Windup vs Stretch

My Two Cents - Very Little Difference

The only difference in pitching from the wind up is that there almost always seems to more speed. In the pitching motion world I believe in, the pitcher basically reaches the same position just without the side step motion. (assuming a leg lift) I taught that if a pitcher was struggling with his timing, to pitch from the stretch to simplfy it (usually corrects a balance issue)

Depends on the pitcher. Texan Son has never shown any velocity difference between the stretch & windup. I have seen others that do slow down in the stretch.

Some pitchers alter their mechanics or timing. Others use the slide step. Some just get distracted with runners on.

I'm not convinced that you pick up anything when it comes to pitching from the stretch versus the wind-up.

There are two reasons why I hold this view.

1. I recently scouted a kid who actually LOST a few MPH (went from 93ish from the Set to 91ish from the Wind-Up) when pitching from the Wind-Up versus the Set/Stretch. I have no idea why (the kid is a converted OFer), but I think that demonstrates that going from the Wind-Up will not automatically give you a velocity boost.

2. Many of the "Wind-Ups" that I see are so subtle that I don't see how they would gain you much. Most just involve a step to the side or starting out with the foot off to the side of the rubber. In looking at 30 or 40 prospects over the past couple of months, I have only see one old-school, arms over the head and a step back toward 2B Wind-Up.

I don't know if it's the windup per se. Mostly the question is what kick position you use. A kick that uses the front leg to unlock the hips for maximum pivot action will help a pitcher both achieve maximum velocity, and otherwise use the trunk to reduce stress on the arm.

A windup that doesn't involve this is basically a wasted opportunity. But a stretch that does do this is likely to be self-defeating, given that the whole point of throwing from the stretch is to hold runners, and a thorough leg kick will let 'em run wild.

So, in my view, if a kid isn't losing 1-2 mph in going from full to stretch, he probably isn't doing something right.

That's not to say you won't see kids who have the same mph both ways, or even less from the windup. It is to say that those kids are messing up somewhere.

Just because you are in the stretch does not mean that you must cut your leg lift short or face the prospect of being slow to the plate. A full but quick leg lift can be used.

That is one reason why some don't lose speed in the stretch.

Its kinda interesting that almost everyone looked at velocity as being the big determining factor on whether or not a P “loses” something from the stretch. In all honesty, I was thinking much more of accuracy or the ability to be repetitive than I was about velocity.

You can take a look at http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/fallcounts.pdf and see how things can vary, but even that isn’t a fair measure. It may well be that a P throws more strikes from the stretch, but that might be because of at least a couple different things.

It might be because the P has lost just enough velocity that he hitters will be able to attack close pitches more aggressively, it might be that by “backing off” just a touch he gains control, it may be that he loses timing and therefore the ability to try to pick at corners and just goes for the big portion of the plate, or it might be something else entirely.

Something brought home to me in a very rude way can be shown on pages 11 and 12 of that pdf file. You can easily see that only 2 of our P’s threw to more batters from the windup than the stretch, and only 1 of the 5 teams we played against did the same thing.

As you can see, our guys threw to over 54% of the batters they faced from the stretch, and our opponents an even higher percentage of 58%+. And judging by the numbers I got from my son’s HS team and JUCO team, that doesn’t change. In the HS and college games I scored, more batters were pitched to out of the stretch than the windup.

The reason I say that was brought up to me rudely is, my friend the ex-MLPC asked me how the P’s I see in pens and just warming-up throw. do they use most the windup or the set? When I told him the windup, and that it made sense because that’s how most batters are faced, he just laughed at me and told me to check for myself.

When I did, I found out the dog-ma had indeed taken another chunk out of my shorts! When I told him what I’d found, he just laughed and told me that’s why the rookies and inexperienced P’s on his roster, threw at least as many pitches in pens and practices from the stretch as the windup. It was a conscious effort to get them used to slightly different timing and mechanics.

