Last October I posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
This video was shot in January of this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
Thanks in advance.
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I will say he looks much improved though, so good job, can tell he put in some hard work.
He's got good movement on his pitches with much improvement in mechanics. And all his deliveries look consistent. But he has a bit of a rush motion and is a little off balanced on the follow through. The only thing I see is the front knee on his lift doesn't pass his belt line. That's something experimental that I've been working on with my pitchers this year and has really helped with stride length, balance, extension and explosiveness.
gunner34 posted:I will say he looks much improved though, so good job, can tell he put in some hard work.
Thank you, I appreciate it
hsbaseball101 posted:He's got good movement on his pitches with much improvement in mechanics. And all his deliveries look consistent. But he has a bit of a rush motion and is a little off balanced on the follow through. The only thing I see is the front knee on his lift doesn't pass his belt line. That's something experimental that I've been working on with my pitchers this year and has really helped with stride length, balance, extension and explosiveness.
Interesting comment about the rush motion. Do you mean not pausing, as in potential to balk? Because we have spoken about that a few times this past summer. He wants to get the ball and go, works quickly, sometimes too quickly.
mstonge posted:hsbaseball101 posted:He's got good movement on his pitches with much improvement in mechanics. And all his deliveries look consistent. But he has a bit of a rush motion and is a little off balanced on the follow through. The only thing I see is the front knee on his lift doesn't pass his belt line. That's something experimental that I've been working on with my pitchers this year and has really helped with stride length, balance, extension and explosiveness.
Interesting comment about the rush motion. Do you mean not pausing, as in potential to balk? Because we have spoken about that a few times this past summer. He wants to get the ball and go, works quickly, sometimes too quickly.
Yes he looks like a momentum pitcher, which isn't a bad thing as I am a former study of Dick Mills (RIP).
I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Truman posted:I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Truman. I think I get what you mean. Let me see if I can attach a pic
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mstonge posted:Truman posted:I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Truman. I think I get what you mean. Let me see if I can attach a pic
Can't tell just at what point the pro pitcher is in his motion. So, to better illustrate what I mean, let me try this . . .
Take a look at Verlander below and stop it at 0:09 and note the rotation at how much of his backside is towards the batter.
And here's one of Bumgarner. Stop at 0:17
It's that kind of rotation I was looking for and suggesting that comes before starting the stride. It tend to add more acceleration to the kinetic chain than not having that rotation.
PS: It's something that most high schoolers don't do.
Truman posted:mstonge posted:Truman posted:I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Truman. I think I get what you mean. Let me see if I can attach a pic
Can't tell just at what point the pro pitcher is in his motion. So, to better illustrate what I mean, let me try this . . .
Take a look at Verlander below and stop it at 0:09 and note the rotation at how much of his backside is towards the batter.
And here's one of Bumgarner. Stop at 0:17
It's that kind of rotation I was looking for and suggesting that comes before starting the stride. It tend to add more acceleration to the kinetic chain than not having that rotation.
PS: It's something that most high schoolers don't do.
Got it. You definitely see more of the back of their jerseys, not just a side profile. I'll see if I can shoot my son from that angle to get a better look. Thanks!
I'm going to add that I used to worry about that rotation with my son. He does the same as yours. Some call it hurdling. Most coaches want to see that early hip load. I tried my best to change this with my son and at times got what I wanted only to have him revert. Here's the conclusion I finally came to: THAT EARLY HIP LOAD EVERYONE TEACHES IS COMPLETE NONSENSE. It does not add to velocity. In fact, a fairly recent ASMI study measured hip rotation in pitchers and found that it was inconsequential in regards to velocity. If you think about it from a physics point of view, this makes sense. Hip rotation is momentum that is directed away from the plate. It provides no momentum velocity. After having dealt with this with a lot of pitchers and then having it show no increased velocity, I have stopped trying to teach it. I feel it was a waste of my time. The only important benchmark is that you reach maximum hip/shoulder separation at footstrike. It doesn't matter, IMO, how you achieve this positioning. An early opening hip - like your son and mine - is no less advantageous than a late, violent, quick rotation. The torque created is identical. This is my best analogy. Think about shooting a rubber band across the room. In one instance, I pull it quickly back to 12" and let go. In another, I pull it back slowly 12" and let go. Both will travel the same distance with the same velocity. How quickly I build and release the tension is inconsequential; it only matters that I develop the tension.
