Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Doh! She didn't say "push off" did she? Here we go again 
I'm guessing the proponent of the head first slide has never received a face full of catcher's shin guards. That's when my son stopped sliding head first into home. Stopped him like Wile Coyote hitting a wall.
I think his analysis is correct.
I still see players sliding head first into first and that is a mistake for mutliple reasons imho. The reason players slide into second and third is to SLOW themselves down. Otherwise, if they over-run the bag, by rule they can be tagged out. Why would you want to slow yourself down (apply drag to your body) going to first base when there is no penalty for over-run? I'll get back to that in a second.
I suppose one could argue that while someone was diving in the air, there would be less drag on the body than if the feet were running along the ground. Thus, if you timed your dive perfectly to coincide with touching first base, you could arrive there quicker than someone who ran through the bag. This might be true but it is a highly dangerous maneuver imho.
Without working out the mathematics of it here, it would place hundreds if not thousands of pounds of force on the wrist, arm, and shoulder. Kenny Lofton tried it in the playoffs one year and SEVERELY dislocated his shoulder that required major surgery and physical therapy to repair. It has happened to others diving back to the bag to avoid the pick off play. The human body is not made to withstand those type of forces so I would still recommend running through the bag.
There are no absolute rules in life however. Sometimes, the first baseman will be pulled off the bag due to an errant throw and attempt to tag the runner. In that case, it may make some sense to slide into first to avoid the tag.
I cannot help myself from posting on this topic. Sliding into first is a pet peave of mine. Running through it will get you there the quickest and also keep you in one piece to play another day.
I still see players sliding head first into first and that is a mistake for mutliple reasons imho. The reason players slide into second and third is to SLOW themselves down. Otherwise, if they over-run the bag, by rule they can be tagged out. Why would you want to slow yourself down (apply drag to your body) going to first base when there is no penalty for over-run? I'll get back to that in a second.
I suppose one could argue that while someone was diving in the air, there would be less drag on the body than if the feet were running along the ground. Thus, if you timed your dive perfectly to coincide with touching first base, you could arrive there quicker than someone who ran through the bag. This might be true but it is a highly dangerous maneuver imho.
Without working out the mathematics of it here, it would place hundreds if not thousands of pounds of force on the wrist, arm, and shoulder. Kenny Lofton tried it in the playoffs one year and SEVERELY dislocated his shoulder that required major surgery and physical therapy to repair. It has happened to others diving back to the bag to avoid the pick off play. The human body is not made to withstand those type of forces so I would still recommend running through the bag.
There are no absolute rules in life however. Sometimes, the first baseman will be pulled off the bag due to an errant throw and attempt to tag the runner. In that case, it may make some sense to slide into first to avoid the tag.
I cannot help myself from posting on this topic. Sliding into first is a pet peave of mine. Running through it will get you there the quickest and also keep you in one piece to play another day.
I've often wondered if a head first slide into first is faster than running through the base.
If it IS quicker, the situations that might warrant it are still rare. For instance, to beat out a double play that would be the last out in a close game. I agree there are risks, but if a headfirst dive can save that out in a critical situation, then I applaud the hustle of the player who does it.
As for headfirst sliding into home - RJM: the whole point of the headfirst slide is that it makes it easier to AVOID the catcher. Why would he headfirst slide straight into the shin guards? The headfirst slide to home allows the runner to slide very wide and still touch the plate. It is a key play that has won many games.
If it IS quicker, the situations that might warrant it are still rare. For instance, to beat out a double play that would be the last out in a close game. I agree there are risks, but if a headfirst dive can save that out in a critical situation, then I applaud the hustle of the player who does it.
As for headfirst sliding into home - RJM: the whole point of the headfirst slide is that it makes it easier to AVOID the catcher. Why would he headfirst slide straight into the shin guards? The headfirst slide to home allows the runner to slide very wide and still touch the plate. It is a key play that has won many games.
Sliding into first is pretty silly unless you are avoiding a tag. The only proof I need is to watch a track meet. When professional sprinters and other runners start diving to the finish line instead of running through it because it is faster I will believe that diving is better. 
Rob,
As you may be aware them thar catchers is purty darn tricky. They move and put their shin thingys in your way.
