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With all the talk of pitch counts . . .

C cmcconnell10+ posts
Tdad's post, "Incredible Pitching Performance," got me wondering what the thoughts of the hsbaseballweb were regarding the following scenario about John. John is the team's ace pitcher. Very strong academics; plans on attending an elite private school on full academic scholarship; will attempt to walk-on to baseball team (non-preferred).

HS state tournament, quarterfinals; Friday night. John throws 7 innings (88 pitches in a W). Semifinal game at 1:00, Saturday.

5th inning of semi's, John's team is up 4-1, pitcher is struggling. HC sends a guy to the pen; John tells coach he wants to finish the game. Coach feels that John is team's best bet to get to championship game, and reluctantly, sends John to warm up. John is up and down in the pen for the 5th, 6th, and 7th. The starting pitcher works out of several jams and finishes the game; John's team will play in the championship game.

The head coach is wary of starting John in the championship game Sat. night, considering the number of pitches he has thrown in the previous 24 hours, both in the game and in the pen. John assures the HC that his arm feels fine; he demands the ball. The HC is torn: he knows that by starting John, he gives his team the best chance to bring home a state championship. By not starting him, he helps ensure the health of John's right arm, thus safeguarding his upcoming collegiate tryout. At John's urging, the HC starts him. John pitches a gem (another 106 pitches), and wins a state championship. John is on the bottom of the dog-pile; his ring size is 11.5.


What do you think of a coach who elects to use a pitcher, who has far exceeded any recommended daily/multi-day pitch count, with the opportunity to win a state title (PARTICULARLY IF THE P HAS NO DEFINITE POST HS BASEBALL PLANS)? Granted, if the kid is looking at a 6+ figure signing bonus come June, the decision becomes much easier (don't throw him); but does your thinking change if the pitcher has no significant post grad baseball plans?

I coached a team that lost in the state finals to a team who used their #1 in the manner described above. Full disclosure: the P threw 194 pitches over a 3 game weekend; he is finishing up a successful Sr year at a mid major D1 (no injuries to note). Thoughts? Particularly those from coaches who have had to make similar decisions?
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CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I think most coaches would do what was done. I think it is wrong. I did see a kid with no definite plans and in fact leaning toward not continuing in the game and a serious arm issue be used in a similar way at the end of his senior season. In this case the kid was used to get better seeding in the playoffs after the coach started a favorite instead of the pitcher recommended by the pitching coach and the favorite was bombed. The kid came in and turned in an incredibly gutsy performance with not much stuff left and to be honest a lot of luck. The kid's UCL was almost certainly partially torn but as far as we know didn't go completely. I'm not totally certain that was wrong given the situation. In the end it turned out that it didn't really change the seeding.

I am certain that throwing the kid 3 innings on consecutive days in a spring break tournament and calling mostly sliders both days when the kid was a junior was wrong and might have had a lot to do with him not having definite plans after HS. During the same meaningless spring break tournament a senior obviously pitched through pain and impressed the coach of the D1 school who gave him a walk on roster spot. There are plusses and minuses to these situations. They did end up winning the tournament and each got a t-shirt for winning. The teams that protected their pitchers and didn't win the tournament got several pitchers drafted including a couple 2nd rounders from the same team.

junior5,
I had a kid come to pitch for me on our freshman winter ball team after the JV coaches decided he wasn't throwing as well anymore. They told me I was supposed to start him pitching that day. I saw him play some catch and realized something was wrong. I asked him how long it had been hurting. Several weeks. I shut him down and told him to see a doctor but it was too late, he'd already torn the UCL away from the medial epicondyle. He played the game to win and he didn't tell anyone. He also never played much on JV and was cut without making varsity due to the effects of that overuse arm injury.
Last edited by CADad
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
"If he didn't think he could've thrown, he would've told someone."

Don't agree. Most kids would say they are fine even if their arm is hurting.

"I think most coaches would do what was done. I think it is wrong."

