Why is this a balk?

RHP doesn't have to "dismount" the rubber on a pick-off to first. He would have to step back off the rubber prior to "faking" a throw to first or something like that. If the RHP makes his move to 1B without stepping off, he must complete the throw to first. I think.

He can. In OBR, you can always step to the base and throw to the base. In Fed, you can step to the base and throw to the base from the stretch.

what made you think this was an illegal move?

quote:

Now why can't a RHP left front leg (no movement towards home, and heel doesn't breach rubber) step directly back towards first and throw...

I'm having trouble picturing this. Does he spin and then step forward toward 1B or does he step backward toward 1B and then spin?

Regardless, isn't the issue here that he lifts the leg before stepping to 1B (however it's done)?

He simply lifts his foot and swings it toward first. He does not have to disengage but if he doesn't then he has to throw to first.

I hope I am not confusing people with what I am about to put but if I am reading his description correctly what he is describing is a balk and I did see a player do this in a game,

Runner of first and a RHP. Has pivot (right) foot in contact with rubber and he comes to the set position with hands together at about chest level.

He raises his lead (left) foot up and then opens it up swinging to the left towards first base to pick off the runner.

I might be reading what he put wrong but when I read what he put this is the first thing that came to my mind after seeing it several years ago. It was Babe Ruth baseball and the guy umpiring just got out of jail like a month earlier and didn't call the balk. I picked my lawn chair up and never went back.

Well, I submit that there's just not enough detail in the OP to determine exactly what's happening here. This is why its so hard to 'judge' balks based on the typed word - its a HTBT, in most cases.

quote:

Well, I submit that there's just not enough detail in the OP to determine exactly what's happening here.

And, unless I'm terribly confused, I can't figure out how a RHP can possibly throw to 1B WITHOUT lifting his left foot.

What would be great is an online video tutorial with examples of what is and isn't a balk.

I can picture this all the way...but there is one problem. In order to step to first the pitcher would have some movement to the plate, so I have a balk. I cannot see this play happening ("twirling" to first, stepping to the bag) without making movement to the plate.

It seems the only way this can be done without stepping off is the "jump move" which has been interpreted as a legal move.

Does anyone follow my logic...again this is a HTBT moment, but I can't see how the pitcher would do this without making some motion to the plate, hence, a balk.

I am going to put this out there, and its not exactly 100% supportable....there are things in the rule book that are technically legal but are not in common practice....

For the most part, we all know that balks are HTBT. And that the calling of balks is based on the umpires education, experience and viewpoint. So at best the majority of balks are subjective....

Remembering that of the 30 balk offenses, the vast majority of us only call 5-6 different balks....

Here is where the not "100 % supportable" comes in.....have you ever seen this RHP step direct to first base in any college or Pro game?........I have not and knowing the competitive nature of this level of baseball if it could be done without a reasonable fear of being balked it would be widely taught and practiced by those players......

thoughts?

quote:

It seems the only way this can be done without stepping off is the "jump move" which has been interpreted as a legal move.

Can this be done AFTER the pitcher comes set? Or only before?

jump move can be done before or after coming set

quote:

Originally posted by johntaine21:
I can picture this all the way...but there is one problem. In order to step to first the pitcher would have some movement to the plate, so I have a balk. I cannot see this play happening ("twirling" to first, stepping to the bag) without making movement to the plate.

It seems the only way this can be done without stepping off is the "jump move" which has been interpreted as a legal move.

Does anyone follow my logic...again this is a HTBT moment, but I can't see how the pitcher would do this without making some motion to the plate, hence, a balk.

Without going into a lot of HTBT, if you are stating that the jump-turn is the ONLY legal way to throw to First from the set, I disagree.

LonBlue,
How else would you go to first without stepping off the rubber? With a runner a first and third fake to third and throw to first would do it, but besides this, how else? By the way, I thought about taking that out because it is very specific, and the word ONLY is very, and maybe to specific for any HTBT balk...haha

I have seen college pitchers step directly to 1B, from the stretch, and throw.

