to have a better opportunity to play at a higher level of baseball, that he is not being recruited out of HS for.
There are twenty-four schools within thirty minutes (20 miles, or so) of my house.
As far as "JUCO" transfers on baseball rosters, here's what I found:
DI
Penn 0
Villanova 1
LaSalle 0
St. Joseph's 0
Temple 1
Drexel (club)
DII (PSAC)
Cheyney (no baseball)
West Chester (2010 roster) 0
DIII
Haverford 0 (one pitcher from Israel. pretty cool.)
Swarthmore 0
Widener 0
Eastern 0
Immaculata 0
Philadelphia U 0
Neumann 0
Arcadia 0
Gwynedd Mercy 0 (2010 roster)
Penn State-Abington N/A (2+2 school)
Cabrini (club)
Ursinus (couldn't find roster)
Rosemont (no baseball)
Bryn Mawr (no men)
JUCO
Harcum Jr College (no baseball)
Valley Forge Military Academy and JC (no JC baseball, *Success Story*- Arizona WR Larry Fitzgerald played football here as a post graduate.)
As far as 'baseball transfers', overall:
Temple 5 (one from Duquesne, one from Canada(?), in Cali))
Villanova 3
Haverford 1 (USC)
The Rest 0
Sorry, if I missed anybody.
You all decide how good these schools are. You all decide how good these schools' baseball teams are.
I am trying to think how someone on this board would have the ability to name a large number of schools that do not take JUCO transfers.
I actually copied out a bunch of rosters to watch how they changed over the years. Of those I was able to determine that the following schools in fact do have JUCO’s on their roster:
Binghamton
Western Kentucky
Eastern Michigan
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Illinois State
Miami (OH)
Wayne State (MI)
Ball State
University of Tennessee
University of Virginia
In my previous post, the D1 I was referring to was Binghamton. Still, with 75% of their kids above a 3.5, how are they justifying bringing in a kid and giving him full credits for courses that he successfully completed. He got that credit against competition that was nowhere near (probably wouldn’t be in the bottom 10%) what he would have been facing if he had actually done those credits at Binghamton. As an example, Calculus is not Calculus when you are in a school that is a top flight engineering school. I recall a guy who wanted to get into our school so bad he agreed to repeat first year and was more than 10% lower the second time through – barely passed!
In a way, I sense you are right that NE schools are taking JUCO transfers however; it wouldn’t surprise me in the least that some just don’t whether they say so or not.
I must add that there were two or three schools closer to the coast; and it’s hard to tell from the way they list their rosters; but they look like they don’t have any JUCO Transfers. The schools read like Preps and High Schools.
I actually copied out a bunch of rosters to watch how they changed over the years. Of those I was able to determine that the following schools in fact do have JUCO’s on their roster:
Binghamton
Western Kentucky
Eastern Michigan
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Illinois State
Miami (OH)
Wayne State (MI)
Ball State
University of Tennessee
University of Virginia
In my previous post, the D1 I was referring to was Binghamton. Still, with 75% of their kids above a 3.5, how are they justifying bringing in a kid and giving him full credits for courses that he successfully completed. He got that credit against competition that was nowhere near (probably wouldn’t be in the bottom 10%) what he would have been facing if he had actually done those credits at Binghamton. As an example, Calculus is not Calculus when you are in a school that is a top flight engineering school. I recall a guy who wanted to get into our school so bad he agreed to repeat first year and was more than 10% lower the second time through – barely passed!
In a way, I sense you are right that NE schools are taking JUCO transfers however; it wouldn’t surprise me in the least that some just don’t whether they say so or not.
I must add that there were two or three schools closer to the coast; and it’s hard to tell from the way they list their rosters; but they look like they don’t have any JUCO Transfers. The schools read like Preps and High Schools.
I am on record as being a big fan of the Juco option. I went myself (my folks never went to college and didn't have much money), transferred to a four year school where I earned my Bachelors (3.8 GPA); several years later I went on to earn my Master's.
My oldest just transferred from a Juco and is now playing ball at a well-regarded D2 in CD country. For him, it was an option where he could prove he could get it done academically (3.7 GPA last we checked) and athletically and he found a place where they wanted him.
My youngest decided on the same Juco (no longer in the game, though), and already has designs on the four year school he ultimately wants to attend. That university, incidentally, has a top ten rated business school and clearly publicizes its requirements for prospective transfers. He's 18, of course, so I imagine his designs on a degree will probably change once or twice more before he finishes his undergraduate work. Still, he has a plan.
I guess my point is that you get out of it what you put in to it. For us, it worked, but it isn't for everyone.
My oldest just transferred from a Juco and is now playing ball at a well-regarded D2 in CD country. For him, it was an option where he could prove he could get it done academically (3.7 GPA last we checked) and athletically and he found a place where they wanted him.
My youngest decided on the same Juco (no longer in the game, though), and already has designs on the four year school he ultimately wants to attend. That university, incidentally, has a top ten rated business school and clearly publicizes its requirements for prospective transfers. He's 18, of course, so I imagine his designs on a degree will probably change once or twice more before he finishes his undergraduate work. Still, he has a plan.
