Worst scoring rule in all of sports

Who gets the win? Ryan Dempter deserved to get the win too.

Welcome to baseball! Sometimes a weak bloopers is counted as a hit and a 350 foot rocket line drive is an out because it is right at someone. While stats are important to this game, they obviously tell only a portion of the story of a game.

Big difference between good luck/bad luck and pure nonsense. Taking yesterday's game as a prime example, Starter (Verlander) goes 8 full innings allowing 0 runs and 2 hits. Closer (Valverde) comes in and allows 2 runs on 3 hits blowing Verlander's lead sending the game tied to the bottom of the 9th...at which time Detroit pushes one across for the victory. Now, how can anyone possibly justify giving Valverde the win for his one inning of "work" and blowing a lead?

He was the pitcher of record when they scored the winning run.

agreed Dazed63

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"...you can't adjust stats just because it feels right."

You mean like my belt after a sumptuous Holiday dinner?



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quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
I understand where Bravescoach is coming from, however, you can't adjust stats just because it feels right.

I'm sure you're just blowing off steam...or secretly, you are Justin Verlander's mom!

Good one, papi, though I'm neither. I don't play fantasy baseball nor do I have a dog in this particular fight. I simply used the Verlander situation as just one example of how screwed up that scoring rule is. I also understand that Valverde was the pitcher of record and why he was credited with the win under the current scoring system.

What I'm getting at is how in the world has that system not been modified in order to account for situations such as this? It makes absolutely no sense for a closer to be rewarded with a win after a blown save. In this particular case, and comparatively speaking, Valverde did absolutely nothing to earn the win whereas Verlander did. It's not that it "feels right" but is an undeniable fact. At the very least, the official scorer should have the discretion to award the win to the pitcher who actually deserves it under these specific circumstances.

Stats aren't stats if the condition of attribute is arbitrary.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Stats aren't stats if the condition of attribute is arbitrary.

Nothing arbitrary about the condition of attribute I proposed...being that a closer should not be entitled to a win following a blown save. However, should you still consider that arbitrary in nature, what makes that any different than an official scorer using his professional judgment, expertise, and granted power in awarding base hits and errors?

Or Valverde comes in and the tigers make 4 errors (none by Valerde). Why should he get the blown save?

quote:

Originally posted by Bravescoach:

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Stats aren't stats if the condition of attribute is arbitrary.

Nothing arbitrary about the condition of attribute I proposed...being that a closer should not be entitled to a win following a blown save. However, should you still consider that arbitrary in nature, what makes that any different than an official scorer using his professional judgment, expertise, and granted power in awarding base hits and errors?

The arbitrary portion is granting the scorer the discretion without parameter.

In the situation of an error, it isn't arbitrary because parameters are set forth. An error is a failure to make a routine play. Just because judgement is used, doesn't make the decision arbitrary because the same judgement is applied to every play equally.

"discretion to award the win to the pitcher who actually deserves it under these specific circumstances." is the definition of arbitrary.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Okay, so let's say Verlander pitches 8 strong and leaves with the lead. Then Valverde let's the opponent tie the game in the 9th.

A new reliever comes in and pitches 8 scoreless extra innings until the Tigers score one to win.

Who gets the win? Verlander or the second 8-inning pitcher?

Good question, papi. In that case, I would still give the win to Verlander as he left the game with the lead which is all he could control at that point.

quote:

Originally posted by jack sebesta:
Or Valverde comes in and the tigers make 4 errors (none by Valerde). Why should he get the blown save?

Nother good point, Jack. I would agree that the "blown save" statistic not be applied when the tying run(s) is/are unearned.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by Bravescoach:

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Stats aren't stats if the condition of attribute is arbitrary.

Nothing arbitrary about the condition of attribute I proposed...being that a closer should not be entitled to a win following a blown save. However, should you still consider that arbitrary in nature, what makes that any different than an official scorer using his professional judgment, expertise, and granted power in awarding base hits and errors?

The arbitrary portion is granting the scorer the discretion without parameter.

In the situation of an error, it isn't arbitrary because parameters are set forth. An error is a failure to make a routine play. Just because judgement is used, doesn't make the decision arbitrary because the same judgement is applied to every play equally.

"discretion to award the win to the pitcher who actually deserves it under these specific circumstances." is the definition of arbitrary.

I hear you, CPLZ, but I would argue those very same parameters which you speak of could very easily be put in place to avoid the inequity of the situation at hand. Further, the "ordinary effort" standard applied to fielding situations is often up to debate and ultimately up to the official scorer to determine.

Symantics aside, it's pretty clear-cut to me...should a starting pitcher go 8-full and leave with the lead (maybe incorporate "quality start" standards), he is entitled to the "W" regardless of how/when his team ultimately wins the game. I see nothing arbitrary about that what with those certain parameters in place.

See I like the pitcher of record rule. Makes perfect sense to me. What I hate is the NFL rule when a running back takes a screen pass behind the line of scrimmage and runs it 80 yards and breaks 5 tackles and the yardage goes on the QB's passing yards. That has never made sense to me.

I agree ripcord51, that football rule is so strange.

I also agree with biggerpapi, as the father of a HS pitcher.

Man those are hard to watch.