Agree on both counts. To me, it's the coach's job to make the call the kid won't make. Teens think they are bullet proof...coach's know better and should decide accordingly. It will vary by kid, and the coach needs to know his kids. But sending a player to the mound in that situation is a lot like sending the running back with the concussion back in the game. Parents need to evaluate the coach and decide if he's one they can trust in such a situation. If not, they need to step in and make the decisions to protect the arm the coach won't.
Last edited by Tx-Husker
J junior5100+ posts
The kid will pitch if he thinks he can win the game. End of story. Parents spend too much time thinking about college and pro baseball and not about why they let their kids play the game of baseball. Ask yourself this, why did you play the game of baseball? I'm pretty sure none of you will say so that I can step away from a challenge when I can win a big game for my team. Yes, I may be in pain, but I can do a better job than any person in the game of baseball and I am going to do this better than any one who has had this opportunity. This is why I play the game, because you get the chance to prove people wrong pitch by pitch, at bat by at bat, inning by inning, and lifetime by lifetime. I am not the best player in the world but you better believe that I would take myself hurt,tired, or dead over any other person in this world in a big situation. If I succeed then I get a pat on the back and keep on playing, but if I fail I busted my a** to be the best player on that given day. If I come out injured, then that's what happened. I think that the statement of teenagers thinking their bulletproof is wrong. It's the fact that teenagers want to prove themselves because they get told that they are not responsible... and that they can't do this and can't do that. If as a parent you did a good job raising your child then whyt are you worrying? That's the question I think needs to be asked, and yes I sure as heck believe that my parents would want me to work day in day out to be the best I can be. Shying away from a challenge when you aren't at your best is part of life. Why not take that chance on a baseball field instead of out in the real world?
Last edited by junior5
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Junior5,
I played because I enjoyed the game and because like most kids I had a dream of playing Major League Ball. High school baseball was just another step to that dream. In my day we played through the pain because we didn't know any better. I saw a lot of talented players go down with injuries and never come back. I happened to be one of the ones with a rubber arm and the pain was seldom enough to affect performance. I just didn't happen to be good enough eventually.

You've really been brainwashed very effectively.

I've seen quite a few kids injure their arms permanently because they were brainwashed to think the way that you do. Actually I should be more accurate and say that they were scared to admit they were injured because they continuously heard from their coaches about Wally Pip. They also saw that talented players who were injured and shut down by doctors were treated poorly.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by junior5:
The kid will pitch if he thinks he can win the game. End of story. Parents spend too much time thinking about college and pro baseball and not about why they let their kids play the game of baseball. Ask yourself this, why did you play the game of baseball? I'm pretty sure none of you will say so that I can step away from a challenge when I can win a big game for my team. Yes, I may be in pain, but I can do a better job than any person in the game of baseball and I am going to do this better than any one who has had this opportunity. This is why I play the game, because you get the chance to prove people wrong pitch by pitch, at bat by at bat, inning by inning, and lifetime by lifetime. I am not the best player in the world but you better believe that I would take myself hurt,tired, or dead over any other person in this world in a big situation. If I succeed then I get a pat on the back and keep on playing, but if I fail I busted my a** to be the best player on that given day. If I come out injured, then that's what happened. I think that the statement of teenagers thinking their bulletproof is wrong. It's the fact that teenagers want to prove themselves because they get told that they are not responsible... and that they can't do this and can't do that. If as a parent you did a good job raising your child then whyt are you worrying? That's the question I think needs to be asked, and yes I sure as heck believe that my parents would want me to work day in day out to be the best I can be. Shying away from a challenge when you aren't at your best is part of life. Why not take that chance on a baseball field instead of out in the real world?


Sorry junior, I don't agree with this. There are kids out there who know when something isn't right with them and will take themselves out of the situation because they know in the long run it is the best thing for them. And that does not mean they don't have the competitive spirit.

I can use my son as an example, but I won't bore you with the details of something that just recently happened. I have seen other kids do it. I have taught my son from early on that when he is feeling pain, he needs to let his coach know and come out of the game. He is one of the most competitive, all out kids you will see on the baseball field.