The rules are very clear that disengagement is NOT required before throwing to first. In OBR, neither from the stretch nor the windup. In FED, not required from the stretch.

As has been stated, there can be no feint in this case.

Yes, the left foot does have to come off the ground. However, the foot only comes a few inches off the ground and the step is directly to the bag. It is rather obvious that it is not a leg lift. A leg lift and swinging the raised knee over to the bag would get a balk call.

quote:

Originally posted by johntaine21:
jump move can be done before or after coming set

OK, but if he just lifts his left foot after coming set, he's committed to the plate.... correct?

No if he lifts his left leg he can still go to first in the case of the jump move.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
He simply lifts his foot and swings it toward first. He does not have to disengage but if he doesn't then he has to throw to first.

My bad. When the OP said "step directly back towards first and throw", the pick-off move Tom House teaches immediately popped into my mind. In this move, a RHP steps backward toward 1B with his posting leg. Then he pivots and throws. But I failed to notice that the OP also mentioned lifting the front leg.

quote:

Originally posted by johntaine21:
No if he lifts his left leg he can still go to first in the case of the jump move.

But doesn't the jump and the lifting of the left leg need to occur at the same time? In other words, if he lifts his left leg straight up as he would when going to the plate, can he still jump off his right foot and throw to first? Sorry if I sound confused, just want to make sure I understand this.

Lets stay on track here. From the set position a RHP can lift the leg and throw directly to 3rd and
a LHP can do the same to 1st-ALL LEGAL Now, a RHP from the set position lifts left leg steps directly back towards 1st and throws (get out of your chair and try it, its very easy). Is this a balk? The rules do not distinguish RHP vs LHP when throwing to a base, therefore by the book it should not be a balk. Yet most umps WILL call it a balk.

A little history: Many years ago I was coaching in the CABA world series 11u HS rules. Upon noticing that kids were breaking to 2nd as soon as the RHP lifted front foot I go to the rule book and see nothing that prohibits the RHP from making this step back move, so I taught it to my kids. Through 4 games we were picking kids off like flies. What made the move so effective is I would have the RHP show the STEP OFF move "BACK"! Then execute the STEP BACK move and get the out. So the other coaches start complaining and the Umpires had a big meeting about the move. We play a game the next day and sure enough it gets called a balk. I ask the ump why, he said we had a meeting and its a balk. But why? I ask. He said, it just is.
I have coached many years since then and have not used the move since. However, I have had some fabulous debates over the years with baseball guys and umpires regarding that move.
Now you might say it is deceipt because we show the
STEP OFF move to the runner and then execute the STEP BACK move for the out. I don't think it could be called that way and will explain later.

Now under the assumption that the STEP BACK move is a balk. (Note pia umps assertion that you do not see it in college or pro) Why is the LHP pitcher afforded such a huge advantage on holding runners on at 1st over a RHP?

Btw.. as funny as this may seem the most common answer to why the move is a balk is.... "IT JUST IS"

OK folks let er rip!

Triple dad, my first reaction is, "it just is" haha, but seriously, I can't see why this is not legal, it just is.( I think)

I am so lost and have no idea what anybody is saying anymore. My head hurts and I want to see video of exactly what we are talking about. I apologize for being dumb.

By the way what does HTBT mean when umpires put it on here - or is this a trade secret and you have to kill me if you told me?

quote:

Originally posted by johntaine21:
LonBlue,
How else would you go to first without stepping off the rubber? With a runner a first and third fake to third and throw to first would do it, but besides this, how else? By the way, I thought about taking that out because it is very specific, and the word ONLY is very, and maybe to specific for any HTBT balk...haha

Texan answered it well.

Imagine a RHP in the set, hands together at his chest/waist, non-pivot foot drawn up to his pivot foot, him peering over his left shoulder at the runner at First, but otherwise motionless (typical set position). Now, he lifts his non-pivot foot just enough to clear the ground, turns on his pivot foot, and throws to First WITHOUT a leg kick, or simulating his motion w his hands - all in one movement - no feint. When his non-pivot foot comes down, its pointed at First (distance and direction gained). Thats not a jump-turn, and IMO its not a balk. I see this move constantly, its not even difficult. No one I know balks it, unless the leg kicks up, he accidentally moves/leans toward Home just prior to the move, or his hands simulate the pitching motion.