I guess my point is that you get out of it what you put in to it. For us, it worked, but it isn't for everyone.
I could give a pretty good argument why a very bright kid who doesnt have a lot of funds behind him might go JUCO.
Lets say he wants to go into medicine. Go to a strong JUCO and get two years of credits at a lower cost and (TELL ME I'M RIGHT HERE) no loss of eligibility at a D1. Now continue to do four years on scholarship.
Lets say he wants to go into medicine. Go to a strong JUCO and get two years of credits at a lower cost and (TELL ME I'M RIGHT HERE) no loss of eligibility at a D1. Now continue to do four years on scholarship.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
What if the kid wants to?He wants to have a better opportunity to play at a higher level of baseball, that he is not being recruited out of HS for.
There are twenty schools within thirty minutes (20 miles, or so) of my house.
As far as "JUCO" transfers on baseball rosters, here's what I found:
DI
Penn 0
Villanova 1
LaSalle 0
St. Joseph's 0
Temple 1
Drexel (club)
DII (PSAC)
Cheyney (no baseball)
West Chester (2010 roster) 0
DIII
Haverford 0 (one pitcher from Israel. pretty cool.)
Swarthmore 0
Widener 0
Eastern 0
Immaculata 0
Philadelphia U 0
Cabrini (club)
Ursinus (couldn't find roster)
Rosemont (no baseball)
Bryn Mawr (no men)
JUCO
Harcum Jr College (no baseball)
Valley Forge Military Academy and JC (no JC baseball, *Success Story*- Arizona WR Larry Fitzgerald played football here as a post graduate.)
As far as 'baseball transfers', overall:
Temple 5 (one from Duquesne, one from Canada(?), in Cali))
Villanova 3
Haverford 1 (USC)
The Rest 0
Sorry, if I missed anybody.
You all decide how good these schools are. You all decide how good these schools' baseball teams are.
AntzDad - good stuff but the analysis doesn't stop there at the roster. Some coaches do not recruit JUCO's because of their athletic philosophies i.e., they would rather develop players themselves for the full four years. The DIII's you mention under Haverford are indeed elite. Not sure if you can tell by looking at those rosters if they in fact (the colleges themselves) accept JUCO transfers.
Notlong - I went to a juco and was accepted into some top engineering schools like Case & Western Reserve for example - an academic D3 here in Cleveland. I competed with my four year classmates just fine in engineering school. This is all about how bad does the student want to achieve things. For the motivated student, all things are possible including success at elite academic institutions. I believe the movie Rudy, although corny on some levels, demonstrates what I am trying to say pretty well.
quote:Originally posted by Notlongtilicantcatchim:
I could give a pretty good argument why a very bright kid who doesnt have a lot of funds behind him might go JUCO.
Lets say he wants to go into medicine. Go to a strong JUCO and get two years of credits at a lower cost and (TELL ME I'M RIGHT HERE) no loss of eligibility at a D1. Now continue to do four years on scholarship.
You are 100% correct.
quote:Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:
I guess my point is that you get out of it what you put in to it. For us, it worked, but it isn't for everyone.
Bingo!
quote:Originally posted by Vector:
I was tempted to start a thread inquiring why some posters/parents here as so pro JC. It is to the point that we have them insisting that JUCO must be considered a good option regardless of why a person might feel it is not right for their particular children.
So is it that their kids went to JC so they feel an obligation to promote it? Is it that they feel obligated in some way to defend it because others are critical of JC's for whatever reason(real or imagined)?
If their kids never went to JC's there must be some other motivation because I do not see other groups of posters defending D1's, NAIA or any other institutional group as a whole.
Special note - Just because I ask this question, do not involve me personally in this discussion. I only ask out of curiosity and do not want to be drawn into a discussion about the pro or cons of a JC for my sons situation.
TIA
Those are fair questions. The reason for the "defense" is people are often taking pot-shots at them - either directly or impliedly. Those shots are fired in ignorance imho.
quote:If their kids never went to JC's there must be some other motivation because I do not see other groups of posters defending D1's, NAIA or any other institutional group as a whole
Vector, just want to use this excerpt.Understand your decision for your own son.I think if you go back and read many, many threads and posts, many people that come on this site want D1 or bust.Then many say that their sons are not being recruited by D1.
So then many say maybe go to a D3,D2 for a year and leave???Got to sit out a year.Transfer rules dont permit that.
So then when somebody mentions JC ball they say "my son will never go to a JC".
So then what other option is there if baseball is the deciding factor.
If education is the top priority and posters sons have great GPA, then go to a top academic school and walk on.
Then your at a great educational school and if baseball doesn;t work out, then peoples sons will get a great education.
Problem as I see it is many dont know if their sons will make the baseball team so they dont want to do that.
Kind of a like being between a rock and a hard place.
