You know what stinks

Coach sorry for the loss.

I am glad that you are on the right side of the pitching issue. I watched our ex-coach yesterday allow his new team's pitcher throw 7 innings in 45 degree weather. I am sure the kid threw over 130 pitches. We were down 3 going into the bottom of the 7th. 5 straight singles and the game was over. The kid got tired. His coach didn't even get another warm. Even our coaches couldn't believe that he did this. This is par for the course for this guy. Thankfully he no longer coaches my son who is a pitcher.

Coach - Tough loss and using the word criminal is not over the top and I wouldn't qualify it with the word almost. I wonder how folks would feel if Dad went down to the dugout in the 10th inning after 110 pitches and said.."Coach that's enough."

This comes up every so often and while I am not generally in favor of administrative rules I do think pitch counts in HS ball should be mandatory to protect the arms from the knuckleheads.

Have to agree on the pitch counts some of these coaches allow . Are they so worried about winning that they are willing to hurt a kid's arm ? My boy is playing for a Juco in Bama , he was recently throwing a 1 hitter , cruising along and reached the "Coaches " pitch count and he was done . While son was not happy I had to admire coach as he is more interested in future than burning a kid's arm in a non- conference game .

Coach....those extra inning losses are always tough.

I am all for pitch counts, but am totally against the state setting the limit. This should be set by the coach, and he should know his players individually. Case in point....My starter last night had a 65 pitch limit and he threw 4 innings. Tonight's starter has a 100 pitch limit.

I could swear I hear on here all the time " I support the coach, I will side with the coach right or wrong or for better or worse". " sit in the stands be quiet and let the coach coach". Too many nut ball coaches out there. The vast majority are good but that still leaves hundreds between high school, legion and club ball. I'm amazed he still had enough to hold the other team down and win but he did. Now the coach feels justified and vindicated. Too bad. Our coach gets counts every inning on both pitchers. My son got pulled mid inning two days ago after hitting 88 pitches. All our boys are on a count ( my sons was 85 for the game). Very normal up here during the early season. Even during the summer 100 is rare.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
…I am all for pitch counts, but am totally against the state setting the limit. This should be set by the coach, and he should know his players individually. Case in point....My starter last night had a 65 pitch limit and he threw 4 innings. Tonight's starter has a 100 pitch limit.

I’m against the state setting the limit as well, and a good example is what the states came up with for the limits currently in place. IOW, I’d rather have the organization writing the rules set the limit the way LL Inc. did, and in this case the organization is NFHS.

It may seem crazy to have that perspective but then say I’d rather the coach be the one allowed to set the limit, but it really isn’t. I agree that in a perfect world that has perfect coaches, there “shouldn’t” be a problem, but obviously from coach2709’s story and from my own personal experience, that’s simply not always going to be the case.

The pitcher in his story only threw 8 innings, which I’m pretty sure is well within the rules, but 150 pitches? And I’m pretty sure that story is repeated many times in the 300,000-500,000 HS games played each HS baseball season.

There are simply way too many factors to set a national pitch limit by the NFHS.....Just to mention a few that have come up on here.

*Temp.
*How early/late in season
*Age 14 vs 18 years old
*Have they been working out for baseball or are they coming in late from basketball/s****r, etc.
*Throwing 80 pitches in 3 innings vs 80 pitches in 6 innings.

The list could go on and on. If the coach is putting kids at risk of injury, find a new coach....by the way, there is an inherent risk of injury every time you step on the field. In the 17 years as a pitching coach or head coach at the hs level, I have not had a single player have an injury or need surgury due to throwing.

Who knows what the player is capable of better than the coach that he is with 40 hrs a week, parent, and the player themselves?

Just to step back a little bit here...

Why is 100 OK, but 150 is not?

Where do these numbers come from? (I have tried to find the exact rationale at ASMI) 100 is a nice round number. Your arm knows nothing about base 10 math, though.

I can walk through a mine field without setting off a single mine, does that make me a genius or a lucky idiot. Often, injuries from fatigue don't show themselves until much later, like years.

Many, much smarter than me, have and can set limits for all ages and I'll bet, most situations. There will always be a need for common sense.

Never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would not say I was an idiot either. If everyone was using common sense, there would be no need for a ruling body to set limits.

Also, being able to set and makes limits makes you a genius or an idiot with that authority.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
Never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would not say I was an idiot either. If everyone was using common sense, there would be no need for a ruling body to set limits.

Also, being able to set and makes limits makes you a genius or an idiot with that authority.

There is a shortage of common sense. Exhitit I: US Congress.

I know this is off topic but I could not resist.