He also rattled off the names of a whole bunch of ML P’s he’d seen who really had a lot of trouble from the stretch because they had the old style ridiculous windups, including the ol’ double pumper, and the change to going from the stretch was almost a completely different set of mechanics.

I’m not trying to say every P will have problems, or that the ones that do will have them to the same extent. What I am saying is that there are differences, and people are finding out more about them every day. And from the look of things, batters do have at least a slight advantage when the P has to throw from the stretch.

I think a lot of coaches want to believe that there isn't much difference in throwing from the stretch versus the wind-up. But I tend to disagree mainly due to the lack of preparation from the stretch and the extra effort required to generate momentum from the stretch.

Now, I do think a lot of this depends on what level pitcher we're talking about. For younger kids, there is definitely a difference between stretch and wind-up from a preparation standpoint. Many young kids start out playing Little League and never have to hold runners so they practice it less and the never develop a comfort level with pitching from the stretch. When these players jump to travel ball or school ball where they need to use the stretch, the are often less effective from the stretch because of the simple fact that they've not practiced it as much and they don't have that comfort level. This is very obvious because it is common to see these pitchers resort to the wind-up whenever runners are stacked up against 3B (and their coaches allow it ). I can certainly see this lack of practice and, therefore, comfort affecting control.

I also think younger pitchers have a tougher time generating from the stretch the momentum necessary to maximize their velocity. It can be done but I feel it takes more core strength which young pitchers often don't possess.

The older pitchers get, the stronger they become and the more they practice going from the stretch so the differences between the stretch and wind-up diminishes.

As a side note, I'd be careful when claiming that so-and-so doesn't lose velocity when going from the stretch because (as Midlo Dad pointed out) it might be the case that he's doing something to not maximize velocity from the wind-up like he otherwise could/should.

SK, you are correct. I especially notice a loss of control in those HS pitchers that use the slide step.

RT, perhaps someone could explain exactly why a pitcher should theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch.

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Originally posted by Texan:
RT, perhaps someone could explain exactly why a pitcher should theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch.

As a pitcher strides, he builds up linear momentum in the direction he strides. When the front foot plants and the front leg braces, forward movement of the front hip is stopped. That creates a whipping effect in the back hip rotating around the front hip. (You can see that in this video clip of Mark Prior.) Linear momentum is transferred into rotational momentum and that energy is then transferred up the kinetic chain from hips to shoulders, arm, hand and ball. The greater the linear momentum from the stride, the greater the available energy to transfer up the chain (up to some reasonable limit which is probably determined by one's physical make-up).

Of course, all of this assumes lots of other things exist or happen properly - adequate strength in the front leg for bracing, adequate strength in the core for maintaining balance and posture, proper mechanics and timing in general.

Now, this is not to say that all energy put into the ball comes solely from the stride. (Actually, I believe that is what Dick Mills claims.) I believe there are muscular contributions along the way as well. Given that, can such muscular contributions make up for a loss of momentum when throwing from the stretch (because without the use of a rocker step, it's a little more difficult to generate the same momentum)? Maybe for older pitchers, maybe not for younger pitchers. If a pitcher can't generate the same momentum from the stretch as from the wind-up, then he theoretically can't generate as much velocity unless he can make up for the lesser momentum by other means. (But if he fails to maximize momentum from the wind-up, then he may appear to throw as fast from the stretch as from the wind-up.)

RT, the stride occurs from both the stretch & the windup. So that couldn't explain why a pitcher should theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch.

I can see where velocity loss would be expected in the slide step. But not all pitchers do the slide step, so let's set that aside.

Must ask again - why should a pitcher theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch?

