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Wood vs Metal

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T therefump100+ posts
Oh Please, I wish the NCAA would get around to doing this and get HS to follow. We have a "few" American Legion leagues that went "wooden" and they are EXCELLENT in terms of baseball. I'm an umpire from PA and would sign any petition to get this going.

For the record, today, a HS kid hit a double off the handle of his METAL bat just above his hands. That's not baseball!
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
No offense guys but let's hold on a second and think about this all the way. I would love to go back to wood but can teams afford it?

With the economy as bad as it is and everyone making cuts do you really want to take on that type of expense?

One metal bat is around $250 - $300 and will last you all season. A wood bat costs around $40 - $50 per bat. How many wood bats would you go through in a season?

You can buy 4 metal bats for $1200 which every person on the team can use for practice and games. That is a lot of wear and tear on each bat but it will make it through the season. There is no way one wood bat would last that long. If you have a 16 person roster and you average two wood bats per kid for the season that cost will run you around $1600. I can't see high school kids averaging two bats per season.

The better kids can hit with wood and know how too but there are a lot more kids who can't and probably will never learn. Inner city schools will never be able to afford them.

The biggest problem I see is you take a sport that is already pushing away lower income kids and making it worse.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see going to wood bats but I can't see how most HS teams can afford paying for wood bats. Maybe I'm wrong in my numbers here (I teach history and math is my archnemesis) but that is what I came up with in a quick google search.
BD Baseball Dad 46100+ posts
Wood bat guy. Probably never happen --I think because metal bat companies would fight it hard. But coach has a good point about the wood breaking maybe they wood (would) make more $$ off wood. I don't believe our school supplies any bats for team kids supply the bats, 3-4 use my sons bat. Wood (would) be nice if high school did buy a couple bats though, taxes are certainly high enough Wink
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Funny thing is that everyone talks $$$ but in my experience I have seen that most kids have their own bats anyway---we supply our team the bats but with the players bringing their own as well we have a load of bats remaining at the end of the season


And we play wood from mid August until the end of October


Wood lasts
kingjamkingjam100+ posts
I cannot even beleive that $$ would be a issue as far as the parents and players are concerned IMO. Let's see.... $$ for wood bats or $$ for player's injuries, or God forbid something worse, that gets hit by a ball rocketing off a metal bat. I have always been against metal bats for the above reason, and yes you can get hurt with wood bats too, but nothing compared to metal and in more frequently. The only $$ issue here is the companies that would loose on the bottom line! Can you imagine how much better the kids would be prepared for the high level if they went from wood to wood instead of metal to wood. You might even find some diamonds in the rough that wouldn't normally be recogonized in all metal until the upper level. Wood is such and equalizer on all levels, not just hitting!
R Rock-N-Fire10+ posts
Not me, I'm all for keeping metal in high school. Most of the kids that go on to play the next level in high school go on to play college ball. That's where they can learn to hit with wood. As for the kids that get drafted out of high school already have the tools to play at the pro level. The transition for those players would "probably" come pretty easy. I'm not going to even get in to the cost of it. Coach2709 already did that.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I never had a problem with metal. It does change the game but I wouldn't say for the better. More offense draws more attention than pitching. My son had unbelievable pitching numbers in HS but everyone talked about his hitting. Economics is a big factor too. You have to look at the economics from different perspectives and the cost per bat and number of bats used. The manufacturer, the recreational programs, the high school program, the college program, travel programs and the parents of the player all see it differently. I spent lots of money on the expensive aluminum bats but I also remembering spending $120.00 on bats in one wood bat tournament and close to $500 on wood bats when my son was attending pro workouts.

As far as safety ---- The ball does exit the aluminum bat faster but the comebacker is just as dangerous from a wood bat. When my son pitched against wood I felt no sense of security knowing the batters were using wood.
Fungo
PS: I would vote for wood but have no big problem with aluminum.
T therefump100+ posts
Wow, out of the 20 some posts only 2 people talked about safety. As an umpire I have two reasons for hating metal bats:
1) Ball of the bat speed. Quote me all you want from the manufacturers about how they've throttled down the ball off the bat and my reply is Bullsh*t.

2) Getting a hit off a bat where the ball strikes the handle just above the kids hands is absurd.

2a) Batters know they can crowd the plate because they won't be penalized for an inside pitch.

Tell me how this is better for the game? If you want higher scoring games make the ball livelier.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
My reasons:

#1- Safety. Yes it comes off just as good with wood when struck on the sweet spot as it does on metal. But the problem is it gets struck on the sweet spot with metal far more often. Reaction time is minimal to start with add in the metal bat and its even more dangerous.

