WHY ??

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Why, if a player is a varsity HS player would he not want to play HS ball and do his travel ball thing in the summer and fall?

Playing HS ball is part of going to HS---being the HS hero---being part of the town fabric---many memories come from this

He could be a pitcher and his coach could abuse his pitchers or try to get them to do this that are dangerous.

He could be a good hitter with a good swing and good results and despite that his coach could keep trying to change his mechanics so that they fit the coach's (usually incorrect) notion of what a good swing looks like.

I've seen both happen a fair amount.

Maybe plays other sports.

I believe the "what is best for me" mentality is replacing "what is good for the community" mentality.

Maybe this economic downturn will open parents eyes that they do not(and now can not) have to spend thousands of dollars to see their son and daughter realize a dream to play at the next level. There are honest hard working coaches within the community they live in or around with no strings attached that would help any way they could to aid in the player making the next level. Unfortunately, these parents seem to just bounce from team to team until they hear what they want (and not necessarily the truth) about their child.

More people will remember who won a state championship or an American Legion Championship that any travel championship because there is only one of these per year.

quote:

Originally posted by tigercub:
I believe the "what is best for me" mentality is replacing "what is good for the community" mentality.

I had a bad experience, so the answer (of course) is to change the whole **** system.....It's all about me.

Playing for the HS baseball team (or football, or basketball) is good for the community? What a crock.

quote:

Originally posted by dbg_fan:
Playing for the HS baseball team (or football, or basketball) is good for the community? What a crock.

You may be in the minority.

I agree that HS Baseball is good for the community and something tangible that a baseball player can participate in to create a sense of community. There are common people with a common purpose which is the essence of community. Playing HS ball should instill a sense of pride and responsibility to the player as he seeks to win for his team mates and his school and therefore his community.

This is an aspect of sports that we as parents should encourage as helps to create an environment for young men to develop and value integrity and other positive character traits.

HS sports is fun. It is recreation. It is entertainment. But you lose me at 'good for the community'. I followed HS sports when my son was in HS, but no more.

Service to others is a better example of 'good for the community', IMO.

Will Robert Stock regret skipping his senior year of high school ball? How is that different than what these others are doing?

I believe HS sports is more than just about the sport. How about teamwork, learning to work with or for someone you may not agree with,time management skills, a sense of belonging to something special. Even teams that do not have success can still offer things to these young people.

Dbg, you may not follow HS sports anymore, but that doesn't mean they do not have any meaning to others.

I stated this in the other thread. I think we as parents and adults think more about the community thing and high school memories than the kids do. I don’t think that while a player is in the midst of a championship run thinks about the community and the memories he will have 30 years from now.

I think that if a player wins a tournament at East Cobb, Fort Myers or Jupiter against the best players in the country he will enjoy those memories just as much as he would a HS state championship.

Suppose you’re a top level prospect, on your way to a Top 20 school, and you play at a small high school. For just about every game you play on the way to the state title you are by far the best player on the field and you dominate. Every once in a while you run into another top player. Is this as much of an accomplishment as playing in Jupiter and having a very good tournament and your team wins it all? I’ll take the Jupiter win.

My intent is not to bash HS baseball or what it offers. I love going to son's games and I root for him and the team just like any other team he played for. It seems here though that somehow HS baseball with your friends is a patriotic duty and travel baseball is a mercenary act. If you play on a travel team formed for one tournament maybe it is, but many teams are formed at younger ages and develop along the way just like town and high school ball.

How about the private high schools that recruit more than travel teams. These kids come from different towns and never new each other before school started.

I also stated in the other thread that I strongly disagree with any coach that tries control where a player can play. High school baseball and travel baseball should and can easily co-exist.

I guess that would depend on how humble you are. If a top prospect feels that he is too good to play with his school mates it won't matter whether they win or lose. It will be all about his personal accomplishment with his travel team. But if he is humble and loves to play the game no matter what situation he is then playing for his HS team would mean just as much.

When that top 20 player gets drafted and plays for a ****** minor league team will he be the player that wants out or be the player that wants to help improve the situation he is in? When he is no longer the best player on the team how will he like to be treated?

The old adage is that there is always someone better.

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He could be a pitcher and his coach could abuse his pitchers or try to get them to do this that are dangerous.

He could be a good hitter with a good swing and good results and despite that his coach could keep trying to change his mechanics so that they fit the coach's (usually incorrect) notion of what a good swing looks like.