As you may be aware them thar catchers is purty darn tricky. They move and put their shin thingys in your way.
The explanation given in the article in the OP is correct at all 4 bases-- assuming that the sole goal is to touch the base as soon as possible. But is a player willing to launch himself in a headfirst, arm fully extended dive toward the bag, timed so that his body makes contact with the ground just as his hand touches the bag? I hope not! As CD points out, the loads on the body are pretty large, and of course the player has no directional control once he begins his dive.
Doughtnutman,
In track, the runner "crosses the line" when his chest breaks the vertical plane of the finish line. So diving to the track at the finish would give up something like the length of his arms. But still one sees world class sprinters/hurdlers "lean" at the line. Actually leaning enough so that the runner loses his balance and falls to the surface of the track won't be done intentionally more than once--unlike baseball fields, track surfaces aren't designed for sliding!
Doughtnutman,
In track, the runner "crosses the line" when his chest breaks the vertical plane of the finish line. So diving to the track at the finish would give up something like the length of his arms. But still one sees world class sprinters/hurdlers "lean" at the line. Actually leaning enough so that the runner loses his balance and falls to the surface of the track won't be done intentionally more than once--unlike baseball fields, track surfaces aren't designed for sliding!
Glove,
But their legs never stop driving through the line. It takes them 40-50 meters to stop after a 100 meter race. If they could gain 1/1000 of a second they would dive.
But their legs never stop driving through the line. It takes them 40-50 meters to stop after a 100 meter race. If they could gain 1/1000 of a second they would dive.
My son slid wide and the catcher still blocked him. I prefer the feet first "slide by and reach back" for home.quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I've often wondered if a head first slide into first is faster than running through the base.
If it IS quicker, the situations that might warrant it are still rare. For instance, to beat out a double play that would be the last out in a close game. I agree there are risks, but if a headfirst dive can save that out in a critical situation, then I applaud the hustle of the player who does it.
As for headfirst sliding into home - RJM: the whole point of the headfirst slide is that it makes it easier to AVOID the catcher. Why would he headfirst slide straight into the shin guards? The headfirst slide to home allows the runner to slide very wide and still touch the plate. It is a key play that has won many games.
quote:I prefer the feet first "slide by and reach back" for home.
The problem with that slide is it isn't anywhere near as quick to the plate as a headfirst slide. It gives the catcher a LOT more time to get the ball and the tag down.
Just depends how much you really want the run, I guess.
It allows the runner to go wider. It also provides higher odds the runner will be able to get up and play. It's not a matter of wanting it. It's a matter of sensibility. Slide head first into catchers all season and I'll bet all season will be shorter than the team's season.quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:quote:I prefer the feet first "slide by and reach back" for home.
The problem with that slide is it isn't anywhere near as quick to the plate as a headfirst slide. It gives the catcher a LOT more time to get the ball and the tag down.
Just depends how much you really want the run, I guess.
I don't much care for the idea of playing not to get hurt. My son has slid head first literally hundreds of times into home and other bases. Could he get hurt? Sure.
But start down the path of approaching the game in a way to prevent injury, and I am not sure where that path leads.
I guess our two kids play a different brand of ball.
But start down the path of approaching the game in a way to prevent injury, and I am not sure where that path leads.
I guess our two kids play a different brand of ball.
I saw a kid in a wheelchair last fall that slid into home head first. paralized from waist down.I dont like sliding into home head first.Catchers are big and blocking hard, way to easy to get hurt.
Did anyone notcie how much they slid head first into home in the college world series? I can't recall. I have rarely ssen guys sliding into home head first.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I still see players sliding head first into first and that is a mistake for mutliple reasons imho. The reason players slide into second and third is to SLOW themselves down. Otherwise, if they over-run the bag, by rule they can be tagged out. Why would you want to slow yourself down (apply drag to your body) going to first base when there is no penalty for over-run? I'll get back to that in a second. I suppose one could argue that while someone was diving in the air, there would be less drag on the body than if the feet were running along the ground. Thus, if you timed your dive perfectly to coincide with touching first base, you could arrive there quicker than someone who ran through the bag. This might be true but it is a highly dangerous maneuver imho.