#2- They change the game. The pitcher gets punished for making a good pitch because the kid is swinging a metal bat. Balls that shouldnt make it out of the infield fall in. Balls that should be caught in the outfield clear the fence. The list goes on and on.

#3- The games last much longer because of metal bats. Pitchers have to throw way more pitches. All you have to do is watch a wood bat hs game vs a metal bat hs game. Two hours is about all you need.

#4- Fundementals of the game regain their importance such as: Hitting behind runners , moving runners , bunting , etc etc.

Those are my top four reasons. Its too easy to have success with metal bats and not be a very good hitter. It hinders kids development as hitters. Flaws are brought out in swings when wood is used at an earlier age.

Cost to me is a non issue. How many teams supply metal bats? And how many that do have kids that do not own their own metal bats? For 350 bucks you can own (7) 50.00 wood bats. You can find many quality wood bats for 50.00 bucks. How is that a cost issue compared to buying a 350.00 bat per year? And if you can not afford a metal bat and have to use a team bat you are not going to be able to afford a wood bat either. So the team can spend that money on wood instead of metal.

Go out and watch some HS aged kids play with wood. Before you form an opinion you need to do this imo. You will see the game is much better. The games are much quicker and crisp. I can tell you hitters learn to stop trying to pull outside pitches when they swing wood because there is instant learning and its a negative result. But metal bats allow you to do alot of things wrong and still have success as a hitter. And they dont break like wood.

I dont expect to change anyones opinion on this. But I think its important to experience the other side before you close you mind to thinking about the other side.
R Rock-N-Fire10+ posts
Kids playing baseball get severely injured, and even die. Thankfully, these incidents -- often the result of batted balls -- are as rare as they are tragic.

But politicians are trained to exploit opportunities. They are seeing one in youth sports: Ban the metal bat. Save the kids.

Here's the math: In youth baseball, almost all batted balls resulting in injury are hit with metal bats. Now subtract from the equation that metal bats are used by almost every player. You are left with the answer that the bats must be the problem.

And certainly don't discount the sincerity of advocates directly affected by an on-field tragedy.

This is still simply a bad idea, one that underplays the inherent dangers of any bat, and ignores the fiscal realities of the issue. It addresses a problem that may not even exist.

When a rare tragedy does occur with a ball struck by a metal bat, nobody calling for the ban stops to ask the basic question: Would the same thing have happened with a wood bat?

The answer, one can surmise, is yes.

"I had had some input from some people who had said these (metal bats) are dangerous," said Assemblyman David G. McDonough, R-Merrick, whose bat ban bill is in the Assembly Judiciary Committee. "Balls leave an aluminum bat at a higher speed than they do a wood bat. There is a danger to it."

First, as noted in a Times Union story last week on pros making the transition to wood bats, there's a larger surface area to make good contact with metal (aluminum for you old-schoolers) compared to wood.

Metal bats make good hitters great, and power hitters out of guys and gals who could only spray line drives with wood. Yes, the ball comes off the metal bat faster. How much faster? Some studies say up to 5 mph -- a difference between 97 and 102 mph.

Could that make a pitcher more vulnerable to getting hit by a scorched comebacker? Perhaps, but only fractionally to the point of irrelevance. This also applies to infielders, baseball or softball. (While playing shortstop in softball some years ago, I had my nose broken and eyes blackened on a bad-hop drive up the middle.)

"That 5 mph difference is one-fifth of a blink of an eye," said Ari Fleischer, a lobbyist and spokesman who represents manufacturers of both wood and metal bats. (Yes, it's the same guy who used to be the White House spokesman.)

Compared to other sports, baseball is a safe game, but line drives happen. There seems to be an equal risk with a pitcher getting pegged by a line drive off a wood bat. It's common to see a major-leaguer get hit by a ball hit back up the box.

One example: A couple of seasons ago, a line drive off the bat of Boston Red Sox Julio Lugo broke the right leg of New York Yankees pitcher Jeff Karstens. Nobody blamed the bat.

"It makes no difference," Fleischer said. "If you are going to get clocked, you are going to get clocked on a ball up the middle, wood or aluminum."

Wood also has its own dangers, from shattered bats hurtling toward other players and fans, to shards threatening catchers, umpires and even hitters.

The hard plastic flap that hangs from catcher's masks were popularized in the late 1970s by Los Angeles Dodger Steve Yeager. Yeager had been struck in the throat by a broken bat while standing in the on-deck circle, and wanted additional protection.

