Would Joe Morgan get overlooked today?

I dont think so

Even more so, would Nellie Fox? Highly likely, IMHO...

I don't think players of that quality get "overlooked" but I think there are scouts and organizations who would find reasons to rationalize why he would not/cannot succeed.
Jimmy Rollins and Rafael Furcal are somewhat similar to Morgan and justify the conclusion that he would be highly rated by some and not so by others. Even in his time, the Astros showed they liked the things Lee May had to offer more than those of Morgan by trading them, straight up, if I recall.

Actually, the Astros gave up far more in terms of quantity than the Reds. As I recall:

The Reds gave up: Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart (VERY unpopular trade at the time in Cincinnati)

The Astros gave up: Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo, Dennis Menke, Jack Billingham and Ed Armbrister

Lee May was coming off a 40 HR season. Most Reds fans thought the Reds were nuts. Joe Morgan is the single biggest reason IMO the Reds won back-to-back WS in '75 and '76. HE was the missing piece.

Now that is very good knowledge!!!

From the limited view that I have, it seems to me that baseball at the professional level is a "power" game. That is what excites organizations,scouts and gets the ESPN replays. But I also think that if you can play at a very high level and be able to hit .300, there is a place for you. bbscout posted about Bill Mueller as an example. Mark Ellis with the A's might be another. That is the great thing about baseball. IMO, childhood heroes such as Nellie Fox and Pee Wee Reese would play today but I, for one, think there would be less organizations willing to provide opportunities.

I respectfully disagree with TR, who admittedly has forgotten more baseball than I'll ever know, but only based on having watched kids in camps and showcases for the past 5 years with my two sons participating. Especially in the showcase setting, with so many players out there, standing out is tough.

A Joe Morgan or a Brooks Robinson, both with only "normal" speed in the 60 and a "normal arm", taking 5 balls in infield practice and hitting 8 balls in BP, just may not show enough to get a second look. Kids come to be seen, scouts don't go out looking for them, unless they're alerted somehow. If Brooks or Joe went to a PG Showcase, as highly regarded as a showcase can get, and did the norm, would they stand out enough to rate highly? Would any scout go see them play 5-6 times and truly see that incredible hustle and work ethic?


I think Brooks and Joe would need a dose of good fortune and timing to get the same opportunities, but I suspect there have been countless potential stars that just didn't get the right break at the right time.

Remember Dwight Clark, he of "The Catch" with Joe Montana and the 49ers? He was absolutely not a pro prospect but the 49ers went to Clemson to look at a QB and Clark happened to be catching the QB that day, and made an impression. He never had any speed, not a ton of quickness, but he had great hands, he got drafted, and the rest is history.

Would Joe Morgan (out of not-so-wealthy Oakland, CA) been able to even afford to go to a showcase? Or play on a select travel team? Would the scouts find Joe and Frank Robinson and Curt Flood and Vada Pinson in downtown Oakland? Do they still go into the inner cities and look?

Not a criticism...I just don't know anymore.

If someone was to get overlooked these days it is more than likely to be a small guy rather than a big guy. But talent overlooked early on usually ends up appearing sooner or later.

That is one of the great thing about college baseball (besides the obvious education). It gives players a chance to show what they can do against top competition. A smaller type RHP might not create a lot of draft interest out of high school, but if he's real successful in college he will likely get his chance.ie. Shane Komine.

Truth is... Small players do tend to play second fiddle in the draft, especially those out of high school. Often those drafted are drafted lower than their ability would dictate. But once they are playing in pro ball, the size thing isn't going to keep them out of the Big Leagues. Performance will be the biggest factor.

Joe Morgan had tools, he could run like a deer and he could hit. He was good at the other things too. It's hard to overlook his kind of tools.

Rickie Weeks younger brother Jemile is very small, but he was drafted in the 8th rd. To me, he is a "much" better player than an eighth rounder. Would he have been a first rounder if he was 6-3/185? Maybe!!! Will he play in the Big Leagues someday? I think so!!!

quote:

Would any scout go see them play 5-6 times and truly see that incredible hustle and work ethic?