SOS,

Little League and other organizations set their pitch count limits based on published studies and expert opinion. While 100 is a nice round number, it also happens to be where some studies find a correlation to injury (usually for teenagers - less for younger kids). I’ve posted a link to one such study below.

I don’t think anyone would argue that we have enough evidence to know the exact number, but I’m guessing most people would agree that there is a direct relationship between overuse and lack of recovery time to arm injury.

One size definitely does not fit all. Mechanics, flexibility, strength, conditioning, all play a role in injury. But until parents and coaches figure this out for themselves, I think that pitch counts are a reasonable precaution even if they are overly cautious.

I have first-hand experience with an elbow injury. My advice now to all parents is to talk candidly with your son’s coach about pitching limits, preferably before the season starts. If the coach is amenable, agree to use some published guideline like the LL or ASMI recommendations, even if this is just for your child. Of course, include any pitching that your son does with other teams. I find this method a much better option than walking down to the dugout in the middle of a game to confront the coach.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by d8:

Also, being able to set and makes limits makes you a genius or an idiot with that authority.

Said like a true high school coach. That's exactly why I said people(doctors) much smarter than you or me could probably come as close to setting this limit if only the egos would listen.

150 seems scary high but throwing 70 pitches one day then 50 two days later probably scares me more.

What I'm curious to know from this group is: When should a parent draw the line, and how? Son isn't there yet, but there's no way in he** he's going to pitch 150 while I sit on my hands in the stands. Would any of you?

So if that's the case, how to handle? Most of the dads on HSBBW seem to take the position that parents talking to coaches about their sons is taboo.

So what's the answer? My gut is one of two things:
* Son tells coach prior to season that Dad (and maybe select coach) insist on a pitch limit ... or
* Dad has similar conversation with coach prior to season.

Just seems like there HAS to be SOME way to get between these kinds of coaches and our sons' futures.

quote:

Originally posted by jp24:
What I'm curious to know from this group is: When should a parent draw the line, and how? Son isn't there yet, but there's no way in he** he's going to pitch 150 while I sit on my hands in the stands. Would any of you?

So if that's the case, how to handle? Most of the dads on HSBBW seem to take the position that parents talking to coaches about their sons is taboo.

So what's the answer? My gut is one of two things:
* Son tells coach prior to season that Dad (and maybe select coach) insist on a pitch limit ... or
* Dad has similar conversation with coach prior to season.

Just seems like there HAS to be SOME way to get between these kinds of coaches and our sons' futures.

There's a difference between safety and baseball. If a parent justifiably has to worry about a kid's arm, there's no question what needs to be done.

quote:

Originally posted by jp24:
What I'm curious to know from this group is: When should a parent draw the line, and how? Son isn't there yet, but there's no way in he** he's going to pitch 150 while I sit on my hands in the stands. Would any of you?

So if that's the case, how to handle? Most of the dads on HSBBW seem to take the position that parents talking to coaches about their sons is taboo.

So what's the answer? My gut is one of two things:
* Son tells coach prior to season that Dad (and maybe select coach) insist on a pitch limit ... or
* Dad has similar conversation with coach prior to season.

Just seems like there HAS to be SOME way to get between these kinds of coaches and our sons' futures.

My sons first game of his HS senior season, in a pre season tournament, he pitched well over 80 pitches. Now that may not sound like a lot to some, but if you haven't gone over 30,40 in a bull pen then that is too much.

The next day husband called the coach and the AD and asked for a sit down. He had never been in this situation with any coach or manager, but he felt that his son's scholarship and future was more important than a pre season win. The impression he got was that there wasn't enough pitchers, and husband made it clear that son wasn't going to carry the load for the team. That was the first and last time he had to have that discussion.

FWIW, it didn't hurt the relationship that was built over the years, so if you feel that your son's health could be compromised speak up.

Do I feel that a parent has the right to tell a coach how to run his team, no, but I do think that a parent has the right to protect their player, yes. You don't have to go crazy, but when you see a situation that doesn't feel right to you, question it because you won't have the opportunity after he leaves the nest.

JMO.

One year 1998 during the Area Code games in San Diego, the White Sox AC team had 6 pitcher who threw over 90 mph.

One pitcher's father was a MD and he told me that he had a "pitch" count agreement w/ the HS coach. Limit 80 pitches. The parents had a "count down" when the young man pitched.

I said to the father, that if I was a coach I would pitch his son the "back" 5 innings, drill my middle infielders one hour each day to make the DP and instruct the defense to hold runners at 1b.

Now he can average 16 pitches per inning and we can be competitive.

