Windup vs Stretch

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
No one I have met advocates style and indivuality with pitchers as much as me. At no time did I even remotely hint that every P is the same.

By assuming the slide step or any other move is equally bad for everyone, the implication is that everyone is the same.

I stand by what I said in that the slide step is a joke, and that there are far more effective ways to be quick to the plate.
It may well be your opinion, but since there are a lot of guys out there making millions of dollars using it, evidently there’s a lot of folks besides me who disagree with you.

Your just being far to general in you comments for me. You could say it probably isn’t the best thing to teach young kids. You could certainly continue to say there are other effective ways to control base running, and I’d certainly still agree. There are a heck of lot of things you “could” say.

But, how can you not even give the slightest thought that it is just another tool in the arsenal, and that there are P’s out there who can and do find it extremely useful?

Let's not forget that the slide step isn't just a way to be quicker to the plate. It's also a way to throw of the runner's timing - to keep him off balance. I believe there are better ways to be quicker to the plate. However, those ways may not be as visually obvious to the opposing team. Unless the opposing coach actually times the pitcher's delivery, he may not realize the pitcher is as quick as he is and, therefore, may get it in his head that they are going to try to run. Yes, you should be able to throw out their runners if your pitcher truly is quick to the plate. But I'd rather put the idea out of the opposing coach's head right from the get-go. That's why I don't mind showing a slide step early in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Let's not forget that the slide step isn't just a way to be quicker to the plate. It's also a way to throw of the runner's timing - to keep him off balance.
Very true.

I believe there are better ways to be quicker to the plate. However, those ways may not be as visually obvious to the opposing team. Unless the opposing coach actually times the pitcher's delivery, he may not realize the pitcher is as quick as he is and, therefore, may get it in his head that they are going to try to run.
If a player can execute well and not lose much, I don’t know that he could get quicker. But, a lot depends on the P. I’ve seen some P’s you could time with an hourglass from any positon.

but your thought is on track that unless the opposing coach is actually timing what’s going on, he really doesn’t know.

Yes, you should be able to throw out their runners if your pitcher truly is quick to the plate. But I'd rather put the idea out of the opposing coach's head right from the get-go. That's why I don't mind showing a slide step early in the game.
To me what’s important to remember is that not every runner who reaches 1st is gonna try to steal. Even an aggressive coach won’t send many leadfooted runners, even with a pitcher who’s slow to the plate and a catcher who doesn’t throw well. Outs are too precious to even take the chance.

OTOH, if the runner on 1st is really a good runner and fast, chances are ya ain’t gonna get him, unless both the P and C execute perfectly, and what are the chances of that happening?

So what it boils down to is that there are prolly only 5 or 6 players ya have to worry about at all, and only a few of them will be much of a threat to go in any but the most advantageous situations. Those are the guys who’s timing you want to screw up. Everybody else is gonna “normal” moves, but those threats are gonna see everything the P has in his arsenal.

Depending on the situation, mebbe it’ll be a full leg lift with a FB. Mebbe it’ll be a jab kick with a breaking pitch. Or maybe it’ll be a slide step with a CU. Then the next time everything will change.

That’s the part of the game not apparent to many but those calling the pitches, and those running the bases. But, the more things the P can do will just make him that much tougher to read.

Vary looks, vary timing. Have a decent time to the plate and a good catcher. Keep them uncomfortable and unable to get a read and thus unable to get a good jump. That is pretty much all it takes.

Let 'em call the steal. After two unsuccessful steal attempts and no successes, they pretty much quit running for as long as that pitcher is on the mound.

You certainly can use different deliveries as a means of holding runners, but you don't have to.

The most important thing is for the pitcher to throw his pitches. Too many pitchers get distracted with runners on. Often there is a strong correlation between the number of pick throws and the numbers of balls (as opposed to strikes) thrown.

scorekeeper

quote:

By assuming the slide step or any other move is equally bad for everyone, the implication is that everyone is the same.