Even in one piece, wood can be more dangerous because tenuous grips on the handle make them more likely than metal to fly out of a batter's hands, endangering anybody in the vicinity.

"There is risk in both," McDonough said. "But the overall risk is lowered if we just start using the wood bat, just because of the velocity of the ball."

No proof is offered. The thinking stops at the ball comes off the bat slightly faster.

In the Assembly bill, the fiscal implications of a bat ban are described as "unknown at this time." Here's the short answer: Significant. Metal bats are more expensive, but last much longer than wood. Costs would eventually rise significantly. With school and non-profit budgets strained to breaking points, this bill is yet another tack-on many leagues and parents will simply be unable to afford.

"If they ban aluminum, my (bat manufacturing) clients, with the exception of Easton, which is almost all aluminum, will make money," Fleischer said.

FYI: Metal bat bans are opposed by leagues and organizations ranging from the NCAA to Little League.

But they make for good politics.

A final thought: Let's say a metal bat ban does go through, in New York state and elsewhere. What will politicians then do when the next one-in-a-million tragedy occurs, this time involving a wood bat?

Hey, they killed off Lawn Darts. Just saying.

As for teams furnishing metal bats, I know of none down here in Tampa. Metal bats last longer then 1 year and the more unfortunate people can't afford all the wooden bats needed throughout the year also. You mention just 7 bats at $50 a pop, that's for for kids that are still learning to swing the bat, I would double that number for a 30 game season, maybe even triple it if you count practice throughout the season. Then that doesn't count summer ball. Where would it end? An I've seen games and even coached games under the two, while I'll admit that it does take the true meaning of a hit somewhat but it doesn't do it to the point of the cost that it would be too maintain the change. Truly there are not that many "fisters" that become a hit in high school.
Last edited by Rock-N-Fire
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
rock-n-fire

I truly admire how you twist things---all kids in LL that have fatal injuires are the result of metal bats--- so true BUT only because all they use are metal bats

For me the reason to go to wood bats is not safety--it is all about getting baseball back to where it should be--the pure game
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I stated my case. I stand by it from years of experience. I played with wood in hs. I coach metal bat HS and coach both metal and wood in the summer and fall.

I dont know a single player in our program that goes through more than three or four wood bats in a summer and fall and thats a lot of games for us.

The BESR is very close for metal and wood as I stated. But you left out the most important detail. It is a fact that it is much harder to square it up with wood than it is metal. Much harder. There are WAY more top end velo shots coming off of metal bats in a metal bat game than there are in a wood bat game. If you dispute that I will have to laugh at you. I have seen entire wood bat games with very high level players playing where I did not see one single smoked ball off a wood bat.

Throw a round of BP to a hs team with wood. Then throw a round of BP with metal. If you have ever done this then you know the answer. Its not even close.

The reason many parents are against metal bats has nothing to do with cost. It has nothing to do with safety. They know that their kid is not going to have the same level of success with metal they have with wood. And they just dont like that idea. Sad but true.
R Rock-N-Fire10+ posts
For kids graduating high school around my time, there was a big difference awaiting them at the college level. In 2000, new rules prohibited teams from using bats with a 5-unit length-to-weight ratio, changing bats to a 3-unit differential.

While you might not think that this would make a difference, it certainly has. In 1998, Division I teams averaged about one home run per game; in the middle of 2005, teams were averaging fewer than 0.70 round-trippers per contest.

The college baseball game has changed as offensive numbers have dropped. Teams have begun to rely more on bunting, hit-and-running and stealing bases. Small ball has come back with a fury, something college teams in the late 1990s didn't know much about.

In college, I had the opportunity to play in a couple of wood bat summer leagues, and truly enjoyed that experience. In all of my other games, I always used aluminum bats, which made me feel good when I was hitting, and less than stellar when I was toeing the rubber.

When I was pitching, I used to get frustrated when I'd beat a guy inside and he'd fist the ball off the handle, stealing a base hit because his bat was metal. With wood, those jam jobs would signal a broken bat, and nothing more than a flair to an infielder. As a hitter, I loved grabbing some extra hits because of the aluminum bat, I had no complaints with a bloop single once in a while.

Traditionalists will argue that Abner Doubleday didn't intend for baseball to be played with aluminum bats. In Little League, I always wanted to use a wood bat because I thought it would make me seem more professional. We used aluminum bats for a couple of reasons, one of which was safety. Coaches and parents didn't want a broken bat flying out and striking their child in the field. I think this is quite understandable.
Mike FMike F100+ posts
No offense but there is a HUGE safety difference between metal & wood because metal bats are engineered to have more weight in the handle. Since the bat head is considerably lighter, more players can swing metal bats faster and with better control than they can swing wood. The result is more balls are centered more often and hit harder by many more players simply by using a bat that's easier to swing (to Coach May's point).