Personally for me I really dont care if their sons go to a JUCO.What offends posters on here is coming on here and saying
This is a made up sample of what many of us have read 1,000 times
Hi,my son is a JR,(or Sr)in HS.he has a 4.2 GPA and great SATS.He is not being recruited and he wants to play D1 baseball at a top academic school.He isnt big enough, he doesnt throw hard enough, he isnt fast enough, etc etc etc.He really wants to play D1 baseball.
So posters repond: How about going to a JUCO
Parent replies:my son WILL not go to a JUCO
So thats where the frustration is for me.
Walk on and take your licks.
ClevelandDad
Completely agree on the "how bad you want it" front. I'm just saying some of that "how bad you want it" has to show up in the grades and rankings at the JUCO, as well. In others words, I pulled a 95% in my Physics course and against the best of the best, my effort would have still seen me get at least a 90%.
I believe that 85% of the guys in my son's program go JUCO. A number of them move across to D1 afterwards.
I am hoping to get my son down your way this summer (Kent State)...
Completely agree on the "how bad you want it" front. I'm just saying some of that "how bad you want it" has to show up in the grades and rankings at the JUCO, as well. In others words, I pulled a 95% in my Physics course and against the best of the best, my effort would have still seen me get at least a 90%.
I believe that 85% of the guys in my son's program go JUCO. A number of them move across to D1 afterwards.
I am hoping to get my son down your way this summer (Kent State)...
quote:Originally posted by Notlongtilicantcatchim:
I am hoping to get my son down your way this summer (Kent State)...
They are a fine program. Very well coached and I believe PG knows them well so you might want to get his take. They are good at sending players to the next level as well. Good stuff.
It's a little off topic but, they were'nt on my radar until a few weeks back. Then it dawned on me to start copying the bios of great pitching coaches into my database - guys that can do exactly what you say - send them to the next level. They moved from somewhere in the 40's in my follows to Top 10. I spent a good bit of time last week finding a half dozen or so other gems. It's surprising how many of the perhaps bigger name schools do not have similar records.
Back on-topic, I am going to go through a similar process with JUCO's... thinking about it as I sit here...
Back on-topic, I am going to go through a similar process with JUCO's... thinking about it as I sit here...
quote:So is it that their kids went to JC so they feel an obligation to promote it? Is it that they feel obligated in some way to defend it because others are critical of JC's for whatever reason(real or imagined)?
How often do you read "my senior son who is a great student wants to play D1 baseball but no coach has called him or shown any significant interest." I could reply "wakeup! your son is probebely not a D1 caliber player at this point in his life and should move on!", or I could suggest another apparently unpopular path that may give their son another opportunity to impress the D1 coaches that are currently ignoring him.
My son was in that same boat 6 years ago, and we didn't consider JCs for a minute, my mistake and I am willing to offer the benefit of my experience, which ultimatly may not benefit the OP today, but might benefit them later or might benefit another reader.
I am curious about another bit of comparative information. I get the impression that about 50-70% of the kids who start at a D1 dont continue on and finish their degree there. That could be for a lot of reasons. Some guys are in over their heads. Some want playing time right away (I think my son would gladly red shirt for that Kent State coach) and dont get it. Some get in over their heads academically. I followed quite a few guys though and it looked like 70% didn't stick. There are bad consequences when that happens and I have to think those consequences might even be more expensive than the scholarship itself.
If you work the JUCO right and plan your transferrable credits, I get the sense that the probabilities of success (finish your two years or move on to a four year) might be higher. Even if things go bad, it's still only one year to walk off with a piece of paper. What percentage of JUCO kids finish what they started?
If you work the JUCO right and plan your transferrable credits, I get the sense that the probabilities of success (finish your two years or move on to a four year) might be higher. Even if things go bad, it's still only one year to walk off with a piece of paper. What percentage of JUCO kids finish what they started?
quote:If you work the JUCO right and plan your transferrable credits, I get the sense that the probabilities of success (finish your two years or move on to a four year) might be higher. Even if things go bad, it's still only one year to walk off with a piece of paper. What percentage of JUCO kids finish what they started?
Great question for which I don't have the stats for but...
I started this thread for the subject of academics alone. My daughter is enrolled in JUCO full time and she is but a junior in high school. Thus, she will have two years of college completed before she has graduated from high school at zero cost to our family. She wants to be a pharmacist which is essentially a 6 year program. Now, it is a four year program for our family. I believe people have to be nuts not to consider the juco route. For those that can afford things, some of the economic issues are probably moot however.
Responding back to Vector - at the end of the day, each family obviously has to make a personal decision that is best for themselves. Message boards cannot make those decisions no matter how eloquent the arguments.
"I went to a juco and was accepted into some top engineering schools like Case & Western Reserve for example - an academic D3 here in Cleveland."
There's no doubt Case Western is a very good D3. But what you are fighting and failing to recognize is the northeast elite academic attitude. As one person PM'ed me (I won't out him) he believes this attitude is pervasive in the northeast in terms of getting into grad schools and even employment.
My son has been accepted to some good schools on academics. I would have no problem with him attending any of them. One is a Big Ten school (doubt he could walk on there). But they're not the level of schools he could have got into if not for his baseball injuries. I don't expect him to be able to transfer into these more elite schools even if it's from one of the good four year colleges he has been accepted.