I didnt assume anything, you did. I can think of only Tim Wakefield when I try to really find someone who has utilized the slide step exclusivley to his advantage. Then again, he throws 68mph.

scorekeeper

quote:

It may well be your opinion, but since there are a lot of guys out there making millions of dollars using it, evidently there’s a lot of folks besides me who disagree with you.

No one makes millions because of a slide step...maybe in spite of it, but not because of it. Go ahead and Google "pitching slide step" and see how many baseball people agree with you...

scorekeeper

quote:

Your just being far to general in you comments for me. You could say it probably isn’t the best thing to teach young kids. You could certainly continue to say there are other effective ways to control base running, and I’d certainly still agree. There are a heck of lot of things you “could” say.

I thought I was specific in describing the effects of timing, and how it relates to holding runners close. Read Texans last post, and that sums up how I feel about holding baserunners and what is really involved in doing so. Keeping runners from stealing dosnt revolve around their time to the plate (within reason as I have previously stated). This makes the slide step garbage. If you are recommending pitchers use slide steps, or are teaching it then you need to re-evaluate your thought process. Its a very weak and unessesary move.

I have used the slide step. I know first hand what a joke it is, and as a result I will never teach it to one of my pitchers. If a coach cant figure out a way to get them to be under 1.5 without using a slidestep then they need to find a gig.

scorekeeper

quote:

But, how can you not even give the slightest thought that it is just another tool in the arsenal.

I gave this alot of thought before I opted to never teach it again. Did you give the slide step even the slightest thought as you endorsed it? Calling the slide step another tool in the arsenal is a bit over stated. If "tools in the arsenal" were related to bullets, every other option to the slide step would be a magnum while the slide step itself was a blank. I dont have room for blanks in my arsenal.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The most important thing is for the pitcher to throw his pitches. Too many pitchers get distracted with runners on. Often there is a strong correlation between the number of pick throws and the numbers of balls (as opposed to strikes) thrown.

BINGO!!!!

Normally I say absolutely nothing to any player during a game, neither encouraging nor discouraging. I will clap for a great play or timely hit, but other than that, I let everyone else usually do all the talking.

However. There is one thing that always get me to screamin’, and its always at the poor P, even though he’s prolly not the one calling the signals.

When I see P’s with a substantial lead, playing games with the runners, I get flat out angry! One throw is OK, two is ok too. But when there’ bunches of throws, even to 2nd or fakes to 3rd when the run means absolutely nothing, it gets the ol’ juces flowin’.

We had a boy the last game who got flustered, and it could have caused serious problems.

Us at home leading 1-0 top of the 7th, 2 outs, runners on 1st and 3rd, and a 2-2 count on the batter. The runners are jumpin’ all over the place and the P is throwin’ over to 1st 2 times between every pitch, and there have been 2 Busbys.

Finally the boy comes set, looks over once, and the runner takes off. The P steps off, looks at 3rd, and the runner there is standing on the bag, so he runs toward the other runner. The 2B is ready to make a tag, and the SS is ready to back him up. The 1B is followin’ the runner going to 2nd.

The runner going to 2nd isn’t even looking at the P and he’s barreling toward the base, but the P keeps lookin’ at 3rd as he’s running toward 2nd. Finally the runner slides in without a throw, and I’m doin’ flip flops tryin’ not to scream at the kid that there were 2 outs, so all he had to do was get the runner trying to steal that he’d picked off!

But what can I say, he’s a 16YO Jr, and he lost track of what was goin’ on in all the excitement of the close game. While it’s happening, you wanna just scream, and when the play was over and he realized what had happened, the P just shook his head in that familiar unbelieving way that he’d just done something stupid!

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

I didnt assume anything, you did. I can think of only Tim Wakefield when I try to really find someone who has utilized the slide step exclusivley to his advantage. Then again, he throws 68mph.
How can you say you don’t assume anything? You say the slide step is a joke, and that implies it’s a joke for everyone, otherwise you’d have qualified the remark.

