Why doesn't (didn't) your kid play...

I am looking to take my kid to a team where he can improve due to better coaching as well as better opportunities.  Our local rec league here has some daddy ball going on.  I think that is changing next year, but we have made up our mind to look else where.  By changing, I mean the coach has been removed and questions have been asked as to why there hasn't really been any turnover (this is 11u).  I want him to be on a good team with good players where he can improve. 

My son played in two local house leagues when he was younger. One good, one bad. The good one had playing rules. Had to play at least an inning in the infield and outfield. Everyone had to sit at least an inning/ could not sit more than one inning. Couldn't pitch more than two innings in a game. Bad league pretty much the opposite. Kids stuck in right field the whole season. Same kids pitched all the time. No rules on playing time.

To keep the competitive players happy , Sunday travel teams were made up from the teams and they played other local house leagues. 

I guess to sum up my above, it really comes down to where can he go where he will get good instruction and improve his baseball skills.  For us, that means going outside of local leagues.

I think we all pretty much know the reasons local leagues have been decimated.  Some suggestions to revitalize would be...

-A coordinated effort to arm the coaches with basic principles to be taught.  Recruit good, qualified help and properly train up the rest.

-Make sure the chosen sanction/rules fit the group as a whole.

-Secure adequate and ample practice facilities.

-Make sure playing rules involve everyone and encourage learning multiple positions but also reward the players who work harder at the game with the opportunity to play more innings.

-Educate the local baseball community that there is room and valuable purpose for both LL and travel.

-Provide good field conditions that play well and are a point of pride.

-Provide a fun, lively environment - promote family and community attendance, provide a great BBQ/snack bar, maybe a sound system for game announcement and between inning music, allow/encourage noisemakers, etc. 

-Create co-participation between the local HS/HS's and youth league.  Have HS kids involved in opening ceremonies, umpiring, etc and have youth players involved in the HS games with youth league night, etc.

-Get media attention and post pics and game highlights in the local rag and on a league website.

-Develop competitive All-Star teams and promote them in the media as well.

Some of this goes against the purist instinct but a whole lot of LL folks are not purists.  In short, make it better for the players to learn the game and enjoy playing, make it a big deal and also make it fun for everyone.

Rec leagues here have a lot of volunteer coaches who aren't especially knowledgeable about the game, practice maybe 4 or 5 times in a "season" and play 10-12 games plus a season ending tournament. They also pretty much don't exist after age 12. That's not really enough for anyone who has designs on playing in HS, especially on a 6A or 7A team.

When my son switched to travel at 11, the first step was towards team that were travel more or less in name only. But those teams had their own league that played a 20-24 game schedule, and they practiced 2-3 times a week, and then threw in a tournament or two. That league, sadly, has mostly disappeared over the last 5 years, too, but I think that's the model you'd need to compete with pure travel teams.

In the end, the players are going to go where the competition is, whether because they want to or because they feel compelled to in order to keep up.

Dadof3 mentioned daddy ball.  It is usually not realistic to run a local youth league without heavy participation from volunteer dads, certainly including coaching.  But with the right direction and basic training from league administrators, the dads can do just fine.  If league admins are not qualified to train, there are typically plenty of higher level guys in the community who would be glad to spend a few days providing direction to the coaches.

jacjacatk posted:

Rec leagues here have a lot of volunteer coaches who aren't especially knowledgeable about the game, practice maybe 4 or 5 times in a "season" and play 10-12 games plus a season ending tournament. They also pretty much don't exist after age 12. That's not really enough for anyone who has designs on playing in HS, especially on a 6A or 7A team.

When my son switched to travel at 11, the first step was towards team that were travel more or less in name only. But those teams had their own league that played a 20-24 game schedule, and they practiced 2-3 times a week, and then threw in a tournament or two. That league, sadly, has mostly disappeared over the last 5 years, too, but I think that's the model you'd need to compete with pure travel teams.

In the end, the players are going to go where the competition is, whether because they want to or because they feel compelled to in order to keep up.

Yes, Jac, but you are talking about the 15-30% of local youth players who are actually interested in a more competitive environment.  OP is looking for solutions for a local youth league as a whole.  I think those 15-30% need to be assured that there is time to do both and each are special in different ways.  Play with all your school friends in a fun, relaxed manner.  Then, go play more competitively later in the summer and/or fall.  Also, the all-star environment will provide additional competitive play opportunity. 

cabbagedad posted:

jacjacatk posted:

Rec leagues here have a lot of volunteer coaches who aren't especially knowledgeable about the game, practice maybe 4 or 5 times in a "season" and play 10-12 games plus a season ending tournament. They also pretty much don't exist after age 12. That's not really enough for anyone who has designs on playing in HS, especially on a 6A or 7A team.

