WHY

I would love to know being a Cubs fan, swept in last 2 playoffs.

There's Mr May, Dave Winfield.

This is an interesting question for discussion.

You see this in college baseball too. My opinion is that all players are different, some peak at different times, for some it's mid way through season for others it's playoffs. Some get recharged and others have used their charges. There's so much energy spent in trying to get there, sometimes they just run out of gas. I am assuming by spetember/October everyone is pretty beat up and how many players per team actually remain consistant from beginning of season to the end?

This is where good team dymanics/chemistry comes into play. I suppose that is why we so often see one or two players per team emerge and end up being playoff stars. Instead of everyone pointing fingers, everyone needs to step up and help pick up the slack.

Look back at some of the World Series Stars and they are usually the lesxser players, Boone, Martin, Dent wtc---interesting isnt it

But a player like AROD with his numbers every year is a bust come October but on the other hand Reggie was over the top in October---two great players and two different results---who do you want on your team coming up to bat in a key situation in October and November?

Also lets not bring college players into this--lets just keep it at the top level--MLB

It is all in there heads IMO. The big stars are expected to do well and the other guys are just supposed to be lucky to be there. Less stress equals better performance, usually.

Plus, I would bet that the pitchers really ramp it up against the superstars. That guy isn't going to beat me. Oh look who is up now, Bucky Dent, that guy can't hit my fastball.

Oops.

My guess is that they try to do too much to be the superstar, and get out of their comfort zone.

In the Cubs situation they have so much pressure with the cruse every year. But, I'm a Marlins fan, so I love Steve Bartman.

I agree with DM about it being in their heads simply because baseball is a mental game. Sure you need talent but the vast majority of players that make it to the minors and many that play college ball have a great deal of talent ---- it comes down to how they approach the game from that point on that makes the difference. Consistency is probably the most elusive part of being a solid player. Infielddad's "tag" at the end of each of his posts sums it up --- "You don't have to be a great player to play in the major leagues, you've got to be a good one every day."

Never blamed Bartman, everyone around him reached for the ball to, he was just in the wrong place wrong time, probably would not have been caught anyway. Maybe my son can pitch them to a win in the World Series he would be bigger than Jordan in Chi-town (now there was a clutch player).

I think part of the issue is the way the general public perceives this. The TEAM makes it to the play-offs and people say a certain PLAYER is a bust. Yeah some players do step up at given times (Boone), but that chould be any player in the line up or the field. When Boone hit that ball out to win, he did somehting that would be considered "clutch". But we forget what the Yankees did as a team to get into extra innings. It shouldn't matter what time of year it is. It is a team effort. As a yankee fan I can't stand this. The perception is when the yanks win it's a team effort...when they lose it's a-rod's fault. Do I want Boone or A-rod up in that spot? A-rod. Why? Becasue he's a better player and that puts the team in the best position to win.

Compare MLB to pro football, basketball, and hockey.

Super-star professionals that regularly underperform in the playoffs is much more a phenomenon in baseball than it is in the other pro sports. Specifically, it seems to afflict hitting, as opposed to pitching or defense.

IMO, this happens to hitters that try to elevate their game in the post-season. As compared to other sports challenges, hitting is such a head game that it is uniquely important for batters to "stay within themselves." Most do, but some can't.

It's in their heads. Players like Arod tighten up when the competition get ratched up. Problem with Arod is he's too caught up with his image and too concerned with himself. He works as hard at his game as anybody and is the most talented player so go figure.

Then you had players like Reggie who fed off this stuff and only got better when the games got bigger.

And there's players like Jeter who plays every game like a world series game and is oblivious to pressure. Jeter gets what it's all about to be a NY athlete, superstar and how to navigate a career in NY. Something Arod never figured out.

Couldn't figure out why Mr. May had trouble in post season. He looked the type that always played loose and pressure wouldn't get to him but he had a pathetic world series w/Yanks.

Roger Maris supposedly was losing some of his hair during the 1961 home run race. I can't picture that.

But it's really hard to picture a quarterback or point guard losing their hair. Hitting is uniquely a head game.

