Without Scholarships what does D3 "recruitment" mean in practice?

When my son attended Trinity in San Antonio the football coach called and offered my son a uniform if he wanted to play football. 
I guess that meant he was recruited. Lol

I am not sure about CLU but at my son's program I do not think any of the players not recruited made the fall team. They had an open try out for "walkons" and I think my son said that 1 made it over the 4 years he was there. Again all programs are different, but since a program has put in the time and effort to recruit an athlete they don't want to worry about trying to make a decision based on one day tryout. I also know that the coaches have point blank told players to not come to my son's school if they wanted to play baseball as they would have no chance of making the team. These coaches have limited time and they don't want to waste it on athletes that are not likely going to improve their squad. I also noticed that over the 4 years he was there their recruiting classes seem to be getting larger, typically in the 20-25 range. The team seems to naturally get cut down to 45ish active players through attrition of various kinds.

Ah, so it COULD be that those 30 players on the incoming list were all recruited?  I guess I was assuming -- based on what I don't know -- that a school wouldn't recruit anything like that many - especially not with 30 or so older players returning.

 

Very hard to know until he shows up for the first practice. If the coach is filling an entire JV roster with mostly freshmen, that alone could be 10-20 kids. Sounds like sophomore year is the tough one. Not all of those JV guys can move up to varsity, along with a few true freshmen and transfers.

 

Has your son made any contacts with players on the current roster? That's often the best place to get this kind of information.

 

Just with his three baseball playing  roommates.  (With whom he starts living in 9 days)

It is always difficult for freshman entering any college. Over 1oo players desiring the same goal. Years ago at MSU, over 125 tried out for the Freshman team, 4 years later only 5 players played on the College World Series team in Omaha, including three QB and one hockey player.

 

AT SSU, this week 100 players will tryout for the 24 roster positions. When I coached the hitters, I asked the Head Coach to only work with the best 10 hitters.

 

"Red shirt" is always an option.

 

Bob

Did I read this correctly?   Does the D3 coach tell each of these 30 kids that I like your baseball talent, brings them in for a visit/tour during their senior year in HS, tells them come to our school, and tells them you will tryout once you get here to make the team?  Be interested to hear others experiences with D3 recruitment and what the reality is when they arrive in the fall.

 

Wouldn't seem like you would go to a D3 school without a guaranteed roster spot to begin. Obviously, you need to produce to play though. 

No, you didn't read that correctly.  I said I presume that NOT all of the 30 were recruited.  But I also said I didn't really know for sure.   All I know for sure is that there are 30 guys on the "incoming player" list.  That could easily include some guys who signaled to the coach that they intend to walk on. There are ample opportunities to do so. So  I'm presuming that it does include such guys.  But since there are no scholarships attached to recruitment, I wonder if the walk-on/recruited distinction has much meaning at D3 in general.

Sluggerdad, your assessment is fairly accurate.  This varies quite a bit by school but it is not uncommon for D3's to recruit as many players as they can.  Ever wonder why there are more JV programs at D3's than any other level?  Well, one aspect that hasn't been discussed in this thread is this - D3 sports are a way to get more students to attend and pay tens of thousands of dollars in tuition to the schools (even after significant academic aid).  Because there is no athletic $$, there is no reason to limit the number of players, particularly if there is a JV program to take the overflow.  The cost of running a JV program, particularly with an abbreviated schedule, is normally quite a bit less than those tens of thousands in tuition from each player that the school receives.  So, yes, there are plenty of D3's where coaches will recruit lots of players with some of the thought process or directive being to increase overall school attendance and tuition income.

 

I recall trying to point this out when you were earlier in the process but based on your comments I suspect this aspect is not really a concern for you.  For others, though, it is something everyone should be aware of as they go through the process. 

