Why do umpires let coaches and fans act the way they do?

quote:

Originally posted by OA5II:
I am not an umpire. I do attend many games at different levels and it seems that the coaches and fans have gotten worse and worse. Coaches constantly making snide remarks, no respect for the game nor the umpires and parents even worse.

Why don't officials put an end to it, b/c it is obvious that coaches aren't going to police themselves and parents aren't going to either.

So much material, so little time. I'll address part B now and take another look at part A a bit later.

By rule, umpires have no jurisdiction over the fans, unless they come onto the field. Yes, I know, some umpires have been known to "eject fans." But they really do not have that authority.

Engaging fans is like stepping in quick sand. Once you start, you get drawn in further and the more you struggle or try to extricate yourself, the worse it gets.

American Legion, in the code of conduct that coaches sign, speficially makes them responsible for their fans. A great idea.

The five steps in dealing with fans are:

1. Ignore them
2. Ignore them
3. Ignore them
4. If they have gotten to the point that they are disrupting or behaving violently, or making your job impossible, seek out an AD or tournament director and ask them to defuse the situation.
5. If there is no TD or AD, instruct the head coach to fix it. If he refuses, ask the new head coach to fix it.

If all that fails, you can, depending on the rule set, declare a forfeit or suspend the game.

It should NEVER come to either of those, however.

quote:

The five steps in dealing with fans are:

1. Ignore them
2. Ignore them
3. Ignore them
4. If they have gotten to the point that they are disrupting or behaving violently, or making your job impossible, seek out an AD or tournament director and ask them to defuse the situation.
5. If there is no TD or AD, instruct the head coach to fix it. If he refuses, ask the new head coach to fix it.

If all that fails, you can, depending on the rule set, declare a forfeit or suspend the game.

It should NEVER come to either of those, however.

Coaches, I handle.......

Fans, I ignore..........

well said Jimmy........excellent post.

quote:

Why don't officials put an end to it, b/c it is obvious that coaches aren't going to police themselves and parents aren't going to either.

I am working on it. Remember "Get Smart"?
I am working on a patent for a "cone of silence", it will replace the out of play boundries on all fields, will be adaptable to any sport.

But as others have posted, nothing an umpire can do about the fans.

So what does happen? Why do coaches, fans, players and well, sometimes officials as well, act the way they do? It's always made me shake my head and say hmmm? I don't think it's getting worse, just changing faces from year to year. I've been involved in BB since 1969 and I've seen these antics at every level. Just not enough professional attitudes out there to go around IMO.
The answers: Peer pressure and applicable authorities taking "action".

Coaches: players act like a fool, bench em or dismiss em from the roster. I've done this as a coach, star players, non-star players, big games and small.
Parents: your kid plays for a coach that acts like a fool, take your concerns to the governing body of that league, to the coach/s, or quit em.
Kids: coach acts like a fool, threaten to quit em, sometimes "your stuck" I know, but stating your concerns to the coach may help, if your teammates agree, then a team meeting with the skipper may be the answer.
Leagues: your coaches act like fools, fire em.
Parents: your co-fans act like fools, quit em.
Coaches: your fans act like fools, squelch em or quit.
As a player I don't recall myself or a teammate ever acting a fool towards a call no matter what. Just wasns't allowed by the coaches I had. Thanks guys.
As a coach, I would not allow my players to question an umpires decision, throw stuff, curse or generally "act a fool", this was cleary stated at my pre-season team meetings, and was followed up if needed. We did offer pro-rated refunds by the way.
As a coach "my parents only" pre-season meetings also clearly stated my views on inappropriate antics for my players and fans as well. Not much I could threaten or promise them (parents), but at least they got the message. If and when some did act a fool, I approached them and did my best to squelch this activity, usually worked, only failed once, and a league official tossed them from the facility. And I followed up with a personal visit with the guilty party after the game, it worked, no further "foolishness".

My approach to team sports was that I was playing, coaching in a position to represent my community.
What message do we want to project about our community? That's your call..

Many umpires say they will "ignore". With backstops less than 20 feet from your rear, ignore isn't an option when the abuse is constant and personal. There is a responsibility to players to deploy penalties to coaches and fans when they are so.

Poosey:
I don't understand your last sentence. We have no power outside the fences. If it gets too out of line you may need to involve your game administrator.

