Why I Like Tim Lincecum

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
I have said before that I like Tim Lincecum's mechanics.

First, he does a great job of throwing with his entire body and not just his arm. Notice the tremendous hip/shoulder separation.





Second, notice the "W" in the photo below from today.



Lincecum is still a little too max effort for my tastes, but I think he's got a chance of being a 20-year guy.

This would be a good test for your theories. I think he will have arm problems due to the torque he puts on his back and shoulder, but I guess we'll see. If he trains right, I guess he might hold up.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
This would be a good test for your theories. I think he will have arm problems due to the torque he puts on his back and shoulder, but I guess we'll see. If he trains right, I guess he might hold up.

Near as I can tell, I think Tim Lincecum will generally be free of shoulder problems.

I need to see how his fastball moves (e.g. glove-side or arm-side run) before I render a verdict on his elbow.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
I need to see how his fastball moves (e.g. glove-side or arm-side run) before I render a verdict on his elbow.

FBs that run to glove side are cut. Natural FB movement is armside. This is a basic concept that eludes you.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
FBs that run to glove side are cut. Natural FB movement is armside. This is a basic concept that eludes you.

No it isn't.

I want to see which way his ball moves because it indicates whether he's pronating or supinating the ball through the release point. Pronating is good. Supinating is bad.

Also, I would say that glove-side run is more prevalent than arm-side run by a factor of something like 2 to 1.

tpg

quote:

(e.g. glove-side or arm-side run) before I render a verdict on his elbow

Do you care to go into further detail on this? Verdict on elbow based on fastball movement!? Whats the verdict on Mo Rivera and/vs. Brandon Webb.

quote:

Also, I would say that glove-side run is more prevalent than arm-side run by a factor of something like 2 to 1.

C'mon Chris. How is possible that 66% of all the pitchers you have ever seen have fastballs that cut as opposed to tail. Cutters are not very common. Cutters are usually forced, while tail can occur more naturally. I can think of one prospect that I have seen in the last 7 years that threw cut fastballs, and that was Casey Jannssen at UCLA (blue jays). Every one else had fastballs that went straight or tailed.

2 to 1 cut to tail? Its more realistic to say tailing fastballs are more prevalent then cut fastballs by 50 to 1.

painguy

Are you now Judge and Jury on pitchers since you are rendering verdicts ???

You are totally delusional

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
FBs that run to glove side are cut. Natural FB movement is armside. This is a basic concept that eludes you.

No it isn't.

I want to see which way his ball moves because it indicates whether he's pronating or supinating the ball through the release point. Pronating is good. Supinating is bad.

Also, I would say that glove-side run is more prevalent than arm-side run by a factor of something like 2 to 1.

And you wonder why people mock you? Please, dear God, say this to someone associated with MLB so they can laugh you off the field.

Your "prevalence" comment made me spit water on my moinitor. You owe me a new monitor. Also, you owe me for the time I have wasted to read your stuff. I am now dumber for having done so.

Pain you should have been a boxer. I have never seen a guy get hit in the head so many times and bounce back stronger than before.

Chris,

I admire all the research you're doing, but you should stick to the things you know the most about IMO. You're not gaining much steam with this last debate.

There are a few guys who throw a "natural" cutter, but sink and arm side run are the major fastball movements. And while "straight" might be the best for the arm, it's a killer to the career! There are many things that cause a baseball to rotate or spin in different ways... Grip, finger pressure, arm angle, etc... It's not always about supinating or pronating when it comes to the fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
C'mon Chris. How is possible that 66% of all the pitchers you have ever seen have fastballs that cut as opposed to tail.

He has 6 pitchers on his 12U team. 4 of them cut, 2 tail.

But the 4 are lefties so they actually tail.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
C'mon Chris. How is possible that 66% of all the pitchers you have ever seen have fastballs that cut as opposed to tail. Cutters are not very common. Cutters are usually forced, while tail can occur more naturally. I can think of one prospect that I have seen in the last 7 years that threw cut fastballs, and that was Casey Jannssen at UCLA (blue jays). Every one else had fastballs that went straight or tailed.

2 to 1 cut to tail? Its more realistic to say tailing fastballs are more prevalent then cut fastballs by 50 to 1.

I'm making a general statement.

FAR more pitchers are taught general cutting (glove-side) movement than general tailing (arm-side) movement.

Compare the number of pitchers who are taught a supination slider or curve versus a screwball or other pronated pitch. I'd say that 90 percent of pitchers are taught supination to 10 percent who are taught pronation.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
tpg

quote:

(e.g. glove-side or arm-side run) before I render a verdict on his elbow

Do you care to go into further detail on this? Verdict on elbow based on fastball movement!? Whats the verdict on Mo Rivera and/vs. Brandon Webb.