When my son switched to travel at 11, the first step was towards team that were travel more or less in name only. But those teams had their own league that played a 20-24 game schedule, and they practiced 2-3 times a week, and then threw in a tournament or two. That league, sadly, has mostly disappeared over the last 5 years, too, but I think that's the model you'd need to compete with pure travel teams.

In the end, the players are going to go where the competition is, whether because they want to or because they feel compelled to in order to keep up.

Yes, Jac, but you are talking about the 15-30% of local youth players who are actually interested in a more competitive environment.  OP is looking for solutions for a local youth league as a whole.  I think those 15-30% need to be assured that there is time to do both and each are special in different ways.  Play with all your school friends in a fun, relaxed manner.  Then, go play more competitively later in the summer and/or fall.  Also, the all-star environment will provide additional competitive play opportunity. 

Around here (North Atlanta suburbs) it's way more than 15-30% who want more than the local leagues (or, at least, their parents do), and the fact that the rec leagues haven't responded to that preference is part of what's driving the travel boom down to age 6-7-8.  Also, there's no school ball before HS here, which probably doesn't help.

Another confounding issue, at least in my county all of the parks run their own leagues, never mind that none of them is more than 30 minutes from any of the others. I've always thought it would be better, for baseball anyway, for them to get together and build an "advanced" league for at least the kid-pitch crowd that played between the parks with a longer schedule.

Read the "Who we are" and "Why we are relevant" sections of the Little League website.

"Little League Baseball, Incorporated is a non-profit organization with the mission to “promote, develop, supervise, and voluntarily assist in all lawful ways, the interest of those who will participate in Little League Baseball and Softball.” Through proper guidance and exemplary leadership, the Little League program assists youth in developing the qualities of citizenship, discipline, teamwork and physical well-being. By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball® and Softball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than stellar athletes."

There's nothing there about improving baseball skills or preparing kids to play high school baseball or softball. It's about building communities and developing character, which is wonderful.

Their purpose explains the short playing seasons, the continuous cycling through of inexperienced coaches, and the many rules designed to discourage alert, aggressive competitive play.

I'm not singling out Little League. PONY (stands for Protect Our Nation's Youth), Khoury League ("designed to provide a rewarding and enjoyable experience"), Dixie Youth Baseball ("to provide a recreation outlet for as many boys as possible, with emphasis being on local league play"), and other civic based leagues also have purposes other than preparing athletes for more advanced competition. 

 People whose primary interest is getting good at baseball eventually choose to look for organizations dedicated to that purpose.

So here is what one local league did around me which seemed to be pretty transformative.  First, they ditched Little League Intl. and went independent.  Then they developed three "tiers": Rec, All-Star and Travel.    Everyone starts in rec.  Then, 12 kids from each age group are selected to be on the Travel Team - it's full time, no rec. participation.  They start practice in the fall.  Then an "all-star" team selected - this is a part time travel team.  They play rec. in the spring and go to all-start/travel tournaments in the summer.  The key is unlike little league the team is determined during fall tryouts and they start practice in the winter months.     

Then they got with the local travel organization which starts at 13u and together they setup their own indoor training facility.  All players Rec. thru travel have access to the facility.  They run clinics for all players (including rec. level) all winter to work on their games.  It's a nominal cost to participate in as much or as little as you want.  This facility added to their outdoor facilities makes it "top notch."   

In the spring, the travel level starts early with a local league and tournaments.  The rec/all starts start a few weeks later.  Now, they worked with other local leagues and play cross town games as part of their rec. season.  So each league may contribute 1-4 teams.  So you might have a nice, competitive 12-16 team league but only "travel" a few miles to the next town, rather than playing the same teams over and over.  

Bottom line, figure out what your customers want and deliver it. 

Jac, you bring up another good point.  It hurt Little League and youth ball in general when local LL's started leaving for other alternatives such as Ripken.  The fragmentation took away one of the special aspects of local rec ball which is the chance to compete against the neighboring towns' best when all-stars rolled around.  

So, another suggestion would be to lobby with the neighboring towns and aim for consensus on which sanction to play under.  No easy task, I know.  

Our small community experienced what so many others did about 8 years ago.  We were a small Little League with typically 6-8 majors teams most years.  Because of the limited pool of players, we would have some of the better 10 y.o. players playing majors.  Some overzealous parents decided we needed to join the movement to other sanctions where you could lead off and "play real baseball".  At first, the town was split.  The last thing the community could afford was to split the limited player pool in two different directions but that is what happened.  First, it was a disaster because now they were faced with the prospect of only 3-4 majors teams in each.  Also, bad blood, field rights issues, who gets the money from previous LL fundraising, giving up LL territory rights, equipment ownership questions, and on and on.  The Little League group finally caved in.  So, now, we have the other kind of disaster.  They try to play "real baseball" with kids who just aren't ready yet.  If a kid gets on base, it instantly starts the lengthy cycle of stealing second and then stealing third.  Pitchers can't hold runners and catchers can't throw them out.  It is a joke.  They have to travel much farther for all-stars in order to stay within their new sanction.  There is no cross-town rivalry.  Yet, the parents still cling to the idea that this is somehow better baseball for this group.   

