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Who's great, the players or the coach?

FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Like the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg, did you ever wonder when you were watching a great team of which came first the great players or the great coach? Do great players make the coach look good or does a great coach make the players look good. Of course it is a "combination of both” but that is a misleading because I say an un-coached team of great ballplayers will dominate an average team no matter who coaches them. Sorry coaches I have to give the credit to the players. As far back as “T” ball the coach that could lure the best players to their team was regarded as the “best” coach. Look at college baseball. Whenever a new coach comes in his first act is to replace the lineup. He’s given a “grace period” until he can get “his” players recruited and into the lineup. Some coaches will make immediate and massive cuts to the existing roster. I see this as recruiting talent, not developing talent. When my son was playing 18u ball the head coach was called the manager. He had coaches under him that coached the team but his job (as I saw it), was recruiting the best talent he could find and putting that talent on the field. I thought this was a very honest approach to success. They were, and continue to be VERY successful.
Do showcases tend to follow the same pattern? I say they also have to recruit the greatest players to be sucessful. I have no way of knowing but I would tend to believe the best prospects in the nation are hand picked and will be the first to get invited to showcases. If they can get them to come they have overcome a great obstacle because the masses will follow. So is it the promoters or the players that are the most important? Again, I know it's both but like the great teams I give the nod to the players.
What's the old saying you can't make chicken salad out of chicken doo doo.
Fungo
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TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Fungo

I think it all goes hand in hand--- a good coach/manager needs to good players to show what he can do but the good manager can also get players to "jell" and become a winning team.

As for showcases you get the good talent on the feild and the coaches will attend but if the coaches do not attend you don't get the good players

It is a two way street in both cases

Baseballdad

The jockey may not carry the horse across the finish line but it is fact that certaion jockeys are more skilled than others and they get to ride the champion horses

Either way I see it as a two way street
L lafmom5,000+ posts
As I've voiced before, I think coaches often do not get the credit that they deserve for developing players. It would be rare to have a team of "studs" that didn't need a coach in some capacity to help them perform their best.

My own young man told me last evening that his coach "expects us to be men" and "has taught me a lot about baseball already mom, but is teaching me how to be a man". Priceless comments!!!!!!!! Who our players are off the field affects their performance on the field and vice versa.

With that said, a good player can also help a good coach look even better. I think I would compare it to the catcher/pitcher relationship. It's music to me to watch good ones perform together - same goes for good players/good coach. "Sweet" combination!
Last edited by lafmom
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Fungo,

You sure do start some great topics. This kind of goes hand and hand with the other topic regarding luck.

IMO – At the high school level, players (talent) are most responsible for winning. This is not to down play the coach because the coach is vitally important and can get the most out of the players. There are some great high school coaches who don’t win enough because of lack of talent.

At the professional level, players (talent) is even more important than any other level, but once again managers and coaches can get the most out of that talent. Most important is making sure you don’t get the least out of players.

At the college level, IMO it’s all about the coaching staff! Of course, talent plays the most important role at any given time, but the college coach is responsible for finding, recruiting and developing that talent. I am a firm believer that the very best college coaches can go anywhere and win! No matter who plays for them… they will have talent and… They will win!
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
PGstaffs comments got me thinking. In college team chemistry is very important and plays a larger role in success than high school. The coaching staff sets the tone for the teams "personality" by putting the best line-up on the field, discipline and team building. The range of talent is much narrower in college than high school, therefore coaching is the wild card in college.

My comment about major league baseball is related to my opinion that the range of talent again widens at that level tilting the balance for success back to the players. See MLB salary structure for players v. managers.

For the most part success at the youth level is talent related. League championships are won or lost at the Little League Draft.
Last edited by Dad04
Coach MercCoach Merc1,000+ posts
This is an interesting thought. Having been an assistant HS coach for 10 years, I have often said that my boss is responsible for 1-3 wins a year when he just out coaches another. What I mean here is, it's his philosophies that often make the difference. He plays small ball constantly and he has proven time and time again that even the better teams have trouble defending the bunt and run game. Always having a runner in scoring position puts plenty of pressure on the opposition.