There's no doubt Case Western is a very good D3. But what you are fighting and failing to recognize is the northeast elite academic attitude. As one person PM'ed me (I won't out him) he believes this attitude is pervasive in the northeast in terms of getting into grad schools and even employment.
My son has been accepted to some good schools on academics. I would have no problem with him attending any of them. One is a Big Ten school (doubt he could walk on there). But they're not the level of schools he could have got into if not for his baseball injuries. I don't expect him to be able to transfer into these more elite schools even if it's from one of the good four year colleges he has been accepted.
AntzDad,
Your list of mostly D3's and private schools without JUCO transfers on their rosters is irrelevant to the discussion.
Try to remember why we're talking about this.
This is a baseball site.
The question of going to a JUCO arises here about every week almost always in the context of players who want to play D1 but are either not academically eligible or not being recruited as ball players.
ClevelandDad started this thread because people whose sons are in one of these situations often ask for advice but dismiss out of hand the possibility of JUCO's being part of the plan for their sons' pursuit of their educational and baseball goals.
In this context, it's irrelevant whether JUCO adequately prepares students for Swarthmore because nobody who can play baseball at a JUCO is dreaming of the chance of one day earning baseball glory at a D3.
It's also irrelevant to point out that schools like Haverford don't have any JUCO transfers on their rosters because they barely have any public school graduates in the first place. Unless you attend a prestigious prep or a highly regarded public school in a wealthy suburb, the door for attending Haverford closes long before you contemplate attending a JUCO--like about the time your granddaddy didn't prep at St. Albans.
Your list also ignores the factor of cost. Money is an issue for almost anyone attending a JUCO. Most baseball playing JUCO students contemplating transfers to 4-year schools look first at public universities in their state because that's where they're most likely to find better baseball, lower costs, and fully funded athletic scholarship programs. A big part of the reason your schools don't have JUCO transfers is that JUCO students are deterred by the cost and never consider applying to them.
In light of all this, the absence of JUCO players at the schools you list reveals nothing useful about either the admission policies of these schools with respect to JUCO transfers or the quality of a JUCO's academic preparation.
Your list of mostly D3's and private schools without JUCO transfers on their rosters is irrelevant to the discussion.
Try to remember why we're talking about this.
This is a baseball site.
The question of going to a JUCO arises here about every week almost always in the context of players who want to play D1 but are either not academically eligible or not being recruited as ball players.
ClevelandDad started this thread because people whose sons are in one of these situations often ask for advice but dismiss out of hand the possibility of JUCO's being part of the plan for their sons' pursuit of their educational and baseball goals.
In this context, it's irrelevant whether JUCO adequately prepares students for Swarthmore because nobody who can play baseball at a JUCO is dreaming of the chance of one day earning baseball glory at a D3.
It's also irrelevant to point out that schools like Haverford don't have any JUCO transfers on their rosters because they barely have any public school graduates in the first place. Unless you attend a prestigious prep or a highly regarded public school in a wealthy suburb, the door for attending Haverford closes long before you contemplate attending a JUCO--like about the time your granddaddy didn't prep at St. Albans.
Your list also ignores the factor of cost. Money is an issue for almost anyone attending a JUCO. Most baseball playing JUCO students contemplating transfers to 4-year schools look first at public universities in their state because that's where they're most likely to find better baseball, lower costs, and fully funded athletic scholarship programs. A big part of the reason your schools don't have JUCO transfers is that JUCO students are deterred by the cost and never consider applying to them.
In light of all this, the absence of JUCO players at the schools you list reveals nothing useful about either the admission policies of these schools with respect to JUCO transfers or the quality of a JUCO's academic preparation.
Swamp... The conversation was not restricted to D1 schools. CD asked "what schools?" There are plenty of people on this site with kids that are D3 to mid major D1 prospects. To blow them off as not being major D1 prospects and putting down their aspirations is just as elitist as the college situations I've been discussing all along. I've also seen some JuCo ball where the players couldn't make the Swarthmore baseball team.
"never feel sorry for a man who owns his own plane" saw it in a movie once,i sure have enjoyed reading the thoughts and research you highly educated fellows have produced on the merits of baby school versus big state U.
the fact is it would be very stressful for the kid going to juco on a baseball scholly driving up in his 2011 750 BMW or hummer 2.there are good reasons for people to not go to juco, and i get it,i'm just glad we have so many choices no matter our situations to succeed.
the right choice in school is a tedious conundrum.heck, me and the misses just came home from the lottery drawing for dual language kindergarten at rosemont elementary for our 4 yr old's 1st chance at school.they only take 44 english speaking and 44 spanish speaking children.hope we get the call.
the fact is it would be very stressful for the kid going to juco on a baseball scholly driving up in his 2011 750 BMW or hummer 2.there are good reasons for people to not go to juco, and i get it,i'm just glad we have so many choices no matter our situations to succeed.
the right choice in school is a tedious conundrum.heck, me and the misses just came home from the lottery drawing for dual language kindergarten at rosemont elementary for our 4 yr old's 1st chance at school.they only take 44 english speaking and 44 spanish speaking children.hope we get the call.