I have two sons, both played LL and travel.  LL was a fantastic experience. Two things that helped draw/keep people with LL:

1.  The fun and convenience of playing a game at a field 15 minutes down the road and then going out to dinner (or lunch) with a group after.  All for modest expense and hassle.

2.  Opportunity for parents to take an active role in their sons' playing experience.  You want the field to look nice, be one of the people who spends some time working on the field.  Parents felt a sense of pride and ownership in that.

there is more, but those two general things came to mind first.

It may be different now but 15 years ago the League was openly hostile to travel ball and was hollowed out at 9.

At 8U coach pitch there were 250-300 kids on 18/19 teams and at 9/10U kid pitch there were 100-125 on 10 or 11.  By 11/12U it was down to 60 kids on 5 teams.  Combination of funnel cutting people out, bad league management and the 30-40 best kids leaving to play travel ball.

I was tempted to run for League President on a platform of introducing travel ball as a "Sunday Select" concept.  Recruit the guys who could coach, give them a team of all stars, buy the shirts and caps with the league logo and give them a field to practice and play on.  In return they had to play in the league spread out over all the teams for competitive reasons.  I also had plans to contact the 4/5 MLB players including all-stars that come out of the league and try to get them to put their name on it and maybe contribute some lights or time to help raise money.

When I talked to a couple of the movers in the league about my thoughts I was told - drop dead.  The parents of good players thought I had great ideas - but the pushback in a phrase was:  we are not running this thing for the 10% of good players - we are running it for all the players.  I replied you can do both but was firmly denied that it would work.

Turns out that getting Johnny on the All-Start team was far more important that promoting baseball and developing a powerful and healthy league.  I probably could have tried to pull together enough families to mount a fight....but I had a real job and just didn't have the stomach to fight city hall when I could pay $50 a month and avoid the headaches by joining a travel team.  So I did.

It isn't as if this league doesn't produce players... dozens of college DI and professional prospects started there.  Almost none of them were there after age 8 or 9.

It was a crying shame that this league and facility never had any strategic thought/vision to what it had.  There is no substitute for a good plan.

Swampboy posted:

 

Read the "Who we are" and "Why we are relevant" sections of the Little League website.

"Little League Baseball, Incorporated is a non-profit organization with the mission to “promote, develop, supervise, and voluntarily assist in all lawful ways, the interest of those who will participate in Little League Baseball and Softball.” Through proper guidance and exemplary leadership, the Little League program assists youth in developing the qualities of citizenship, discipline, teamwork and physical well-being. By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball® and Softball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than stellar athletes."

There's nothing there about improving baseball skills or preparing kids to play high school baseball or softball. It's about building communities and developing character, which is wonderful.

Their purpose explains the short playing seasons, the continuous cycling through of inexperienced coaches, and the many rules designed to discourage alert, aggressive competitive play.

I'm not singling out Little League. PONY (stands for Protect Our Nation's Youth), Khoury League ("designed to provide a rewarding and enjoyable experience"), Dixie Youth Baseball ("to provide a recreation outlet for as many boys as possible, with emphasis being on local league play"), and other civic based leagues also have purposes other than preparing athletes for more advanced competition. 

 People whose primary interest is getting good at baseball eventually choose to look for organizations dedicated to that purpose.

Swamp, good point but here's the thing...  I don't know of too many parents who take their kid to sign up for Little League thinking "I'm going to sign Jimmy up to build community and develop character".  They just sign them up to play baseball.  Granted, some recognize the potential character building benefits of team sports but that is usually secondary to whatever sport or activity the kid is interested in playing.  So, their expectations often don't completely align with the founding principles of such organizations.  Yet another challenge for the OP.  And possibly another good thread topic.

I do completely agree with your last sentence.

Our league implemented a lot of anti travel ball rules to try and prevent kids from playing travel.  It backfired and they have never recovered and probably never will.  It was a pretty good league with good facilities, but once they issued the ultimatum that a rec team could only have one player on a AAA/Maj travel roster it was over. 

cabbagedad posted:

Swamp, good point but here's the thing...  I don't know of too many parents who take their kid to sign up for Little League thinking "I'm going to sign Jimmy up to build community and develop character".  They just sign them up to play baseball.  

