Wood bat fantasy

Good questions.  I'll answer two--

 

Why would somebody want to buy 4 to 10 wood bats at 80.00 to 150.00 every year?

 

Composite wood bats offer a very durable low cost alternative, and hit the ball exactly the same as solid wood.

 

Why would anyone think that 3-2 ball games with no hope of a HR are going to help the game grow in any way?

 

All I can say is that I coach HS kids in summer and fall wood bat leagues and almost all  of the players over the years have made it very clear that they'd much rather play in woodbat leagues than metalbat.  And that includes the smaller/weaker kids who bat .120.   Hard to believe, but it's true.

 

 

General thought...I saw Mark Teixeira summer of Junior year in HS launch a baseball 380 with wood. When you watch wood you believe it, no gimmicks, no reduced MOI from engineering, no 2 5/8" barrel, no 2 piece composite flex.  I believe scouts may want to see BBCOR too but squaring up an 85-90 mph fastball with a 2.5" wood bat provides a pure perspective.

I'll take a stab...

 

College recruiters -- through discussions with them are not evaluating the tool they are evaluating the player's processes.  Does the player swing from a solid base?  Does the player have good hands?  Does the player stay inside the ball and through it? etc.  To be consistent with the wood bat the aforementioned are absolutes for the hitter to find a much smaller sweet spot.  Since we live in a world of "if..."  If the hitter can consistently put a quality ball in play with a wood bat it is reasonable to assume he will do the same with metal (or whatever space age material is being used).  Same with pitchers -- process, process, process.

 

I also have same situation as Freddy77, last season we played 8-10 tournaments on college campuses.  Most of those events were wood bat and my kids absolutely enjoyed them more than metal.  For most of them it forced them to be true to who they were...put a metal in their hands and they tried to do more than they were capable of.   

There were over 50 HRs hit in Jupiter last fall at the WWBA World Championship.  All HS kids using wood bats and facing the highest possible level of pitching.  We have seen HS kids hit balls out of MLB stadiums using wood bats.  As long as kids dream about playing in the Big Leagues they will want to hit with wood.

 

The events that draw the most interest from MLB scouts and college coaches are all wood bat events.  If a pitcher can throw with the flat seam MLB type ball and a hitter can hit with wood, college coaches love it.  There are some that hit well with metal, but struggle with wood.  Never seen a good hitter with wood that wasn't a good hitter with metal.

 

The biggest problem we see with wood bats is many kids are using something less than good wood.  

 

Colleges went to the flat seam ball and if it weren't for the $$$ involved they would be using wood bats.  Not talking about the cost of the bats, but the endorsement packages.

PGStaff, would you say in your experience the polished hitters are breaking far fewer bats than those who are less accomplished?  For the most part what I am seeing is the guys who don't recognize the inside pitch quick enough are getting beat and then dad has a $120 worth of kindling for the fireplace.

Wood bats break, but we see far less at the more advanced levels.  The better hitters square the ball up more often.  When that happens the bat seldom breaks.

 

In the interest of accuracy, I looked up the number of HRs at the WWBA Championship in Jupiter last year.  I was incorrect in saying over 50.  The exact number of HRs hit at that tournament was 49.

Actually if the game is going to grow it will by TV and ratings...so you will never see wood in college. The last couple of years we have seen more and more college baseball on TV - lets hope it continues - but if it is going to beyond being a nitch sport the offense needs to come back to baseball.

I do totally agree with you good wood bat hit on the screws is far superior to a BBCOR - which means to me that baseball needs to redjust. The game will not grow and expand due to the hardcore baseball person (meaning 99% of the folks on this site) it already has us fully - it needs the fringe figures and new people and they are not wood bat people.

 

Maybe and I hope the new balls are the right correction but the game needs a jolt over what we have seen the last few years.

agree on the bats break alot less at the better levels, but you need min of 3 at all times and if you are playing between 30 and 40 wood bat games a season it doesn't take much to get in pretty deep.

You can always use a Baum or other wood equivalent if breaking is an issue. 