Without working out the mathematics of it here, it would place hundreds if not thousands of pounds of force on the wrist, arm, and shoulder. Kenny Lofton tried it in the playoffs one year and SEVERELY dislocated his shoulder that required major surgery and physical therapy to repair. It has happened to others diving back to the bag to avoid the pick off play. The human body is not made to withstand those type of forces so I would still recommend running through the bag.
There are no absolute rules in life however. Sometimes, the first baseman will be pulled off the bag due to an errant throw and attempt to tag the runner. In that case, it may make some sense to slide into first to avoid the tag.
I cannot help myself from posting on this topic. Sliding into first is a pet peave of mine. Running through it will get you there the quickest and also keep you in one piece to play another day.
And yet I seem to be seeing more and more of these ill advised dives into first, three years after this was written.
Has there been any recent analysis or data to suggest what a waste of time diving into first is?
Well Said ClevelandDad... Players should always speed through 1b. Sliding Head first is dangerous for the fingers, nose and eyes. I have a permanent scar on my nose from a Head First Slide into 2b over 20 years ago. Yes, I was safe but I had to leave the game to bandage up the deep cut. Now I Umpire HS Baseball and I hate watching kids slow down to get to 1b.
Surely someone here remembers Cory Hahn who just last year as an absolute stud freshman at Arizona State slide head first into second base and was paralyzed? I am pretty sure everyone who knew him or even read of the situation would rather he have been out then paralyzed.... some risks are simply not worth taking. I recently read a wonderful story on how his father has given up his life to live with his son so he can get his degree. Baseball but a distant memory for this family.
Rob, I bet even/especially his coaches would rather have had him play not to get hurt then lose him completely and watch as he battles to stay afloat in a new existence.
Rob, I bet even/especially his coaches would rather have had him play not to get hurt then lose him completely and watch as he battles to stay afloat in a new existence.
.
Here is that article calisportfan.
.
- "I recently read a wonderful story on how his father has given up his life to live with his son so he can get his degree. Baseball but a distant memory for this family."
Here is that article calisportfan.
.
It is a dilemma...No one ever taught my guy to go head first, and he seems to do so with some thought. Typically he employs pop-up slides, but on close plays he will lay out. He dislocated a finger in the Coastal Plains League this past summer going into 3rd.
I have seen him go headfirst into home several times this year, the catcher is always in front of the plate looking to sweep with the tag.
I am sure if the catcher was positioned to block the plate he would go feet first.
I guess a significant problem could be if the catcher changed his position while a player is preparing to dive in, and find shin guards where there were none before he committed to the slide.
At 22 it is hard, if not impossible for me as a dad to change the way he plays. It is his game now, just pray he comes out the other side intact.
Thanks for sharing that gotwood, I posted it to my facebook...maybe someone I know will see it.
I have seen him go headfirst into home several times this year, the catcher is always in front of the plate looking to sweep with the tag.
I am sure if the catcher was positioned to block the plate he would go feet first.
I guess a significant problem could be if the catcher changed his position while a player is preparing to dive in, and find shin guards where there were none before he committed to the slide.
At 22 it is hard, if not impossible for me as a dad to change the way he plays. It is his game now, just pray he comes out the other side intact.
Thanks for sharing that gotwood, I posted it to my facebook...maybe someone I know will see it.
Thank you GotWood. I enjoyed it as much the second time around. Just a reminder about what's really important and it truly isn't avoiding making an out! Amazing people, Cory Hahn and his father!
.
Yes indeed!
(Mark Boster/Los Angeles Times)
.
Yes indeed!
(Mark Boster/Los Angeles Times)
.
We were always taught "in the day" to stay on ourfeet, take one more step, rather than dive in the outfield OR in a slide.
It was promoted from both a safety perspective and that one more step is much the same as diving without the potential of injury AND, you remain in a sound athletic position to throw the baseball or advance another base.
Certainly today, that teaching has changed and head first slides are all the rage. Although I would concur that you get there slightly quicker head first than feet first, I'm not convinced you arrive quicker than if you stayed on your feet (thinking of first or home here). If you are running full tilt you must shift your weight down to prepare to dive and when you do that you definitely slow propulsion toward the bag IMHO.