Agreed, the stride occurs for both the stretch and the wind-up. The issue is what movements the pitcher has available to initiate the stride and, therefore, momentum. From the stretch, the pitcher can only lift his stride leg, push against the rubber with the side of his foot, and push his hips out toward home plate. From the windup, the pitcher can take a rocker step (to the side or back) to initiate the stride with somewhat of a "running start". It's easier to generate more momentum from the wind-up, IMHO. That's not to say that you can't generate a good amount of momentum from the stretch. But I think it's typically older pitchers who can do that better because it takes more strength - strength to be able to push the hips toward home plate in a balanced manner, strength to push the side of the foot against the rubber, etc.

But the rocker step is in a direction that is not toward the plate. How does this translate to momentum toward the plate?

In fact, the rocker step generates momentum in a direction that is not toward home plate. Thus this momentum must be overcome as the leg stops its movement in a vector away from the plate and subsequently begins to move toward home plate. I hope this is clear, if not tell me.

Doesn't a running start only help if you are running in the direction you intend to act?

Good discussion...

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Originally posted by Texan:
RT, the stride occurs from both the stretch & the windup. So that couldn't explain why a pitcher should theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch.

I can see where velocity loss would be expected in the slide step. But not all pitchers do the slide step, so let's set that aside.

Must ask again - why should a pitcher theoretically lose velocity going from the windup to the stretch?

I think Roger has a pretty good and reasonable grip on this thing, and all I can really offer is what I’ve been told by someone who should know, and what I’ve experienced watching my son.

The big thing to keep in mind is, all pitchers have different styles, abilities, and physical gifts, and those things often change more often than they change their underwear.

In my son’s case, he often would get velocities 2-4 MPH higher from the stretch than the windup, but there was a definite reason. To start with, he wasn’t a “typical” pitcher in the sense that, although he had an above average FB, and could certainly control it, it wasn’t his main weapon.

He depended on changing speeds to the point of being almost ridiculous. Because of me, his private coach, and our friend who was a PC for both Walt Alston and Tom LaSorda, he very very seldom threw anything that resembled a 100% FB, or for that matter, any other pitch. He depended on great location and substantial velocity differences even in the same pitches, and was taught to pitch to contact, not to try to get the batters to miss.

As a HS Sr, he was sometimes caught at 89, but also 79 for his 4S FB in the same game. He’d throw a slider at anywhere from 84 down to 67. His CU would also run a wide range of speeds, as would his curve. For most of his career, he was stuck throwing the pitches that were called for him, so rather than fight the system, he just gave himself a wide variety of ways to execute any given pitch.

The result was, more than once a scout would check him out for 3-4 innings and never see a FB over 82, then he’d put the gun away. But maybe a couple innings later when the hitters came around for the 2nd or 3rd time, all of a sudden a few 88-90 pitches would show up out of nowhere, but never be caught on the gun.

But, when he was in the stretch, especially with a runner on 1st and no one on 2nd, everything changed. He’d literally explode out of the stretch with the same slidestep he used when he first started pitching at 10YO. the reason he’d do that was to keep the runners from stealing and to give his C’s a chance to throw them out, and for the most part, it worked.

His normal run-of-the-mill move to the plate from the stretch was about 1.15. His good move was generally less than 1.05, and his scary move was often brought to my attention as being in the .92-96 range, with a couple unbelievers showing me watches at less than .9.

The thing was, to do that he had to work one heck of a lot harder from the stretch because he was a small kid. He’d go from a medium hard trickster to as close to a power pitch as he could, but he’d only do it until the trouble had calmed down, then he’d go back to his “normal” style, even from the stretch.

But I really believe the reason he could do those things was because he’d been doing them so long, that style was completely natural for him. Many Ps though, never do get used to differences between the windup and stretch, and I think there’s a couple reasons for that. But that’s another story.

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Originally posted by Texan:
But the rocker step is in a direction that is not toward the plate. How does this translate to momentum toward the plate?
It depends on the direction of the “rock”. I taught my son to rock straight back like many of the old timers did with the “pump” before they actually started the deliver. The reason I did it was because common sense told me that going straight back meant he’d have to come straight forward, and that seemed like it was much more efficient than a side step which I’d never teach a new P.