No one makes millions because of a slide step...maybe in spite of it, but not because of it. Go ahead and Google "pitching slide step" and see how many baseball people agree with you...
Didn’t say they made squat BECAUSE of the slide step. Said there were guys making millions who used it. If I was gonna Google anything and try to give it a fair chance, I’d be lookin’ for pitching, delivering a pitch, pitching with runners on, and probably a lot of other things too.

I thought I was specific in describing the effects of timing, and how it relates to holding runners close. Read Texans last post, and that sums up how I feel about holding baserunners and what is really involved in doing so. Keeping runners from stealing dosnt revolve around their time to the plate (within reason as I have previously stated). This makes the slide step garbage. If you are recommending pitchers use slide steps, or are teaching it then you need to re-evaluate your thought process. Its a very weak and unessesary move.

What he posted made perfect sense, and I didn’t see him resort to saying the slide step was garbage, or that it was of no value.

I would add though that if the team doesn’t have that good catcher, and not all P’s have that good time to the plate. Also, if they do call that steal and the attempts turn into stolen bases, there’ll very likely be a merry-go-round goin’ on when runners get on base.

You see I live in the real world where players aren’t perfect. You know the one where even Johnny bench and Pudge Rodriguez gave up stolen bases, and that was with ML pitchers on the mound.


I have used the slide step. I know first hand what a joke it is, and as a result I will never teach it to one of my pitchers. If a coach cant figure out a way to get them to be under 1.5 without using a slidestep then they need to find a gig.

Didja consider that perhaps you couldn’t master it because you didn’t have the necessary skills? (That was meant to be humorous) So you’re saying you’re better than every coach who has ever taught any pitcher to use that move, and that every pitcher that uses it is a fool. Did I miss something?

I gave this alot of thought before I opted to never teach it again. Did you give the slide step even the slightest thought as you endorsed it? Calling the slide step another tool in the arsenal is a bit over stated. If "tools in the arsenal" were related to bullets, every other option to the slide step would be a magnum while the slide step itself was a blank. I dont have room for blanks in my arsenal.
[/COLOR]Well, you’re obviously a MLPC, so who am I to disagree? Which team is it you coach. I’ll look for them to be in the WS this season. [/COLOR]

scorebooker

quote:

Didja consider that perhaps you couldn’t master it because you didn’t have the necessary skills? (That was meant to be humorous) So you’re saying you’re better than every coach who has ever taught any pitcher to use that move, and that every pitcher that uses it is a fool. Did I miss something?

The pitcher is not a fool, just the guy teaching him this move is. And yes, you missed something. Maybe thats why you have been relagated to the scorebook and not the bullpen (that was meant to be humorous) .

scorebooky

quote:

so who am I to disagree?

This is what im trying to tell you. Im glad to see we are now on the same page.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
The pitcher is not a fool, just the guy teaching him this move is. And yes, you missed something. Maybe thats why you have been relagated to the scorebook and not the bullpen (that was meant to be humorous) .

I wasn’t relegated to anything. I chose to do it because most coaches aren’t sharp enough to do it correctly.

scornbooker

quote:

I wasn’t relegated to anything. I chose to do it because most coaches aren’t sharp enough to do it correctly.

Im sure your comments go a long way with coaches who read posts in this forum. Good luck with your upcoming season, and thanks for all the insightful opinions.

quote:

I wasn’t relegated to anything. I chose to do it because most coaches aren’t sharp enough to do it correctly.

scorekeeper,

Trying to understand....

Your above comment... What does it mean?

1. You are much sharper than most coaches?

2. Most coaches are not very sharp?

3. Coaches are not capable of keeping an accurate scorebook?

4. You didn't mean to say that?

One thing for sure... In most cases a scorekeeper replaces another scorekeeper (often a parent at high school and youth level). I have not seen many coaches who actually keep the official scorebook. Then again, maybe I haven't been paying close attention.