Do I want my son to compete 100%, 100% of the time? Of course. If he didn't, he would hear from me about it. But should he do that at the expense of his future, even if his future is this coming summer season or his senior year of HS? No Way!!!

I agree that some kids will do this, but not all of them and I think that is a good thing. Will some coaches do this? Yep, but I don't think they should.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by junior5:
Why do anything in life if you don't want to do the best job day in and day out?


Don't think you should. How can you do your best today when you are hurt? Isn't that doing a disservice to yourself and your teammates. How can you be your best tomorrow if you injure yourself today and don't take the steps to ensure that you are ready and 100% tomorrow?
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
One of the key lessons we learn as we mature is that we can't take the simple way out and only do what seems to be right for today. We have to balance what we do today with what the future consequences are going to be.

That is the difference between success and mediocrity or failure in most walks of life. It takes guts to give 100% for the long term even when it results in less than ideal outcomes in the short term.
Last edited by CADad
J junior5100+ posts
In any of these scenarios have the kids said they are hurt, or feeling pain? Nobody has mention that they have. So why are we assuming that they are hurting? They are playing because they feel they can perform. If you are hurt, you don't feel you can perform. Yes, you are right to take yourself out.
I have never consistantly been a pitcher. I'm mainly a catcher, but if I'm hurting and think I can pull through I'm going to.
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
quote:
but if I'm hurting and think I can pull through I'm going to.


There is a difference between being tired, being sore and being injured. The key is knowing which is which.

There are a lot of mixed messages on this board. It's tough, as a player and a parent, to really know when to keep quiet and when to speak up...

My son has always played for coaches that expected him to finish but never used him more than once a week....That seems normal to me and thus I have never said anything on those rare occasions where he's thrown 120+ pitches.
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
Many with concussions don't say they are hurt or feel pain. That doesn't mean they should go back out there. It exposes them to more severe and lasting problems....just like running a kid back out to the mound for his 180th pitch.

CAdad...really well said and worth repeating.

"One of the key lessons we learn as we mature is that we can't take the simple way out and only do what seems to be right for today. We have to balance what we do today with what the future consequences are going to be.

That is the difference between success and mediocrity or failure in most walks of life. It takes guts to give 100% for the long term even when it results in less than ideal outcomes in the short term."
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
The head coach is wary of starting John in the championship game Sat. night, considering the number of pitches he has thrown in the previous 24 hours, both in the game and in the pen. John assures the HC that his arm feels fine; he demands the ball. The HC is torn: he knows that by starting John, he gives his team the best chance to bring home a state championship. By not starting him, he helps ensure the health of John's right arm, thus safeguarding his upcoming collegiate tryout. At John's urging, the HC starts him. John pitches a gem (another 106 pitches), and wins a state championship. John is on the bottom of the dog-pile; his ring size is 11.5.


John is the ace of the staff and as the ace, he delivered. It's baseball and you play to win at this level. Forget about the upcoming collegiate tryout. That should be focused on after the state championship. The problem I have is saving these pitchers for things they haven't done yet while sacrificing what is supposed to be done in the present. You play for now and worry about later. Where's the committment to the team if John don't pitch because he's got some showcase on a future date?

If John says he's ready, arm is in great shape, tells the coach he wants the ball and the team is counting on John, then there's nothing wrong with John pitching.

If John says he feels great but is saving himself for the tryout, than that's totally bush and shows lack of committment and selfishness on the player's part.

If John say's his arm don't quite feel right or feels like his arm needs a couple more days rest and by trying to pitch, he would hurt the team, then John is completely right here and the coach has to listen to the player.
Last edited by zombywoof
P P&CMom100+ posts
reposted by p&cmom:

quote:
Originally posted by P&CMom:
Pitching sidearm or submarine is not quite like a softball or slow pitch motion. It relieves the stress from the shoulder, but often transfers to torque to the elbow and wrist. Often, pitchers who have problems with their shoulders drop down to a side arm or submarine slot to relieve the stress.

