yet another question on bat size

HS will require using a -3. Get it today & get lots of cuts in. Make sure the bat is stamped "BESR Certified for High School Play".

okey doke, that's what I needed to hear. Thanks, Texan. Will hit the sports store as soon as he's out of school. I'm so excited! I LOVE shopping for baseball stuff!

I've been reading things on the Internet and scaring myself as usual. Some horrible stories out there about infielders getting hurt by balls hit off the aluminum bats. So is this -3 rule in effect for ALL high schools across the country? I read all about why they came up with the ruling, but not if it's mandatory. I heard some guys talking at this conditioning thing my son goes to and they were saying how Iowa just instituted the -3 rule and they were complaining about it( we're in Nebraska). I'm confused!

Thanks brn2hit. Good thing you guys are here. I would've sent my kid in there with a -7 and he wouldn't have any idea what the heck they were talking about if they mentioned the -3. I can't believe I wasn't aware of this!

quote:

Originally posted by lsj18:
I've been reading things on the Internet and scaring myself as usual. Some horrible stories out there about infielders getting hurt by balls hit off the aluminum bats. So is this -3 rule in effect for ALL high schools across the country?

-3 (which is referred to as the "drop") is the rule for most High Schools.

Don't ignore the BESR rating either (BESR = Bat Exit Speed Ratio which means how fast the ball will come off the bat). Not every -3 is the same; some are more lively than others.

Some HS leagues (or states) may have BESR limits. I know that my adult slow pitch softball league does, which is why Miken bats are not allowed.

Oh boy, this is getting more complicated. So these BESR limits that some places may have means that certain bat types may not be allowed even though they have the appropriate drop? I guess the only way to find out for sure is to ask the coach. I was all excited to pick my son up in a few minutes and go bat shopping immediately! Typical woman, any excuse to go shopping makes my day! The more lively bats that you mentioned,painguy, is that with all brands or is it safe to buy a Louisville? I was planning on looking for either the Dynasty or Omaha. It's tempting to get the Exo, but at $350.00.... I don't know. I love to spend money(even when I don't have it!), but it seems a bit much for a freshman and as brn2hit stated above, it's probably not necessary.

Chris, are you saying that there are different BESR ratings???

lsj, if the -3 bat says "BESR certified", you are okay. The vast majority of the -3's are BESR certified.

I wouldn't recommend spending big bucks on the top of the line bats. Because of the BESR limit, there is little difference from one bat to the next in terms of "pop".

You MUST get a heavier bat. High school requires a -3. If he has been swinging a 32in 25oz, I would suggest a 31in 28oz since 4 oz can make all the difference in his swing. I'm not too much bigger than he is, 5'8" 128lbs. I use a 32in 29oz wood bat and a 31in 28oz metal bat.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Chris, are you saying that there are different BESR ratings???

Theoretically, Yes.

But it looks like the way the concept is being applied is a simple over and under. If you're under the number, then you're certified. If you're over, then you're not.

Of course, this also means that there's probably not going to be a significant performance difference between two BESR-rated bats (which means it's probably not worth spending the extra bucks).

As with golf clubs, a certified bat can only hit the ball so hard.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
But it looks like the way the concept is being applied is a simple over and under. If you're under the number, then you're certified. If you're over, then you're not.

Of course, this also means that there's probably not going to be a significant performance difference between two BESR-rated bats (which means it's probably not worth spending the extra bucks).

That much is correct.

Thanks a lot for the input guys. Just back from the store. We went with the Dynasty, 32' 29. This store by us has a cage where customers can test the bats. It was pretty cool. I get what you guys mean about performance in regards to different bat types. Besides, a good hitter is going to hit the ball solidly no matter what bat he's using. I sprang for the Dynasty because I want him to have a well made bat that might actually last more than a year.

Great Choice! Good luck with the new club!

lsj, the bat will be dead within six months if your son takes very many cuts. After six months, it will have dents. Probably not visible, but you will be able to feel them. When that happens, send it back for warranty replacement.

You do not want to use the same aluminum bat you use in the cage in games--they have a life of about a year depending the amound of use


Also you want to bat to feel good in the players hands, not what others tell you he should have--I used to sleep with my bat under the bed

If you only have one -3 bat you may need to use it all the time. Get a cheap wood bat for batting practice and cage work.

Great tips, thanks everyone. He's got a couple of wood bats he uses for practice and a collection of old aluminum ones. I was not aware of the warranty on these bats. That's great! I also got him one of those Tuff Sleeves. Do those things really protect the bat?

I told him to try out whatever bats he wanted at the store, even the exo, and he thought the dynasty felt like the best fit for him. Once a kid starts using a -3, should they pretty much stick to a bat that weighs around the same when they practice? Using a lighter bat at bp would probably be a bad idea, I'm guessing.

quote:

Originally posted by lsj18:
Using a lighter bat at bp would probably be a bad idea, I'm guessing.

Actually, there is some evidence that it's better to use a lighter bat than a heavier bat when practicing.