Goodness....I ceratinly hope a college coach doesn't try to instruct the poor young fella.

i won't debate whether skipping hs ball is good or not. my son plays hs ball, spends the season frustrated waiting for his legion team to start. we try to encourage him to relax and enjoy both, but his competitive nature take over and he can't.....

we do however fully support his hs team and he gives 110%, it just doesn't offer the same rewards as his summer team.....

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I believe HS sports is more than just about the sport. How about teamwork, learning to work with or for someone you may not agree with,time management skills, a sense of belonging to something special. Even teams that do not have success can still offer things to these young people.

Bingo.
I'll add this:
Baseball is a team sport. Ultimately, after all the showcasing and camping and travel teaming, the player finds himself on a team. A real team, with real daily practices and opportunites for leaders to emerge and others to follow. A team where wins and losses matter but aren't solved by finding new mercenaries to come in and plug holes.....where players learn to trust teamates through good and bad.
That may sound sappy as hell....but in reality the only place you find these dynamics is in high school baseball, where its still about the team and the program not the individual.

Agree 100%

Just saw on Fox news that a whole company took a 20% pay cut to save everyone's job. Wish we had more people thinking like that.

quote:

I believe HS sports is more than just about the sport. How about teamwork, learning to work with or for someone you may not agree with,time management skills, a sense of belonging to something special. Even teams that do not have success can still offer things to these young people.

Dbg, you may not follow HS sports anymore, but that doesn't mean they do not have any meaning to others.

(Sorry for all the quoting.)

I think we can disagree agreeably. Because an event has 'meaning' does not specifically qualify that event as 'good for the community'.

In addition, sports is not the exclusive domain through which a person learns about and develops teamwork. I can list Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, Robot teams, and Ballet companies as activities my children participated in where teamwork was tantamount to success for the group.

I you accept that: Many who would not take the last cookie would take the last lifeboat. ~Mignon McLaughlin -- -- AND ---- if one agrees that college baseball has changed over the years and now the "stakes" have increased considerably, then it becomes understandable how those that play the game will "take" that last lifeboat (high school baseball) from the community in order to "survive" (get to the next level). Outside influences and marketing also factor in because there are those that are respected within the ranks of youth baseball that are promoting this.

I hate to say it but I think you and I will see a migration of players away from HS baseball. The promoters might propose it as an option for those being cut, but they have their sights set on the "stud" players and those will be the ones they eventually go after. The "stud" players will be more likely to abandon HS Baseball because of their expectations. No one can dispute that it is good to get better but a "better" baseball player might be one that "gives" to others rather than "takes" for himself.

That 15 minutes of fame keeps popping up in my head. Whether you're the "stud" on the team or you make only 1 highlight play of your HS career it must be a great feeling to walk into school and have your HS peers and teachers tell you "way to go". That seems much better than a line score on a web site

quote:

Originally posted by tigercub:
a whole company took a 20% pay cut to save everyone's job.

That is a great story. That is good for the community.

I know that around my hometown you are much more likely to find someone on the street who knows who won the state championship then someone who knows who won the WWBA in Jupiter. Heck you would probably have to tell them what the WWBA is and give them a clue about where Jupiter is!

High School sports are much more likely to be relevant to the community.

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I think that if a player wins a tournament at East Cobb, Fort Myers or Jupiter against the best players in the country he will enjoy those memories just as much as he would a HS state championship.

I agree. But the reality is that the vast majority of players do neither. Do you leave you non-state-title-contender HS team to play for a middle-of-the-pack travel team that competes against 'better' competition? Is that more memorable? Do you think anyone at your 30th HS reunion will be talking about the travel team?

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it just doesn't offer the same rewards as his summer team.....

My son realizes that the HS team isn't as talented as any of his travel teams but the satisfaction of competing successfully is still there. In some ways it is even more satisfying since there isn't a bunch of stud teammates bailing you out....

I can see both sides... My concern is when the HS guy makes some decisions that could "hurt" a player whether mentally or physically. And, I have witnessed a ton of negative reps at HS practices, pregame routines, and actual game situations.

Luckily GED10 is capable of taking care of a majority of ths, I've only intervened on one occasion. Catching one half of a DH and throwing 100(+) pitches in the second half, as a freshman.

I was not a good person to be around after that!

And... it was not intentional, it was a young inexperienced coach who does make mistakes. So far, so good this off-season, etc.

The other side, by far our summer program it 1000 X's better coached and beter staffed than any of the local 3A, 4A and 5A programs here.

But, you can't take the season off, for whatever reason I think that would have a negative impact on your projectability.