 

I have talked to multiple players who have been "recruited" by D3 coaches and think they are a definite part of the plan for the V squad, only to find themselves cut or relegated to JV in the fall.  One player in particular wasn't cut until either very late fall or early spring when it was too late to make a change.  At first I was quite surprised because we're talking about Christian schools and there was definitely some less-than-forthright discussion during the courting.  I also have coached and spoken to several who went to D3's and had great experiences.  If there is one difference I can identify it is this... during courtship, coach is more specific about where he see's a player fit with the players who he knows will become contributors.  i.e. - "We see you as one of our weekend rotation guys year 1".  Whereas, conversation with fringe players goes something more like "we see you as an important part of the program" and "many players come in and spend first year on JV but then become key contributors for us as sophomores or juniors".

 

With many of these schools, assignment to JV means very high likelihood the player will never see V.  With others, there is some migration.

 

Certainly if the coaches have spent multiple trips watching the player and working with them to get them through the admission process, this is a player that is much more likely to stick with the V squad than, say a true walk-on, but some of the players I referred to who were cut and/or placed on JV got some of that same time, attention and help.  Have those specific questions ready regarding where the coach sees the player fitting and when.  Nothing is a guarantee and it is totally up to the player to compete in the fall but gather as much info as you can in the decision-making process and know that many D3's have a more-the-merrier approach.  The one impact example I'll leave everyone is this... player was seen twice by coach, went to school for workout, was actively courted to attend and helped significantly through admissions, received somewhere between $15-20K in aid and was still cut first fall.  Ask the questions!

 

Is it possible that all 30 players were "recruited"?  My guess is that most of them were at least courted to one degree or another, especially if they are on a list that the coach knows about.

So, is the lesson here to ask in the recruiting process:

 

1. How many kids are in the recruiting class?

2. How many kids will be in the program in the Fall versus on the roster in the Spring?

3. Does the program have a JV team?

You could also ask a former player, or post on this board if anyone knows the recruiting practices of a particular school/coach.  I will say that I am not familiar with the practices of a lot of schools, but the local JC brings in a ton of kids each fall.  I also just heard of a Pac 12 school that is bringing in 52 kids this Fall!  They can only keep 35, so it's not just the D-3 schools.

But at a D1 there's at least a clear differentiation between the scholarship players and the rest, I would think. 

Heard something similar; probably same Pac 12 program.  What do these kids that get "cut" in December end up doing?  Try to quickly transfer somewhere else where they can play?  

 

Heard that a local 2016 kid with 2+ year verbal commitment was just recently advised by a (different) Pac 12 program to look elsewhere as there was no longer a realistic roster spot available for him.  Ouch.  I guess certain programs cast a wide verbal commitment net and then cull it down as they get closer to signing day.  I imagine the family's next garage sale will include a bunch of that program's gear...

The message I was trying to convey is to be aware of the motives and perspective from the other side - in this instance, particular to D3.  Don't totally fall for the girl just cuz she's hot and she smiled at you.  Get to know her before you... ok, maybe bad analogy...  before you marry her, yeah, that's what I was going to say    Ask the questions at the detail level so you know better where you fit.  Not so much how many kids in recruiting class but where coach sees you on depth chart at your position.  Not so much if the have a JV team, but if applicable, how many kids each year make the leap from JV to V.  Very few coaches will guarantee playing time or a starting spot nor should they.  But most coaches will answer if asked if they feel you are a lock for a roster spot or if he feels you will compete for playing time freshman year.  Most coaches will answer if asked what their philosophy is on how many "x" position guys he'll recruit and then keep on the roster.  Those types of detailed questions will leave you in a better place to make smart decisions and will lead to other good questions.

 

Oh, and definitely what Ryno said... use resources to find out about common practices as it pertains to any specific school you are considering.  This site is often a gold mine or at least a great starting point to other potential resources. 

That is true, but they are bringing them in recruiting them as walkons, and when they don't make the team they are already enrolled.  It's pretty similar. 