Exactly. What they're buying and what the leagues exist to provide are two different things. When the disparity becomes too obvious to ignore, they go find someone who's selling what they want to buy.

I was thinking about my 2 boys and the differences in their experiences.

One in Florida, where oldest was just plain scary to watch when he first stepped on the field.  The rules dictated the infield and outfield, which really forced the coaches to try and develop all the players.   He is still playing today.

My youngest was here in Ga.  A little more athletically gifted than oldest. Little guy could smoke them at the plate but just didn't get the throwing down by age 8.  Well, this league had no playing rules so he sat in the outfield.

He now plays soccer as he quickly got bored of baseball.  And the older one had no interest in the Ga. rec program, so he moved to travel.

I believe too many parents worry about development in the preteen years. It doesn't matter what team your kid plays on. He could have the best coach in the world. That coach isn't going to accomplish more with your son in two practices per week with an entire team over what you can accomplish with your son in a couple of dad/son practices per week. 

I see one big difference from when I played LL and when my son played. When I played we had LL and LL Farms. I guess it would be the same as today's Majors and Minors with one exception. When I played kids had to make LL. No one stunk. Everyone could throw, catch and make contact in BP. The rest of the kids played Farms regardless of their age.

Now there are a lot of weak players in LL Majors. Our LL puts 11s and 12s in Majors regardless of skill level. Fortunately for the quality of the league and the safety of those kids almost all of the weak players opted to play in an unaffiliated program in the next town.

In two years of Majors I only had two kids who were weak. One kid's mother pulled him off the team claiming I took away his desire to play. "He was good (three years previous) in machine pitch." The kid lost his desire striking out every at bat. Maybe he should have come to practice once in a while. Or showed up for my free individual hitting instruction. I worked with any kid in the league.

The other weak player was the most gung ho on baseball kid I've ever coached. When we were up twelve runs in the league championship game I put him on the mound so he would be mobbed when we won.

Swampboy posted:

 

Read the "Who we are" and "Why we are relevant" sections of the Little League website.

"Little League Baseball, Incorporated is a non-profit organization with the mission to “promote, develop, supervise, and voluntarily assist in all lawful ways, the interest of those who will participate in Little League Baseball and Softball.” Through proper guidance and exemplary leadership, the Little League program assists youth in developing the qualities of citizenship, discipline, teamwork and physical well-being. By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball® and Softball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than stellar athletes."

There's nothing there about improving baseball skills or preparing kids to play high school baseball or softball. It's about building communities and developing character, which is wonderful.

Their purpose explains the short playing seasons, the continuous cycling through of inexperienced coaches, and the many rules designed to discourage alert, aggressive competitive play.

I'm not singling out Little League. PONY (stands for Protect Our Nation's Youth), Khoury League ("designed to provide a rewarding and enjoyable experience"), Dixie Youth Baseball ("to provide a recreation outlet for as many boys as possible, with emphasis being on local league play"), and other civic based leagues also have purposes other than preparing athletes for more advanced competition. 

 People whose primary interest is getting good at baseball eventually choose to look for organizations dedicated to that purpose.

All very true.  I remember my first year in LL attending a district umpire clinic, the chief poobah of the Western Area, or whatever his title was, addressed all us newbies, and the one thing I remember him saying  was, "Little League is not a baseball organization. It's a youth development organization.  We build character through baseball."

Now that one of my boy is in college, and the other is on his way, only one of the of kids my older boy played with and against is still playing baseball, and just a handful of my younger son's.   Yet every one still has character, so working on that more than on the sport  is a good plan.

Agree with RJM - too many parents of pre-adolescent players take the sport (and other sports) waaaaay too seriously.   Most of the kids are going to be out of the game before long.  At that age, let them have fun playing with their friends in the spring. If they're really that good, they can play travel in the summer or fall, and ramp up when they  hit 13u and 14u.  

Agree with Cabbage's push list for running a LL or rec league. The coaching can not be emphasized too much.  Training, training, and more training should be required for all who want  a team.  And something like the Positive Coaching Alliance is a great thing to add to the mix. Far too many even very knowledgeable baseball people ruin the sport for too many kids because they don't know how to build their skills and confidence without tearing them down.

Maybe its different in other areas, maybe there are kids at the youth level in those areas who already know they are going pro and need to show that in every tournament on every weekend and cannot be bothered having a kid or two on their team who isn't very good? Maybe they are being told that you cannot play rec and you need to pay $$$ to me to be on this particular team or you will never amount to anything? I don't know...