Now, having said that, I have found two reasons to teach it. In some instances, I have found that some of my pitchers can't open up early and hold back their shoulders. This requires that they hold the tension for a longer time. For them, it is easier to achieve separation if they do it the traditional way. Second, I have had coaches during the recruiting process look at his videos and mention it. They think it is important, so I can only guess that when they get ahold of my son they will try to change his mechanics on this point anyway, so I have considered taking the time next off season to change it.
mstonge posted:Truman posted:I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Truman. I think I get what you mean. Let me see if I can attach a pic
(i'm referring to the side by side pic) Kid is falling forward, nothing has broke yet (neither hands nor back knee). He will need to rush to get everything into place, which requires incredible timing and is hard to repeat. I'd like to see a pic of when he plants his left leg. When your late, you jump off the rubber, stride farther than necessary and do not get on top of the ball. You give up both velocity and movement.
I'm assuming the kid has started his motion, if not, he is never getting to a balanced starting position.
But my degree is in accounting, so take for what it's worth.
Go44dad posted:mstonge posted:Truman posted:I too see some good improvements in his mechanics. Also agree with the bit of "rush motion"; in a game environment, it could contribute to inconsistency. But that's really somewhat of a minor detail. Can't quite tell from the camera angle, but it looks like he's not getting as much rotation with the hips on the wind up as I like to see. If he can get that rotation and maintain the mechanics he's got I think he's gain some nice velocity and keep the command he's got. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Truman. I think I get what you mean. Let me see if I can attach a pic
(i'm referring to the side by side pic) Kid is falling forward, nothing has broke yet (neither hands nor back knee). He will need to rush to get everything into place, which requires incredible timing and is hard to repeat. I'd like to see a pic of when he plants his left leg. When your late, you jump off the rubber, stride farther than necessary and do not get on top of the ball. You give up both velocity and movement.
I'm assuming the kid has started his motion, if not, he is never getting to a balanced starting position.
But my degree is in accounting, so take for what it's worth.
Hmmmm??? Sounds like we have a difference of opinion here. IMHO, "falling forward" is a good thing and doesn't necessarily lead to "rushing to get everything into place." But yes, it all does require the right timing. Those who develop the timing are the one that find the consistency in their pitching. Also, "jumping off the rubber" and getting a long stride is also good. Velocity and movement all come when one gets the timing right on all the moving parts. 
See Tim Lincecum here: Tim Lincecum Pitching Mechanics
Ok, yes . . . he's a little extreme, but I feel is shows what I mean. 
roothog66 posted:I'm going to add that I used to worry about that rotation with my son. He does the same as yours. Some call it hurdling. Most coaches want to see that early hip load. I tried my best to change this with my son and at times got what I wanted only to have him revert. Here's the conclusion I finally came to: THAT EARLY HIP LOAD EVERYONE TEACHES IS COMPLETE NONSENSE. It does not add to velocity. In fact, a fairly recent ASMI study measured hip rotation in pitchers and found that it was inconsequential in regards to velocity. If you think about it from a physics point of view, this makes sense. Hip rotation is momentum that is directed away from the plate. It provides no momentum velocity. After having dealt with this with a lot of pitchers and then having it show no increased velocity, I have stopped trying to teach it. I feel it was a waste of my time. The only important benchmark is that you reach maximum hip/shoulder separation at footstrike. It doesn't matter, IMO, how you achieve this positioning. An early opening hip - like your son and mine - is no less advantageous than a late, violent, quick rotation. The torque created is identical. This is my best analogy. Think about shooting a rubber band across the room. In one instance, I pull it quickly back to 12" and let go. In another, I pull it back slowly 12" and let go. Both will travel the same distance with the same velocity. How quickly I build and release the tension is inconsequential; it only matters that I develop the tension.
Now, having said that, I have found two reasons to teach it. In some instances, I have found that some of my pitchers can't open up early and hold back their shoulders. This requires that they hold the tension for a longer time. For them, it is easier to achieve separation if they do it the traditional way. Second, I have had coaches during the recruiting process look at his videos and mention it. They think it is important, so I can only guess that when they get ahold of my son they will try to change his mechanics on this point anyway, so I have considered taking the time next off season to change it.