RJM,
Understand what you're saying, and as a former D3 football player, I'm not disparaging D3 baseball. However, players whose baseball aspirations lead them to consider JUCO are generally hoping JUCO baseball will give them a second ride on the D1 recruiting carousel.
That's not to say that many JUCO guys don't end up at D3's, but that's not their game plan when they enroll at the JUCO.
Understand what you're saying, and as a former D3 football player, I'm not disparaging D3 baseball. However, players whose baseball aspirations lead them to consider JUCO are generally hoping JUCO baseball will give them a second ride on the D1 recruiting carousel.
That's not to say that many JUCO guys don't end up at D3's, but that's not their game plan when they enroll at the JUCO.
Swampboy - your contributions to this thread have been invaluable. You've thought of several things I had not considered when starting the thread.
I won't lie, RJM was the inspiration for the thread and he has been a good sport in his participation.
I was actually thinking of academics alone when I started the thread Swampboy but you are absolutely right, the context for the JUCO suggestions around here often involve players who want to play D1 but really are not feeling the D1 love in high school.
There is a spectrum of people and goals out there.
On one end, you have people like me where baseball is the prize and academics although important, are fitted to make baseball work. I am not talking about majoring in basketweaving here to play baseball as that is unacceptable to me.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are most concerned about academics and would like to see if they could make baseball fit somehow into their academic aspirations. Maybe their kids went to an elite high school, were stellar students, and had top SAT/ACT scores which would enable admittance into any college in the country. I was actually thinking of those types of people when starting this thread.
Consider this scenario...
Elite academic player (IVY capable academically) but not IVY capable on the baseball field due to physical maturity and development. Assume this player ultimately wants to attend an IVY or other elite school but wants to see if he can develop his baseball a bit more so that both goals could be achieved. Attends JUCO for one year and decides he really no longer wants to spend the time it takes for baseball. Still loves baseball but after one or two years at JUCO, decides baseball is no longer that important.
For this type of player, and I know there are many out there because I have been a member here for many years, I was trying to say that JUCO ought not to be a hindrance to an elite academic future. Outside of Princeton, that player still ought to be able to transfer to an IVY or a place like Haverford or Swarthmore. I am pretty sure those types of places will still accept a person who would have qualified for their respective schools out of high school but for their foray into JUCO baseball. My point is JUCO ought not to be the reason for holding anyone's academic dreams from coming true.
So far, I am not sure anyone has proven my thesis wrong in this thread outside of Princeton or the military academies.
I won't lie, RJM was the inspiration for the thread and he has been a good sport in his participation.
I was actually thinking of academics alone when I started the thread Swampboy but you are absolutely right, the context for the JUCO suggestions around here often involve players who want to play D1 but really are not feeling the D1 love in high school.
There is a spectrum of people and goals out there.
On one end, you have people like me where baseball is the prize and academics although important, are fitted to make baseball work. I am not talking about majoring in basketweaving here to play baseball as that is unacceptable to me.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are most concerned about academics and would like to see if they could make baseball fit somehow into their academic aspirations. Maybe their kids went to an elite high school, were stellar students, and had top SAT/ACT scores which would enable admittance into any college in the country. I was actually thinking of those types of people when starting this thread.
Consider this scenario...
Elite academic player (IVY capable academically) but not IVY capable on the baseball field due to physical maturity and development. Assume this player ultimately wants to attend an IVY or other elite school but wants to see if he can develop his baseball a bit more so that both goals could be achieved. Attends JUCO for one year and decides he really no longer wants to spend the time it takes for baseball. Still loves baseball but after one or two years at JUCO, decides baseball is no longer that important.
For this type of player, and I know there are many out there because I have been a member here for many years, I was trying to say that JUCO ought not to be a hindrance to an elite academic future. Outside of Princeton, that player still ought to be able to transfer to an IVY or a place like Haverford or Swarthmore. I am pretty sure those types of places will still accept a person who would have qualified for their respective schools out of high school but for their foray into JUCO baseball. My point is JUCO ought not to be the reason for holding anyone's academic dreams from coming true.
So far, I am not sure anyone has proven my thesis wrong in this thread outside of Princeton or the military academies.
Interesting scenario, CD.
I hadn't thought of people in that situation, and I'm not sure how I'd advise them.
There are many times more "Ivy capable" students out there than the Ivy League can accept.
Getting into those schools at any stage of one's education is a low probability event, even those with top GPA's and SAT's.
People who truly aspire to get into these schools should reconcile themselves to the costs, including baseball, very early.
I hadn't thought of people in that situation, and I'm not sure how I'd advise them.
There are many times more "Ivy capable" students out there than the Ivy League can accept.
Getting into those schools at any stage of one's education is a low probability event, even those with top GPA's and SAT's.
People who truly aspire to get into these schools should reconcile themselves to the costs, including baseball, very early.
Great thread. I've really enjoyed reading every post. I just now got around to it, as the subject didn't really interest me at first. Yes, I grew up in the Northeast. I have to admit, I know alot more about JUCO after reading through this.