JMHO - GED10DaD
loves catchers!

quote:

Originally posted by Hawk19:
My son realizes that the HS team isn't as talented as any of his travel teams but the satisfaction of competing successfully is still there. In some ways it is even more satisfying since there isn't a bunch of stud teammates bailing you out....

absolutely....he would never dream of not playing. he's made a lot of great memories on his hs team, plus he can never replace the friendships on that team. but going 24-6 with his summer team and playing on college fields does tend to outshadow going 5-21 on your hs team. there are lessons to be learned in both scenarios and both are vital to his development......jmho!

It sure is exciting for the community to get to watch the "stud" players. Especially local players that will probably go in the draft - attendance is definitely high those years with community followers watching the scouts and their "blow dryers" at the games!

I remember when our local high school team won state and my little league son got to have his picture taken with a high school player who shared the same last name - what a treat for my son!

No doubt that travel ball is definitely more competitive and better coached. But the little leaguers don't get to go to the select games. Our local high schools sponsor a "little league" night and the stands are packed!

Our high school coaches also encourage our players to participate in a "Challenger League" - helping handicapped kids getting to play baseball. My son has wonderful memories of being involved in the program and learned a lot about being a member of the community. Those Challenger kids would also have their night at the high school ballpark - some went to high school with the players and friendships developed over the years. One of the definite pluses of my son playing high school ball.

There are a lot of families right now going through freshmen tryouts that would give their right leg for their son to get to play high school baseball.

As stated before, high school ball and select can and do coexist for good reasons! No high school program is perfect - select programs also have their ups and downs. We need both!!

Too many people are in such a hurry about the baseball process that they forget to enjoy the journey, and only focus on a desired result.

It shouldn't matter that your high school program isn't as competitive for your player. Losing games are part of baseball, so get used to it. It better prepares the player for eventual team and their own personal baseball failures that are forthcoming.

It sounds like those in favor of dismissing high school baseball may feel the time spent will hinder their careers. If you feel that, you got a lot to learn.

The best players I have met through the years were the ones who put selfishness aside and did their best for the team. If you cop an attitude at the high school level, especially toward your teammates and coaches, be prepared to not being accepted at a higher level of baseball.

In other words. Shut your mouth and play your best, and quit complaining.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/06/1s6b...es-matt-bush/?padres

I also can see both sides, but like L8Breaking said, my son would not have traded the experience of playing for his home town school and with his friends. Going the travel or private school route can work out great for some but maybe not others. At the beginning of high school, we had several very good athletes decide to attend local private schools (our public school is one of the best in the state, so the transfers were either motivated by athletic reasons or to get a Catholic school education). We lost a couple of very good hitters, one of them probably the best hitter in my son's class. But that hitter did not end up starting Varsity his junior year at one of the top programs in the country. I don't know if he will start this year as a senior or not. Hopefully he feels he made the right choice. But he would have probably been one of the top hitters on our high school team this year as a senior. And this is a team that has a chance to make some noise in the state, with one nationally recognized pitcher who will be going to Stanford on scholarship and another who throws in the mid to upper 80's with good stuff. So maybe the players that went private utlimately could have had a better experience with our public school team...but that's something I can't really judge.

Curveball07 - nice post. And to one of your points, it certainly has been interesting and hopefully fun for my son and his teammates to be around the excitement of a nationally recruited pitcher, with all the scouts and media attention. And being on what would have otherwise been just a decent high school team did not hurt the prospects of that pitcher...of course he also played for top summer teams and in tournaments.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
Too many people are in such a hurry about the baseball process that they forget to enjoy the journey, and only focus on a desired result.

It shouldn't matter that your high school program isn't as competitive for your player. Losing games are part of baseball, so get used to it. It better prepares the player for eventual team and their own personal baseball failures that are forthcoming.

It sounds like those in favor of dismissing high school baseball may feel the time spent will hinder their careers. If you feel that, you got a lot to learn.

The best players I have met through the years were the ones who put selfishness aside and did their best for the team. If you cop an attitude at the high school level, especially toward your teammates and coaches, be prepared to not being accepted at a higher level of baseball.