It's just an obeservation but it's funny to have him come to a summer travel league game and ask what it's like to coach teams that have so much talent. Meaning 9+ kids that can all play and I'm sure everyone bats in the top 5 spots in his respective school line-up. duel

There is no replacing talent nor fundamentals taught by a good coach.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Do showcases tend to follow the same pattern? I say they also have to recruit the greatest players to be sucessful. I have no way of knowing but I would tend to believe the best prospects in the nation are hand picked and will be the first to get invited to showcases. If they can get them to come they have overcome a great obstacle because the masses will follow. So is it the promoters or the players that are the most important? Again, I know it's both but like the great teams I give the nod to the players.

In this case - It is 100% the players are most important. Often people claim (falsely) that we rank those who attend PG higher than others. Truth is more what Fungo mentions... We have many of those players ranked highly and then they attend. People seem to forget that these players were very good before they attended a specific showcase.

We really aren't that important, without talent what is there?
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
I'd side with the line of thought that the great players come first, and have to. While a great coach will be able to develop average players into better than average, and good players into very good players, a team really excels when it already has very good to great players. Yes, the coach can and should contribute to several wins per year, but I believe that our main responsibility is to motivate the players to acheive up to their ability and make sure that they not only know the fundamentals, but execute them. Great players with a good coach can acheive some wonderful things.

Our other main responsibility as coaches, at least as far as summer ball is concerned, is to make sure the players have the opportunity to compete in quality games against quality competition. Getting games against the better competition is tougher to do in high school, but there is no excuse to not compete against the best in summer. This allows the best players to truly show what they are capable of doing on the field.

It ISN'T about the coach; but it IS about the players, IMO.
W Will1,000+ posts
It always amazes me how people talk about coaches. When they win they are geniuses and when they lose they are stupid. Casey stengal was a genius with the Yankees but got dumb real quick with the 62 mets.

In high school coaches have to teach and motivate their players. they have to know how to handle losing as well as winning. there are coaches that when they are winning are one way but when things go south they change. Get down on players. they make a mistake and they bury them.

It is a fine line but successful coaches know how to walk it.
Coach MercCoach Merc1,000+ posts
Dad04,
agree 100%, we had a kid throw for us, 4 years 26-4. The problem with that thought is he only gets to pitch every 4 or 5 days. We don't have the luxury of 2 or 3 of those guys. With that thought we would be 8-16 Wink. I am still amazed that he continues to make a difference in a number of games each year.
I'd still prefer the flame thrower.
Last edited by Coach Merc
C Coachric1,000+ posts
lafmom, coach merc, pgstaff and others have made great comments IMO. Coaching on a level playing field for many years brings out the best coaches very quickly. In a high school situation where you can't recruit, you had better make a difference as a coach. In a district where the talent is pretty even, some exceptions of course, all facets of the game are important. One thing we are all forgetting here is Preparation. It is such a key in this game and it separates the good coaches from the great ones. Having a talented team go on the field unprepared can bring the same results as a lesser talented team that is extremely prepared. I attend showcases, and tournaments throughout the southeast and new england. I simply cannot believe how many travel teams have great talent, but they play an unprepared brand of baseball. Key decisions late in the game can also make a big difference in the w-l column. It has to go hand in hand. We all want talent, but if we don't have as much as the other team, we coaches ask ourselves, how will we compete with this team? If we are prepared and play well, we will be in the game. But talent, such as an exceptional pitcher can change all of our plans. Here's one for you all. I have just recently watched an 18U tournament here near Orlando. There were kids from all over the country. There were major baserunning blunders, simple fielding mistakes, not errors, coaches will know what I mean, and a pitcher throwing around 88-90 that couldn't hit the side of a barn. Bad mechanics, bad head, coach didn't seem to do much other than put him out there, then remove him after walking the house. IMO it has to be alot of both to win alot.

Coachric
T theEH1,000+ posts
PG Staff,
The
quote:
but the college coach is responsible for finding, recruiting and developing that talent.