Here is my JUCO story....Last year, my HS senior son and I attended a Cornell vs Princeton baseball game in NJ. He wanted to see the Cornell team play in the last series of the year and get a feel for his future team & teammates. I spoke to a Cornell baseball Dad whose senior son was a JUCO transfer from California. They had flown out to see their son's last college game. The player transferred in his junior year from the JUCO to Cornell. The Dad made two points that really stuck with me. First, the Cornell academics were exponentially harder than JUCO, and that was the most difficult aspect for his son adjust to. Cornell grades on a curve, so that may have something to do with it. Second, he went straight from JUCO to D1 Ivy baseball and became a starter. So, these coaches are looking for talented baseball players & excellent students to add to their rosters. The Dad also said it was the absolute best decision (JUCO) they ever made because it gave their son time to develop and mature. Everybodys situation is different, but it worked out very well for this family.
Here is my JUCO story....Last year, my HS senior son and I attended a Cornell vs Princeton baseball game in NJ. He wanted to see the Cornell team play in the last series of the year and get a feel for his future team & teammates. I spoke to a Cornell baseball Dad whose senior son was a JUCO transfer from California. They had flown out to see their son's last college game. The player transferred in his junior year from the JUCO to Cornell. The Dad made two points that really stuck with me. First, the Cornell academics were exponentially harder than JUCO, and that was the most difficult aspect for his son adjust to. Cornell grades on a curve, so that may have something to do with it. Second, he went straight from JUCO to D1 Ivy baseball and became a starter. So, these coaches are looking for talented baseball players & excellent students to add to their rosters. The Dad also said it was the absolute best decision (JUCO) they ever made because it gave their son time to develop and mature. Everybodys situation is different, but it worked out very well for this family.
quote:Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
Here is my JUCO story....Last year, my HS senior son and I attended a Cornell vs Princeton baseball game in NJ. He wanted to see the Cornell team play in the last series of the year and get a feel for his future team & teammates. I spoke to a Cornell baseball Dad whose senior son was a JUCO transfer from California. They had flown out to see their son's last college game. The player transferred in his junior year from the JUCO to Cornell. The Dad made two points that really stuck with me. First, the Cornell academics were exponentially harder than JUCO, and that was the most difficult aspect for his son adjust to. Cornell grades on a curve, so that may have something to do with it. Second, he went straight from JUCO to D1 Ivy baseball and became a starter. So, these coaches are looking for talented baseball players & excellent students to add to their rosters. The Dad also said it was the absolute best decision (JUCO) they ever made because it gave their son time to develop and mature. Everybodys situation is different, but it worked out very well for this family.
Great story and probably is the ultimate point in this thread. JUCO may have been the enabler to an elite IVY-league education.
Think about it for a minute. Player with marginal D1 skills goes JUCO out of high school. Develops skills and continues academic progress at JUCO. As skills develop, draws attention from IVY-league school. Perhaps coach has some sway with the admissions department and gets student accepted. But for baseball/JUCO, perhaps student/player never sniffs a place like Cornell. Student graduates and is now exposed to the elite Cornell network where he goes on to be a fortune 500 CEO or Wall Street type who makes hundreds of thousands per year if not millions. Obviously, that type of stuff has not yet happened for this particular player but it is possible. All because of baseball. It's possible baseball has enabled this a player to become a multi-millionaire. Think about that for a moment before dismissing JUCO's out of hand.
quote:Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
birdman,
Yes, it's interesting, because it is just the kind of confimation asked for. From the articlequote:..... there won't be a huge number of students coming from community colleges. But the outreach will allow a greater diversification of the pool. "It's not a ton of outreach, but it's more then we've done before, which was zero.
Now the quote comes from 4 years ago, but this link says that the number of JC transfers in 2009 was zero.
A little late in responding and maybe at this point mute, but you sure can skew information when you choose to. "The link" you use is for the Enginering school only. See my link below for more accurate information. Last years stats are 112 applied, 23 accepted, 12 attended.
http://www.enotes.com/swarthmore-college-guide
Not huge numbers, and probably not a lot from JUCO's, but they are still making an effort.
JUCOs can be a great option for athletics, cost and academics. It all depends on the kid and what he or she puts into it.
I have two problems with JUCOs for my sons (and daughter):
1. The competition at most JUCOs I have seen is very tough. It would not be a good thing to go the JUCO route and sit the bench. I would rather see them give it a shot at a 4-year school regardless of division. If you don't play at a JUCO, in most cases you are done. The risk can be high. And, even if you are a very good player, it is tough to emerge from a beginning universe of as many as 60 or more players.
2. I agree that JUCOs can satisfy important academic requirements at a low cost and offer great value. However, I also believe the full college experience has important value and that the full college experience at its best is four years at the same school. I know many will disagree with that philosophy, but we have placed major emphasis on it in our family and it has paid dividends for each of my three older children.
Thus, I see a JUCO as a fine path when the other options simply do not exist for whatever reason. (And I definitely see it as a path that can lead to spectacular success -- or quick oblivion.)