If that’s what an experienced P did, I’d sure tell him my opinion and if he wanted to change that would be his business, but I wouldn’t try to change him if he didn’t see the sense in it. Of course its possible I was totally off base about it, but no one has ever convinced me to change my thinking.

Some folks have used the argument that its easier to step to the side to get the plant foot turned and to get into that big hole in front of the rubber. That may well be true on fields that aren’t maintained very well, but I took it on myself to get the mounds my son used in as good condition as possible, and that generally meant there was no big hole in front of the rubber, which there isn’t supposed to be according to the rules.

In fact, the rocker step generates momentum in a direction that is not toward home plate. Thus this momentum must be overcome as the leg stops its movement in a vector away from the plate and subsequently begins to move toward home plate. I hope this is clear, if not tell me.

That’s true, but there is no motion toward the plate until the rock is completely stopped.

Doesn't a running start only help if you are running in the direction you intend to act?

That’s right, but if the rock is straight back, the running start which starts after the **** is complete, is directly at the plate. the one O worry about is when the P uses a sidestep. If he’s a RHP, his rock is toward 1st base, which means he has to move toward 3rd, then curve his direction to the plate.

Good discussion...

I like it because no one is really ever totally wrong!

But even when the rocker step is sraight back, the lift leg will swing around (e.g., rotating in a vector that ends up away from the plate) & up until it is in the "balance position" (e.g., at the apex of the leg lift). There is a stop at this point of the delivery, no matter how momentary. After all, it is physically impossible to change direction - from going away from the plate to going toward the plate - instantaneously. So the momentum (being velocity times mass) goes to zero at this point.

And once the leg is at the apex of the leg lift, from that point on there is no difference between the stretch and the windup.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But even when the rocker step is sraight back, the lift leg will swing around (e.g., rotating in a vector that ends up away from the plate) & up until it is in the "balance position" (e.g., at the apex of the leg lift). There is a stop at this point of the deliver, no matter how momentary. After all, it is physically impossible to change direction - from going away from the plate to going toward the plate - instantaneously. So the momentum (being velocity times mass) goes to zero at this point.

And once the leg is at the apex of the leg lift, from that point on there is no difference between the stretch and the windup.

I’ll go along with most of that, other than the lift leg necessarily “swinging around”. Some Ps do not “swing” the leg, but do reverse rotate the trunk. I don’t know that there is any “right “ way to do it, but the people I trust don’t encourage much “swing at all. What I’ve seen encouraged is lifting the knee straight up as much as possible, then the trunk and hip counter-rotating might bring the leg back.

But your point about the momentary ceasing of movement, and the fact that from that point on, assuming the P is using the same leg lift and not a “jab kick’ or “slide step”, is the same from the windup or the stretch.

I hope I’m not digging myself a hole that I’ll get buried in here.

This is a very complicated subject, and a lot of how people feel comes from their philosophies. Even the kinesiologists don’t have a one way fits all theory, and that makes it really tuff on us mere mortals.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But even when the rocker step is sraight back, the lift leg will swing around (e.g., rotating in a vector that ends up away from the plate) & up until it is in the "balance position" (e.g., at the apex of the leg lift). There is a stop at this point of the delivery, no matter how momentary. After all, it is physically impossible to change direction - from going away from the plate to going toward the plate - instantaneously. So the momentum (being velocity times mass) goes to zero at this point.

And once the leg is at the apex of the leg lift, from that point on there is no difference between the stretch and the windup.

Excellent point.

The only real difference (there may be psychological differences) is the height of the knee lift. In some cases, it's higher when going from the Wind-Up.

You're correct, tpg, sometimes the leg lift isn't as high in the windup with some pitchers. But as you also noted, there is no reason for this other than the pitcher chooses not to raise it as high. He certainly could have an identical leg lift if he chose to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
You're correct, tpg, sometimes the leg lift isn't as high in the windup with some pitchers. But as you also noted, there is no reason for this other than the pitcher chooses not to raise it as high. He certainly could have an identical leg lift if he chose to do so.