(emphasis mine)
In trying to find that study you're referring to, is came up with this: https://www.drivelinebaseball....s-misunderstandings/
And I note that here it really didn't say the hip rotation was inconsequential, but did say that hip rotation velocity differed little between the low and high velocity groups they tested, and they found that timing of it was important.
From a physics POV, the momentum for that part of the hip rotation that's directed away from the plate of course provides nothing to of a pitch velocity , But the unwinding toward the plate from that position does in the same way the unwinding of the rotation of the shoulders produces more distance for time of acceleration to produce more velocity. Now, to be sure, I'm not trying to say that this hip rotation does as much as shoulder rotation for velocity. But if you do it and get the timing right, you will get a + in velocity and just how much will depend on the distance of the hip turn and the timing within the kinetic chain.
Guess I'll have to try and get hold of Dr. Marshall's Pitching Book and see what more in his study. I love science. 
Truman posted:roothog66 posted:I'm going to add that I used to worry about that rotation with my son. He does the same as yours. Some call it hurdling. Most coaches want to see that early hip load. I tried my best to change this with my son and at times got what I wanted only to have him revert. Here's the conclusion I finally came to: THAT EARLY HIP LOAD EVERYONE TEACHES IS COMPLETE NONSENSE. It does not add to velocity. In fact, a fairly recent ASMI study measured hip rotation in pitchers and found that it was inconsequential in regards to velocity. If you think about it from a physics point of view, this makes sense. Hip rotation is momentum that is directed away from the plate. It provides no momentum velocity. After having dealt with this with a lot of pitchers and then having it show no increased velocity, I have stopped trying to teach it. I feel it was a waste of my time. The only important benchmark is that you reach maximum hip/shoulder separation at footstrike. It doesn't matter, IMO, how you achieve this positioning. An early opening hip - like your son and mine - is no less advantageous than a late, violent, quick rotation. The torque created is identical. This is my best analogy. Think about shooting a rubber band across the room. In one instance, I pull it quickly back to 12" and let go. In another, I pull it back slowly 12" and let go. Both will travel the same distance with the same velocity. How quickly I build and release the tension is inconsequential; it only matters that I develop the tension.
Now, having said that, I have found two reasons to teach it. In some instances, I have found that some of my pitchers can't open up early and hold back their shoulders. This requires that they hold the tension for a longer time. For them, it is easier to achieve separation if they do it the traditional way. Second, I have had coaches during the recruiting process look at his videos and mention it. They think it is important, so I can only guess that when they get ahold of my son they will try to change his mechanics on this point anyway, so I have considered taking the time next off season to change it.
(emphasis mine)
In trying to find that study you're referring to, is came up with this: https://www.drivelinebaseball....s-misunderstandings/
And I note that here it really didn't say the hip rotation was inconsequential, but did say that hip rotation velocity differed little between the low and high velocity groups they tested, and they found that timing of it was important.
From a physics POV, the momentum for that part of the hip rotation that's directed away from the plate of course provides nothing to of a pitch velocity , But the unwinding toward the plate from that position does in the same way the unwinding of the rotation of the shoulders produces more distance for time of acceleration to produce more velocity. Now, to be sure, I'm not trying to say that this hip rotation does as much as shoulder rotation for velocity. But if you do it and get the timing right, you will get a + in velocity and just how much will depend on the distance of the hip turn and the timing within the kinetic chain.
Guess I'll have to try and get hold of Dr. Marshall's Pitching Book and see what more in his study. I love science.
That is the general argument. However, no one has ever been able to explain it to me convincingly. Hip rotation is, in a properly timed pitch, finished at the time that torso/upper body rotation starts. Given this, how can that rotation add to velocity, other than it sets the hips in place as a base for upper body torques to operate from. Think of it like shooting a slingshot. The tension built by the slingshot depends on the base (handle) and hand remaining stationary. There is no momentum built by twisting, pushing, or pulling the base of the slingshot that will increase the velocity of the projectile. The hips provide that same base. That's the timing component. If the hips are still coming open as the upper body begins to rotate, you lose some of the torque you've built. At least, that seems to make sense to me from a physics point of view.