I don't know why more pro golfers don't choke when the limelight gets turned up. Or, maybe the leaderboard is a reflection of who is choking less on that particular weekend. Most of them seem to have nice hair, though.

hair ??? what does that have to do with hitting in the clutch?

quote:

hair ??? what does that have to do with hitting in the clutch?

By using the Maris example, I was suggesting that when star MLB hitters are performing under the media microscope, they can be affected more than their superstar counterparts in other pro sports.

They've only got 4 at-bats. Michael Jordan could throw up four bricks in the first five minutes, no big deal, plenty of game left.

Sir you have lost me !!!

I don't know that there is much point in comparing baseball (post season or otherwise) to any other pro sport. Baseball is a team game with a series of spotlights on individual player's performance. As freddy just pointed out, the offensive chances are limited.

(I got the hair thing, f. But I can follow stream-of-consciousness )

Teams pretty much ride the Superstars to the post season, and by then those stars are worn out. Although, to see how much of a factor that really is, we could look at any time they spent on the DL that season. In 2006, the Cards lost a lot of August to the starting lineup being on the DL, and it benefited the team post season.

DM makes an excellant point; some of it is in the head of the pitcher. As does zomby --- the Reggies feed off the limelight, the Arods have trouble with heat.

quote:

Sir you have lost me !!!

TR, I re-read my post. Now I understand why I lost you. I should have written, "Maris was losing hair due to stress during the '61 home run race."

Along with Reggie, I thought Paul O'Neil was one of the best money players I have ever seen - 5 rings (4 Yankees, 1 Reds). The Yankees have yet to win one since his retirement. Pedroia reminds me a little bit of O'Neil in his approach.

Manny might have the best approach of all. By being a simpleton, I don't believe he has much to cloud his imagination or focus. I believe it has been a huge asset for him. It will be interesting to see how many rings Boston wins without him.

The coaches who work with pro players I have been around keep telling my son that the single biggest difference between those who make in the MLB and those who don't are the ones who have the mental part of the game under control. They tell me this is even more evident in the minors where many, many, very talented players, who you would think would be sure bets, never make it out of the minors.

The weeding process is finalized in the MLB where the pressures are even greater. Golf and Baseball are the two sports where the physical aspects of the game at the highest levels almost become secondary because those who make it that far have all of the necessary physical skills.

A Rod is generally considered a flop in the post season. Jeter is usually mentioned as a stand out.

Overall, Jeter has played many more post season games and does have better numbers. But baseball is very much a game where things change from one time to the next. Most important is the old... What have you done lately?

For example, in 1997 both Jeter and A Rod played in the division series. A Rod hit .313, Jeter hit .333

in 2000 both Jeter (Yankees) and A Rod (Seattle) played in the post season. They even played against each other that year. In the Division Series Jeter hit .211 as the Yankees beat the A's. A Rod hit .308 as the Mariners beat the White Sox. Then the Yankees beat the Mariners in the league championship as Jeter hit .318 with 2 HRs and A Rod hit .409 with 2 HRs in that series.

Both were with the Yankees in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007.

2004 - Division Series Jeter hit .316, A Rod hit .421. In the League Championship against the Red Sox Jeter hit .200, A Rod hit .258 with 2 HRs and 5 RBI.

2005 - Division Series Jeter hit .333, A Rod hit only .133

2006 - Division Series Jeter was 8 for 16 and hit .500, A Rod was 1 for 14 and only hit .071. Those two years accounted for 9 playoff games that Jeter lovers and A Rod haters love to remember.

2007 - Division Series Jeter hit .176, A Rod hit .267.

Overall Jeter has been very good in post season play. But if you take away those two years (I know you can't) A Rod has hit .328 in post season play. Actually in 14 League Championship games he has hit .315 with 4 HRs and 10 RBI. That would average out to 46 HRs, 116 RBI for a season.

Guess my point is, other than in 2 series he has done well, but everyone remembers those series. All that said, I don't particularly like him either.

I just hate it when facts get in the way of perception

PG

ARODS big failure to the NY fans is that his HRs come when they are either up or down by 10 runs---he doesn't hit in the clutch situations while it seems that Jeter always, at least to them anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Pat H:
Do I want Boone or A-rod up in that spot? A-rod. Why? Becasue he's a better player and that puts the team in the best position to win.

