With all the talk of pitch counts . . .

quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
No such thing as "just" a catcher!

A pitcher is only as good as his catcher (sorry pitchers, but you know that it is true - a catcher can make, or break a game for you).

Value yourself more than that!

As a very proud ex-catcher, I pass this on for your consideration.

There was a time when I was very vociferous about catchers and how important they were to the pitcher. Heck, there was no position as important, no one as smart, and it was the REAL leadership position, not those pansy shortstops.

Then one day I was going on about the last game my kid had thrown, and how his catcher had cost him the game, and how the coach needed to get a catcher back there who was top notch. Unfortunately for me, I was venting to an ex-MP pitcher, scout, and pitching coach, and he brought me down to earth with a huge thud.

All he did was ask if the game should be canceled because the catcher wasn’t any good. As I was trying to come up with an answer, he made a very calm statement. “It doesn’t matter if the catcher is a hall of fame catcher or one with a hole in his glove and who can’t throw the ball back to the pitcher in the air, The pitcher still has to pitch.”

Now, is it a huge plus to have a catcher with a pop2pop of 1.2, and can hit a gnat in the butt at 127’? You bet! But, it might be a bigger plus to have a pitcher who’s .8 to the plate and a great move! That way there’s no need to have that great catcher.

What I’m trying to say is, every position on the team is important, and when people start trying to assign great important to one over another, all they’re doing is unnecessarily insulting 8 of the players on the team.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I'll take a closer look at this but will say that the total number of innings a season I've seen for college can be in the high 90's and I haven't seen that in high school, more like high 50's wouldn't you agree? We can't just look at game day pitch counts here, agreed?

I would suggest that the DII and DIII pitchers on staffs that are not deep are overtly overused. I think I can find stats to back that up in any conference you choose. DI includes pro prospects and very talented pitchers in the top 25 rankings which is a much smaller sample of players.

My son threw 153.67 innings in 2 Varsity seasons, and although he threw a lot, he wasn’t close to throwing the most in either season. It all depends on the situation, whether its HS, college, or anywhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by cmcconnell:
That ideolgy seems sound, though I'd be curious to see how those ratios play out if you factor in bullpen sessions/split-squad scrimmages during the fall and spring, not to mention the work load taken on in summer leagues. I guess the question is "how do you characterize a competitive pitch, as it relates to stress on the arm?

There are many different things that cause stress on a pitcher. Obviously there’s more stress on a particular pitch thrown in an intersquad game than a bullpen. It would also seem like common sense that a pitch thrown in a game is more stressful than one thrown in that intersquad game. But is it really?

What if that game was 14-1 in the inning the mercy rule went into effect for the defensive team, and the coach was using the performance in the intersquad game to determine if the pitcher would be cut?

Is it more stressful when a pitcher is always pitching behind in the count than not? How about with runners on base? Or how about with a runner on 3rd an no outs with the game on the line, or a runner on 1st with a 7 run lead?

How about the stress level of a pitcher with a runner on 3rd wanting to throw a FB up, but the coach keeps calling for a curve low and away, even though the catcher couldn’t block a ball in the dirt with a bulldozer?

What’s really being discussed is the amount of stress “Sphincter Pucker” adds to a pitch. There’s really no way to measure it because it will vary with every player, every situation, and every game, which is why its so difficult to judge when a pitcher should be taken out.

That’s why the only sure way to at least put some safety factor in, is use pitch counts as a guide.

Stats4Gnats,

I really didn't mean to offend.

Partly it was meant to be tongue in cheek, partly intended to give props to junior. Wasn't trying to assign great import to any one position

It certainly takes a team to play baseball. My guys have played first, short, third, pitcher, catcher, and outfield. I cheer for the second baseman, center fielder, and everyone else.

I do think that catchers are often under appreciated and taken for granted. It is a hard, dirty, hot job. Catchers don't catch for the glory. They catch because they love it. Same could be said for any position, I guess, but catchers just seem to be cut from a different cloth. Most catchers, that I know, couldn't imagine playing any other position (at least until the knees give out).

So, I apologize for being insensitive of the other positions. I am sorry I offended you. I stand duly corrected.

quote:

What I’m trying to say is, every position on the team is important, and when people start trying to assign great important to one over another, all they’re doing is unnecessarily insulting 8 of the players on the team.