Bob

Yesterday at my sons Middle School game, the opposing pitcher threw 138 pitches and never made it out of the 5th inning. I just can't comprehend how someone can justify a 13 year old throwing that many pitches.

As a father and coach, the best thing I have found that actually works is to properly inform the pitchers- to teach them about fatigue, arm injury, etc. then let them know that they themselves have the final say on if they are pitching or not anymore. It is easy for a kid who has this knowledge to tell his coach he is getting tired, arms tightening up, losing control, etc. Only that individual pitcher knows exactly where he is at and how his body is feeling. Most young pitchers have been led to believe certain pain like joint pain is normal after pitching and that a little ice and ibuprofen will cure everything.

Whats a good pitch count? Thats hard to say. Some kids can throw over a 100 without fatigue leading to injury. Others can't throw over 30 without severe discomfort and fatigue that will lead to injury without proper rest and rehabilitation/recovery. 100+ pitch outings don't bother me if the kid is conditioned, has proper mechanics and has good rest between outings. I get bothered though when I see kids pitching medium stints and they start developing chronic pain issues and ice becomes a daily habit for them. Those kids are destined for injury.

We got two complete game wins from pitchers this week. One threw 116 pitches and the other threw 121 pitches. Your thoughts? 125 would have been the max regardless of the situation. Now, the way we use our pitchers, these may be two of the few times that our arms throw over 100.

quote:

Originally posted by jp24:
What I'm curious to know from this group is: When should a parent draw the line, and how? Son isn't there yet, but there's no way in he** he's going to pitch 150 while I sit on my hands in the stands. Would any of you?

So if that's the case, how to handle? Most of the dads on HSBBW seem to take the position that parents talking to coaches about their sons is taboo.

So what's the answer? My gut is one of two things:
* Son tells coach prior to season that Dad (and maybe select coach) insist on a pitch limit ... or
* Dad has similar conversation with coach prior to season.

Just seems like there HAS to be SOME way to get between these kinds of coaches and our sons' futures.

I do believe that a parent does have the right and responsibility to say something to a coach in that situation. Parents need to realize that it will get ugly because no coach - good or bad - will like being told what to do.

It's also a very tricky situation in protecting your sons also. To be perfectly honest in your first starred bullet if a parent and / or travel coach came up to me to discuss setting pitch limits for my team I would tell them to go do something bad to themselves. But then again I'm not going to let a pitcher end up throwing a crazy number of pitches or not get enough rest.

Do have some good news though. In tonight's game one of the pitchers who threw against us has been cancer free for over a year. This school we played holds a camp in the summer and I've worked it a few times and in that time I've gotten to know some of their kids pretty well. This kid is just a great kid and he had testicular cancer. Tonight is the first time I've seen him since last season and he looked healthy. Had some zip on his fastball and he had gained some weight. It's good to see any kid recover from something like this but when they are a great person it makes it even sweeter.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

Do have some good news though. In tonight's game one of the pitchers who threw against us has been cancer free for over a year. ... This kid is just a great kid and he had testicular cancer. Tonight is the first time I've seen him since last season and he looked healthy. Had some zip on his fastball and he had gained some weight. It's good to see any kid recover from something like this but when they are a great person it makes it even sweeter.

FABULOUS!!!!!!!!!!

Great news! So glad you shared it!

A young cancer survivor. Wow. Talk about putting it all into perspective ... thanks for sharing.

To be clear, my first suggestion was that the PLAYER tell HS coach that dad (and maybe select coach) wants limits on HIS pitching -- not that dad and select coach talk to HS coach -- and certainly no one has the right to even discuss how HS coach handles other dad's sons. That would be WAY off limits of course, and I'd expect a coach to respond as you say.

Question is, what would YOU say if I came to you, as TPM suggests, and said: "I believe my son has a future in baseball and would appreciate it if you would work with me to ensure we don't risk injury by limiting him to X number of pitches in X number of days" ... and the two of us agree on what X is?

Seems like absent that difficult, but sometimes necessary conversation, we unwittingly give him permission to make the call -- no matter what. And as I've read too often on this forum, that's just not always wise.

Of course my hope and expectaton is that like the vast majority of HS coaches, ours will care for his pitchers' arms. Just as I hope and expect his math teacher will care for his mind. I just think I would HAVE to step in when lines are crossed.

Keep in mind -- I'm the rookie here. My son is a 2016 ... not even a freshman yet -- so this is all preparatory for me. But it's clearly a reality for some.

It always is interesting to read about pitch counts and the argument that how do we really know what is to much or not enough by coaches and so called experts.

How would you deal with a coach that overuses a kid is always a concern and the answers are just not good enough for me.