Bottom line... It sure is easy to say the wrong thing sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
1. You are much sharper than most coaches?
Not at all, at least if you’re talking about intelligence.

2. Most coaches are not very sharp?
About scorekeeping they aren’t. It doesn’t mean they’re stupid, it means they have way too many other things on their mind to do a good job of keeping score.

3. Coaches are not capable of keeping an accurate scorebook?
Most are totally capable of doing it, but to do it correctly, it takes a lot more concentration than any coach can or should give it during a game.

4. You didn't mean to say that?
Didn’t mean to say what? I said exactly what I meant to say, but perhaps could have chosen a better work than sharp. I was thinking about the kind of focus it takes to keep an accurate score sheet, and focus turned into “sharp” in my mind. In retrospect, I prolly should have just said focused.

One thing for sure... In most cases a scorekeeper replaces another scorekeeper (often a parent at high school and youth level). I have not seen many coaches who actually keep the official scorebook. Then again, maybe I haven't been paying close attention.

I’ve seen it run the gamut. In HS, I’ve seen players given the book, and I’ve seen coaches try to do it too. I’ve even seen HC’s try to do it on occasion, and that really doesn’t work at all! First of all, all the rule books pretty much agree that the OSK should be somewhere other than a dugout, but even a team book should be someplace in the stands.

Look at NFHS rule 3-3-1i.

A coach, player, substitute, attendant, or other bench personnel shall not:
have any object in possession in the coach’s box other than a stopwatch, rule book, scorebook, a Personal Digital Assistant(PDA), or comparable electronic score-recording device which shall be used for scorekeeping purposes only.

Does that sound like it doesn’t happen? But don’t feel bad! SK’s don’t mind not being noticed, in fact, I’d be a happy camper if no one ever noticed me!

You are correct that usually SK’s aren’t exactly thought of as a “member” of the team, but if anyone would look at any rule book, they are a game official, and should at least get similar training and get given equal credit to the umpires. Not because their job is as hard, but a lot of it does require good judgment, and to do a proper job of scoring, an SK MUST know the rules.

The original SK at my son’s school was the HVC’s dad. For 3 years, until the coach had to quit, that old dude showed up for every game. When he stopped doing it, my buddy took over, I took over for him, and some mom I’d tried to teach how to do it, took over for me.

The new coach asked my friend to compile school baseball records for the banquet at the end of the year to try to recognize the achievements. When he and I got into the books to try to get all the things we needed for the different records, we found out how bad things COULD be by leaving it up to the coach.

He had his dad make sure there was an RBI for every run the team scored. There were almost no errors scored for opponents, and tons for our team. The result was, great BA’s for us, and low ERA’s for our P’s, and that’s just part of what was wrong.

It took the two of us nearly a month to go back over every single game and try to get everything marked correctly. We tried, but I’m sure the results were no better than 80-85% valid, if that. He didn’t track fielding moves, pinch runners, courtesy runners, and a whole lot of other stuff. IOW, it was horrible!

But, we did get it done. Here’s the results at that time if anyone wants to see. http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/Husky2004.doc

The thing is, that isn’t the exception, and it’s the main reason no one with much intelligence gives much weight to HS stats! They can’t be trusted because they aren’t valid!

I’ve had lots of coaches after me to get my software, and I’d gladly give it to them if that’s what produced the stats. But no matter what method is used to track what went on, if the SK sucks, its just garbage in-garbage out of the software.

Heck, one of the reason PG enjoys the popularity it does is, no one trusts the numbers, so they have to see the players in person. Of course that would still be a smart thing to do even if the numbers were good. After all, even the ML teams still scout each other, and they have complete access to numbers that make mine look pathetic in comparison.

But, if there were paid “Official Scorers” for every HS game that came out of associations just like the umps do, with the necessary training, with the experience, and without the ties to the team, there’s no reason the numbers for HS, college, or even LL couldn’t be valid and used to help make a heck of a lot of things obsolete that happen now.