First a disclaimer I am not in any way affiliated or compensated by any bat company so this is just an opinion.  We are 3 years into the wood bat tournament process and I have been shocked at how much people are investing in 3 to 5 bats that they take with them.  I am not talking composites or mixed wood bats but there are parents investing $100 and up for the bats.  So call me cheap but wood quality is not impossible to evaluate in a bat if it is natural or the grain is clearly visible.  Looking at grain density, grain straightness, grain spacing uniformity etc. are all able to be visually assessed. Wood hardness and ball response can be ascertained in live BP as well as bat feel, weight distribution etc.  After trying a bunch, if you are interested in a quality wood bat at a reasonable price consider Beaver bat company in New York.  We have found them to be really consistent, excellent quality and the price very reasonable. If you like the deep rich stains they do not have the look of the high end bats but for black or natural they look as good as any.  Performance rivals any bat I have seen, options of pro grade Ash, Birch and Maple, wide variety of models and if you are really not picky about the look and can handle a -1.5 consider the mult-ibat packs they have. You can get 20 Maples and 10 Ash for about the price of 4 $100 dollar bats.

Originally Posted by freddy77:

All I can say is that I coach HS kids in summer and fall wood bat leagues and almost all  of the players over the years have made it very clear that they'd much rather play in woodbat leagues than metalbat.  And that includes the smaller/weaker kids who bat .120.   Hard to believe, but it's true.

 

Why do you suppose they’d say that?

Because hitting a wood bat dead nuts is like a finely hit golf shot.  It's a rush that keeps you coming back. 

Use the composite in BP or tape and nail a broken bat for BP.

Save you wood bats for the games. If it is ash, bone the bat on a fence post or coke bottle.

The scouts can hear the special sound of wood hitting a ball and turn to notice who hit the ball.

Question: what is the common "tread" for the great hitters?

 

Bob

A few thoughts with the question.....

1.  Its the romantic part of baseball that just feels right.

2.  If the late Tony Gwynn had his kids use wood because it helped perfect their swing then who am I to do different.

3.  When a coach or scout sees a kid absolutely tattoo a ball with wood he probably perks up a little. 

I too am a big fan of wood bat leagues (American Legion here). There is beauty in the 3-2 games, seeing batters advance runners, big swings getting fly balls not check swings to the fence. Some of the composite woods (such as Demarini) are actually quite durable. Kids do gush when they "hit a seed" with wood. I actually prefer National League Ball too. I hope the new Commish doesn't make the DH MLB wide.

Even though my son used a composite wood bat (Maple/bamboo) he received a few compliments by hitting with wood during American Legion last year. 
There is still the misconception among players, parents and coaches that hitting with wood is more difficult than hitting with BBCOR.

I'm going to see if my son will have the cahonies to use his wood bat during high school games. 

Agree with the majority.  Don't have numbers to back this up but just seems sweet spot of wood produces better pop than bbcor.  And yes this IS the way the game was meant to be played.  From a pitchers perspective in youth ball it is downright scary being 50 or 55 feet away and having some 6'3" 210 lb. 14u square one up with a 1.15 bat and have it come back at your head.  Also from a youth pitching perspective it gets frustrating making great pitches only to have little johnny flip his toothpick drop 10 out there and poke it in to right center for a hit.  Then these kids get bbcor in their hands when they get to high school and they can't hit water if they fell out of a boat.  These 1.15 bats are extremely forgiving and don't force young kids to develop proper mechanics.  As for bbcor vs. Wood I think it is just a choice.  But I would still like to just see wood.

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Why do you suppose they’d say that?

Because hitting a wood bat dead nuts is like a finely hit golf shot.  It's a rush that keeps you coming back. 

 

Great analogy! Is that why there are so many golfers who use wood “woods” rather than metal ones?

Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:

…There is beauty in the 3-2 games, seeing batters advance runners, big swings getting fly balls not check swings to the fence. …

 

Then why are there so many who want more offense in the game?

 

Originally Posted by jolietboy:

Agree with the majority.  Don't have numbers to back this up but just seems sweet spot of wood produces better pop than bbcor. 

 

Why do you suppose those numbers aren’t readily available?

 

And yes this IS the way the game was meant to be played. 

 

Your implication is that all the rule changes from 1845 on have screwed the game up.