Hokieone, I can assure you there are scouts who will do that. The scout from the B'jays who signed my son came to see him well over 10 times. Came to practices and stayed the entire practice and met with him afterwards. Came and watched entire games and met with him after. We thought he might not have had anything else to do! We were gratified to learn he did when 3 of the first 6 picks by the Jays came from his scouting.

PGStaff - How would you rate Joe Morgan's speed? Was he ever timed in a 60? Do you know what he ran?

Obviously he was fast, but I ask because I remember him being so focused on reading a pitcher's move and learning the little things that told him the pitcher was going to the plate. I remember him saying that he liked to see a pitcher a few times before becoming comfortable stealing a base off him.

I know that is all standard stuff for a great base-stealer, but how much was his read/intuition and how much was raw speed?

BTW, I had the pleasure of watching Justin Upton play on the USA Jr. National Team last summer and his turn around 2nd base when going from 1st to 3rd was absolutely explosive...best I've seen in a while. It almost seemed as if he never touched the ground making that turn.

I heard something recently that made me laugh out loud. Marcus Giles said in an interview that he HATES SCOUTS!!

Infielddad brought up Jimmy Rollins as an example, and it is a great example. Jimmy is about 5'8" if he has lifts in his shoes. He is also one of only three players that I brought to the Area Code Games twice.As a Soph and then again as a Junior. He was that good and after his senior year he was drafted in the second round.Joe Morgan would not be overlooked.

Justbaseball,

I don't know what Joe Morgan ran the 60 in. I've never heard a 60 time on him. I would guess 6.5 or better, but would just be guessing. Maybe "bbscout" knows?

I only know that speed and the bat were his best tools as a young player. He was very young and very small when he started. Later on he developed power and that made him a 5 tool type guy. In his early years he hit more triples than home runs, another sign of pure running speed.

Remember Jimmy Wynn, I believe they called him "toy cannon". Another small player who was on the same Astro teams with Morgan. He also had big tools including power, speed and a great arm.

I would imagine Morgan was a 65-70 or better runner. I'm only guessing though. He was a 75-80 base runner based on results.

I keep seeing people mentioning names like Maury Wills as players who didn't run that fast in the 60, but I've never seen the actual times. I just find it impossible to believe an average runner can steal over 100 bases in one year in the major leagues.

Instincts and smarts are most important, but they don't get it done at the top without flat out running speed. It is also true that flat out running speed by itself is not enough either.

Usually those who steal the most bases are middle infielders and outfielders who can really run. Podsednik and Crawford might steal the most these days. They are two of the fastest runners in the league. We have timed Crawford at PG events while in high school in the 6.3s. We've heard he's run 6.2s.

quote:

Originally posted by Callaway:
I heard something recently that made me laugh out loud. Marcus Giles said in an interview that he HATES SCOUTS!!

Ross, If it wasn't for a scout signing Giles, he would be back in So. Cal packing groceries.

bbscout,

Marcus should also be happy that there were more than 50 rounds when he was drafted.

He was one that you could say was under rated. Then again, he is proof that a 5-8 player drafted in the 53rd rd can make it, if given the chance.

I agree that he should be very thankful of that scout giving him the chance. Every other club passed on him 53 times. Then one guy gave him the opportunity that has made him wealthy. He should rethink that comment.

He said it jokingly, but he also said that he wouldn't have been given any chance if not for his brother.

Doug, he may be 5'8" on his tippy toes. He wouldn't be able to reach the checkout counter.

I'll say this about Giles, when I want my son to swing hard, I tell him to "Swing like Giles!" Giles squeezes every possible ounce of torque and energy out of that little frame.

PGStaff & bbscout - Thanks for your thoughts on Little Joe. I was hoping both of you would chime in on this.