I have two problems with JUCOs for my sons (and daughter):
1. The competition at most JUCOs I have seen is very tough. It would not be a good thing to go the JUCO route and sit the bench. I would rather see them give it a shot at a 4-year school regardless of division. If you don't play at a JUCO, in most cases you are done. The risk can be high. And, even if you are a very good player, it is tough to emerge from a beginning universe of as many as 60 or more players.
2. I agree that JUCOs can satisfy important academic requirements at a low cost and offer great value. However, I also believe the full college experience has important value and that the full college experience at its best is four years at the same school. I know many will disagree with that philosophy, but we have placed major emphasis on it in our family and it has paid dividends for each of my three older children.
Thus, I see a JUCO as a fine path when the other options simply do not exist for whatever reason. (And I definitely see it as a path that can lead to spectacular success -- or quick oblivion.)
quote:There are many times more "Ivy capable" students out there than the Ivy League can accept.
And, there are many times more "D1 capable baseball players" out there than the D1 baseball league can accept.
That might have been the basis for Robert Frost's poem, "The Road Not Taken".
Not sure, but it could have been............
Most D1 baseball league teams 'admit' about 10-15 each year................
As far as Stanford goes I believe they accepted 7 JC transfers in 2011. As of a few weeks ago one of those still had a small chance of making the baseball team. However, he's a pitcher and they've returned their entire staff from last year.
If the intent is to play baseball then Stanford is not a good choice for a JC transfer throwing under 95 mph.
If the intent is to play baseball then Stanford is not a good choice for a JC transfer throwing under 95 mph.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
But for baseball/JUCO, perhaps student/player never sniffs a place like Cornell.
Something tells me there's more than baseball to this story. Whatever- good for him. He will have a bright future, regardless.
Cleveland Dad, I knew right away why you posted this topic. I knew right away who it was aimed at. I've only posted facts (whether they are relevant, or not
)I'll save my opinion for later.
CADad,
Stanford doesn't show any JC players on their Fall Roster.
They need to make a number of cuts by next week, 5-6 it appears. From what I know, the cuts are likely to be players who were cut last year, are returning and likely to be cut again, since they appear to be loaded with more talent than the previous few years.
Again, I am not aware of any JC transfer on the Stanford roster going back many years. They did have a couple of transfers from other DI programs.
I am only talking baseball and not whether Stanford accepts JC transfers within the student body.
Stanford doesn't show any JC players on their Fall Roster.
They need to make a number of cuts by next week, 5-6 it appears. From what I know, the cuts are likely to be players who were cut last year, are returning and likely to be cut again, since they appear to be loaded with more talent than the previous few years.
Again, I am not aware of any JC transfer on the Stanford roster going back many years. They did have a couple of transfers from other DI programs.
I am only talking baseball and not whether Stanford accepts JC transfers within the student body.
infielddad,
I saw the same thing and reported that earlier so I was surprised to see a newspaper article a week or more ago saying that the player had not yet been cut. I believe the article said that the final cuts would be made around the 17th. I think the player in question understands that his chances of making the team are very slim, but I still think his story is inspiring.
BTW, my at times faulty memory recalls Coach Stotz saying during the Stanford Camp that they didn't take transfers.
I saw the same thing and reported that earlier so I was surprised to see a newspaper article a week or more ago saying that the player had not yet been cut. I believe the article said that the final cuts would be made around the 17th. I think the player in question understands that his chances of making the team are very slim, but I still think his story is inspiring.
From a blog by Joe Curley for the VC Starquote:The fruits of Justin Bricker's labor have mostly been more labor.
The former Camarillo High and Oxnard College pitcher now thrives on his 20-hour days at Stanford University, where he speeds around "The Farm" from electrical engineering class to baseball practice on a
bright orange mountain bike.
"Getting here was worth the effort," said Bricker. "I love this place." It was Bricker's unrelenting endeavor at Oxnard College, from his 4.0 GPA in 115 units to his Western State Conference co-Pitcher of the Year award to his work with the Phi Theta Kappa honors society, Oxnard College math club and Ventura College's Math Engineering Science
Achievement program, that allowed him to achieve his dream of attending the Palo Alto school.
"I tried to prepare myself as much as possible," said Bricker.
It also earned him the California Community College Athletic Association's highest honor Thursday, when Bricker was named the 2010 Male State Scholar.
"It's an honor to have this achievement," said Bricker as he studied for a computer science midterm. "This shows that
anything is possible, if you're willing to use the resources available."
An admittedly unmotivated student into his matriculation at Oxnard, Bricker was pushed to challenging himself academically by a family friend, Kathy Back.
"Going into college, I was in the same boat as the majority of people that go into a community college," said Bricker. "I didn't have a background of great academic success I was really lucky to have some amazing professors and mentors."
Discovering an appreciation and aptitude for electric engineering, he developed into a scholar who, last summer, was one of just seven California Community College students to transfer to Stanford.
"To some students, it's like a light bulb that comes on," said Bricker's physics professor, Dr. H. Paul Taouk, said in August. "There's something there that excites him."