 

From a pitchers perspective in youth ball it is downright scary being 50 or 55 feet away and having some 6'3" 210 lb. 14u square one up with a 1.15 bat and have it come back at your head. 

 

Why not just make BBCOR the standard for all levels of baseball?

 

Also from a youth pitching perspective it gets frustrating making great pitches only to have little johnny flip his toothpick drop 10 out there and poke it in to right center for a hit. 

 

Your implication is that those kind of hits NEVER happen with wood.

 

Then these kids get bbcor in their hands when they get to high school and they can't hit water if they fell out of a boat. 

 

I don’t know about where you’re at, but I’ve seen quite a few HS players that tattoo the ball pretty well with BBCOR.

 

These 1.15 bats are extremely forgiving and don't force young kids to develop proper mechanics. 

 

Are hitting mechanics or having fun and learning to love the game more important at ages where 1.15 is the standard?

 

As for bbcor vs. Wood I think it is just a choice.  But I would still like to just see wood.

 

Don’t you think that if even a small majority believed the same way, metal bats would be history in less than a year?

 

 

I don't believe hitting mechanics have much if anything to do with it. in todays game the vast majority of kids that play higher levels have at least solid fundamentals.

 

As I noted at the start personally I don't even have a major objection as both of my boys are the kids that square up the barrel...I just find it to be an interesting case study on views. I just checked the summer schedule and we have 6 of 9 events as wood bat...so my opinion certainly doesn't matter!!

 

Stats the majority of will never want wood - remember the typical poster on this site is very much a hardcore fan / player. They are not reflective of the entire group, I don't mean that in a bad way what so ever! It is kind of like being the weaker player on a great team...you are still better then the average!

Stats it seems you are always looking for a lively debate.  This one is not critical enough on my list to spend a lot of time and energy putting up a fight.  But I will quickly address your thoughts.   Wood vs. Bbcor sweet spot...  don't have the time and energy to research this.  And at this point not sure I care.  As for rules changes, the bases are still 90 ft.  Somethings are ok to change and some things shouldn't.   These are opinions though so again no point debating.  I think all levels should swing wood.  That is my OPINION and will remain unchanged.  Bbcor as standard for all ages?  Better than nothing I will take it.  Ultimately I don't hate bbcor just prefer wood.  But do hate drop 10 1.15 in youth ball.  As for flipping the drop 10 to serve one to right center...  with wood a lot of kids would never catch up to the ball at all so Yes many more cheap hits with 1.15. Finally what is more important mechanics or fun at the youth level?  Depends what your desires are but who says its one or the other?  But if I had to pick one I would pick mechanics.  Thats all I have to say about that.

I like wood bats, a lot.  I believe they are more challenging to hit with than BBCOR (slightly smaller sweet spot, less forgiving when hit on the handle), but better hitters can drive the ball hard and get great satisfaction from it.  I also like that wood bats are available in differing weights (I've seen the same model vary between -4 to -0, and yes I bring my kitchen scale to weigh them).  My kid uses wood exclusively in practice/cage hitting and I think this makes him a better hitter, but uses BBCOR in games (for the reasons noted above).  If I had a vote, I'd prefer that all levels of baseball use wood, although I think that more kids would drop out at earlier ages if this happened.

 

For what it's worth, my son recently played in the PG wood bat MLK tournament in Az. For me, it was baseball in its purest form. More importantly for my son however - he squared up on several pitches with the wood bat and absolutely loved the feel. What has been mentioned above I think holds true with a lot of youths - the feeling of squaring up a pitch with a wood bat just feels different.

Originally Post by old_school:  "Why would anyone think that 3-2 ball games with no hope of a HR are going to help the game grow in any way?"

 

All things equal, apples to apples, are there fewer runs scored per team in woodbat compared to bbcor?

jolietboy , I’m not looking for anything, other than truth over conjecture.

Originally Posted by Smitty28:

I like wood bats, a lot.  … If I had a vote, I'd prefer that all levels of baseball use wood, although I think that more kids would drop out at earlier ages if this happened.

 

I like wood a lot myself, and before BBCOR I was one of those screaming to go back to wood rather than play with the rocket launchers of the time.