Take a look at the photos or videos of side arm/ submarine pitchers and they often lead with their elbow. Softball and slow pitch motions seem to use more of the whole arm, but even at that, the rotator cuff and labrum are taking on an unnatural workload.

It would be great to know if ASMI has studied this kind of motion.

Heroic or crazy? IDK, but having been to ASMI with two players, seeing them go through 2 labrum, one Tommy John, and one L5 and 6 back surgery, I can tell you that any repetitive motion takes its toll. Watching a few sidearm pitchers, one of whom threw 155+ pitches in one game, I can tell you that it is not as easy to tell when their motion breaks down.

Often players are out there on pure adrenaline and could not tell if their arm is falling off, much less hurting. It is often not as obvious with sidearm pitchers when their mechanics start breaking down because they can go into a variety of slots. That does not mean that they are not suffering, just that they are playing through it.

Pitch count and limits in non-professional ball are not meant to dumb down the sport. If anything, I think it makes it a much more interesting and competitive sport. Certainly, good common sense, and good, intelligent coaching should dictate use of pitchers, but that is not always the case. In youth sports (and I include most college sports, although it could be argued that D1 is mostly a professional undertaking), in the heat of the game, the W seems to drive decisions, rather than athlete's well being.

Pro teams are even becoming more astute in their use of, and conservation of, players. They are recognizing that they are assets and they want to preserve them. Taking the long view is often harder, but smarter.

The high school or college player may not ever play pro ball, but they may want to lift up their children, play toss with their son or daughter, brush their own teeth, or cut their food.

I am all for supporting the team and putting the team need before the needs of individuals, but sometimes, putting the needs of the individual over the immediate need of the team is actually more beneficial to the team in the long run. It can cause more pitchers to be developed and available to pitch. It can be unselfish in that, while it might be great for one pitcher to go the distance, what happens when he suddenly can't? You hand the ball to the same guy too many times and you haven't developed anyone else. You have also not shown confidence in anyone else. Suddenly, you are in post season play and have to rely on a pitcher that you've only used a couple of times. Suddenly, you are putting the ball in someones hand and saying "I know that you can do this." Then, why haven't you used them before?

There will never be an agreement on this. Old school v. new ways. Pu***es v real men. Men v women. Moms v Dads. Coaches v parents. Science v creationism. Nature v nurture. There is no right or wrong. However, I would rather err on the side of protecting any player from harm over taking the win.
Unless, perhaps there is adult making multiple millions of dollars putting himself on the line and making the decision. Even then, the franchise has a vested interest that is going to be expressed, if not be decisive.
Last edited by P&CMom
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by junior5:
A kid doesn't think about being injured which is why you guys are right. Everything is sore and hurt, which is why we keep playing through it.


You are right, they don't think about being injured, and it's just not about baseball. That's part of being young, you are indestructible. That's why parents need to help their kids to understand that in anything they do there is a risk, and then weigh in on the consequences. That includes baseball.
You are a catcher so not sure if you understand how much the pitcher needs to be healthy for his accuracy. You have a catchers mentality and that's good, you guys are the warriors, but don't expect that to be the same for pitchers.
My son plays baseball for a living, if we had not set restrictions when he was young, he most likely would be doing something else right now. he expressed an interest to go to college and play ball, and perhaps go further, and we helped him to achieve that posssibility by doing what we thought was best for him....as a pitcher.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
quote:
The head coach is wary of starting John in the championship game Sat. night, considering the number of pitches he has thrown in the previous 24 hours, both in the game and in the pen. John assures the HC that his arm feels fine; he demands the ball. The HC is torn: he knows that by starting John, he gives his team the best chance to bring home a state championship. By not starting him, he helps ensure the health of John's right arm, thus safeguarding his upcoming collegiate tryout. At John's urging, the HC starts him. John pitches a gem (another 106 pitches), and wins a state championship. John is on the bottom of the dog-pile; his ring size is 11.5.