Perhaps thats what the lesser-trained Pitchers are doing when they try this move, and they are (rightfully) getting balked. That doesnt mean the move cannot be done, or that its a balk by rule.

quote: Texan
Yes, the left foot does have to come off the ground. However, the foot only comes a few inches off the ground and the step is directly to the bag. It is rather obvious that it is not a leg lift. A leg lift and swinging the raised knee over to the bag would get a balk call.
----------------------------------------------------
You can lift the leg and still step DIRECTLY back to 1st.
I would agree you cannot swing the leg, cuz that would commit you to the plate.

LonBLue

Arm am not sure what you mean by leg kick. Is there anywhere in the rules that restricts how high the leg can lift? Lets assume the RHP is lifting the leg to the point where his thigh is horizontal to the ground and no movement towards home at all, the knee comes up and foot goes directly to first.

If you are saying this is a balk because the knee comes up simulating a pitch, then WHY is'nt it a balk for a LHP?

HTBT Had to be there.

A jump step and jab step are both considered legal and still in contact with the rubber if they throw it away.
Balks are very misunderstood. Many believe that there are different rules for FHP and LHP. As noted above there are not. Now I don't think there is a single person on here that would balk a LHP for stepping directly to first while engaged to the rubber. This is what makes a LHP so hard to get a lead on. Well, the RHP can do the exact same thing.

Sitch 1:
R1 and RHP. F1 sets, lifts his left foot and steps to first and throws. The is legal in all codes. This is not a move to home. The interp for stepping directly to first is anywhere between first and 45 degrees toward home. He doesn't have to get all the way around to first. This is what PIAA was alluding to in upper level games. They just don't get all the way around. If he lands short of the 45 or gets off balance and touches toward home then it's a balk.
Sitch 2:
Same R1. He breaks for second. The pitcher may lift his left foot, spin counterclockwise and throw to second. This is not a move to the plate or to first. If he hesitates or lands anywhere beside or in front of the rubber it is a balk.
These are interpretations in all codes, OBR, Fed and NCAA.

Edited for spelling and typos. Nothing new.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
You can lift the leg and still step DIRECTLY back to 1st.
I would agree you cannot swing the leg, cuz that would commit you to the plate.

For RHP:
Once set, if you lift the knee so that the foot is more than five or six inches off the ground and then swing toward first, better be prepared for the balk call because it probably will come.

I wouldn't try to tie a specific height to what is going to cause a balk. I understand what you are saying but what everyone has to remember is anything that can be interpreted as a move to the plate is what is going to cause the balk. The more he raises his leg the more likely he will make some type of kick in the direction of home. But the act of lifting and swinging is perfectly legal.

Picture it from U2 in A or R1.

R1 only.
You see the right heel go "up" it appears the pitcher has begun the motion to pitch.
If he suddenly "changes" directions with that foot, balk. Direction, not meaning left, right, up down. Rather the direction it's taking, as in where it's going. Lift it up, it's direction is to pitch.
IMO

If the first move is toward 1st, U2 & R1 see the heel coming back towards them first. No change of direction, a-ok, just like a slow jabstep.

Works the other way too, say RHF1 starts his right foot and heel backwards a bit, then lifts the RF and delivers home, smells like a balk too.

Starts one direction then changes and goes another, uh, uh.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
LonBLue

Arm am not sure what you mean by leg kick. Is there anywhere in the rules that restricts how high the leg can lift? Lets assume the RHP is lifting the leg to the point where his thigh is horizontal to the ground and no movement towards home at all, the knee comes up and foot goes directly to first.

If you are saying this is a balk because the knee comes up simulating a pitch, then WHY is'nt it a balk for a LHP?