I prefer Jr. stay on his feet in the outfield and on the bases and slide feet first to avoid a tag and slow his body. The problem for many athletes TODAY is that they lack flexibility to reach to the ground and scoop a ball off the turf at full speed (just can't bend) without falling or diving. I prefer promoting, speed, flexibility and good athletic balance rather than diving and risking serious shoulder, arm or head injuries from the ground or a defensive player.
It was promoted from both a safety perspective and that one more step is much the same as diving without the potential of injury AND, you remain in a sound athletic position to throw the baseball or advance another base.
Certainly today, that teaching has changed and head first slides are all the rage. Although I would concur that you get there slightly quicker head first than feet first, I'm not convinced you arrive quicker than if you stayed on your feet (thinking of first or home here). If you are running full tilt you must shift your weight down to prepare to dive and when you do that you definitely slow propulsion toward the bag IMHO.
I prefer Jr. stay on his feet in the outfield and on the bases and slide feet first to avoid a tag and slow his body. The problem for many athletes TODAY is that they lack flexibility to reach to the ground and scoop a ball off the turf at full speed (just can't bend) without falling or diving. I prefer promoting, speed, flexibility and good athletic balance rather than diving and risking serious shoulder, arm or head injuries from the ground or a defensive player.
My son went head first as soon as he was done with LL. It came naturally. He didn't looked awkward. But he gave up headfirst into home after getting a face full of shin guards on a good block.
I know two players, one in HS and one in college, who suffered season-threatening thumb injuries sliding head first. I really wish they'd stop.
IMHO there are is only one reason to slide into first, a throw down the line towards home where there is a collision that would endanger both the first baseman and batter / runner about to happen. A dive towards foul territory with a softball style slide by touch of first base to avoid a tag is in order.
The case of the ASU player was tragic. He was stealing second and slid head first. The throw tailed towards the first base side and the SS moved that way with a planted foot. Cory Hahn's head collided with the SS's planted leg. Both went down but despite many prayers, only one got up.
The case of the ASU player was tragic. He was stealing second and slid head first. The throw tailed towards the first base side and the SS moved that way with a planted foot. Cory Hahn's head collided with the SS's planted leg. Both went down but despite many prayers, only one got up.
Something to think about...
The ball is hit in the gap. The outfielder can not get his feet to the ball. How does he make the catch?
The ball is hit in the gap. The outfielder can not get his feet to the ball. How does he make the catch?
quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I know two players, one in HS and one in college, who suffered season-threatening thumb injuries sliding head first. I really wish they'd stop.
Papi,
What caused the thumb injuries? I need ammo.
Because he can't catch the ball with his feet?quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Something to think about...
The ball is hit in the gap. The outfielder can not get his feet to the ball. How does he make the catch?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Something to think about...
The ball is hit in the gap. The outfielder can not get his feet to the ball. How does he make the catch?
I don't see the problem with diving to catch a ball. Diving on the basepaths is the issue because there is a base and/or a player to run into with fingers, wrists, shoulder, head, etc.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I know two players, one in HS and one in college, who suffered season-threatening thumb injuries sliding head first. I really wish they'd stop.
Papi,
What caused the thumb injuries? I need ammo.
I only saw one of the plays. He slid into second on a steal. MIF blocked the base with his leg and jammed his leg into the oncoming left hand of the baserunner.
ESPN did a whole study on whether it is faster to slide head first into 1st base and it was found that running through the bag is faster. Comming into Home plate is a different story because there is almost always a situation involved.
PG,
There are absolutely balls that require diving to have a chance of catching. There are a lot more dives than there are balls that require diving to catch, including dives for balls that are already past the fielder or well out of reach. Even though some people didn't like Garret Anderson's approach as compared to Darin Erstad's, Anderson had a longer and more productive career than the incredibly talented hard playing Erstad. I doubt Erstad could have or would have played any other way, but a more measured approach probably would have lengthened his career and made him more valuable to the teams he played on in the long run.
The headfirst dive into first base unless a runner is somehow reacting to a bad throw to avoid a tag (may not even be possible) is purely for show or because a coach has taught a player the wrong thing.