Son told me just the other day that a 2015, who signed with a PAC 12 school, different than the one I previously posted about, pulled a local kids scholly this summer.  He is now at a D-3.   I will say that son was a participant in the state all star game, and the PAC 12 school was there, and they weren't happy with the shape the kid was in. So I doubt he was really surprised. 

I've often said that D3's break just as many hearts as D1's do:  they just wait until the players are already on campus to do it.

Spot on, Just because you are not a top 250 recruit, it hurts just as much when you are cut from a program! ....actually maybe more as a D1 has drop down options, a D3 has none. College baseball is hard. Period. 

Its an opportunity to tryout unless the coach tells you he has a roster spot reserved for you.

Agree with swampboy.  But once you are on a d3 team it seems you earn some playing time equity and your biggest competition is upper classmen because there is less roster churn.  With d1 , the competition comes from the incoming class because there is greater roster churn with junior's draft eligible and fewer seniors sticking with it  Just an observation.

Excuse my brevity and spelling as I'm typing wif my fumbs.

I don't care what you call it (recruited, walk-on, guaranteed roster spot); you show up, work hard and the best players play, those that make a contribution sit on the bench and those that are not part of the immediate plan continue to try to make a difference.

 

In my mind, players and parents need to get "real" fast. You should be evaluating your future before you ever step onto a college campus. The pyramid gets smaller and smaller and just because a player chooses a D3 is not a reason to expect less competition.

 

I don't know what they do at all D3's but from what I have seen both at the school my son played at as well as those that he competed against. Coaches are trying to field teams that can win. The foundation is having the horses that can play and competing at all aspects of the game.

 

If you show up on campus without that understanding then someone has made a huge mistake.

 

 

Very well put!

Been studying the historical roster of my son's D3 a little just to get a better sense of players career trajectories through the program. A whole lot of variance.   I don't know if it is possible to generalize -- either at this school or across different schools.

 

One  thing that that strikes me about this particular school is that guys aren't necessarily brought in with the idea that they will necessarily make an immediate impact.  But definitely some do get major opportunities as frosh.   Several from last years rosters were given big opportunities their  freshman year. Some clearly stepped up in a big way. Most of last years 5 varsity frosh only got marginal playing time, though.  Probably the coaches do regard certain guys as major impact guys right away. But some of the language used to describe them is "so and so emerged as a major contributor"  at some point in the season.  For one play, it was 'at play off time."  For another player it was "forced his way into the lineup"  midway through the season.  

 

If you look back over the years,  you can see that  a fair number that had marginal impact as frosh did, nonetheless, eventually emerge as major contributors by junior or senior year -- including one eventual draft pick -- made smallish to no  contributions during freshman and sometimes even sophomore year.

 

A fair number of kids did drop out along the way.  Fair number of frosh from year x are not on the roster in year x+1.   Also, I was kind of surprised by the fairly regular stream of JC transfer.  Guess I expected less of that at D3. 

 

The one thing that is not displayed by this particular school are the year-to-year JV rosters. So the only way to know who played JV in earlier years is through the past bios of that year's varsity players.  Not all that many varsity players seem to have spent any time playing JV  (though a lot were used sparingly as frosh)   Leads me to conclude that playing for the JV frosh year is not anything like a sure stepping stone to the varsity in this program -- though, again, a few players have made that transition. 

 

Again, I don't know if this is par for the course.  But engaging in this exercise makes me want to  advise anybody who really wants to be fully informed at decision time to do a little roster digging of this sort before committing.  It's could be quite an eye opener. It would take you far beyond the kind of generalities that a coach might tend to talk to you in.  

 

 

Great Advice.  

 

(My son said to me the other day my approach is that if there are 5 outfielders,  I'm always going to try to regard myself as the 5th man -- the guy who has to work his butt off to get a chance at all.)