Ok, painguy, I'll have to check into that. I assumed the heavier the better since you have to be pretty **** quick to get that bat around in time. I did read something about not using bat weights, though, because swinging a lighter bat at game time could screw you up. Then I see the pros using them on deck so who knows what the hell to believe. I'm still learning about all the intricacies in this game. It's fascinating. Next time I hear someone say baseball is boring I'm gonna smack em upside the head.

I personally don't like donuts because the force the hands away from the body. I recommend the Procut instead. It is a bat weight that goes on the handle. The extra weight keeps your hands in close to the body. Takes a second longer to put on and take off, but worth it. Just my opinion.

Hey Doc,

I never heard of the Procut. I'll have to check that out,too. He's been using that power wrap thing that goes around the barrel and I can see what you mean about forcing the hands away from the body. That's a good point.

I second the idea of using wood in the cages. If you can hit with wood you can hit even better with aluminum. The smaller sweet spot helps encourage a proper swing. I would not rely on the tough sleeve. As a team we use wood daily except in games or in some simulated games. I feel that it has really helped, and there is nothing like the sound of the crack of the bat. We play in 2 wood bat tournaments a year and they are a favorite for our players, but I digress.

Players need to hit with both wood & aluminum in the cages. The positive aspects of using wood have been noted by other posters. But the weight & balance of the aluminum will be different. These can subtly affect timing. So plenty of cuts are also needed with the bat that will be used in the game.

As to using weights in the on-deck circle. This has been common for a long time. However, a couple of years ago I saw a study on batspeed. They measured bat speed for batters who: had used weights in the ondeck circle; who used no weights; and who swung an underweight bat. The study showed that the highest batspeed at the plate was obtained by swinging a slightly (1 or 2 ozs. if I recall properly) bat in the on-deck circle. Next fastest was just swinging the bat along. The slowest batspeeds were obtained by those swinging weighted bats in the on-deck circle.

Ok, that's good to hear, hscoach. I've always felt that way about wood, too. I wish they used wood in high school and college. That's great that you have your guys using wood all the time outside of games. Ya know, when we were bat shopping yesterday, the salesguy kept pushing certain aluminum bats saying that they had a bigger sweet spot and I kept saying that we didn't want that and he was getting annoyed, but common sense just tells you that you need to get used to a small sweet spot. Aluminum bats are too forgiving as it is. I've always wondered if a lot of guys struggle when they eventually change over to wood. That's why the earlier they get used to it the better.

Alright, this is when things get tricky. God, this sport is so confusing!!! So I guess to play it safe you should use both types of bats during bp. Your points make sense, Texan. That study you mentioned about the weights is the same thing I must have read. I'm not doubting the study, but it just seems weird to me. I don't understand why that would happen. Unless they're tired from swinging with the weight and by the time they get to the plate they swing slower?

I can't recall the exact reasoning in the report. Seems like the theory was that the heavier bats were slowing the swing in the warmups, and that the body was remembering these slow swings a few moments later when at the plate.

Interesting study Texan. I guess it goes along that theory of the lighter and heavier ball for throwing. I do wonder though, if a lighter bat increases the bat speed, isn't that what you would be doing by using a bat to hit with that is slightly lighter than a warm-up bat. If using a heavier bat slows down the swing then I wonder why going to a heavier bat when hitting wouldn't slow the hitting swing down a bit. Or how long after the warm-up swings that would hold true. Just thinking out loud here. Could you point me in the direction of the study, I definitely want to learn more? Again, thanks for the great info.

If I can find it again...

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
I can't recall the exact reasoning in the report. Seems like the theory was that the heavier bats were slowing the swing in the warmups, and that the body was remembering these slow swings a few moments later when at the plate.

Yes.

Lighter bats led to higher bat speed and vice versa.

I can't remember where I read that article either, but I'll search around till I find it again. You think there's a difference between using resistance training aids like the parachute or fins as opposed to weights?

The study only addressed the scenario of what to swing in the on-deck circle at game time. In that scenario and given the study's theory, it wouldn't make any difference if the batter used a weighted bat or fins. Either slows the swing.

For training purposes, many recommend using both overweight and slightly underweight bats.

hsbbc, you will need to do a search unless lsj can locate the document. Apparently I didn't keep a copy. Some things I discarded after my son went pitcher only (and thus is DH'ed for).

Thanks. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Here's a site where they summarize and explain the study:

http://www.baseballfit.com/baseball-batting-power.htm

I'm still looking for the actual article.

Thank you Texan and Isj18. I have been cruising the internet looking for information. I thought I would pass along what I found. Dr. Coop DeRenne found that if you swing either a slightly heavier or slightly lighter bat, bat speed will be improved. Anything close the the actual weight of the bat without going more than about 4oz. over or under will give positive results. Very interesting stuff. That is why I thoroughly enjoy this site so much. I have been at this for a while now, but still love to pick up new things. Anyone want to buy a donut weight for this season? I'm selling!

LOL, me too! I'm selling everything and starting all over again!

Different study than what I had found. I recall that what I had seen was a scientific paper that included the raw data in an appendix. But Derenne's results seem to be pretty close.