Some people (e.g. Nolan Ryan) think they throw harder the higher they lift their knee.

I'm not sure if that's actually true (but it's what Ryan believed).

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
So, in my view, if a kid isn't losing 1-2 mph in going from full to stretch, he probably isn't doing something right.

In my view, if a kid is losing 1-2 mph going from the windup to the stretch, he probably isn't doing something right in the stretch.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But even when the rocker step is sraight back, the lift leg will swing around (e.g., rotating in a vector that ends up away from the plate) & up until it is in the "balance position" (e.g., at the apex of the leg lift). There is a stop at this point of the delivery, no matter how momentary. After all, it is physically impossible to change direction - from going away from the plate to going toward the plate - instantaneously. So the momentum (being velocity times mass) goes to zero at this point.

There is certainly a change of direction at the end of the rocker step back. But I disagree that there is a stop at the balance position. In fact, I disagree that there even is a balance point. Look at this video clip of Nolan Ryan. He steps back but once he starts forward he never pauses not even when he rotates into his closed off knee lift position. His hips continue to move toward the plate.

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And once the leg is at the apex of the leg lift, from that point on there is no difference between the stretch and the windup.

No difference except, possibly, th speed with which the pitcher moves towards the plate and, therefore, the amount of momentum he builds up.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But the rocker step is in a direction that is not toward the plate. How does this translate to momentum toward the plate?

You're correct that the step back directs energy rearward and builds some momentum in that direction. But the rocker step back is slow and controlled enough (or at least it should be) that the pitcher can come to a controlled stop to change directions without losing balance, etc. But now they are in a position where the feet are spread apart that the back foot can be used to push off and initiate momentum forward.

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In fact, the rocker step generates momentum in a direction that is not toward home plate. Thus this momentum must be overcome as the leg stops its movement in a vector away from the plate and subsequently begins to move toward home plate. I hope this is clear, if not tell me.

Perfectly clear - I should have read this before replying above.

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Doesn't a running start only help if you are running in the direction you intend to act?

The "running start" starts after you step back. (I know I'm the one who used the term "running start" but I really don't like it.)

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Good discussion...

Yes indeedy!

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Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
So, in my view, if a kid isn't losing 1-2 mph in going from full to stretch, he probably isn't doing something right.

In my view, if a kid is losing 1-2 mph going from the windup to the stretch, he probably isn't doing something right in the stretch.

Could be. But if he's not losing anything in the stretch, it could be that he's losing something while in the wind-up. Or, to be more precise, he's failing to take advantage of what I believe to be an opportunity to generate more momentum and to do so more easily.

Notice I said "could be". The comments about pitchers all being different is certainly true.

Let me try to explain again.

In the windup. RHP.

Look at the leg lift knee as a reference point. Now visualize a view from above the pitcher. As the knee travels in its path from the rocker step to the apex of the leg lift, the knee is basically rotating in a curved path roughly about an axis defined by the pivot leg. Viewed from above, this rotation is clockwise. Agree? If not, we must iron this out before talking about anything else.

This clockwise rotation continues until the apex of the leg lift. The knee is moving away from the plate as it gets closer to the apex of the leg lift.

Now follow the path of the leg lift knee from this point of time onward. The knee now moves torward the plate as the stride begins.

There HAS to be a point in time where the velocity of the knee relative to home plate is zero. There has been a change in direction. It is physcially impossible to reverse direction without a momentary point in time where the velocity passes through zero. And when velocity is zero, momentum must go to zero (laws of physics). Even if the velocity is zero for only a very short time (as would be the case with Ryan).

Many pitchers slightly overrotate in their leg lift, so the knee has to rotate counterclockwise some as the stride takes place. In this case also, the direction has changed.