John is the ace of the staff and as the ace, he delivered. It's baseball and you play to win at this level. Forget about the upcoming collegiate tryout. That should be focused on after the state championship. The problem I have is saving these pitchers for things they haven't done yet while sacrificing what is supposed to be done in the present. You play for now and worry about later. Where's the committment to the team if John don't pitch because he's got some showcase on a future date?

If John says he's ready, arm is in great shape, tells the coach he wants the ball and the team is counting on John, then there's nothing wrong with John pitching.

If John says he feels great but is saving himself for the tryout, than that's totally bush and shows lack of committment and selfishness on the player's part.

If John say's his arm don't quite feel right or feels like his arm needs a couple more days rest and by trying to pitch, he would hurt the team, then John is completely right here and the coach has to listen to the player.


That's all well and good. The problem is that the research has shown that number of pitches and rest between outings contributes greatly to arm injuries. No one knew that back in the day. People do now. Just because John says he feels good enough to do it, doesn't mean he should. The coach should be the one to make that call. Even if the kid wants to do it. I would never have a kid start the day after he pitched 88 pitches the day before. You would never see a major league team do it and I don't think you would see a college team do it.
P P&CMom100+ posts
TPM,

You are very right.

Unfortunately, during our visits with Dr. Andrews and ASMI, we were told that they are seeing more and more catchers. One of ours is a pitcher and the other is a catcher. The catcher has had two arm surgeries, the pitcher a back and a labrum surgery.

Catchers can be great receiving catchers and not have a great arm. They can hit and have arm problems. If a catcher is a great receiver and is used to throwing guys out, it is very obvious when there is an arm problem. And yes, because they are warriors, they will try to play through it. Their throws won't be as fast, or as accurate. They will chalk it up to fatigue or muscle strain. Then, one day, they can't comb their hair, much less throw a ball.

Catchers don't get the scrutiny that a pitcher does. If his throw downs aren't what they should be, they might get a word from coach about getting the ball there, but usually no one really is focused on their mechanics the way pitchers have their mechanics watched.

Truth is, catchers have more wear and tear than most pitchers. After all, they catch whole games, sometimes double headers. They throw back almost every pitch a pitcher throws, for every pitcher during a game.

I, for one, don't think that a team can have enough good pitchers AND catchers (within roster limits, of course) and like to see the work spread around.

As I have said - the long view is often the smartest, least selfish view for both the team and the player.
Last edited by P&CMom
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by P&CMom:
TPM,

You are very right.

Unfortunately, during our visits with Dr. Andrews and ASMI, we were told that they are seeing more and more catchers. One of ours is a pitcher and the other is a catcher. The catcher has had two arm surgeries, the pitcher a back and a labrum surgery.

Catchers can be great receiving catchers and not have a great arm. They can hit and have arm problems. If a catcher is a great receiver and is used to throwing guys out, it is very obvious when there is an arm problem. And yes, because they are warriors, they will try to play through it. Their throws won't be as fast, or as accurate. They will chalk it up to fatigue or muscle strain. Then, one day, they can't comb their hair, much less throw a ball.

Catchers don't get the scrutiny that a pitcher does. If his throw downs aren't what they should be, they might get a word from coach about getting the ball there, but usually no one really is focused on their mechanics the way pitchers have their mechanics watched.

Truth is, catchers have more wear and tear than most pitchers. After all, they catch whole games, sometimes double headers. They throw back almost every pitch a pitcher throws, for every pitcher during a game.

I, for one, don't think that a team can have enough good pitchers AND catchers (within roster limits, of course) and like to see the work spread around.

As I have said - the long view is often the smartest, least selfish view for both the team and the player.


I was just responding to junior's many posts regarding taking out a pitcher even if he feels he should stay in.
Catchers get hurt, they play hurt, like I said they are warriors. And like you said they do not have to have great arms, a pitcher can't do anything without his arm. Frown
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Hey, I am the first to admit, the pitcher is only as good as his catcher. Wink

I do understand his passion, even at 25 it's hard for a pitcher to come out of the game, it's part of what it is all about, but at some point, especially early in a pitcher's career, someone has to be the watchdog. Common sense doesn't always prevail in the heat of a close game.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
Unfortunately, during our visits with Dr. Andrews and ASMI, we were told that they are seeing more and more catchers. One of ours is a pitcher and the other is a catcher. The catcher has had two arm surgeries, the pitcher a back and a labrum surgery.