I think it's worth mentioning that while we often generalize D3 as high-academic, many (or most) of the top D3 baseball programs don't fit that category. Only 2 of the 8 D3 CWS teams this year are what I would call high-academic. So these very competitive programs with more modest academic selectivity look a lot like D1 and D2 when it comes to things like transfers, retention, etc.

First to fenway...Excuse my brevity and spelling as I'm typing wif my fumbs.

 

LMAO. I just spewed coffee on the keyboard.

 

Now to sluggerdad: BOY. Are we right there with you on the clusterF that is D3 recruiting. If it weren't for the opportunity to gain admission to a really excellent top 20 school in the US when maybe he wouldn't otherwise, I would not be jumping through these hoops.

 

In the parent recruiting session earlier this month: head coach states he will invite 50 guys back to spend a weekend this fall and expects that 30 will accept. Froom those he will "support" 13-15 early decision apps through the admissions process. He expects 10-12 to make it through.

 

The rest are obviously welcome to try and apply and get accepted on their own and show up to fall tryouts next fall to compete for one of 60 spots for fall that will then be whittled down to 40-42 fro spring.

 

As to the returning players: let's say there were 40. 15 have been told they have no worries for the next year. 10 graduated. The other 15 have to compete for one of the 60 spots again and subsequently the spring roster of 40.

 

SO, there are 45 spots available in the fall. 15 are upperclassman guaranteed. 15 guys trying out are returning players. 15 guys were "supported" through admissions. The remaining 15? Guys who randomly show up and/or are one of the 15 not supported through admissions with the HC blessing?

 

While I am deeply STRESSING OUT over this whole process, kid wants to go to school there BAD, has been told by the HC a letter was mailed to him on Tuesday morning, has hit the door after school 2 days in a row, headed straight to my office just to look into my eyes for some sort of sign that the letter was in the mail, got no such indication, and turned and walked away. This house is rife with tension boy.

 

All over some "dumb" D3 school (okay - not dumb in that sense). Look. Lots of folks might discount anything lesser than D1, but I'm here to tell you that it all depends on your BIG PICTURE agenda and objective.

 

OKAY HERE'S A NEW QUESTION: shouldn't the HC have called or something? Or is the above scenario just common to the whole D3 process? If said letter isn't in the mailbox today, should kid call HC? I mean time is wasting and he needs to move on to plan B which is actually only about 90 minutes up the road from plan A if you know what I mean, while plans C through F are also falling into place.

 

Now mind you I don't want kid making his final decision until he visits the school one more time and actually we all want to go see the fall team play for obvious reasons. This presents a conundrum in that HC wants a copy of the early decision app but that app should it be accepted locks him into attending that school. RIGHT?

 

See. ClusterF.

Early decision (which is binding) or early action (which is not)?  Hopefully the latter not the former. 

I heard him say early decision. And I just went to the website and this school doesn't offer early action. It reminds me of a Mexican standoff actually. And that's a risk I'd prefer not take with a school double digit hours away from home.

They typically say "go where you are loved."  At the D1 level (and others), love is shown by money.  At the D3 level, how do you know you are loved? 

 

 

First off, good luck.  Second, I understand your level of stress. I'd be going nuts.  But assuming you see that letter in the mail today, what you call a ClusterF is to me a best case scenario.  IF the coach puts your kid on his early decision list, AND it's a school that your kid really, really wants to go to, then to me that's a best case scenario for a D3 recruit, and one that I would hope my kid finds himself in next year.  Applying to a dozen schools is no fun.  Getting  a kid without specific academic and/or career goals to drill down and figure out where he wants to go is also no fun.

Well, there's that question,  but even if you knew how to answer it,  there's still the Carol King question  "Will you still love me, tomorrow?"

 

Seems clear to me in retrospect that when it comes down to decision time,  you may need to be  direct with D3 coaches and directly  ask them where they see you in the pecking order coming in.   We didn't really do that.   So we really don't know.  We definitely know they LIKE the kid.  But do we know that they LOVE him?  Not at all.  