If you don't believe that, pick up a metal and wood bat that are the same weight and find the balance point of each by balancing them on your fingers. You will see that the wood bat has a balance point close to the bat head and the metal bat has a balance point 2-4 inches closer to the handle.

Or, you could take 2 identical wood bats (same length & weight). Both would feel about the same when you swing them. Now if you were to wrap 2 ounces of lead tape at the head of one and 2 ounces of lead tape on the handle of the other, you will still have 2 bats of the same length & weight, but one is now considerably harder to swing than the other.

The difference between metal and wood is not minimal. Whether you like small ball or you prefer to see 20 runs per game is a matter of taste and/or opinion. You like what you like and that's every person's right. But there is increased danger with metal bats and I think that is indisputable.
Last edited by Mike F
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mydixiewrecked:
that would be a bad idea going to wood in high school.
im a pitcher and a hitter that believes if the ball is coming at you too hard, then let someone else play thats not scared of a ball.


Welcome to the HSBBW mydixiewrecked. I'm not hearing any players crying about the ball coming off of the bat. It's mostly parents and coaches, and baseball fans that can't stand the ping. It's not the way the game is played at the highest level, and not the way it should be played in HS.

I could use your same logic and say, if you can't hit with wood then step aside and let a real hitter take a hack. If wood is good enough for the pros, it's good enough for the kids. We don't need to mollycoddle young hitters anymore.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
I agree with everyone above that we need to go back to wood bats for safety and purity of the game and all the other reasons. I love watching and coaching wood bats games.

BUT - I still don't think it would happen because of the costs. I wish I was smart enough to do a study of how changing bats from metal to wood would impact schools financially. For every team like Coach May's who know how to hit with wood and not go through that many bats there are many who don't have a clue. They will be the ones who cannot afford to go to wood bats. How many inner city schools or very poor rural schools who save up money to get a metal bat to last several seasons will be able to buy wood bats every year?

My argument is for high schools and not travel, showcase, AAU or whatever because you are talking about a different level of financial ability on the average. IMO most schools struggle to pay for baseball as is and even the perception of buying more wood bats for about the same cost of a metal bat will make administrators balk at buying wood.

I'm all in favor of using wood but I can't see it financially for high schools. I probably won't convince many of you of this but oh well - that's what I believe.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by therefump:
Wow, out of the 20 some posts only 2 people talked about safety. As an umpire I have two reasons for hating metal bats:

...



Since you're an umpire, I feel I have the moral obligation to scream "you don't know what you're talking about" at the back of your head.

HOWEVER, I do agree with your points 2) and ...errr... 2a). The game is much better with wooden bats for several reasons. Anyone who hasn't had the chance to catch a HS-level wood bat tournament really should go watch one. They're absolutely a blast, for all the reasons mentioned above.

I don't buy the safety thing, though - if safety were really the priority we all pretend it to be, there would be no pitching, HS football, driving, Proms, summer lawn mowing jobs, etc...those things ARE dangerous.

I think the cost thing is also a non-issue. Whatever the cost, we'll all figure it out. Rich, broke, in debt, whatever - we'll complain about it, then make an adjustment and then sign the check.
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
Let's see, the Ford Motor Company years ago built a car called the Pinto, which had a nasty little exploding gas tank issue. Ford calculated roughly how much they'd spent on litigation and decided it was cheaper to pay for litigation and damages than to redesign. When juries got their hands on documents showing that Ford knew people would get hurt, and even killed, but calculated the company would be better off financially to keep producing the problematic car, paying $$$ for the dead and injured, Ford got financially buried by some punitive damage awards.

I don't see a huge difference in what the metal bat companies are doing, with the NCAA helping by turning a blind eye. The testing methods and standards are clearly designed to help the bat manufacturers pass the BESR test. No question about that. None.

Sooner or later, and unfortunately it will be sooner, another pitcher will die, some young man's estate will take on the bat companies and the NCAA, and when it costs them more to pay for injuries from metal bats, then and only then will we see a change.

It's all about the money. John Grisham could do a great novel on this one.
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Rock-N-Fire:
Kids playing baseball get severely injured, and even die. Thankfully, these incidents -- often the result of batted balls -- are as rare as they are tragic.

But politicians are trained to exploit opportunities. They are seeing one in youth sports: Ban the metal bat. Save the kids.