It has been five years since ASMI released their position statement regarding reduction of risk of injury and advancement to higher levels of play. Is there any proof, either scientific or anecdotal that the nations youth baseball players following these guidelines have experienced a reduction in injuries?

No. The reason? Because parents want to focus on what parents can easily agree to. Pitch count limits for their sons. What about the other recommendations?

Pitch types? Multiple appearances? Other position play? For instance, your kid hits the predetermined pitch count, now he is placed in right field. Here's my favorite....showcases? Have a cow if he goes over a pitch count but he's registered for several showcases also. College select camps? Multiple leagues? Year round baseball? Practice? Pitching lessons? Lack of active rest. Conditioning?

The truth is with all this going on...nobody truly
knows the condition of Johnny's arm at any point except maybe Johnny himself. It just makes all this pitch count stuff, a farce.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
All,

No question in my mind that the most important position on the field is ..... catcher. Catchers can make you or break you. I've always said that a team can only be as good as their catcher. This statement has held true from rec youth baseball all the way to college ball.

PA Dino,

I agree with just about everything you've said. Yes, there are a lot of variables, and they are mostly subjective. It is hard to pinpoint anything. However, in a somewhat controlled environment a pitch count gives you a metric, and possibly starting point. It is not the end all be all, but it is at the very least something to consider using numbers as an evaluation coupled with common sense and experience.

For example, I know a youth baseball coach that pitched a 14 yr old kid 65 pitches in a Thursday night game. He wanted to bring him back to start a Saturday 12pm game with 1 day of recovery. The kid said he felt fine, but you and I know the kid just wanted the ball. I told the coach I did not think it was a good idea based purely on the kids Thurs 65 pitches and my experience coaching. Yes, it is a simple example. But I got the coach to agree that he should allow 1 day of recovery for every inning pitched. The coach agreed to try this 1 day of recovery for every inning pitched as a starting point, and adjust accordingly for all pitchers. He also agreed to chart this on the scorebook. Again, I think having a plan to be backed by numbers gives you a starting point and has some value. Thoughts?

PS...1 inning = 15 pitches in our example. I forgot to include that little tidbit.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
Fenwaysouth,

I think you're exactly right.

On many youth and high school teams, the ace is more effective when tired and sore than the next best pitcher is when well rested.

The baseball field is not a lab and never will be. However, having some sort of starting point for saying, "Ok, maybe the big guy needs a break," can help a lot.

And if a coach also starts a season knowing that a pitcher has additional risk factors identified by ASMI, such as not taking a season off for conditioning, doing showcases, and throwing curveballs before age 14, the coach can know to be a little extra careful with the one factor he can measure during the season.

By the way, the injury prevention value of knowing a player's personal history is one reason I recommend finding ONE travel coach you trust and sticking with him. Accumulating a closet full of uniforms from various and sundry short-term and cameo team affiliations, especially joining a team just for one big tournament, is just asking to be "rode hard and put up wet."
Last edited by Swampboy
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
I agree with just about everything you've said. Yes, there are a lot of variables, and they are mostly subjective. It is hard to pinpoint anything. However, in a somewhat controlled environment a pitch count gives you a metric, and possibly starting point. It is not the end all be all, but it is at the very least something to consider using numbers as an evaluation coupled with common sense and experience.



This is recently the most clear and concise post regarding the role of pitch counts I've read. It acknowledges the limitations on relying on one tool to treat the symptoms of an injury that is the result of a variety of overuse factors. While at the same time defends the method for having some value in the fight. I can respect a well thought out opinion such as this as compared to the tactic of scaring someone into compliance with the threat of not being able to perform day to day activities like brushing your teeth.