You may not but I do, Michael. This last week I had an adult game with a haranguing fan (F1s wife). I let it go for an inning or so, pulled of my helmet, and gave her two choices. One was to leave, she chose to shut up.

THanks Poosey.

There is your answer as to why fans act the way they do.

Umpires who think the world revolves around them. If she was not cursing you or making threats, you have no legal rights to say anything to her, even adult ball.

When an umpire talks to a fan, he shows his level of umpiring.

We bring this stuff on ourselves. Ignore them.

Jeff

Glad to hear you say that !!!


All too of the Blue Contingent have ears bigger than usual---used to be that umps ignored the fans now it seems that they hear things that were not even said

Fans who believe the umpires are objects of abuse can kiss my grits, Jeff. Has nothing to do with center of worlds, that is in your mind only. Do you support fans abusing umpires because they are supposedly defenseless by the rules? Is this your sole justification for abusing umpires, that it is because we are self-centered?

I know that very few good umpires who call the game right have many run ins with fans. It is the ones who think they are boss.
I also know there are jerks as fans. But reality is we are getting paid and they are paying. There is very little that a fan can say to me that will bother me. Don't curse me or talk to or about a particular player. Other than that like or don't like my calls. Holler all you want.
Again, I believe most of it is ego.
BTW, what was the wife saying to you? Was she questioning balls and strikes? That is part of baseball.
I was at WWBA for three weeks and saw some of the best youth baseball and umpiring. The umpires were professional and friendly with the fans and coaches. Knew the rules and called the games fairly. Some parents questioned strike zones and the umps just agreed to disagree. The one ump that got in a fan's face was asked to go home, along with the fan.

Jeff has the point on this one........our influence does not extend beyond the field.......and engaging fans seldom turns out well........

No one here condones abuse of umpires from fans...but the fans are the responsibility of the coach.......or site director......

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Jeff has the point on this one........our influence does not extend beyond the field.......and engaging fans seldom turns out well........

Turns out well for me.

Poosey, no it doesn't. You may think that you have resolved the situation, but you did it at your own professional expense. The fan wins you lose. That simple.
Any time I see blue engage a fan I am embarrased for him and I assume he is just a hack.
It is so much more effective to let the coach handle it. I have seen several occasions(especially in HS) where the coach has walked over to the fence(at the request of PU) and asked the fans to tone it down. EVERYTIME it stops right there.

Now lets do an exercise:

Me in the stands: "BLUE YOU SUK"!!!!!

poosey: "?"

Let's summarize. I have a errant fan who is abusing another human being. I refuse to tolerate the abuse and take care of the situation. You can assume whatever you want to but anyone who tolerates up with abuse teaches the exact opposite of what umpiring stands for. Fair play in a sportsmanlike environment.

Btw, do you umpire with regularity?

What you have is a jerk OUTSIDE the fence. If it normal abuse, live with it. If it becomes rude or vulgar get the game management involved. If you say something then you are as wrong as they are.

quote:

Originally posted by Poosey:
Let's summarize. I have a errant fan who is abusing another human being. I refuse to tolerate the abuse and take care of the situation. You can assume whatever you want to but anyone who tolerates up with abuse teaches the exact opposite of what umpiring stands for. Fair play in a sportsmanlike environment.

Btw, do you umpire with regularity?

Wrong.

You are being employed as the abiter of a sporting event. This sporting event has rules. Part of these rules limit your jurisdiction. Your jurisdiction ends at the field. PERIOD!

If you act as you have stated, addressing fans, you are acting outside of your jurisdiction or simply making up rules.

quote:

Any time I see blue engage a fan I am embarrased for him and I assume he is just a hack.

I assume you have a big opinion of yourself from this statement thinking anyone cares what you think.

Anytime I hear an alleged fan or coach conduct themself in this manner I assume the coach is a jerk for not controlling his fans.

Why does behavior that would get you fired on your job have to be tolerated? Why does behavior that would get your a.. beat if it happened on the street have to tolerated? Why? Because you idiots think you are behind a fence and protected. Wow, big man. You think the game is about you. I heard so many idiot fans and coaches brag about the bad way they conduct themselves at games. I assume it is a deficiency in their life. Their lack of character and good upbringing. Is it any wonder that the kids don't know how to conduct themselves in public with the bad language and behavior we see everywhere?