 

I think you’re correct that more kids would drop out earlier if wood were all there was, and to me that’s totally unacceptable. Now if every kid reached physical and mental maturity at age 8, that would be different. But my goal has always been to keep them all playing as long as possible because they change so much. If a pitcher gives up a couple extra duck farts or a few more jacks from players who shouldn’t be able to do that, so be it. It won’t be the end of the world.

Here's the thing...kids don't have to reach physical maturity at age 8 to hit with a wood bat.  I grew up (as did generations before me) with a wood bat and that's what I learned to hit with.  HRs were a very big deal, but the games were full of hitting and run scoring and tons of fun.  Back then you learned proper mechanics from the start, and the kids that didn't get it dropped out after Little League.  What's happening now is kids are learning with what's effectively a juiced youth metal bat.  Many kids are taking short cuts and just not learning how to hit, and the 13U/14U age group is cluttered with kids that are taking lessons trying to re-learn how to hit.  Are we really doing these kids any favors with this system?  I'm not so sure...

       
       
my son is one of those big kids.  When he squares one up and its a line drive at someone instead of in a gap it can be scary.  Fortunately he hasn't pegged a pitcher yet.  And when my son is on the mound and some equally big kid hits a line drive back at him...  well needless to say that could be the end of my world.  If you don't care about the duck farts how about pitcher's health?  Great move in college and high school at least going to BBCOR.  I know the threat is still very real with bbcor and even wood at the mlb level.  Something every pitcher's parent worries about.  But at 13 and 14 when you have some of these kids basically matured swinging these h It bats its like putting a weapon in their hands.  Bbcor is fine but I still prefer wood.  And by the way when I was a kid we swung wood.  Personally I think it forced kids to be even better.  And there was no shortage of ballplayers then.  True a few may drop out earlier but I highly doubt we will lose any future mickey mantles!

       
       
If there was a love button instead of a like button I would have used it for this post!

Originally Posted by Smitty28:

Here's the thing...kids don't have to reach physical maturity at age 8 to hit with a wood bat.  I grew up (as did generations before me) with a wood bat and that's what I learned to hit with.  HRs were a very big deal, but the games were full of hitting and run scoring and tons of fun.  Back then you learned proper mechanics from the start, and the kids that didn't get it dropped out after Little League.  What's happening now is kids are learning with what's effectively a juiced youth metal bat.  Many kids are taking short cuts and just not learning how to hit, and the 13U/14U age group is cluttered with kids that are taking lessons trying to re-learn how to hit.  Are we really doing these kids any favors with this system?  I'm not so sure...

 

I honestly believe you’re looking at the past with rose colored glasses. I played in the LLI in 1957 when baseball was one heck of a bigger deal than it is now, and there were a lot of kids who didn’t learn hitting good mechanics, even well after graduating from HS. It’s a process that never stops because there’s no such thing as perfection. As I said, the trick to me is keeping the pool as large as possible for as long as possible.

The principal reason that colleges will never use wood bats.The manufacturers need the colleges' endorsements since they sell metal to kids and the pros use wood. Meanwhile, "bat money" is a revenue line item in college baseball programs' budgets that they'd sorely miss.

 

It's no coincidence that "Omaha" is a significant trademark of one of the major manufacturers.

Originally Posted by jolietboy:

my son is one of those big kids.  When he squares one up and its a line drive at someone instead of in a gap it can be scary.  Fortunately he hasn't pegged a pitcher yet.  And when my son is on the mound and some equally big kid hits a line drive back at him...  well needless to say that could be the end of my world.  If you don't care about the duck farts how about pitcher's health?  Great move in college and high school at least going to BBCOR.  I know the threat is still very real with bbcor and even wood at the mlb level.  Something every pitcher's parent worries about.  But at 13 and 14 when you have some of these kids basically matured swinging these h It bats its like putting a weapon in their hands.  Bbcor is fine but I still prefer wood.  And by the way when I was a kid we swung wood.  Personally I think it forced kids to be even better.  And there was no shortage of ballplayers then.  True a few may drop out earlier but I highly doubt we will lose any future mickey mantles!