Bricker, a walk-on pitcher who has already survived a series of cuts, will find out later this month if he has made the Stanford baseball team, which will trim a 39-man roster to 35 Feb. 17.
BTW, my at times faulty memory recalls Coach Stotz saying during the Stanford Camp that they didn't take transfers.
That is a great story.He is putting his education first, got into one of the best schools in the nation and walked on.Either was the roster turns out, this kid has a very bright future.
As a coach of a Northeast JUCO, I can say that we send guys to every level of school and most have no issues...some of the private schools may not offer certain programs that a JUCO does and you may have problems with transferrable credits...we usually have no trouble with any of the NE state schools...we have guys committed and signed for fall 2011 going to Hawaii Pacific, Southern CT, Merrimack, UMASS-Boston, Keene St., Fitchburg St. so far, and each situation is slightly different, but if the process is started early enough, there are many opportunities in the NE.
CADad,
Great story. Thanks for posting it...and finding it too!
I sure admire kids with that type of energy, desire and dedication. Little doubt that an EE degree from Stanford will get him on plenty of rosters in the future, even if one isn't baseball.
Seems odd Stanford would not list him on their Fall Roster when they have kids listed who were cut last year and likely will meet the same fate this year, unfortunately.
Great story. Thanks for posting it...and finding it too!
I sure admire kids with that type of energy, desire and dedication. Little doubt that an EE degree from Stanford will get him on plenty of rosters in the future, even if one isn't baseball.
Seems odd Stanford would not list him on their Fall Roster when they have kids listed who were cut last year and likely will meet the same fate this year, unfortunately.
I haven't read every post in this thread, but I don't believe this has been pointed out regarding transferring to your more "elite" colleges from the JUCO route. When you're talking about a very expensive private school I would suspect you should factor in the cost of expense and expect to have fewer JUCO transfers than say a state U. Many students chose the JUCO route because of more reasonable tuition rates. Thus if finances are a consideration as a freshman, they probably are as a junior as well. Those students aren't looking to get into so and so expensive private college. There are many angles to consider when looking at situations like this.
ok here it goes. my 1st post on this thread was meant as comic relief,i am a big supporter of junior college,and our story goes like this.our son graduated a solid "C" student out of the largest school classification in texas.i've always thought he was a great baseball player but no d1's called so he went to NCTC a division 1 juco where he got everything except meals.he played two years there and did very well baseball wise,finished with a 2.8 gpa planning to major in business admnistration.university of nebraska offered 80% for him to transfer at christmas his sophomore year,meaning he would have to leave his entire team
itching staff he just finished playing and working out with,pitchers that trusted him,shared their dreams of moving on to the next level.we talked it over and the main concern for us was him leaving his juco team' so he didn't.NU ofered the 60% his junior year and it is a spectacular school that i doubt even the northeastern sect would scrutinize.one of the finest institutions in our country (dare i say) and certainly the midwest. the whirlwind starts,he played and was drafted as a senior in 08 in 19th round, his minor league teams have reached playoffs every year and last year won the FSL championship.he was 18 hrs short of graduation after changing his major to sociology at the time he was drafted.he took 9hrs in fall of 09 and then after meeting with the department chairman and compliance officers and professors was allowed to take final hrs. through online and independant study after enrolling that spring of 2010. he completed that last semester while at yankee spring training.the long and the short is he's a professional baseball player with a college degree.and no matter how his playing carreer turns out he will always have a job teaching,and not just baseball.i was hesitant to tell a little of his story because it sounds like bragging.ihope ya'll dont feel that i am.Junior college is the vehicle he used to make his dreams come true.huskers had alot to do with it too. GOOOOOO BIG RED
itching staff he just finished playing and working out with,pitchers that trusted him,shared their dreams of moving on to the next level.we talked it over and the main concern for us was him leaving his juco team' so he didn't.NU ofered the 60% his junior year and it is a spectacular school that i doubt even the northeastern sect would scrutinize.one of the finest institutions in our country (dare i say) and certainly the midwest. the whirlwind starts,he played and was drafted as a senior in 08 in 19th round, his minor league teams have reached playoffs every year and last year won the FSL championship.he was 18 hrs short of graduation after changing his major to sociology at the time he was drafted.he took 9hrs in fall of 09 and then after meeting with the department chairman and compliance officers and professors was allowed to take final hrs. through online and independant study after enrolling that spring of 2010. he completed that last semester while at yankee spring training.the long and the short is he's a professional baseball player with a college degree.and no matter how his playing carreer turns out he will always have a job teaching,and not just baseball.i was hesitant to tell a little of his story because it sounds like bragging.ihope ya'll dont feel that i am.Junior college is the vehicle he used to make his dreams come true.huskers had alot to do with it too. GOOOOOO BIG RED
rabe62,
Thank you for your story, I think your son's journey shows the point trying to be made.
In other words, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Hope that your son has a great season!
TPM
Thank you for your story, I think your son's journey shows the point trying to be made.
In other words, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Hope that your son has a great season!
TPM