I know the county I'm in doesn't tolerate abuse of umpires, coaches, players, etc during school games, or for that matter any game at the amateur level. I'm talking about the personal attacks, threatening behavior. Conduct yourself in the manner that I see written hear and you will find yourself suspended for a couple of games or as a fan banned from school or county property.

A friend of mine at a high school game had someone getting very personal with the insults at a game. Eventually he tossed the guy. The big man told my friend he would meet him in the parking lot. My friend told him that would be the second mistake he made that day if he was still there when my friend got to the parking lot. Naturally the man wasn't there. He wasn't there because it's easy being a big man when there is a fence between you and your target.

Grow up.

According to the original post there were no threats made. Just questioning strike zone. What you guys don't realize is that we are the reason for the problems. REad the statements made by many of you on here who defend this behavior are the same ones who say you make up your own strike zone.

I agree, threats, cursing should get you tossed. But questioning strike zones and judgment calls should not.

Again, I will turn it around on you. Some of you who umpire the way you do with the threats could not back them up without the fence and your uniform.

mccol
"blue you suk" was tongue in cheek. As a coach or fan I have never been removed from a game.
I do not myself, or condone umpire abuse. period.
It does happen though, the point is..there is an appropriate way to handle it and it is NOT to personally engage a fan. It is bush period.

Answer this: what kind of umpire takes on a fan directly when he has the option of making the coach, game director, tourney director, AD etc.. to
handle the situation?

No one here is saying its ok to harass an umpire but rather how it should be handle when it occurs.

And don't jump in here with your first post, go on a rant telling peaple to grow up.

As a long time umpire, I don't go outside the fence. I have in the past with the LL system but that's because I was reconized as a administrator as well as an ump. That said, The bullying of umps is ridiculous but happens on a regular basis. There are rules in place for youth umpires to follow. They all default to get the game administrator. I follow LL's lead and stop the game until the GA has fixed the problem. Discontinue the game if needed. If it is simple chirping, grow a skin and deal with it. The stopping is for vulgar or out of control situations.
I dumped a coach one night that threatened to meet me in the parking lot. I banished from the property. When he went to his truck but refused to leave, I suspended play until the president got rid of him. He sat at the edge of the property and watched the game. The president asked me if I wanted the police there for the end of the game. I told him I saw no need since he was doing what he was told. He asked what happens if he comes back. I told I whip him and send him on his way. I figure I'm in gear with a mask as a weapon, I was good.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:

Wrong.

You are being employed as the abiter of a sporting event.This sporting event has rules. Part of these rules limit your jurisdiction. Your jurisdiction ends at the field. PERIOD!

Call me when umpires, ballplayers do not bend or ignore the rules. The day I am relegated to being a McDonald's style, completely controlled RoboUmpire, I'm through. If I have to take inhuman abuse, I'm gone. Let me tell you, I have quit umpiring in any situation where I cannot control and dismiss personal abuse. Btw, we are not employed, we are Independent Contractors, hired, and allowed by necessity to apply the rules as we wish.

quote:

If you act as you have stated, addressing fans, you are acting outside of your jurisdiction or simply making up rules.

You must be new to baseball.

LOL, I must be new to baseball? Read what you wrote.

Inhuman abuse? Grow a set, deal with what's on the field.

BTW, I am employed. I am employed as an IC by whatever association I work for.

And finally, your last sentence says it all, "...and allowed by necessity to apply the rules as we wish."

Try volleyball, poosey.

Poosey, you are the problem with umpiring.

Let ME write my own rules and interpretations.

Let ME deal with people the way I want.

Let ME be seen.

It's not about YOU! It's about kids or adults in this case, playing a game where we are suppose to just enforce the rules that are written the way they are written.

If someone questioning balls and strikes is abuse, you need to get a real life.

The problem when we go outside the fence is we invite them to come inside the fence. We invite them to wait in the parking lot and such. The best thing we can do is what we are told to do and that is to let the management handle it and never say a word to the fans.

quote:

and allowed by necessity to apply the rules as we wish.

There's your problem right there.

I have never seen a succesfull umpire at the HS varsity or NCAA level attempt to extend his authority to the fans.

I admit that I have seen just this year two less than succesful umpires attempt this.

The first, a D-iii level umpire was then redlined by the school and, two weeks later, dropped by the assignor.