The idea is that pronation allows the Pronator Teres muscle to bear some of the load. By supinating, you focus the load on the UCL.

Pronation is indicated by arm-side run. Supination is indicated by glove-side run.

quote:

Pronation is indicated by arm-side run. Supination is indicated by glove-side run.

Kind of like this? Maddux=armside Mo=glove side



Notice how supinated Mo is and how pronated Maddux is...

quote:

I'm making a general statement.

FAR more pitchers are taught general cutting (glove-side) movement than general tailing (arm-side) movement.

Compare the number of pitchers who are taught a supination slider or curve versus a screwball or other pronated pitch. I'd say that 90 percent of pitchers are taught supination to 10 percent who are taught pronation.

What difference does it make how pitchers are taught to throw sliders, curves, and screwballs when talking about whether their fastball cuts or tails? These two seem unrelated to me.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Pronation is indicated by arm-side run. Supination is indicated by glove-side run.

Kind of like this? Maddux=armside Mo=glove side



Notice how supinated Mo is and how pronated Maddux is...

This is a dynamic process that won't be revealed by a still photo.

You have to see how their fastballs move.

Jake Peavy may have the best arm-side fastball run in the major leagues.

However, I think the fact that Maddux pronates, and has arm-side run as a result, explains his lack of elbow problems compared to Rivera.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
What difference does it make how pitchers are taught to throw sliders, curves, and screwballs when talking about whether their fastball cuts or tails? These two seem unrelated to me.

If people are generally being taught to supinate their pitches (e.g. to throw sliders) and are being told that pronating their pitches (e.g. throwing a screwball) will destroy their arms, then it's not a surprise that people will tend to prefer (consciously or not) supination.

Watch catchers throw the ball to second base and how the ball will sail into right field. Ever see one cut into left?

Watch outfielders throw and how the ball will sail to their arm side.

Watch the ss cut it loose and see how it sails to the arm side.

Virtually no one's "fastball" is cut naturally. Everyone pronates.

= Edited by moderator. =

Pronation is the natural movement for release of fastball, is it not?

This is why I like Oprah............

quote:

This is why I like Oprah............

Is it because she supinates or pronates....

Isnt it amazing how the "cyberspace cowboys" such as pain guy use terms they may not even know the true meaning of and continually quote books, web sites and people that also may know nothing?

In baseball it has to be REAL ,pain guy, not cyber gibberish

quote:

If people are generally being taught to supinate their pitches (e.g. to throw sliders) and are being told that pronating their pitches (e.g. throwing a screwball) will destroy their arms, then it's not a surprise that people will tend to prefer (consciously or not) supination.

Chris O'Leary

....... .......

Sounds like quite a sequence of events!

I'll pose a question to all of the pitching/throwing coaches here..........do any of you, or any of your coaches, or any of your associates teach your students/players to actively cut their throws instead of allowing the natural pronation of the arm to occur?

Actually, now that I think about it.........this is a waste of time.

EVERYONE......HAVE A GREAT FIRECRACKER 4th of July day!!!

I like Tim because he's a great story, the little engine that "could"! He's proof that you don't have to be 6'5" to throw hard and play mlb.( like WE didn't already know that!)

i think for learning general overhand throw/fastball mechanics, you want to try and teach/learn a pattern that will minimize the stress to the flexor mass attachment to the inner part of the throwing elbow.

i think the killer here is that poor mechanics involve muscling the arm and trying to add velocity by more emphasis on deep flexion then extension of the arm - deeper flexion than 90 degrees at thowing elbow, then extension to muscle/accelerate to release.

when you do this, the usual way to make the ball go to your target in the setting of so mucg arm extension is to then supinate or not pronate enough, or rapidlly supinate then pronate near rerlease.


then you get a combo of flexion/extension and pronation or excessive forearm twist during rapid acceleration that kills the attachment to the medial epicondyle/nearby growth center.

in general you need to teach/learn high level "buggy whip" type pattern where the body whips the arm loop so that the elbow dos not deeply flex and the rapid acceleration is primarily by internal rotation/ "staying on top of the ball".

this then fits with a full pronating release which can produce the desired pure underspin with the right "arm slot". better velocity. more consistent release point (translates to "command") and less elbow stress.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
I'll pose a question to all of the pitching/throwing coaches here..........do any of you, or any of your coaches, or any of your associates teach your students/players to actively cut their throws instead of allowing the natural pronation of the arm to occur?