LL is alive and well here in our little neck of the woods. Everyone who plays travel plays rec, not all rec travel though. Its absolutely just fun,  kids All Star Majors team won districts last Saturday, tomorrow we play our first sectional game, the crowds are huge, the kids are treated like superstars, once you get into All Stars your basically playing the same kids from the travel teams you'd be playing anyway, its a win win. Honestly it doesn't get a better, to bad its not like that everywhere its a great experience for the kids and loads of fun.

I want what's best for my kid.  He is a very good baseball player.  I have 0 baseball IQ, the coaches he has played for aren't much better - I don't mean the offensively, just a fact.  They are good people.  I took him to hitting lessons this year and was amazed at the amount of baseball knowledge this guy had and how much my son listened to him.  I have never seen my soon so in tuned to what the instructor was telling him.  He was all ears.   To see him want to learn and do better is great.  He wants to get better and I only see that happening with a good coach and/or instructors.  I am going to try my best to get him those.

We didn't even know there was such a thing as travel ball until oldest was 11.  He was so upset when Little League All-Stars was done that we started looking around, called a baseball place that we drove past, and before I knew it he was at a try out with 40 kids.  I'm sure I looked so confused in the stands watching people time little kids running and using radar guns.  We had no idea what we were getting into.  The next year he did both; travel and little league but after that he's been travel ball only when they started traveling out of state on a regular basis.  For him, it was the right choice, but if he wasn't a "baseball freak" and not with one of the top teams/programs in the area, there's no way we'd do travel.   

Younger son stuck with Little League thru 7th grade.  Never wanted to play travel except with the small school travel group a few weekends a year, all local.  He's one of the better players in his age group, but has more fun goofing off with friends than being a student of the game.  

Our little league is struggling and it's mostly due to lack of volunteers.  It's still the main feeder program for our high school program, so I hope they can keep it going.  There's been talk of combining it with another local league.  

Our local program blew it about 15 years ago. Before that 6-12 age all played in the rec league - 1200 kids. Very talented overall league.1400 kids between 6-18 played in it . At 13 there was one local travel team. Others who wanted to continue play in the rec league and 13-14, 15-16, 17-18 - another 200 in those age groups. and they played with 3 other neighboring towns so the was usually 8 -12 teams in each age group.

But 15 years ago a few boys (maybe 5) left for a traveling team at 12, then it was 5 at both 11 and 12 the next year. I was on the rec board then and have boys at 12, 10 and 6. Myself and a few other suggestion was to create a tryout travel team that was sponsored by the league - one in each age group 10, 11, 12. I heard the same rhetoric as above and not about the best players blah blah blah. What happened is the next year 2 team of 12, 2 team of 11 and 1 team of 10 year olds all left for travel ball. There was a beginning travel league in the metropolis area of which we were a suburb. Roughly 10-15 teams. They all went to that league. It never slowed down. When my youngest son was 9, we went to league and suggested same thing. Let the best 9,10, 11, 12 years tryout, be on a travel team associated with league, be a part of the league, play on the fields. Same answer as before. so my son when to a city based travel team that left the park.

That was 11 years ago. 8 years ago, when the league noticed that by 9U there were 4 teams worth of kids at each age gone to travel ball. They then decided it might be a good idea to sponsor a travel team or 2 in each age group. But the horses had fled the barn. By then there where  3 -4  travel  baseball organizations located within our city where almost every kid who really aspires to play travel ball starts at 9u. These were all born because the rec league would not let them be a part.  And basically the 13U and up ages were struggling to put 2 teams together.

They get 1 travel team per age group but it after the same best 4 teams of kids leave for other travel teams.  It has never been the same since. Instead of 1000 to 1200 kids playing it is about 400-500. Over half of them under 9. the 11-12 group has 4 teams this year, 13-14 has 1 team which plays various other cities (kinda like travel ball huh?) and nothing above that.

I miss those days of having 1200 kids at that park. It is still a very nice park, it just is empty a lot of times.  In answer to the OP question. I don't know how to bring it back. I do say you have to have a combination of rec / put your best players on a team and let them travel and still call the rec park home for home games. Put some of their games right in the middle of the daily schedule. let the younger kids aspire to be on those teams.

Have an area where kids can make up baseball related games. My kids had an area where the played hand ball with crunched up wax cups they got from concession stand. There was always a game going on there. All ages, kids came and went on the teams. etc.

cabbagedad posted:

Jac, you bring up another good point.  It hurt Little League and youth ball in general when local LL's started leaving for other alternatives such as Ripken.  The fragmentation took away one of the special aspects of local rec ball which is the chance to compete against the neighboring towns' best when all-stars rolled around.  

So, another suggestion would be to lobby with the neighboring towns and aim for consensus on which sanction to play under.  No easy task, I know.  