 

The kid's attitude, though, is probably the right one.  He says that if there are 5 outfielders competing, he's going to approach it like he is the fifth guy with the most to prove from day 1.   (Call it the "I'm going to make you love me" philosophy.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTFvBL9323k&nbsp)

 

Well just dropped the kid off. Had informative talk with recruiting coordinator who was open and honest about how they work. They really do "recruit" a lot of players -- some number of whom they fully "expect to make an immediate impact," others of whom "they expect to compete" -- sometimes against an incumbent with whom they aren't satisfied -- for an "open  job," and a third category  of talented players that aren't necessarily there to compete for a designated open job but might add depth.  Plus they don't turn away quality  players who contact them and say they want a chance to tryout for the team. I guess that's how you get to 30 incoming. Main takeaway is that  little is guaranteed and everything has to be earned.

SluggerDad,

 

Thanks for the update.  I'm trying to stay up on this thread.  So, what are your impressions of the differences between what you were told "recruiting" meant before your son was accepted to this D3 school and "recruiting" now that you've dropped your son off?  The recent conversation you had with the recruiting coach, was that spelled out on the front-end before he applied ED?  If your son received help from the Coaches with Admissions, and benefited from it that would be a good thing.  

 

Other than reviewing the roster history what other words of wisdom could you provide to Worth It, JCG, and others?  What would you do differently if anything?

We weren't really told what recruiting meant in general before we showed up. It wasn't at all broken down for us in the same way.  Frankly, we  didn't think to ask, given the enthusiasm the coaches showed and the hard sell we were given on our visit. Call it naivety and in experience on our parts.

 

It's much clearer now than it was then that the kid was brought in to "compete for an open position" and not necessarily "to make an immediate impact."     Coach talked to the kid a lot about what it will take to win that position and why it hasn't been sewn up by certain upperclassmen.  He had heard some of this before.   We were told when we visited that  RF and CF were sewn up by seniors for now, but that there was no heir apparent.   We were also told that they were looking for a steady LF guy.  But that was just as the season was starting and the likelihood was that somebody would step in and win the position.  So what he told us in our meeting wasn't inconsistent with anything we had heard before; but it was more pointed and detailed.   And now the kid knows more about who he is competing with --both upperclassmen and freshman. 

 

All in all, the kid is not dissatisfied with his choice.  It's clear that the coaches  see him as a guy brought in to compete for a position, not as a guy destined to win one, It's also  clear it's not going to be easy.   I'm sure those upperclassmen know there is a job on the line too.  Plus the kid isn't the only kid brought in to compete for that spot. 

 

The main thing I would do differently, and that I would urge anybody else to do,  is just to ask more pointed questions about how they see the player and not be taken in by the sweet sounding  "used car salesman" type talk. I think cabbage already suggested that above, though.  

 

But to illustrate why that is important, just consider this.  There are at least 8 "recruited" players in my son's dorm -- there may be more but he rooms with 3 and met another 4 that live in the same hall.   From comparing notes with each other,   none of them had ANY idea how many new players were being brought in.  And it's easy to discern that most of them are wondering about their own status.   

 

Also I talked to a dad whose daughter is a frosh at my son's school, and lives in my son's dorm, but whose son was recruited by both my son's school and one of the school's main league rivals.  They turned out to have asked a LOT of questions and chose the rival over my kid's school.  The dad said the coach was too vague about what the player's role would be, while the rival explicitly brought him in to play ss.  Plus the rival only brought in 6 or 7 (can't remember which)  new frosh and doesn't do the sort of "cattle call" my son's school does.  It can't, I think, partly because it is rather more selective in its admissions.  I think my son's school gets away with doing what it's doing, because it can admit a somewhat wider ranger of students.

 

So bottom line.  Ask questions.  Direct questions designed to elicit direct answers. You may or may not like the  answers.  But it is really important that you get them if you want to make the most informed decision possible.