What I can't hack is the duplicity of parents vilifying coaches for exceeding pitch counts when they arguably place their son's arms at greater risk by permitting multiple showcases, college camps, private pitching lessons, year round play without effective rest, select travel team and tournament play, high school practice and competition at various positions and college visits with pitching bullpens for coaches. Every one of these parents is hoping that the kid's arm holds out just long enough to sign a letter of intent and then we can go from there. I've been through to grinder.

The driving force behind it all being, a roster spot on a college team with it's associated scholarship money. Which if parents are honest could have been saved easily given all the money invested in the recruiting buildup and process. All when an academic scholarship would be much more appropriate and in many instances easier to obtain.

I really see high school coaches being held hostage over this issue and for what? Looking at most college pitching staffs, they rely heavily on three to five pitchers and then there are the role players. If you are good in college the abuse is going to come or if you are not good and (there are a lot of college pitchers who are not good participating in college programs that are not good) your talent will be exposed and the arm you saved will never get used.

You develop your later opportunities by creating a resume. That means pitching in important games, garnering pitching accolades, impressing recruiters with your toughness and makeup. College coaches don't primarily consider the health of your arm....they consider if you can help them win now. So I just see the whole thing as putting off the inevitable if you are good and passing up opportunity you will never get again if you are marginal.

Let's just leave the elite pro prospect pitcher out of this completely. He is a completely different animal with considerations only lottery winners ever have to face.

The average high school pitcher ought to seize the moment and let the chips fall where they may. 99.9% of the things we worry about happening never come to be. The other .1% can be dealt with.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:
I really see high school coaches being held hostage over this issue and for what? Looking at most college pitching staffs, they rely heavily on three to five pitchers and then there are the role players. If you are good in college the abuse is going to come or if you are not good and (there are a lot of college pitchers who are not good participating in college programs that are not good) your talent will be exposed and the arm you saved will never get used.

You develop your later opportunities by creating a resume. That means pitching in important games, garnering pitching accolades, impressing recruiters with your toughness and makeup. College coaches don't primarily consider the health of your arm....they consider if you can help them win now. So I just see the whole thing as putting off the inevitable if you are good and passing up opportunity you will never get again if you are marginal.





Your information about college coaches being harder on pitchers than high school coaches is not current. This assertion is often made, but the facts don't back it up. Boydsworld posts a list of every D1 game in which a pitcher throws more than 120 pitches or is otherwise used excessively. Several high school pitchers in our area would be at or near the top of his list of most "abused" college pitchers in the country, and no college pitchers this year have been used anything like the astounding stories related in the "enough is enough" companion thread.

Granted, once a college team gets to the super-regional, you can see some very high pitch counts on very short rest, but during the regular season, almost no 20 or 21 year old college pitchers get used the way many 17 and 18 year old high school workhorses do.
Last edited by Swampboy
C ctandc500+ posts
I was a pitcher.

That being said. I think A LOT Of DIFFERENT things are contributing to the number of arm injuries that young pitchers are experiencing.

One big one is overuse. Some parents might get upset when Johnny throws 100 pitches on Monday, but don't think twice about Johnny going to his pitching lesson on Wednesday night.

Or Johnny pitches 100 pitches, then goes and plays SS or 3B...

The other is conditioning. THROWING is different than conditioning. I just don't think kids today throw as much as we did when I was growing up. We threw ALL the time it seems.

Do Coaches pay attention to each pitcher's specific mechanics? Do they KNOW when a certain pitcher is tired and his mechanics are failing?

I think pitch counts are a good guideline..but they do leave a lot to be desired.

While I agree that many kids WANT To compete and WANT to win, I also believe that a MAJORITY (not all) of the time that when a pitcher is tired or hurting, if someone is paying attention they can tell.

Every arm is different. That's simple fact.

Mindset is different as well. I know that I always felt like I wanted to keep a little gas in the tank. Other guys went full out all the time...

TO err on the side of safety is great. But sometimes you have to let competitors compete.

And to the study that said adrenaline can make a pitcher not even feel pain? Wish I had read that study back when my arm got hurt.