Our small community experienced what so many others did about 8 years ago.  We were a small Little League with typically 6-8 majors teams most years.  Because of the limited pool of players, we would have some of the better 10 y.o. players playing majors.  Some overzealous parents decided we needed to join the movement to other sanctions where you could lead off and "play real baseball".  At first, the town was split.  The last thing the community could afford was to split the limited player pool in two different directions but that is what happened.  First, it was a disaster because now they were faced with the prospect of only 3-4 majors teams in each.  Also, bad blood, field rights issues, who gets the money from previous LL fundraising, giving up LL territory rights, equipment ownership questions, and on and on.  The Little League group finally caved in.  So, now, we have the other kind of disaster.  They try to play "real baseball" with kids who just aren't ready yet.  If a kid gets on base, it instantly starts the lengthy cycle of stealing second and then stealing third.  Pitchers can't hold runners and catchers can't throw them out.  It is a joke.  They have to travel much farther for all-stars in order to stay within their new sanction.  There is no cross-town rivalry.  Yet, the parents still cling to the idea that this is somehow better baseball for this group.   

This sounds like our area. Within the school district boundaries of three small towns we have both LL and Ripken. The programs detest each other. Actually, the loser program detests the quality program. The quality program laughs at the losers. Our LL all star/travel team beat the Ripken all star team in a scrimmage 24-0. Then they claimed they weren't trying. They didn't use their best players (they did). You should have heard their (parents) trash talk leading up to the game.

Even when the kids get to high school the parents group in their clique. I became a target when I switched my son from the corrupt Ripken program (it was the people, not Ripken) to the quality LL program.

Is "play real baseball" an official Ripken marketing slogan? The local Ripken league used it. It should have been "watch the mayhem with minimal talent to execute."

When you look at local programs it's not the brand that makes the program, it's the local people running it. LL can be a PITA with all its rules. But some leagues need it. Ripken tells you run your league. Then here are the all star rules. You can't give corrupt people free reign to run a league.

This thread has a lot of replies.  I will clutter people's inboxes with one more quick one.  

Go to the multi-tiered league idea.  Rec- league with guaranteed playing time and competitive league with strict "winning is first" policy (policy helps to keep people from putting a weak player in competitive league who've no business there).

If they won't do that, they're dead and gone.   I like Little League but theyve made their bed with their rigidness and arrogant heavy-handedness.

I am not sure there is anyway to "bring the kids back" to the rec/LL.  Parents want their kids to play for a coach they choose and that doesn't happen in rec/LL ball.  The LL in our area treated the kids as if they owned them leading to the eventual reduction from 12 teams to 2 uncompetitive teams. 

If your kid is competitive, he wants to play on the most competitive team available.  There might be some kids playing rec/LL that can play in HS.  Once again, it seems like you just need to make sure those kids know you are interested and there are training/playing opportunities outside the LL/Rec team they play on to prepare them for HS.  i.e. finding occasional travel team opportunities for particular players, camps, weekly open practice....to the extent your HS league allows your involvement and your school insurance covers you.

I encountered a 9yo kid wearing a baseball tee with the name Elite (pick a name) on it. I asked his dad about it. He explained his son is far more talented than the typical 9yo. He needed a more challenging level of play. The dad is paying $300 per month (year round) for lessons plus the cost of the team.

later I went to the website. It says it's for players of all abilities from age 9-14. My search came up with four other select, elite, intergalactic, expensive travel programs for players 9-14 of all abilities. 

These kids might as well be in LL. They're not superior players (if there is such a thing at 9yo. Re probably not getting superior coaching. If these were great programs they would extend to 17/stop at the age I've always said players are fooled by inferior coaching anymore.

I encountered a 9yo kid wearing a baseball tee with the name Elite (pick a name) on it.

Maybe I can top that? I saw a kid with a shirt with his name on the back saying T ball all star team. I think he might have been 6 years old. 

ironhorse posted:

Little League (or rec ball or local youth league or whatever you call it where you are)?

And what changes could be made to bring them back to the local youth league?

I'm talking PRE-HIGH SCHOOL aged kids.

I'm not looking to argue travel vs rec ball at all. I'm simply looking for sound, logical reasons why local leagues have been left for "select" teams.

Background is that I'm a high school coach in a suburban area. Kids have lots of choices of where to play and our local little league has been decimated basically. A lot of it is the leagues fault, admittedly.

I'm trying to find a way to get kids back to playing in the league, even if it means turning it on it's head. Looking at what pulled kids (read: parents) away, and how what local leagues offer can be tweaked to pull them back.

Any solid input is appreciated.

Changes:

1. Have 2 levels of rec ball, a novice and advanced would be nice.  Your kid can't be in the advanced league until a coach recommends him or he was placed there during evaluations. My son's number one reason for moving to travel ball was everyone there could throw and catch.  There was no "hey I'm new to baseball and have never caught a ball or hit, but I'd like to learn". That is what rec ball turns into in my area around 8-10u everyone leaves rec ball who can play and afford to do travel ball, the people who stay are learning the basics.