I met Joe Morgan in an airport several years ago and he was as gracious and nice as could be. As a kid/teenager growing up in Cincinnati, there were a lot of us kids using the "wing flap" while standing in the box waiting for the pitch. Joe Morgan, along with my dad and mom, helped me to LOVE baseball more than anyone else!

There is a shortstop in St. Louis and a 2nd Baseman in Atlanta that might disagree.

I think it's interesting how the value of speed and quickness ebb and flow with time. Take football for example. In the sixties and seventies running backs were coveted for their power. relative to today the ratio of small players...Very, very few smallish 5"9 types even got a sniff. Who played... Franco harris, Csonka, etc.

Today the all-time rusher and second are both, in reality about 5'8/9 Emitt Smith and 5'9/10 Walter Payton.

In baseball with the stricter steroid policy the smaller faster player, who was understandably pushed aside, will emerge a little more frequently. As far as I know you can't juice up speed and it will make a slight comeback in baseball. Slide steps and 95 mph to the plates were not as prevalent in Joe Morgan's era. The game has evolved and players are bigger and stronger and I think more skilled across the board than "back in the day."

Scouts from my observation seem less interested with what you do than what you might do. They'll take a flyer on a big frame 10 times faster than on a polished small player. I think they believe they can maximize they're potential to be more than the polished small player. Since they seem to draft about 80/20 on potential we'll never know what great small players were overlooked. I think the small position player is better off than the small pitcher. I'm not sure modern scouting is not too reliant on the radar gun. Say what you want about power pitching and I'll say that give me command of multiple pitches and a feel for pitching and ability to change speeds and I'll take that over power pitching all day. Ofcourse power with command and offspeed is devestating and the best...look at the kid from the twins.

I watch my son's scout team traipse around to colleges each weekend and most of the scouts congregate and pull out the gun get two pitches at 82 and put it away and begin to shoot the bull. Some of these kids have multiple pitches and command but no speed and whip means no scholarship. How fast did Maddux throw out of HS? My son is not a pitcher!

Confession/venting is good for the soul! I feel better already.

Matt bush was 5' 10 -5' 11 and 170 ilbs when he was selected overall #1 pick. Granted he took a Padre discount but he was going in the first round as well. If you have talent they will find you. Upton Brothers as well.

Hokie

Let me give you a recent example of why I say he would not be overlooked

We had a young man at our Binghamton Showcase who stands 5-6 and weighs 140---all he did was light up the stadium with his line drives and daring base running--he had everyone coachs and parents talking about him

He is now on our fall team and in a recent tournament showed why he belonged--he played second, short and LF for us and in athe semifinal game with 2 out and a man on second in the ninth inning he saved the game by throwing out the runner at home after the batter singled to left and the play wasnt even close
Yes "little guys" can force your hand when they have talent and show it---there was no way this young man wasn't going to play for us-- we expect him to be our utility guy and sparkplug every weekend

On top of it all he has excellent grades--he will play in college and that is for sure--it may not be Division I but he will play somewhere

My son is only 5'7" and is being recruited by several big D1 schools. He got noticed because of his talent, work ethic and passion for the game. He never stops and gives it a 100% for the whole game. These things really get noticed no matter what the size. These attributes do, however, show up better in game situations than in showcases.

If the visit goes as expected, he will commit to a school in less than two weeks. What more could you ask for?

mrmom - I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that Greg Maddux was in the low 90s when he got to the big leagues. PGStaff or bbscout may know better.

Hitting from the wrong side or both sides helps small players alot. If you bat righty, then turn around.

Agree that a talent on the level of Joe Morgan wouldn't be overlooked today. The great players don't get overlooked. It is the marginal player (an extremely talented player compared with the general population even so) with the potential to become a fringe major leaguerat best who is likely to be overlooked due to size.

Smaller players may have to work harder to prove themselves and have even more desire than the big players but if they have the talent and are willing to persist they'll get a shot.

Scouting is an art and while scouts make some mistakes they do a pretty amazing job considering how big a gap there is between a kid coming out of HS and a major league player in a sport where skill and makeup play just as big a role as talent.