 

I’ve heard that argument for decades, and it doesn’t work any better now than it did 30 years ago. How many pitchers at every level were injured by a ball coming off a bat, and how many were from wood and how many from metal?

 

Yes, when a kid gets injured it’s tragic, but how many of those injuries are there really? I’ve watched over 150,000 pitches at the HS level over the last 15 years and never seen a pitcher have to miss his next game because of an injury from a hit ball. And a lot of those years were when the bats were truly hot, from 1999 thru the advent of BBCOR in the fall of 2010.

 

The answer is, if you’re kid’s a pitcher and you’re worried, don’t let him pitch. It’s just that simple. I made the decision to let mine pitch because when I checked, the chances of that kind of injury were insignificant to me. But, had I thought for 1 second he was in real danger, he wouldn’t have been allowed to pitch. Maybe it’s because when my kid was 13 he was in HS, so he was using a drop 5, not one of those lightweight rocket launchers.

 

If there’s really a problem, all parents have to do is vote with their pocketbooks! Quit buying those things! But noooooo. Daddy wants Junior to have the hottest bat he can find because he wants him to have every advantage possible, then holds his head in his hands worrying about how dangerous they are. L

       
       
Stats I think you may want to peak in the mirror for those rose color glasses.  If you think those kids who might give up are potential players at a higher level...  who is really kidding themselves?

Yes IMO it isn't close.

 

I don't have a problem with a 2-1 game I just don't understand the love of it. I watched a lot of college baseball last year, at least for me it was a lot, probably 4 or 5 games a week and there is something missing.

 

PG posted on here a day or 2 ago that this past fall 49 homers were hit over 50 games with wood. I have no doubt he is spot on correct with his number but then why did I watch 17 games in the CWS and see 3 or 4 homers? Maybe it was the balls? Look around on the college web sites for stats from the last couple of seasons - HR's are not part of the game in any real or meaningful way. It just hasn't been in balance the last couple of years.

 

IMO that is not good for the game.

       
       
You feeling ok today stats?  Just an FYI my son is 13 and DOES use a drop 5.  He used bbcor most of his 11 year old season.  12u alternated but has not used a drop 10 for a season since 10 years old. And he actually used a drop 7 his 9 year old season!  So we definitely practice what we preach.  He wants to swing wood this year but coaches have an issue with giving up the advantage of 1.15.  We are not sure what we will do.

The large drop bats are good for pre teens. When I played LL we used wood bats without big drop weights. When the top 12s pitched against each other the scores were 1-0 or 2-1 with each pitcher getting 12-15 K's. When I was twelve our league championship was a 1-0 game with one hit, a homer. Kids had to make LL. So their weren't any really bad players.

 

I believe kids should automatically make teams through age ten regardless of whether they have a future in the game. Imagine the weaker players who didn't make LL trying to hit with wood. But the kids have options now. If they don't succeed in baseball it's off to soccer, lacrosse, basketball, etc.. The thing is if a kid shows real interest in the game he should be talking BP with wood and finding the sweet spot. I had my son swinging -7 wood when he was ten and -3 wood when he was eleven. He was only 5', 90 when he was twelve. Having good swing mechanics isn't about size. It's about practice and work ethic.

 

I was fortunate when my son started using wood all summer (high school) he rarely broke bats. He broke maybe two a summer. I got bats wholesale for about $50. But one time he wasn't in the lineup. He was told to pinch hit late in the game. He couldn't find his bat. He grabbed a bat out of the rack. He broke a teammate's $120 bat.

 

For some reason I have etched in my mind a 14u at bat with a non BBCOR bat from several years ago. He got jammed and fisted a triple on one hop off the fence in the right field corner. When he came back to the dugout a told him with wood he would have returned to the bench with an out and a bat handle.

 

That's the key.  I used to buy wood bats from a fairly well known manufacturer when my son was a little guy.  He would swing them all winter long.  I believe they made them between 25" to 30" and 17 to 30 ounces.  He learned how to swing wood correctly.  He hasn't swung a BBCOR since the HS season ended last year and won't start until 2 weeks before the upcoming season.  I think it has dramatically reduced the likelihood of any broken wood bats.