In other words. Shut your mouth and play your best, and quit complaining.

hope you don't feel i was complaining....i know that personally my son would play a double header in a snowstorm against a team of 5 year olds just to play the game....and it's not very dignified to badmouth a coaching staff so i won't do that either . i was simply stating that he loves the game, plays both hs and summer, but enjoys the summer experience a little more.

in a perfect world schools could afford to hire skilled qualified baseball coaches who love the coaching experience more than anything. in a perfect world baseball wouldn't take a backseat to basketball and football in southern indiana.

my son has learned about friendship, digging deep, forgiveness, and teamwork from his hs team. he's also learned how to handle difficult situations and that life isn't fair and that you won't always like people in authority, but you still have to respect them......

no complaining here......

is every travel ball player a prospect? i have seen many travel ball player's end their playing day's, with travel ball. because your a good player really doesn't translate to a higher level. does it?

our baseball in my community, has gone to the LL ws, won state tourney's in br, won state titles in legion. only 3 went on to play in college. there was more than a few good player's too.

i believe there is a place for every one to play in college,that really want's to. but it sounds as though people are paying for that first year up front,paying for travel ball.

our community isn't as sports minded as it was, but you'll see 25 or 30 at a game that don't have kids there. that ain't bad.

You play high school baseball because it's the right thing to do. It's only two and a half months long usually. Baseball is a little tougher to get community support because of the start times most people aren't off work and the season is at the worst time of the year - cold and wet. People aren't going to go out and sit in that but you better believe they know the scores usually or they will ask someone what the scores were or how the season is going.

All of baseball is a standard bell curve. You got some teams (HS, summer, select, travel, elite, daddyball) that are absolutely terrible. You got some teams (HS, summer, select, travel, elite, daddyball) that are absolutely awesome. But the rest (you get my drift) are all somewhere between decent to pretty good. For every high school team that wins the state championship you can name 20 teams that don't come close to the in terms of talent. For every Jupiter type winner you can name 20 teams that don't come close. For every great HS coach you can find a travel / select coach just as good. For every horrible HS coach you can find a travel / select coach just as bad.

I love what curveball said about how you have to have both and they are completely correct. I am not going to bash summer ball just because I am a HS coach (I did everything I could to get my guys on summer teams) but I'm not going to swallow the kool aid that summer / select is better.

HS baseball offers the opportunity to be appreciated by the whole community. When the weather turned and started to become warmer our stands were full with HS kids watching their friends. We played at a community park and on the nights we played and LL played there were so many people who just went back and forth from game to game because the HS kids were on that smaller field just a few years ago and the little kids will be on the bigger field in a few years. Everytime we made a deep run in the playoffs the stands were packed and there were tons of people there who didn't have kids on the team. They came to support our HS just like you get people out to basketball and football games.

I don't know if this happens on travel / summer ball but I do know that HS kids are routinely interviewed by the local media after games - especially big games. The kids love that - heck I love it when they interview me and I'm an old man. I love giving the post game interview to the radio station and love it even more when my guys get to do it.

HS baseball is the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

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HS baseball is the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

coach, i absolutely agree

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Originally posted by coach2709:
HS baseball is the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

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Originally posted by dbg_fan:
Playing for the HS baseball team (or football, or basketball) is good for the community? What a crock.

I'm not so sure that's completely true. A HS athlete does represent his school and the town he plays for. Now at the level the "communiry" itself is involved, that could be someting of a question and the stuff about being a hero about the town is way overrated . However, to dismiss it as a total crock might be a bit harsh because for example when my son played for his HS baseball team, they held a clinic at the local little league each year (a league which just about every high school player has played in)and the parents would bring their kids down and they'd spend the day with the players getting instruction. One year I went to watch the clinic for a couple of hours and my son was instructing at the hitting station and the kids are all wide-eyed hanging on to every word he was telling them on hitting technique. Some of the little league coaches come with some of their players and tell them "if you work hard, you could be one of these players in a few years" .The kids also got posters of the high school team and the players autograph the posters for the little leaguers and the parents always thank the players for taking the time with their kids, give them some instructions and make a fun day for them.

This is something that can be accomplished whether it's a nationally ranked high school team or a team that has some good years and some off years.

This seems to be an extension of the other thread. I’m glad after reading one of the posts submitted there.

Just something to think about. Please don't read anything extra into it.

I’ve tried to make it perfectly clear that “every” player should play for his high school team. In fact, that would be in "his" best interest in most every case. However, there are some extenuating circumstances at times.

Here is a true story based on a situation that happened in our town…

There was a sophomore who was extra talented. In fact, he was the most talented baseball player at his high school… any age. He played in our spring leagues and in our fall leagues and he became fairly well known nationally.

Iowa is one of the few states that play their high school schedule in the summer. The season ends around the end of July. This is an obvious disadvantage to Iowa high school players when it comes to recruiting opportunities and/or draft opportunities. The MLB draft is held in June when the Iowa HS season is just starting. This means the players senior baseball season has no bearing on the draft and in many cases it has little bearing on recruiting.