This is a judgement call. There's no set height, but as MST so ably notes, the higher the leg goes, the greater the chances it will a)simulate the pitching motion and/or b) cause a movement toward home - both: balk.

You need to get the RHP/LHP distinction out of the discussion. You will not find such a distinction in the rules, because its not there. The rules could not care less if its RHP or LHP, they are the same.

I was specifically addressing johntaine21's apparent position that only the jump-turn is legal to throw a pickoff to First, because he feels that any other lifting of the non-pivot foot is by definition a commitment toward Home. This is not true. Any LHP/RHP embellishments are not of my making.....

Lonblue
That is my point, there is no distinction between the LHP/RHPin the rules, yet LHP's are given much more latitude in the leg lift. A LHP can bring his leg up to his balance point then step and throw directly to first. (I have never seen that called a balk because of the leg lift)
I challenge the coaches in this forum to have his
RHP lift the leg to his balance point then step directly to 1b and throw. I bet you know what will
happen. In fact, try it with a guy on 3b. hehe

Futhermore, you umps out there that are saying that the leg lift could be simulating a pitch I ask you this: Have you ever cald a balk(because of the leg lift) when the RHP pitcher pivots clockwise engaged to the rubber to throw to 2b. This is a very common move in HS and the majority of pitchers bring the leg up to a balance point when making that move.

Note: when discussing these moves Let's assume there is no movement to the plate by intent or accidental. Just a clean move.

quote:

You need to get the RHP/LHP distinction out of the discussion. You will not find such a distinction in the rules, because its not there. The rules could not care less if its RHP or LHP, they are the same.

I know this, that is the premise of this thread. Umpires will make "judgement" calls to balk a RHP making the step back move, yet will allow a LHP to make the same move and not call a balk.

Several post in this thread have already indicated they would balk on a leg lift(simulated pitch) on a RHP thowing directly to 1b due to the height of the lift. Someone mentioned the RHP lifting the leg just enough to pull it back to first, and someone else mentioned lifting the leg 5"-6" inches and its ok.

Umpires: So your next game when you see the LHP warming up you walk out & say: "be advised, when you make a move to 1b, if your right leg rises above 6" i'm gonna balk it" Can you imagine the look you are gonna get from the LHP!
Even better, just balk it when he does it, because he will, they all do! Now when the coach shoots out of the duggout like a wild bull demanding an explanation you say: " He raised his leg too high and simulated a pitch" hmmmm, that's going to go over well, considering the kid has made that move
a hundred times and never balked!

See the point? that is why the LHP vs RHP is
is applicable. There is no distinction in the rules, but in the game there is.

Tripledad:
If you read my posts I am trying to make some of the guys understand that there is no distinction in then rules for the move to first. Some feel there is and that is simply not true. Now, as you say there is in practical application. A RHP will be more likely to make a balk move the higher he raises his foot. This is because the higher he gets the more likely he will kick his foot out toward the plate. If he goes to first after doing so it will be a balk. Now a LHP does a full knee raise, if he kicks out toward first, he can still go home. This isn't a matter of a rule differnce but instead just because the direction they face. It would be the same going to third, the RHP has the advantage of either kicking out and either going to third or going home.
The references of a specific height or a jump step being the only legal move is flat incorrect. There are many myths involved with balks that are not generally dispelled in clinics because you can absolutely derail a clinic by getting into what ifs and why fors of balks. Most clinicians won't even discuss balks. I prefer to at least cover the basics in my clinics but you really have to be careful.

R3 only LH F1 rasises his front foot towards 1st, then turns and throws to 3rd, balk.

LH F1 leans back and steps his free foot towards 3rd and throws, ok.

Not any different for the LHer vs RHer.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
R3 only LH F1 rasises his front foot towards 1st, then turns and throws to 3rd, balk.

LH F1 leans back and steps his free foot towards 3rd and throws, ok.

Not any different for the LHer vs RHer.

jjk, maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying. If a LHP lifts straight up, no matter the height, he can still go to third. It is the same for a RHP going to first. My point has been that the higher they go the more likely they will do something wrong to make it a balk. The action itself is not.