2. The second reason he left was that there was no guarantee to get a decent coach.  When the 9u kid KNOWS what the coach is asking him to do is not baseball smart or flat out wrong it causes some issues in the 9 year old, swelled head issues, I don't need to listen to adults they are stupid issues.  My son had one coach that was truly horrible with baseball, he was a fun and nice guy, but didn't know anything.  At the end of the season I was told he had the lowest evaluation score of every coach in the park for EVERY age, he was still allowed back next year because frankly no one else wanted the job.    The local rec park had strict rules, if you didn't have a kid on the team you couldn't coach...that limited the coaching options drastically!  I'm sure there is some grandpa out there that would have loved to share his knowledge but that concept isn't allowed.

3. What if once or twice a week there were workshops? Catcher drills on how to block and drop would have been great, how about stringing up 10 hoola-hoops on a fence (at strike zone) with ties and having kids pitch into them, from the flat grass, then they get 15 pitches from the mound?  How about lines of kids reviewing hitting mechanics on the grass, having their swings corrected by coaches, and then each getting 20 pitches in the cage with a coach? I would have LOVED to have paid $5 a workshop for my kid to rotate around those stations....and that would have covered the 2 hour fee for the paid coaches that came in....maybe also have a novice night where things are broken down even more...maybe even opened up to the community so anyone could bring their kid?  Maybe if they like what they see they would sign their kid up.

4. Inter-park play for older age groups would be nice.  Invite the park down the road for a scrimmage, or even a league play?  It's called little league but only playing in your own park isn't much of a league.

To the OP, short answer... Better coaching/instruction.  

Both of my sons played/play in a local PONY league, but they also played/play travel ball.  PONY provides an excellent opportunity to get extra reps and play with other kids in the community.  Travel ball provides the higher level instruction that they really need to remain competitive at a higher level than PONY can provide.  I don't think any of the coaches in our local league played beyond rec ball, so...

We had two competing leagues just within our district. Little League and a state wide league. Here was our experience. Sorry, it's a little long, but this is has been a huge issue in our area for 10+ years.

1. Little League was very political from the parents/board members. The coaches/parents were obsessed with determining the All Star coaches before the regular season even began. It left a very bad taste in our mouths.

2. The LL drafting rules were very easy to get around and mess with, so that's exactly what people did. There was one year where the league had to redraft teams three times because something was wrong. That is frustrating. Our local LL also passed rules making it impossible for kids to play in any other league or on any other team. That sent many of the more competitive kids elsewhere.

3. Parents in our area think that if their kid gets picked as an "All Star" they are the best player around. They can't see the big picture of league competitiveness or how their kid has actually progressed. Fast forward to high school, and there is utter shock when the kid who has been an All Star every year gets cut from the HS team.

4. We moved to the competing league when my son was 10. The rules were slightly different, there were no "All Star" teams and kids got a chance to make State with their entire team. However, even this league is starting to die out as travel ball becomes more common (we are behind the rest of the country in the move toward travel ball).

5. Finding quality volunteers is a total pain and a lack of volunteers means the death of the league. We just shut down our league because we could not get any parents to be consistent partners. The LL is still operating, but having a heck of time with volunteers and finding coaches. Some people are coaching two teams. It doesn't make for a pleasant experience for most people.   

6. Playing good competition is important. If the best players are playing travel ball, then rec kids aren't facing the best competition. The LL players in our area really had no idea that they weren't playing against good competition. They thought they were in the competitive league because they had the prettiest fields and the shiniest gear. Once they reached HS, they had to play against kids they had never seen before and it was demoralizing for many of them. Many have told me that they would do things differently if they understood the system better.

6. As a parent, I would rather pay for a consistent coaching and training environment. I am fortunate to be in a position to afford that. I feel for the families that cannot do that, especially since most travel programs are at least a 30 minute drive from our area.

I would agree 100% that the kids who do stay in rec ball have no idea how many really good travel ball kids there are and they usually don't have near the level of training that the TB kids have.

 My sons high school baseball team had some "summer workouts" open to any and all.  There were two rec ball kids from the park my son use to be at from 6u-9u in the group of rising 9th graders.  My son fielded a ball in deep left then threw it to second base, it landed in the kids glove, and the runner was out. One of the Rec ball kids yelled to him "you forgot to hit your cutoff".  The outfield coach came over to my son and said softly "you did the right thing, if you can make that throw, which you obviously can, then you make the throw.  That other kid just plays a different kind of baseball, don't pay attention to him."

Kind of sums up rec vs. travel in my neck of the woods.