The second, a JV umpire, was suspended by his association for a half season.

Just an FYI, Poosey is yet another alias for a previous instigator on here and other message boards. I'd pay him no attention.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
What you have is a jerk OUTSIDE the fence. If it normal abuse, live with it. If it becomes rude or vulgar get the game management involved. If you say something then you are as wrong as they are.

It must be nice to have all this "game management" but in the ball I call, the game management is the coaches. If the abuse is obvious, intended and unrelenting, I will give the Coach about two seconds to correct. Tossing the Coach often enhances the problem,. the abuser may be OUTSIDE the fence, the abuse and the abused is inside the fence and that fan is going to shut up or get gone.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I have never seen a succesfull umpire at the HS varsity or NCAA level attempt to extend his authority to the fans.

I invite you to one of my games then.

quote:

Originally posted by 55Dad:

quote:

and allowed by necessity to apply the rules as we wish.

There's your problem right there.

That is the reality and if you think for one moment every umpire, player, coach and fan plays, arbiters and acts 100% by the rules, you're pathetically mistaken.

quote:

Originally posted by catsbackr:
LOL, I must be new to baseball?

It would appear. BTW, I am employed. I am employed as an IC by whatever association I work for.[/quote]An IC with a W-2? You are no more employed than any other official, you a hired for a fee for a specific time period.

quote:

And finally, your last sentence says it all, "...and allowed by necessity to apply the rules as we wish. Try volleyball, poosey.

Try Webster's young'en.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Poosey, you are the problem with umpiring.

You're just another RAT who wants t see the hired help get screamed at, you get your power-jollies that way, betcha'.

quote:

Let ME write my own rules and interpretations.Let ME deal with people the way I want.Let ME be seen.

We all do, we all do, and you're projecting incorrectly, nice try tho.

[/quote]It's not about YOU! It's about kids or adults in this case, playing a game where we are suppose to just enforce the rules that are written the way they are written.[/quote] hahahah, yeah, right, Mr. 100% Always By the Rules, uh-uh, spout on.

quote:

If someone questioning balls and strikes is abuse, you need to get a real life.

Uh, Mr. Rules, it's against the rules to allow that.

quote:

The problem when we go outside the fence is we invite them to come inside the fence. We invite them to wait in the parking lot and such. The best thing we can do is what we are told to do and that is to let the management handle it and never say a word to the fans.

The problem is when we sit on our hands and let people abuse us, we invite them to wait in the parking lot and abuse us and such. The best thing we can do is what we are told to do and that is to let the management handle it and never say a word to the fans unless the management won't and then, Buster, you had best know how to take care of yourself or your MEAT when the parking lo comes.

This is starting to get kind of funny.

quote:

Buster, you had best know how to take care of yourself or your MEAT when the parking lo comes.

Like I said before poosey, grow a set! You're pathetic!

quote:

Originally posted by Poosey:

quote:

If someone questioning balls and strikes is abuse, you need to get a real life.

Uh, Mr. Rules, it's against the rules to allow that.

It's not against the rules for fans to question balls and and strikes. That is what is being discussed here.

quote:

Originally posted by Poosey

quote:

I have never seen a succesfull umpire at the HS varsity or NCAA level attempt to extend his authority to the fans.

I invite you to one of my games then.

Time and place?

Poosey:
If you aren't going to post things that make sense then don't post. I totally disagree with your beliefs but that is beside the point. Most of your posts are incoherent. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing but you need to back it up with intelligent counterpoint.
Back to the discussion. You can not, I repeat can not go outside the fence after fans. You can dump any game participant but stay away from the fans. The only system that I know of that puts the onus of fan control on the coach is Dixie baseball. Anything else you need to use the game management to fix the problem. The higher the level the less you worry about what fans say. A certain amount of yakking is normal. If you are working 18 yr olds or younger, you need to make sure it doesn't get excessive or vulgar. If it above 18s, I don't care what they say.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Poosey:
The only system that I know of that puts the onus of fan control on the coach is Dixie baseball.

From the American Legion Baseball Coach's Code of Ethics.

7) Coaches shall actively use their influence to enhance sportsmanship by their athletes and spectators.

This Code must be signed by every coach. We remind them of this item when a problem pops up. So far, I haven't heard of one coach who refused to help settle things down when requested.

= Link deleted by moderator. =