 

My son probably would still have chosen this school, if he knew then what he knows now, by the way.  Though the numbers are a bit daunting to say the least, it's a  fit academically for him and although there is no guarantee of immediate playing time, there is a chance to compete and there are no heirs apparent for the OF spots currently claimed by two senior studs. IN that sense, despite our inexperience, things have sort of worked out pretty well. 

 

 

SluggerDad,

 

Excellent advice & post, and thanks for the candid response.  Many on this site can gain from your recent experience and insight.

 

Good luck!

Very, very interesting stuff. Thanks SluggerDad.

 

It's clearly a complicated process, perhaps even more so for D3 recruits, and there are a lot of different ways that people can find their path, or lose it. Maybe I'm a simpleminded person, or maybe I have a need to find a single thread to cling to when I'm confronted with a complex weave of choices and outcomes, but this story just reinforces the one thought that is at the front of my mind whenever my son, wife, and I talk about college and college baseball:  Find the school where you'll be most happy, challenged and successful even if you never set foot on the diamond.

JCG;

The "key" word is research. Ask questions.

 

Attend the fall practices at the local JC or 4 year college. Talk with the players, the parents and watch how the coaches conduct their practices. Gather information to make the important decision.

Remember the player for the 1st two years is a "athlete/student and the 3th year a student/athlete.

One of three freshman will graduate four years later with or without baseball.

 

Bob

 

Yeah, thanks Sluggerdad.  I think, for so many coming to this site, yours is an excellent learning guide to the process.  A great deal of the general advice on the site is sort of "in a perfect world" and/or aimed toward the player who is getting a lot of love, has many choices, knows he can be an impact player at a top program, etc.  But the reality is that most players will fill out the middle 80% of college rosters at the middle 80% of colleges.  Even though they are quite capable at contributing at the college level, they aren't necessarily getting dozens of offers and their competitive nature pushes them to play at the highest level they can for the best school they can.  So, choices at schools that are potential good fits in the eyes of both sides are limited and the love is not necessarily overflowing.  It is not a perfect world for them.  Those specific questions and issues you refer to are exactly what they need to focus in on to greatly improve their chances of making the best choice possible from the baseball side of things.

 

I'll certainly be pulling for yours at his school.

Well we did get the letter and it was postmarked the day the HC said it was. Of the eight choice descriptions of grades/playing ability he could have checked, five were negative and three held hope. He checked one of the three hopeful ones (we believe you could play for us one day...reasonable admissions chance) but then hand wrote "definitely could play" but "biggest concern is transcript strength and some fairly extensive other information.

 

As we figured, the hold up will be getting through admissions, but HC has offered to get a pre-read. Son responded asking if that meant he'd be one of the 12 or so walked through admissions and was told that decision wouldn't be made until October. Son is basically looking for an "offer" but I'm starting to think those don't really exist at the D3 level.Too many other factors involved.

 

Have a rival school who wants him - not a good fit and not first choice, but the RC there did a tiny bit of negative recruiting against first choice school which I found interesting.

 

Now we have a recruiting service after kiddo to help move things along. Faced with money for that, money for additional showcases and money for air and hotel to visit some of the "interested" schools, some days I feel like I should just throw $100 bills in the yard and run over them with my John Deer.

 

At this point, I think we all are kinda paralyzed. I'd like to make flight reservations if necessary, but I WILL NOT call that HC. Kid has to man up and do it...

Worth it,

 

My two cents.....Hope for the best and plan for the worst.  See how the pre-read goes and that will determine next steps with his #1 choice.   He should be "working it" with the #2 school as well as communicating with other schools at this point.  

 

As a parent, I'd start getting Financial packages and information together in anticipation of those next steps.   Things move VERY quickly in Sept/Oct.   We're almost at Sept 1 when the recruiting shoes start dropping in D3 and offers are extended.  An offer implies there is something to benefit the recruit and the school.  Never lose sight of that and best of luck.  We're here to help.