Winning pitcher

Very good question. The rule (from MLB) is below.

Since starter went 5 (in HS this would be 4), I don't think 10.17 (b) would apply since the starter went at least 4. Thus you get into rule 10.17 (c). By the letter of the rule, the appearance of (B) was not 'brief' because it was one inning. You could certainly argue it was very ineffective, because of the 6 runs. I think a scorer who spent any time thinking about this (which won't happen since the visiting team won) would probably give the win to C for being the most effective, although B could also be given the win and C the save. I'll post another case that happened to my son last night after this post.

10.17 WINNING AND LOSING PITCHER
(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless
(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or
(2) Rule 10.17(c) applies.
Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.
(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed
(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or
(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense,
then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer’s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.
Rule 10.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.17(b) that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.
(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.

Starter pitches into the 4th (no outs) when he walks the first two hitters and is replaced up 9-1 (lots of pitches, six walks, on fumes recovering from an illness, very gutty performance against a good hitting team).

My boy comes in gives up a single, double play (run scores), single (run scores) out. 9-3 after 4.

5th inning, leadoff HR, 3 outs, 9-4 after 5.

6th inning, 2 ground ball singles, bunt single, bloop single, double roped down the line, no outs, runner at second, 4 runs in now 9-8. 2+ IP, 8 hits, 5 ER.

Closer comes in and gets 6 straight, we win 9-8.

Official scorer gives win to starter (like they always do regardless of the rules). I think it should go to the closer, who was 'the most effective' per 10.17 B. Any other opinions?

Thank you for posting - this was not a game I attended - was talking with someone who did. I think (A) ran out of steam in the 6th and was pulled with two out, but he had not allowed any runs. Apparently the hc gave the win to (B), even though (C) had 3 up 3 down. So maybe rule 10.17(c) should have been applied?

In your case, the starter didn't complete the 4th - so I see why you think the closer should have the win.

Let me try to understand....
Visiting team is losing after the end of 6 innings. In the top of the 7th the visiting team takes the lead. In the home half of the 7th, the visiting team gives up no runs so they win the game. If this is the case then the win goes to the visiting team pitcher who pitched the 7th inning.

quote:

Originally posted by jfsbndr:
Let me try to understand....
Visiting team is losing after the end of 6 innings. In the top of the 7th the visiting team takes the lead. In the home half of the 7th, the visiting team gives up no runs so they win the game. If this is the case then the win goes to the visiting team pitcher who pitched the 7th inning.

Wrong. The win has to go to the pitcher that pitched the 6th in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Starter pitches into the 4th (no outs) when he walks the first two hitters and is replaced up 9-1 (lots of pitches, six walks, on fumes recovering from an illness, very gutty performance against a good hitting team).

My boy comes in gives up a single, double play (run scores), single (run scores) out. 9-3 after 4.

5th inning, leadoff HR, 3 outs, 9-4 after 5.

6th inning, 2 ground ball singles, bunt single, bloop single, double roped down the line, no outs, runner at second, 4 runs in now 9-8. 2+ IP, 8 hits, 5 ER.

Closer comes in and gets 6 straight, we win 9-8.

Official scorer gives win to starter (like they always do regardless of the rules). I think it should go to the closer, who was 'the most effective' per 10.17 B. Any other opinions?

If the starter did not complete the 4th inning he is not elligible for the win. In the case you describe the win goes to the 1st reliever (since he never lost the lead whiel pitching) and the closer gets a Save. If the starter completed the 4th inning then he gets the win and the closer gets the save.

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:

quote:

Originally posted by jfsbndr:
Let me try to understand....
Visiting team is losing after the end of 6 innings. In the top of the 7th the visiting team takes the lead. In the home half of the 7th, the visiting team gives up no runs so they win the game. If this is the case then the win goes to the visiting team pitcher who pitched the 7th inning.

Wrong. The win has to go to the pitcher that pitched the 6th in this case.

You're right...my bad. The lead was regained by the visiting team BEFORE they played defense in the 7th. Therefore the pitcher who pitched the 6th is the winner. I knew I was confused.

Well I can see that too, except that the division of innings confuses me. Are you saying (B) gets the win because officially he had not been replaced with the next pitcher, even though he gave up the lead? Visitors regained the lead in the seventh, but had something happened in the half inning, the score would have reverted to the a visitor loss. I didn't think things like this carried over to the next inning.

At any rate, if (B), then should (C) have been credited with a save?

It's the pitcher of record at the time the last go ahead run scores, or who is the pitcher of record when the team that ultimately wins the game goes ahead for the last time. Every time there is a tie, you reset the W/L pitcher to those that are pitchers of record at the time.

So, if B finishes the 6th behind, the visiting team scores a ton of runs and goes ahead for the last time, then B is the pitcher of record when the winning team goes ahead for the last time.

If C comes in and gets the last out in the 6th, then he would've been the pitcher of record when the winning team went ahead.

The traditional scoring would be that B is the winner and C gets a save. The only caveat is that the official scorer could rule his appearance as 'ineffective' because he gave up 6 runs in an inning and give the win to C, who was more effective.

In the case of my son's game, I'd probably give him the win and the closer the save. The scorer chose to give it to the starter, even though that isn't the correct thing to do. I think when you throw two good innings before the bad one, you've done your bit. But I'm his dad.

Bottom line, there is some wiggle room for the scorer in these situations however its rarely taken. Usually, its the pitcher of record at the time the go ahead run is scored, no matter how bad that guy was.

I'll add that its usually incredible circumstances when a pitcher is ruled to have been 'ineffective'. 6 runs would get there IMHO, although if his defense made some errors, or there were other circumstances, I might change my mind.

You've got to be there...