I'll take Scott Brosius or Paul O'Neil over A-Rod in a clutch post season situation every time.

Two years ago A Rod led the entire Major Leagues in score tying and score lead RBI. You don't do that by only hitting when your 10 runs down or 10 runs ahead.

Scott Brosius? Obviously you're not looking up the actual statistics.

Brosius played in 4 Division Series, he was 9 for 54 with 1 HR and 6 RBI in 14 games... Hit .167

He played in 4 League Championship series, he was 17 for 72... Hit .236

He did do better in 4 World Series... Hit .314

I think your basing your opinion on the fact that the Yankees won 11 out of those 12 series. He was a lifetime .257 hitter with 141 HR and 531 RBI (Pretty Good). A Rod is a lifetime .306 hitter with 553 HRs and 1606 RBI.

This is what I mean by A Rod haters not seeing the forest for the trees. There is no comparison betweenb these two in any way. I also like Scott Brosius and once again I don't care for A Rod. But that doesn't change the facts.

My take on the original question is that baseball is a game of streaks. Peaks and valleys. The sample size of the playoffs is very small compared to a full season. Every player has peaks and valleys at some point. Those that happen to be in a funk at playoff time fail. If this player is lucky enough to make the post season a few times and happens to be in the valley each time, he gets labeled that way. I feel that if the players had enough chances, the stats would even out to something near their career norms.

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favorite Arod hit
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PG - I agree with your take. I don't think anyone would argue against Paul O'Neil however who had a career .284 avg. in the post season.

Brosius had a memorable homerun. Kind of like Aaron Boone imho. I never thought that Tino Martinez was much of a clutch hitter either although he hit a couple memorable homeruns.

Here is how I would rate the late 90's Yankees:

O'Neil
Jeter
Posada and Williams
Martinez
Brosius
Everybody else
Note: (perhaps Wade Boggs should be on the list but he does not seem like a Yankee to me)

Reggie of course is on the all time list but when you do that he pales in comparison to the likes of Mantle, Ruth, Dimaggio, Gehrig, Berra, and of course Bobby Richardson Lou Pinnela was a pretty darned good clutch player as well imho.

There are obviously tons of post season pitchers and I'll let someone else name them.

quote:

There are obviously tons of post season pitchers and I'll let someone else name them.

He didn't pitch in a lot of post seasons, but Bob Gibson was amazing!

IMHO post season numbers and "slumps" are a bit overrated to listen to. It seems there are 162 good reasons per year not to judge a persons career on the relativily few post season games.

The whole is the sum of it's parts. Take any given player and he will have ups and downs throughout the season continuing into the post-sseason.

Apply this to the entire team and at any given moment in time some will be up and others down and many in between.

Now plot it out as a team instead of as individuals. It just depends on where the team plot happens to fall at playoff time. As usual, however, some will shine brightly where others will look sad. It is just the timing.

We can talk logic, stats, theories and all the rest but in MLB post season games there are always season long heroes who burn out in post season and allow players like Martin, Dent, Boone etc to be the heroes

TRhit: You have clearly stated the situation. To me the question is why does it happen. We are talking about mentally tough players ---- well for the most part.

I happen to believe that it is because of biological rhythm swings rather than succombing to the pressure of just plain choking.

I would agree with anyone who says it's more about how the person handles pressure. Yes, I do believe there are slumps throughout a season but it's no coincidence that these same slumps occur more often during clutch times than not. When playoffs come around, players may start pressing and trying to do to much in order to, in Arod's case, live up to the hype. I have learned from hitting in the cage many times that being tense at the plate and trying to hit it as hard as you can does not help in any way. It's better to be relaxed and confident at the plate then nervous you're going to fail. In the playoffs, certain players may begin to play on their heels because they are scared to make a mistake instead of trying to make something happen. Everything is the playoffs is put in the spotlight so when players press it's understandable. It's easy saying well one should relax and do this and that but when the time comes it becomes extremely difficult to stay relaxed. It becomes especially difficult when the weight of a franchise is on your back. That's why Yogi said "Ninety percent of this game is mental, and the other half is physical."