Actually, now that I think about it.........this is a waste of time.

Simple question.

How many people teach the slider versus the screwball?

It isn't that unusual to see a 10yo cutting the ball all the time (1 or 2 in a league with 20 or so pitchers). Generally, they are taught to throw the ball correctly, although sometimes they will be allowed to keep doing so and never reach their potential.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
It isn't that unusual to see a 10yo cutting the ball all the time (1 or 2 in a league with 20 or so pitchers). Generally, they are taught to throw the ball correctly, although sometimes they will be allowed to keep doing so and never reach their potential.

This is due to the small size of their hands. It is the only way they can handle the baseball with any force.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
Near as I can tell, I think Tim Lincecum will generally be free of shoulder problems. I need to see how his fastball moves (e.g. glove-side or arm-side run) before I render a verdict on his elbow.

Chris, like I said before, you simply don't have enough experience throwing a baseball or teaching someone how to throw a baseball hard. I've tried to cut you some slack, but your advice based on your limited observations is bad advice.

Believe it or not, like redbird5 says, the majority of young kids, (especially the girls) who are new to throwing large objects like baseballs and softballs, release the ball with a cutter type spin on the ball due to the size of their hand and limited ability to have a firm grip on the ball with only two fingers behind the ball. Small hands typically have to use a five-finger grip. And out of the hand, the ball does not have backspin.

Two fingers behind the ball helps maintain backspin. Two fingers behind the ball laying parallel to a piece of tape wrapped around the ball, helps teach and maintain backspin. This is teaching to throw without supinating or pronating the arm before ball release.

I personally have to be careful how I grip a baseball. I must use a four seam grip to throw the ball straight. If I grip the ball with my fingers parallel to the seams and in the direction of the saddle loop, the ball will....with no exception....cut very late in an almost horizontal direction with backspin rotation. I can't begin to count the times I thought I was going to destroy another camera by gripping the ball this way.

It's absurd to think that glove side movement of the ball has to be intentional by supination, and that you rate someone’s arm durability on the movement of such throws. Glove side movement can have absolutely nothing to do with supinating to cut the throw, or early pronation (before ball release) to run the throw. Fingers can be behind the ball, and these movements can be solely dependent on the grip; finger pressure and finger position on the ball at ball release.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Watch catchers throw the ball to second base and how the ball will sail into right field. Ever see one cut into left?

Watch outfielders throw and how the ball will sail to their arm side.

Watch the ss cut it loose and see how it sails to the arm side.

Virtually no one's "fastball" is cut naturally. Everyone pronates.

= Edited by moderator. =

Many lefthanders have a natural cut when they throw the ball. I have no idea why, but they do. I'm sure one of you guys know why.

Many left-handers have natural tail, not cut. The ball goes back arm-side, not to glove-side.

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
Many left-handers have natural tail, not cut. The ball goes back arm-side, not to glove-side.

I have seen many lefthanders (mostly younger kids) that have cut (looks like a mini curve ball) while just throwing normally.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
Many left-handers have natural tail, not cut. The ball goes back arm-side, not to glove-side.

I have seen many lefthanders (mostly younger kids) that have cut (looks like a mini curve ball) while just throwing normally.

And Jennifer Aniston is interested in me.

You know, there's nothing wrong with debating a topic...but what is accomplished by being a complete @$$hole to someone else?

Every once in a while........Chameleon needs to take a time out and go sit in the corner.

quote:

You know, there's nothing wrong with debating a topic...but what is accomplished by being a complete @$$hole to someone else?

Wait, are you trying to tell me Jennifer Aniston is not interested in Chameleon?.....

quote:

Originally posted by SpringLions07:
You know, there's nothing wrong with debating a topic...but what is accomplished by being a complete @$$hole to someone else?

I keep forgetting that there are a few folks on here that have seen everything there is to see in baseball. But wait....I guess not! As a matter of fact, our travel ball team a couple of years ago had two assistant Coaches that threw BP and had trouble keeping the ball from running in on righthanders. Incidently, they both Pitched in College, although it was only Division II ball.

quote:

But wait....I guess not! As a matter of fact, our travel ball team a couple of years ago had two assistant Coaches that threw BP and had trouble keeping the ball from running in on righthanders.

This does not mean they threw cutters as pitchers. Having thrown a zillion+ bp pitches I know first hand that when I start to fatigue my hand will fall under and I start get around the ball. These are not cutters, but more like hanging sliders. It takes fastball hand speed to throw a cutter properly....A speed never reached while throwing BP.