It’s a bad rule that IMO isn’t in the interest of the more talented kids, but it’s a rule and we live with it. For sure we would never do anything to harm high school baseball. I share the same feeling that others have expressed… High School Baseball should be #1! The high school coaches voted on changing the season to the traditional spring schedule and it was voted down by a large margin.

Back to extenuating circumstances and that very talented sophomore. He was invited to the tryouts for the Youth National Team. Most any kid would love to get the opportunity to represent his country and those who do get that opportunity should never pass it up IMO. That might be one thing that is even better than high school baseball. I guarantee that one is something players will never forget.

His high school coach told him if he tried out he would not be on the high school team. I’m not judging if this was the right or wrong thing to do, but that was the coaches decision, and it was his team.

What did end up happening was the young player ended up going to the National tryouts and also transferred to a different high school, one where the coach had no problem with what took place.

Also, surprising to us, the player was not selected for the Youth National Team that year despite being a outstanding 2-way player… LHP / OF / 1B.

The player finished his high school career at the other school, all but his senior year because he was drafted early in 2002 and signed right away, just as his senior season was getting started. He also played in our stuff and as a junior was the MVP of the WWBA Jupiter Championship in the fall, playing for the team that won it.

He was the unanimous choice as MVP. There were 28 players that year at that tournament who became first round picks either the next June or out of college. Another 21 from that event became second round picks. There are over 30 players from that one event who have since played in the Major Leagues.

Last year the young kid that was kicked off his high school team, because he tried out for the Youth National Team, hit .286 in the Major Leagues as a starting outfielder for the Oakland A’s.

His accomplishments has been great for the community because it has helped raise the level of interest at the youth levels. The high school he first attended would have been as proud as the high school across town that he actually ended up at.

In the past, we actually have been approached to start an “all star” Iowa summer team so the best players could compete against other talented kids from all over the country in the summer. We never did it and we never will, despite having a fairly decent reason for doing so in the interest of talented players. However, if there were 20 situations like the one above, maybe we should think about it. No… Not really! High School baseball is too big a deal!

Just a true story, TIFWIW! What would you have done if you were his coach? Understanding that there might not have been any problem if it had been another state rather than Iowa.

I am not sure what I would have done as a coach.

Why should those with more talent (obviously he was) have special priveledges? Wasn't his team and the coach depending upon him for their success. Sometimes in life we have to make choices, and think about how our choice may affect others. If a coach lets one miss games because of other team obligations, you have to let others, then you have players coming and going and doesn't that become difficult to run your team?

I am just throwing some things out there, thinking of a situation that happened for my son.

Many years ago he had gone to play USA and chosen for try outs. If he had made it, he would not have been able to travel on a travel team he had committed for and practices for to play in Atlanta the same time as the USA youth games in Mexico. He was an integral part of that team, and his teammates depended upon him. The coach was not happy, I didn't understand it at the time, but I do now. He had made a commitment, but decided to do what was best for him and we went along with it, because it seemed like how could you pass that up. He didn't make the team and was able to go play in Atlanta, the coach didn't punish him by sitting him out, because he liked son too much and knew he needed him. Kicking him off would have punished everyone. I think he had a better time in Atlanta anyway. That is one trip and tournament he talks about from his past,not his youth team try out. Besides, if you are talented and have to give up one opportunity, there will be plenty more in your life to look forward to.

Mine was one of those who was asked to give up his senior season and come to school early. Great opportunity, but he realized at that time, after the first experience that he couldn't disappoint his teammates he had played with for 4 years who were counting on him to help them get farther than any team had in many years. He put his team above himself. He, IMO was way above the HS level at that time but if you ask him he wouldn't have had it any other way. It was a great year, even with some team issues. Aren't these the things that we try to teach our offspring, or maybe these are the things that some parents try to instill in their children, not everyone, you have to learn to be a good team player before you can become a successful one. This is important in youth years, because later on that can fade away.


I just see more in youth sports than I ever have, it's all about me and what's good for me. That's good for some, not for others. JMO.

As for why travel ball has to compete with high school ball makes no sense. Alternatives are good but travel should be competing for services in the summer season, not the high school season.

And what's better than reading about you kid in the newspaper the next day after a vasity game? Travel teams don't get that kind of coverage. All these select travel teams are about is developing talent with a bunch of players lumped together on a team while high school, there's still the team dynamic to the sport. It's that way will all high school sports. That's what makes legion good is that the teams are school based so there's still that connection to the town you live in.