Here's the math: In youth baseball, almost all batted balls resulting in injury are hit with metal bats. Now subtract from the equation that metal bats are used by almost every player. You are left with the answer that the bats must be the problem.

And certainly don't discount the sincerity of advocates directly affected by an on-field tragedy.

This is still simply a bad idea, one that underplays the inherent dangers of any bat, and ignores the fiscal realities of the issue. It addresses a problem that may not even exist.

When a rare tragedy does occur with a ball struck by a metal bat, nobody calling for the ban stops to ask the basic question: Would the same thing have happened with a wood bat?

The answer, one can surmise, is yes.

"I had had some input from some people who had said these (metal bats) are dangerous," said Assemblyman David G. McDonough, R-Merrick, whose bat ban bill is in the Assembly Judiciary Committee. "Balls leave an aluminum bat at a higher speed than they do a wood bat. There is a danger to it."

First, as noted in a Times Union story last week on pros making the transition to wood bats, there's a larger surface area to make good contact with metal (aluminum for you old-schoolers) compared to wood.

Metal bats make good hitters great, and power hitters out of guys and gals who could only spray line drives with wood. Yes, the ball comes off the metal bat faster. How much faster? Some studies say up to 5 mph -- a difference between 97 and 102 mph.

Could that make a pitcher more vulnerable to getting hit by a scorched comebacker? Perhaps, but only fractionally to the point of irrelevance. This also applies to infielders, baseball or softball. (While playing shortstop in softball some years ago, I had my nose broken and eyes blackened on a bad-hop drive up the middle.)

"That 5 mph difference is one-fifth of a blink of an eye," said Ari Fleischer, a lobbyist and spokesman who represents manufacturers of both wood and metal bats. (Yes, it's the same guy who used to be the White House spokesman.)

Compared to other sports, baseball is a safe game, but line drives happen. There seems to be an equal risk with a pitcher getting pegged by a line drive off a wood bat. It's common to see a major-leaguer get hit by a ball hit back up the box.

One example: A couple of seasons ago, a line drive off the bat of Boston Red Sox Julio Lugo broke the right leg of New York Yankees pitcher Jeff Karstens. Nobody blamed the bat.

"It makes no difference," Fleischer said. "If you are going to get clocked, you are going to get clocked on a ball up the middle, wood or aluminum."

Wood also has its own dangers, from shattered bats hurtling toward other players and fans, to shards threatening catchers, umpires and even hitters.

The hard plastic flap that hangs from catcher's masks were popularized in the late 1970s by Los Angeles Dodger Steve Yeager. Yeager had been struck in the throat by a broken bat while standing in the on-deck circle, and wanted additional protection.

Even in one piece, wood can be more dangerous because tenuous grips on the handle make them more likely than metal to fly out of a batter's hands, endangering anybody in the vicinity.

"There is risk in both," McDonough said. "But the overall risk is lowered if we just start using the wood bat, just because of the velocity of the ball."

No proof is offered. The thinking stops at the ball comes off the bat slightly faster.

In the Assembly bill, the fiscal implications of a bat ban are described as "unknown at this time." Here's the short answer: Significant. Metal bats are more expensive, but last much longer than wood. Costs would eventually rise significantly. With school and non-profit budgets strained to breaking points, this bill is yet another tack-on many leagues and parents will simply be unable to afford.

"If they ban aluminum, my (bat manufacturing) clients, with the exception of Easton, which is almost all aluminum, will make money," Fleischer said.

FYI: Metal bat bans are opposed by leagues and organizations ranging from the NCAA to Little League.

But they make for good politics.

A final thought: Let's say a metal bat ban does go through, in New York state and elsewhere. What will politicians then do when the next one-in-a-million tragedy occurs, this time involving a wood bat?

Hey, they killed off Lawn Darts. Just saying.

As for teams furnishing metal bats, I know of none down here in Tampa. Metal bats last longer then 1 year and the more unfortunate people can't afford all the wooden bats needed throughout the year also. You mention just 7 bats at $50 a pop, that's for for kids that are still learning to swing the bat, I would double that number for a 30 game season, maybe even triple it if you count practice throughout the season. Then that doesn't count summer ball. Where would it end? An I've seen games and even coached games under the two, while I'll admit that it does take the true meaning of a hit somewhat but it doesn't do it to the point of the cost that it would be too maintain the change. Truly there are not that many "fisters" that become a hit in high school.


Nice piece of writing there rock-n-fire. Yours? Or did you just forget to attribute it to the author? Maybe you forgot twice?
Last edited by spizzlepop
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