Did this make it any clearer?

This would be so much easier in person...

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Let me try to explain again.

In the windup. RHP.

Look at the leg lift knee as a reference point. Now visualize a view from above the pitcher. As the knee travels in its path from the rocker step to the apex of the leg lift, the knee is basically rotating in a curved path roughly about an axis defined by the pivot leg. Viewed from above, this rotation is clockwise. Agree? If not, we must iron this out before talking about anything else.

Agreed. Of course, if the hips are moving, then the axis about which the knee is rotating is itself moving. In fact, it's tilting toward the plate since the pivot foot remains planted during while the hips move toward the plate.

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This clockwise rotation continues until the apex of the leg lift. The knee is moving away from the plate as it gets closer to the apex of the leg lift.

Especially if the pitcher counter-rotates.

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Now follow the path of the leg lift knee from this point of time onward. The knee now moves torward the plate as the stride begins.

To me, you're saying that the stride begins at the apex of the knee lift which seems rather arbitrary. Not sure if that's what you intended. But I think the stride could be considered to have started when the pitcher starts to step forward from the rocker step. Regardless of how it's defined, I prefer the hips to already be moving toward the plate before the knee reaches its apex.

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There HAS to be a point in time where the velocity of the knee relative to home plate is zero. There has been a change in direction. It is physcially impossible to reverse direction without a momentary point in time where the velocity passes through zero. And when velocity is zero, momentum must go to zero (laws of physics). Even if the velocity is zero for only a very short time (as would be the case with Ryan).

I think this may be a disconnect here. You're focusing on the knee while I'm focusing on the hips. I don't think the knee is all that important from the standpoint of momentum generation whereas the hips (or, equivalently, the center of mass) is vital.

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Many pitchers slightly overrotate in their leg lift, so the knee has to rotate counterclockwise some as the stride takes place. In this case also, the direction has changed.

Agreed. But, again, if the hips are moving, then the change of direction of the knee happens while the everything is moving.

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Did this make it any clearer?

Yep.

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This would be so much easier in person...

Yep.

Okay, I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Some pitchers do go forward slightly (looking at the hips) as they reach the leg lift apex. In this case, I can see where a little forward momentum might be generated. The rotation of the knee will tend to offset some of this momentum though (some of the body's mass is going back while other is going forward).

Good thought provoking discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Good thought provoking discussion.

Agreed. Thanks! And there was no need to prefix our posts with:

"Serious, non-confrontational question:".

Imagine that.

Coming in a little late with my .02 I think it is a timing issue for pitchers who lose significant velo in the stretch. Windup allows it all to come together at their leisure. The need to hold runners doesn't allow this luxury from the stretch.

Do you think the issue with timing is that the timing of the various parts of the body change differently relatively to each other (e.g. one part speeds up more than another) such that is sort of throws a pitcher out of sync? Or is it just that everything speeds up such that it's tough to achieve things like full knee lift, full stride, full arm extension, etc.? Or both?

What can be done to fix this?

My thoughts are that a large percent (???%) of practice/bullpen/warm up work is done from the wind up and very little from the set position.

In a game, when it matters, the percentage is almost always reversed. Look back on your scorebooks.

When the pitcher uses the slide step or shortens his leg lift, then it is a timing/sync issue and not just rushing.

When you use a slide step, the lower body (particularly the stride leg) gets a lot quicker while the total body gets only a little quicker. If you get the hips going sooner, you can maintain your normal knee lift and keep things in sync. Your lower body won't be any quicker but your total body will. So, you can be quicker to the plate without getting out of sync because you're not speeding up just one part of your body.

Before taking away a pitcher's knee lift, put a clock on them to get a baseline. Then have them try starting the hips forward sooner and faster. Clock them again and if they are within your goal then there is no need for the slide step.

This is how I teach my pitchers. Although, until they get it down, I also have them show a slide step early in a game when the opposing coach might be assessing us to decide if he's going to try to run on us.