roothog66 posted:Truman posted:roothog66 posted:I'm going to add that I used to worry about that rotation with my son. He does the same as yours. Some call it hurdling. Most coaches want to see that early hip load. I tried my best to change this with my son and at times got what I wanted only to have him revert. Here's the conclusion I finally came to: THAT EARLY HIP LOAD EVERYONE TEACHES IS COMPLETE NONSENSE. It does not add to velocity. In fact, a fairly recent ASMI study measured hip rotation in pitchers and found that it was inconsequential in regards to velocity. If you think about it from a physics point of view, this makes sense. Hip rotation is momentum that is directed away from the plate. It provides no momentum velocity. After having dealt with this with a lot of pitchers and then having it show no increased velocity, I have stopped trying to teach it. I feel it was a waste of my time. The only important benchmark is that you reach maximum hip/shoulder separation at footstrike. It doesn't matter, IMO, how you achieve this positioning. An early opening hip - like your son and mine - is no less advantageous than a late, violent, quick rotation. The torque created is identical. This is my best analogy. Think about shooting a rubber band across the room. In one instance, I pull it quickly back to 12" and let go. In another, I pull it back slowly 12" and let go. Both will travel the same distance with the same velocity. How quickly I build and release the tension is inconsequential; it only matters that I develop the tension.
Now, having said that, I have found two reasons to teach it. In some instances, I have found that some of my pitchers can't open up early and hold back their shoulders. This requires that they hold the tension for a longer time. For them, it is easier to achieve separation if they do it the traditional way. Second, I have had coaches during the recruiting process look at his videos and mention it. They think it is important, so I can only guess that when they get ahold of my son they will try to change his mechanics on this point anyway, so I have considered taking the time next off season to change it.
(emphasis mine)
In trying to find that study you're referring to, is came up with this: https://www.drivelinebaseball....s-misunderstandings/
And I note that here it really didn't say the hip rotation was inconsequential, but did say that hip rotation velocity differed little between the low and high velocity groups they tested, and they found that timing of it was important.
From a physics POV, the momentum for that part of the hip rotation that's directed away from the plate of course provides nothing to of a pitch velocity , But the unwinding toward the plate from that position does in the same way the unwinding of the rotation of the shoulders produces more distance for time of acceleration to produce more velocity. Now, to be sure, I'm not trying to say that this hip rotation does as much as shoulder rotation for velocity. But if you do it and get the timing right, you will get a + in velocity and just how much will depend on the distance of the hip turn and the timing within the kinetic chain.
Guess I'll have to try and get hold of Dr. Marshall's Pitching Book and see what more in his study. I love science.
That is the general argument. However, no one has ever been able to explain it to me convincingly. Hip rotation is, in a properly timed pitch, finished at the time that torso/upper body rotation starts. Given this, how can that rotation add to velocity, other than it sets the hips in place as a base for upper body torques to operate from. Think of it like shooting a slingshot. The tension built by the slingshot depends on the base (handle) and hand remaining stationary. There is no momentum built by twisting, pushing, or pulling the base of the slingshot that will increase the velocity of the projectile. The hips provide that same base. That's the timing component. If the hips are still coming open as the upper body begins to rotate, you lose some of the torque you've built. At least, that seems to make sense to me from a physics point of view.
I think we can agree that from the hips to the shoulder it's important to set an angular separation between the two. That angular separation puts torque on the torso use to help generate acceleration to ball velocity at release point. Assume for illustration purposes that this acceleration is constant. From physics we know that velocity is a function of acceleration over time/distance. The further the distance the higher the velocity for a given acceleration. Also the shorter the distance the higher the acceleration needs to be in order to achieve and equivalent velocity of a longer distance. By rotating the hips, you increase the distance the throwing hand travels relative to the release point of the throw and hopefully, this is done without any change or reduction in the angular separation of the shoulders that's usually there as the forward motion begins. Since there is a longer distance for the hand to travel, given the same acceleration, there would be an increase in velocity.
It's kinda like the difference from being on your knees and throwing vs. standing and throwing where standing you get much more rotation resulting in more velocity.
A thought occurs to me too that where less acceleration is needed over a longer distance than a shorter distance to achieve a particular fixed velocity. And reducing arm acceleration is good at reducing stress on the arm.