Heck, I am scoring for a great coach now, and still am having all kind of trouble. In general the umps announce the changes, but they seldom announce the switches unless the pitcher is involved, or a batter is involved. People just “ASSUME” those things don’t matter.

Unfortunately, the rule book requires certain things to be tracked, and among them are fielding percentages. Kinda difficult to do fielding percentages when you don’t know who was in the field to make the plays!

What do you guys do? I know you have your people use the guns and other equipment, but I never really paid attention to what y’all do for keeping score, nor do I know if you do any kind of in depth stats.


Bottom line... It sure is easy to say the wrong thing sometimes.

I agree, and I’m sorry if what I saw in my head wasn’t apparent on paper.

quote:

By scorekeeper - What do you guys do? I know you have your people use the guns and other equipment, but I never really paid attention to what y’all do for keeping score, nor do I know if you do any kind of in depth stats.

I can appreciate what you're saying. And seeing that you asked...

We are in charge of thousands of games each year between the tournaments and showcases. We almost always have at least two scouts work every game. One keeps the scorebook, the other charts pitchers and uses the gun. Both use stopwatches and make notes. They also keep the official time in events using a time limit.

The scorebook we use is different than all others. We developed it ourselves and it’s a combination score sheet and scouting chart. Our goal is to have notes on that score sheet of every player in that game, every game. So in the end, we will have a chart with lots of information on every pitcher and a score sheet with notes and times on every player. Both will include notes describing everything from body type to mechanics. We also chart BP, infield, outfield, running times and get coaches reports. This is done for any workout and every game, so if a team played 8 games in a tournament we could have 8 games worth of notes on one player. We also film a lot, so when we are done, there is a lot of information and it all ends up being entered in our player database. Overall, it gives a fairly accurate evaluation of a player for that time period.

All that said, the notes and numbers we are most interested in are not the actual stats. The stats do play a part in naming MVP and most valuable pitcher or even all prospect teams, etc. However our scorebooks at tournaments need to be accurate, because in those tournaments, both teams are also keeping a scorebook. Ours is the official scorebook. When we make a mistake, we look stupid!

So because we score so many games, we understand the value in a nice neat, accurate scorebook. We come home with sometimes well over 300 score sheets/scouting charts and over 300 pitching charts from just one tournament. We definitely notice there is a big difference in trying to decipher one score sheet from another. Just like players, umpires and coaches… some scorekeepers are better than others. Sounds like you take a lot of pride in being a good scorekeeper and I really respect that.

Scorekeeper

Why the correlation between coaching and keeping score ?

I dont see any such relationship

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Scorekeeper

Why the correlation between coaching and keeping score ?

I dont see any such relationship

TR,

I think I understand what you’re asking, but I don’t want to guess. It seems as though I’ve really made a lot of folks angry here, so rather than guess what you’re asking and be wrong, if you’ll be so kind as to ask your question a bit differently, I’ll sure try to answer.

Scorekeeper

I cannot ask more clearly than I have--what word don't you understand ?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I can think of only Tim Wakefield when I try to really find someone who has utilized the slide step exclusivley to his advantage. Then again, he throws 68mph.

I tired of people putting down Wakefield because he "only" throws 68MPH.

Wakefield throws 68MPH because that is the speed range (68-72MPH) at which a knuckleball moves the most. If he threw it faster, or slower, it wouldn't move as much as it does.

Painguy

quote:

I tired of people putting down Wakefield because he "only" throws 68MPH.

Wakefield throws 68MPH because that is the speed range (68-72MPH) at which a knuckleball moves the most. If he threw it faster, or slower, it wouldn't move as much as it does.

Who put him down? He does throw 68mph and saying so isnt a "put down"!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I cannot ask more clearly than I have--what word don't you understand ?