Here's why....10 yo all-stars.

At all-star practice.  Coach/Dad (me) decked out in all red all-star practice jersey/gear/shoes et el.  Son is playing first base in infield drills.  Third baseman keeps throwing the ball wildly, not even coming close to first.  Son keeps lolligagging to the fence to pick up the balls.  I'm yelling at him to hustle, play like an all-star.  And looking back I was a yeller.

After the next ball landed against the fence, this conversation occurred:

Me:  "Hustle up, son!"

Son: "After all-stars, I'm never playing little league again."

Me: "What? C'mon, you gotta hustle if you want to go to State!"

Son: "I'm finished with this after all-stars.  I'm going to tryout for another team."

Me: "We will talk about it after all-stars.  But if we win District and Bi-District and then win state!  Will you play next year?"

Son: ...looking at me as if I'm nuts.... "I'm done after this."

We didn't win state or bi-district, lost in district finals.  Last time I coached baseball.  He tried out for another team, made it, went to USSSA Elite 32 with an 11U team, lost in Semi's, been "travel" ball ever since.

I've learned a lot about myself through my son.

My son stopped playing Little League because he didn't think it was as much fun as Travel Ball.

At the pre-teen age group, to me it should be about the kids having fun, enjoying the game, learning the lessons that come with sports participation, and making new friends.

I have no idea how to attract more kids to Little League.  

Not to beat a dead horse, but my son is willing to go to an aau/club team to get better and play better competition.  He is 11 and I asked him if he is willing to go even if his other buddies don't do it.  Without any hesitation he stated "yes".  He wants to improve his skills even if that means leaving his buddies behind and making new friends.

My experience in my local area.  

2016 played PONY and was a regular all star through 7th grade.  He joined a 13u baseball team as soon as the 7th grade middle school season ended.  Played all summer/fall and was given excellent instruction.  The teams(s) were run by a few local HS coaches.  Didn't win a whole lot, but learned a ton.  Rec league looked down on him for playing travel ball and even benched him saying he was getting enough baseball with his travel team and the others that only played PONY should play ahead of him because that's all the baseball they get (yes really).  He didn't go back to PONY until he wanted to get a few reps with his friends in a colt league.  Played one summer after his sophomore year.  From 8th grade until graduation, he took advantage of every HS practice, open field time, open hitting time, etc.  he was pretty much with his HS coach more than he was with us.  He also played a few summers with a local/regional travel team for exposure.  

2020 played PONY the same time his older brother was.  He is much more talented on the baseball field, at a yonger age, than his older brother was.  He even played this last spring.  The league still feels the same way about playing travel ball, but we don't take it personally.  2020 gets his reps in with his friends (who didn't make the middle school team), has fun, and goes home happy at the end of each game.  He also takes full advantage of the HS coach and his summer workouts, open hitting, open field, etc (thanks to his older brother).  He played/s for a travel team as well.  But we don't get wrapped around the axel with it.  We are blessed with a great HS coach who has a great program for developing players.  

So you see.., Rec, TB, and School Ball all have their place.  And yes, you can take advantage of all of them.  Don't turn your nose up to any of them.  They are all reps that your kid wouldn't get, otherwise. 

Here is the perfect example of why I want to leave our local team.  This just happened last night as well. My 11 year old has only played 3rd base 2x in the last 16 innings (3 games including last night's).  He is no worse then the one kid who currently plays there and way better then the other kid who gets time at 3rd.  He has also only pitched one inning in 18 games.  He had a hitting lesson the other day where a coach from a prospective club was watching and asked him if he could seem him pitch.  My son did and they were shocked he wasn't pitching for the team he currently plays on.  Mind you he is not the fastest pitcher currently but he is decent and has great accuracy.  Again, bless the current coach for volunteering his time, but come on!  There is no 11 year on our team that is so good he needs to be at 3rd and none so bad they shouldn't play third (although the second kid is close - he is afraid of the ball).  I pray to the good Lord he takes care of my son and helps me find a good fit for him next year.  We have this weekend and next and then we are done for the season. 

Sorry, I forgot to mention the other 13 times have been in the outfield or sitting.

Instead of fighting TB our local LL embraced it. They go so far as to make the LL schedule as TB friendly as possible. They schedule age groups every other Saturday off. So this saturday TB and CP play and Minors and Majors are off. The next Saturday its reversed. So any rec player who wants to double down and play TB can play every other weekend without missing Rec games.

The year my youngest was a league age 12 year old, of the 12 kids on his rec team, 10 played some sort of TB.

The league is thriving and has won several State Championships at several age levels over the last 8 years. About 95% of the kids on last years Varsity of the nearest HS (an AAAA school that has been a top 10 school statewide the last few years)  came up through that LL.