I tore my shoulder up badly. Turns out my injury was a result of multiple dislocations of the shoulder from playing HS Football. Specialist said it was a rare cause for a common injury (rotator cuff). Mine was a tear..

Adrenaline or not...I knew I was hurt,and everyone in hearing distance knew I was too.

Injuries happen. That's not to say that you should abuse young arms...but every situation is different.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
Your information about college coaches being harder on pitchers than high school coaches is not current. This assertion is often made, but the facts don't back it up. Boydsworld posts a list of every D1 game in which a pitcher throws more than 120 pitches or is otherwise used excessively. Several high school pitchers in our area would be at or near the top of his list of most "abused" college pitchers in the country, and no college pitchers this year have been used anything like the astounding stories related in the "enough is enough" companion thread.


I'll take a closer look at this but will say that the total number of innings a season I've seen for college can be in the high 90's and I haven't seen that in high school, more like high 50's wouldn't you agree? We can't just look at game day pitch counts here, agreed?

I would suggest that the DII and DIII pitchers on staffs that are not deep are overtly overused. I think I can find stats to back that up in any conference you choose. DI includes pro prospects and very talented pitchers in the top 25 rankings which is a much smaller sample of players.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
I don't know anything about D2, D3, NAIA, or JUCO usage patterns, so you could find me a persuadable audience if you present some data.

Innings pitched is a different measure, but your numbers aren't alarming. I have heard one major conference pitching coach with a phenomenal record keeping his pitchers healthy say he believes pitchers should not throw more than 100 competitive pitches times their age in a calender year. A 20 year old throwing 90 innings in a college season would almost certainly be within that range. Also, if those 90 innings are distributed over a D1 season, it works out to less than 8 innings per week, which is almost certainly in the ballpark of recommended pitch limits.

The typical D1 program uses about 15-18 pitchers to get about 1500 outs in the season. That's manageable, even with high variation in the number of innings pitched by each pitcher.
C cmcconnell10+ posts
One of the many things I love about this forum is the multiple directions each thread tends to take once the ball gets rolling.

As an addendum to my original post . . . would the same parents/coaches who, under normal circumstances, would be against starting a pitcher on consecutive days, be for the idea if it was a once in a lifetime opportunity (ie. state title game)? For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the coach has been mindful of the kid's pitch counts, rest, conditioning throughout the season. Let's also assume that the pitcher in question gives his team the best chance at victory.

Can we make a distinction between gross overuse throughout one's career vs. once-in-a-season overuse?

FWIW, I have been fortunate enough to have both won a state title as a player and coached in multiple state tourneys. Never did a starting pitcher throw on consecutive days, though it was heavily discussed.

I appreciate all of your thoughts on the topic.
C cmcconnell10+ posts
quote:
A 20 year old throwing 90 innings in a college season would almost certainly be within that range. Also, if those 90 innings are distributed over a D1 season, it works out to less than 8 innings per week, which is almost certainly in the ballpark of recommended pitch limits.

The typical D1 program uses about 15-18 pitchers to get about 1500 outs in the season. That's manageable, even with high variation in the number of innings pitched by each pitcher



That ideolgy seems sound, though I'd be curious to see how those ratios play out if you factor in bullpen sessions/split-squad scrimmages during the fall and spring, not to mention the work load taken on in summer leagues. I guess the question is "how do you characterize a competitive pitch, as it relates to stress on the arm?
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
As good as I think Boyd Nation is on his ISR's, etc..., his pitch count estimates are suspect in my mind from firsthand experience a few years ago. Wink

Kind of funny, I emailed him once thinking he would be interested in an 'actual' number tabulated by Mrs. justbaseball and confirmed within 1 or 2 pitches by the boy's coach (Boyd's estimate was off by 15-20 pitches if I remember right). His response and ensuing discussion via email was one in which he really struggled to accept that his model could have been off, even though he knew that I likely had the exact number.

I woulda thought he'd have used my data point to explore his model further...but I think he was more interested in explaining to me how I couldn't be right.

Oh well.
Last edited by justbaseball
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