The Development of talent starts with The T-ball, Coach pitch, minors LL,Majors LL,Select ball, Travel Teams,Paying for pitching, hitting lessons, Ect. Ect. Coaches.

The High School Coach Turns them into Young Men.

The College Coach just has to find the Developed player.

The best quote from a Tball coach I ever heard.

(The best thing about baseball is the Gum)
It sure did get there attention!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Coachric,

We have noticed the same thing at times. By the way, preparation falls under intelligence and effort.

TheEH,

Yes it’s true the start of development begins before the college coaching. However, you would be amazed by the number of extremely talented players who really don’t know how to play the game until they get to college. College coaches who don’t develop talent shouldn’t be coaching.

To say a player does not develop in college is the same as saying he will not improve past high school. There are thousands of people who could give you stories about how much their son developed in college.

When a player goes undrafted out of high school despite being well scouted and is drafted in the first round after his junior year in college… Should we think it was because of the development he received in T-Ball or at the college he attended?

Do you really think these top college programs don't care about a players development?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Sometimes after PG's posts there isn't much more to say.
As a parent of a player going into his second season, I can say son has learned more about himself, the game, development, the true meaning of being a small part of team effort in a year and a half than all the years that came before that, despite being a ranked player coming out of HS.
The best way to describe the experience for parents whose sons have not played beyond the HS level yet, you can wipe the slate clean and be prepared to start all over the day you leave HS. JMO.
Fungo,
A statement from my son the other evening while talking about college coaches. His 20 year old player point of view is that you could play for the best coach in the world, but if there is no team chemistry or talent it isn't going to fly.

The sign of a coach who is a leader, is one who teaches the responsibility to the players to be accountable for their wins, losses while also accepting responsibility himself.In other words, the really great coach does not give himself credit for a team's success, while not blaming them for their failures.
Last edited by TPM
S soxnole1,000+ posts
The coach can (and in the very top programs, does) recruit leadership, which leads to chemistry.

Dedeaux,Garrido and Martin, to name a few, have been able to stay at the top because they recruit talent laden with these traits.

This is exactly the reason that many top programs lack the success one might expect from a top recruiting class. Top rated talent without charachter does not get the job done at the college level.
FrankFFrankF1,000+ posts
No doubt that as you progress the coaching SHOULD progress and get better at each stage.

theEH, IMHO, you are right. I know of many kids who had the ability and talent, but it was never developed when they were younger and they ended up quitting and moving on to other things.

Not to toot my own horn, but when my oldest son started HS, the coach came up to me and said he bet he could tell who I coached through 14U. He pretty much got them all right.

Around our parts, the HS teams who are good usually correspond to the good 14U teams from before. I know, DUH! The point being, our HS coach was usually frustrated over the fact that even though a kid might have potential, with the limited time to get a team together, he didn't have the time to work one on one with him. He needed the kids who already knew the basics and could go from there.
Coach MercCoach Merc1,000+ posts
During a conversation with a college coach this summer hits on the direction this topic has gone. He was promoting his program to us and the fact that he develops players. He gave us the number of players drafted off his teams the last 5 years. (I think it was like 20-25). This may not be a huge number in comparison to other programs but his point was , These players were all drafted for the first time after they played in his program.

Other big programs sign larger classes because of the number of players they figure will be HS drafts' and some don't sign and then are re-drafted out of the college program. So is this the coach developing these players or just doing a great job of recruiting players? noidea
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
theEH,

Sorry, if I misunderstood your post. I do agree that many people at many levels contribute to a players development. It's just that your comments kind of excluded college coaches regarding development.

While we are handing out compliments for development, let us not forget who often is the very most important... Mom and Dad... Nobody cares more than they do!
A AParent1,000+ posts
Going around full circle to the chicken and the egg thing.

A top player may be recruited by many coaches, but he will sign with the best he can find.

The top players may be invited to many showcases but he will attend only the best run showcase with the most to offer him.

By all means the player is the most valuable thing on the field. But even top talent can use the wisdom of good coaching.

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