Let the insults begin. I couldn't disagree more. If you don't have a good catcher, your team is screwed. That is unless we aren't keeping score.

What's a catcher?

P&CMom,
Very PC.

BTW, the pitcher position is more important than any other position. Pitchers are not more important than other players because pitchers don't play every game but the position is more important.

Catcher is the next most important position because they are involved with every pitch. Catchers may be the most important players given that they also play almost every game.

Every pitch of the game. Every ---- pitch of the game. He is expected to block balls off his body. Take them in the forearms. Slide and block and take them on the shoulders, wrists, whatever he has to do to keep the ball in front of him. Then on the very next pitch perform regardless. Foul balls off the mask that rattle the teeth and jaw bone. Foul balls off the thighs. Foul balls on meat of the hand. And on the very next pitch he is expected to perform with the same level of ability on the previous pitch. Setting up and having to respond in the blink of an eye when a fb that is called on the outside is thrown down and away. Seeing the winning run on third and knowing he is going to have to keep everything in front of him regardless. Pitch after pitch ---- every pitch of the game. Squatting and busting his butt for 2 and a half hours and then coming to the plate in a crucial time of the game and expected to perform regardless. Taking the heat in the gear and expected to perform the 9th inning as well as he did the 1st inning. I could go on and on. Stand in a group with the players after any game. Take a look around at all the players uniforms after any game. Take a look at their faces and their body language. The catcher is the guy with the large welp on is forearm from that curveball spiked in the fourth inning. That bruise on his thigh from the foul ball. The uniform covered in sweat and dirt. The face red with sweat pouring off of it. And thats after every game.

Both are equally important imo. But there is no question in my mind that the toughest position to play is catcher. They are warriors. They are men. They have my ultimate respect.

quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
Stats4Gnats,

I really didn't mean to offend.

Partly it was meant to be tongue in cheek, partly intended to give props to junior. Wasn't trying to assign great import to any one position

It certainly takes a team to play baseball. My guys have played first, short, third, pitcher, catcher, and outfield. I cheer for the second baseman, center fielder, and everyone else.

I do think that catchers are often under appreciated and taken for granted. It is a hard, dirty, hot job. Catchers don't catch for the glory. They catch because they love it. Same could be said for any position, I guess, but catchers just seem to be cut from a different cloth. Most catchers, that I know, couldn't imagine playing any other position (at least until the knees give out).

So, I apologize for being insensitive of the other positions. I am sorry I offended you. I stand duly corrected.

Trust me, I was not offended, and never apologize for supporting your child!

In fact, I’m still very proud of being an ex-catcher, and believe in my heart that any team that has a great catcher, has a bigger advantage than any player at any other position. That really twists some undies, especially those who believe a great pitcher is the most important player. That would be true if he could pitch every game, but even the greatest can only guarantee 1 win out of every 3,

The other folks who get offended are the SS advocates. Is a great SS a tremendous asset? Of coursed. But who touches the ball more often? Who has to communicate with the pitcher on every single pitch? Think about this too. At the HS level, who has to be involved in more plays? The SS or the catcher who has to block Lord knows how many pitches with runners on base? How many plays does a SS have to make in game with runners on? But in the end, it takes 9 players on the field, and several on the bench ready to come in when needed,

I once won a case of beer this way. At a tournament in Az on the 3rd day, I bet a coach I could pick out his catcher, even though I’d never seen his team play. We made the bet, and he brought all the players into the dugout. I had them all take off their shirts and uniform pants, and it was like the catcher was standing there painted red and holding lit Roman Candles! No one else takes the beating a catcher takes, and is literally black an blue from head to toe. BTW, I traded the beer for the coach’s promise to by the players an ice cold drink after the game.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
(Boyd's estimate was off by 15-20 pitches if I remember right).

Yes, I think the his model can be off, and since he is looking for high counts, mis-estimates that are high will be preferentially shown.

But 181-20 is still 161-- similar to to the numbers in the other thread.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
(Boyd's estimate was off by 15-20 pitches if I remember right).

Yes, I think the his model can be off, and since he is looking for high counts, mis-estimates that are high will be preferentially shown.

But 181-20 is still 161-- similar to to the numbers in the other thread.

I thought that he has admitted he can be off.
Interesting for me, is how many times a pitcher threw over 100.