I teach just doing a quick leg lift in the stretch. The same height of leg lift as from the windup, just lifted quickly. The real part of timing/synchronization begins with the break of the hands. And from the break on, nothing is changed at all. So there is negligible change compared to the slidestep.

This has given 1.2 seconds to the plate with a pitcher throwing in the low to mid-80's. That gets the job done if the pitcher varies his looks and does a decent job of holding runners.

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This has given 1.2 seconds to the plate with a pitcher throwing in the low to mid-80's. That gets the job done if the pitcher varies his looks and does a decent job of holding runners.

1.2 more than gives the catcher a fair chance to throw out a runner. One thing that gets lost in times to the plate is that interuption of the runners timing will slow down a running game far more then the quick time to home plate (within reason 1.15-1.45). If the runner can be made uncomfortable as to when to jump then 1.4 can be as good as 1.2 IF the pitcher has a feel for changing his looks, timing, and types of moves to first and to the plate. Runners dont want to steal if they dont feel they can get a good jump, even if the pitchers time to the plate isnt ideal.

IMO the slide step is a joke. There are a heck of a lot more effective ways to get a time to the plate under 1.5 then to take away timing, tempo, power, deception, and style.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
One thing that gets lost in times to the plate is that interuption of the runners timing will slow down a running game far more then the quick time to home plate (within reason 1.15-1.45). If the runner can be made uncomfortable as to when to jump then 1.4 can be as good as 1.2 IF the pitcher has a feel for changing his looks, timing, and types of moves to first and to the plate. Runners dont want to steal if they dont feel they can get a good jump, even if the pitchers time to the plate isnt ideal.

Good point. And keeping the runner uncomfortable can be accomplished without a lot of pick throws. Varying looks & timing can do much good.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
1.2 more than gives the catcher a fair chance to throw out a runner. One thing that gets lost in times to the plate is that interuption of the runners timing will slow down a running game far more then the quick time to home plate (within reason 1.15-1.45). If the runner can be made uncomfortable as to when to jump then 1.4 can be as good as 1.2 IF the pitcher has a feel for changing his looks, timing, and types of moves to first and to the plate. Runners dont want to steal if they dont feel they can get a good jump, even if the pitchers time to the plate isnt ideal.

IMO the slide step is a joke. There are a heck of a lot more effective ways to get a time to the plate under 1.5 then to take away timing, tempo, power, deception, and style.

I think you’re correct that upsetting the runner’s timing can be just as, if not more effective than a quicker time to the plate. But the thing I disagree with is, thinking the slide step is a joke.

You’re assumption seems to be that every P is exactly the same, and nothing could be farther from the truth. The slide step works tremendously well for some, but horribly bad for others. Everything depends on the P. Its just another thing that’s an option.

Scorekeeper

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You’re assumption seems to be that every P is exactly the same

No one I have met advocates style and indivuality with pitchers as much as me. At no time did I even remotely hint that every P is the same.

I stand by what I said in that the slide step is a joke, and that there are far more effective ways to be quick to the plate.

I think there is merit in showing the other team early in the game that you have a slide step. But I otherwise don't care much for it because it does involve different timing and I think pitchers end up throwing with more arm when using it.

I agree that keeping the runners off-balance is effective in slowing down the running game so long as it doesn't distract a pitcher from pitching. I'm sure we've all seen pitchers get so preoccupied with base runners that their pitching suffers.

RT

quote:

think there is merit in showing the other team early in the game that you have a slide step. But I otherwise don't care much for it because it does involve different timing and I think pitchers end up throwing with more arm when using it.

IMO your 100% right that the slide step using more arm, and the timing of it being difficult to repeat. My biggest problem with the slide step is that it advocates not kawking the hips. If your throwing a punch, hitting a golf ball/baseball, or pitching the hips need to kawk in order to maximize power. Its hard to unload if you never load.