I’m just trying to make sure what’s goin’ on. I’m getting accused of reading more into posts than’s there, and I don’t want to offend anyone else. But since you insist on me taking a stab, here goes!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Why the correlation between coaching and keeping score ?

I dont see any such relationship

The only correlation was when deemax took his little shot, and I ASSUMED it was in jest since I’m a senior member here to him.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Maybe thats why you have been relagated to the scorebook and not the bullpen (that was meant to be humorous)

My response, also meant in a humorous way, which you should be able to tell by the emoticon was:

I wasn’t relegated to anything. I chose to do it because most coaches aren’t sharp enough to do it correctly.

Evidently he wasn’t posting in jest since his response was:

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
scornbooker

Im sure your comments go a long way with coaches who read posts in this forum. Good luck with your upcoming season, and thanks for all the insightful opinions.

I ASSUMED that since he gets great enjoyment out of ridiculing me by altering my name, scornbooker, scorebooker, and scorebooky and using the toilet to show his disdain for me, he was going to be castigated like I was. But evidently he somehow meets everyone’s satisfaction, even though he’s only been around 2 months longer than me, so I figured I’d just give up before I upset someone else.

I wouldn’t have responded again, but PGStaff asked what I thought was a fair and legitimate question. I tried to show respect for him by answering as best I could, and I thought by reading his response, I’d explained myself well enough, or at least he seemed to think so.

That’s when you asked about correlations between coaching and keeping score.

Now I suppose I’ll get another PM telling me my posts are too long or that I hijacked this one, but this time its all on you. I tried my best to explain myself, if you can’t figure it out from there, I’m sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

My biggest problem with the slide step is that it advocates not kawking the hips. If your throwing a punch, hitting a golf ball/baseball, or pitching the hips need to kawk in order to maximize power. Its hard to unload if you never load.

D
One way to as you say "kawk" the hips while using a slide step is to lead with the heel. It isn't exactly the type of load you get from the normal motion but can be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
My biggest problem with the slide step is that it advocates not kawking the hips. If your throwing a punch, hitting a golf ball/baseball, or pitching the hips need to kawk in order to maximize power. Its hard to unload if you never load.

I disagree.

What matters the most is that the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders. This enables you to take advantage of the Stretch Shortening Cycle.

All cahking the hips does is slightly increase the differential between the hips and the shoulders.

If you stride sideways to the target (leading with the side of the foot or the heel) and open your hips while keeping your shoulders closed, then you will achieve plenty of separation and your hips will powerfully pull your shoulders around.

Painguy

quote:

All cahking the hips does is slightly increase the differential between the hips and the shoulders.

I really disagree, but thats good because thats what this forum is all about. It does much more than that in relation to torque and momentum. Which has more stored power?
A. slide step
B. knee pump up and back

painguy

quote:

If you stride sideways to the target (leading with the side of the foot or the heel) and open your hips while keeping your shoulders closed, then you will achieve plenty of separation and your hips will powerfully pull your shoulders around.

If a pitcher can create more momentum into the seperation between the hips and shoulders by kawking his hip back then why shouldnt he? You said quote "plenty of separation"....Are you sure its plenty? Whats plenty to you isnt enough for me when someone is capable of more.

If what you say about kawking the hips in relation to plenty of separation without kawking is true, then why would the best and most powerful golf swings on the planet risk an extra movement in a complex swing by kawking their knee and hip back if they could get "plenty" of seperation between their hips and shoulders without doing it....IMO its because its much more powerful to do so.(I used the golf swing example because I feel the relationship between the hips and shoulders is on par with with the pitching delivery IMO...)

in my opinion most youth and even high school players struggle from the stretch,and even lose velocity. i think the main reason is they don't practice it enough, and i think that the muscle load from the windup is the big difference.

maybe a little off track here,and i have no dog in this fight. but i don't know many players that can keep a book. please don't take this the wrong way,i just can't think of any. most that you ask say they were to busy playing in the game.