There are absolutely balls that require diving to have a chance of catching. There are a lot more dives than there are balls that require diving to catch, including dives for balls that are already past the fielder or well out of reach. Even though some people didn't like Garret Anderson's approach as compared to Darin Erstad's, Anderson had a longer and more productive career than the incredibly talented hard playing Erstad. I doubt Erstad could have or would have played any other way, but a more measured approach probably would have lengthened his career and made him more valuable to the teams he played on in the long run.
The headfirst dive into first base unless a runner is somehow reacting to a bad throw to avoid a tag (may not even be possible) is purely for show or because a coach has taught a player the wrong thing.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
The headfirst dive into first base unless a runner is somehow reacting to a bad throw to avoid a tag (may not even be possible) is purely for show or because a coach has taught a player the wrong thing.
AMEN!
There are many reasons NOT to slide or dive head first.
However, if your life depended on getting from point A to simply touching point B, I believe most people would dive head first at point B.
Football receivers make diving catches because it's the only way they can reach the ball. This is even true on balls that are waist high. If they could really get to the spot (ball) quicker by running straight up, they could easily make the catch without diving.
However, if your life depended on getting from point A to simply touching point B, I believe most people would dive head first at point B.
Football receivers make diving catches because it's the only way they can reach the ball. This is even true on balls that are waist high. If they could really get to the spot (ball) quicker by running straight up, they could easily make the catch without diving.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Football receivers make diving catches because it's the only way they can reach the ball. This is even true on balls that are waist high. If they could really get to the spot (ball) quicker by running straight up, they could easily make the catch without diving.
Aren't they diving to make a catch that is lower when they get there? I have to agree with earlier posters that diving to a point B is slower than running through point B (with point B being a fixed X axis point), its just that their hands need to be at point B 4 feet lower (Same x axis point - but 4 feet lower on the Y axis).
Where are our resident physics experts to properly explain what I am saying?
And if your premise is right, why wouldn't all 60 runners dive at the end?
I was referring to the ball being knee to waist high, not on or near the ground. If the feet could get there quicker than the hand, wouldn't their hand also be there in order to reach the ball?
If sprinters would dive through the finish line, they would risk serious injury. Many do lean through the finish line, in an attempt to get there quicker.
The key whether diving or leaning is to do it with perfect timing. If a big adjustment needs to be made it would definitly slow the runner down. It is the last stride before the target that allows the hand to get there before the next stride would get the whole body there.
IMO the "perfectly timed" dive will allow the hand to reach the target before the foot will. All bets are off if the dive is not perfectly timed. For sure it is more dangerous. This has been debated for years among knowledgeable baseball people. I do think most people believe running through the target (base) is quicker.
If sprinters would dive through the finish line, they would risk serious injury. Many do lean through the finish line, in an attempt to get there quicker.
The key whether diving or leaning is to do it with perfect timing. If a big adjustment needs to be made it would definitly slow the runner down. It is the last stride before the target that allows the hand to get there before the next stride would get the whole body there.
IMO the "perfectly timed" dive will allow the hand to reach the target before the foot will. All bets are off if the dive is not perfectly timed. For sure it is more dangerous. This has been debated for years among knowledgeable baseball people. I do think most people believe running through the target (base) is quicker.
ESPN top ten plays of the day show Paul Goldschmidt fielding a ball and then diving into first to beat the runner. There is some good evidence that diving is quicker. There is no way he would have made it standing up. At 6'0" tall I have an 8'0" reach, I say that falling leaping motion is better than a running stride. I agree with PGStaff that split second timing will make a difference as it does in every sport.
quote:Originally posted by mcmmccm:
ESPN top ten plays of the day show Paul Goldschmidt fielding a ball and then diving into first to beat the runner. There is some good evidence that diving is quicker. There is no way he would have made it standing up.
A first baseman diving into the bag would be faster because he doesn't want to run through the bag and get plastered by the baserunner. Standing up, the first baseman would have to slow down prior to tagging the base. Diving, he can let the base stop him when his hand makes contact.
I believe the runner should keep running because he gets to overrun the bag.
So maybe we're talking about a couple of different things here:
Batter/baserunner: faster to run through first or slide headfirst?
Baserunner heading to 2nd/3rd/Home: faster to slide headfirst or feet first?
Batter/baserunner: faster to run through first or slide headfirst?
Baserunner heading to 2nd/3rd/Home: faster to slide headfirst or feet first?