If I told you that anything over 100 pitches in a game or any inning over 35 increases the risk of labrum tears by 5 times, and that a labrum surgery takes one year to recover from with no guarantees of full recovery, what would you do as a parent? Would you gamble your sophomores kids arm (on varsity) and not say anything??? Even with the pre season tournament on the line??

Well I did just that and will never ever forgive myself as long as I live. Why you ask, because I was intimidated by the coach and his reputation for never ever playing a kid if a parent says anything to him. Shame on me!!!!

True story.

If I could have a do over, I would have made a reason why he was done, and if you hold it against my son I would make sure everyone would know what happened. And then go to the principal and the district.

Do not let this happen to your son.

quote:

Originally posted by sandlot dad:
If I told you that anything over 100 pitches in a game or any inning over 35 increases the risk of labrum tears by 5 times

I would ask you where you got this information

quote:

Well I did just that and will never ever forgive myself as long as I live. Why you ask, because I was intimidated by the coach and his reputation for never ever playing a kid if a parent says anything to him. Shame on me!!!!

Sandlot, your experience isn't unique and still occurs more often than many want to admit. The view in the rear view mirror is very clear. The problem for most parents is that they don't believe it will happen to their son and if the truth be known, they're often afraid that they may hurt their sons playing time if they step up. Another issue, is the parent often isn't knowledgeable enough to speak to the coach on baseball matters. You need to become informed!

What many are missing, I believe, is that as youth players we the parents ARE responsible for protecting them. It is our primary job! There are lots of baseball Coaches in the world. They are individuals and have their own ideas on any subject you can mention, protecting pitching arms is only one of them. Their perspective could be sound, and then again it may be affected by what they consider higher priorities.

If they are true professionals, any discussion you have with them should be a smooth one! It's the ones' that believe they know everything and are omnipotent, where the disagreements occur. I would remind them that your player is a minor and as such, you the parent are morally and legally responsible for their well being and you don't mind speaking with the AD, along with the coach, on the subject! If it's a Travel team Coach that can't or won't talk on the subject, find a coach whose priorities are more in line with yours.


Until they are out of H.S. I believe it's the parents job to communicate explicitly with both their son and his coaching staff regarding what you think makes sense physically. Hopefully, there will be a consensus. Rational people generally can reach agreement.

Once they graduate H.S. and head off as legal 18 yr. old adults, it's up to them to responsibly care for their body and figure out how to work that out with the coaching staff. Additionally, it's also up to them to continue whatever exercise, conditioning, methods have worked to keep them safe even if it need be done on their own time.

I agree whole heartedly that

• whenever possible do not interfere with the coach unless...
  
• the health of your son is at risk.

NO GAME, NO SEASON, NO AMOUNT OF POPULARITY is worth ruining a young players arm. Sometimes this protection must take place to the dismay of the player. Too bad. Be a parent and make the hard decisions.

Anyone who wants my specifics is welcome to PM me.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
There are simply way too many factors to set a national pitch limit by the NFHS.....Just to mention a few that have come up on here.

That’s exactly what many people said when LL Inc announced their intentions. But somehow the world didn’t end when the limits went into effect.

quote:

*Temp.
*How early/late in season
*Age 14 vs 18 years old
*Have they been working out for baseball or are they coming in late from basketball/s****r, etc.
*Throwing 80 pitches in 3 innings vs 80 pitches in 6 innings.

The list could go on and on. If the coach is putting kids at risk of injury, find a new coach....by the way, there is an inherent risk of injury every time you step on the field. In the 17 years as a pitching coach or head coach at the hs level, I have not had a single player have an injury or need surgury due to throwing.

Who knows what the player is capable of better than the coach that he is with 40 hrs a week, parent, and the player themselves?

Before I say anything else, why is it no one brings up the issues of all the different factors when they discuss the pitching limits by innings that are in place for ever state using the NFHS rules? There’s no sliding scale based on any of the mentioned factors, so if its ok for inning limits, why is it wrong for pitch count limits?

Almost every time I have this discussion, its always about how pitch counts don’t take anything into consideration, but imply that coaches always do, and then make perfect decisions. As long as that mentality continues, ignorance will reign.

As far as you never having a pitcher suffer any injury or need surgery due to throwing, I find that impossible to believe. Never a sore arm in 17 years for a pitcher? That’s too tall a story even for Texas. But more than that. Have you tracked every kid all summer, winter, and past HS? The thing is, you have no idea what your philosophies have cause overall. You only know what you see on your watch.

If you’re getting to spend 40 hours a week with your players, you’re getting about 15-20 more than our coaches do.

As a parent of a pitcher who at 15 did have surgery on his elbow last fall I will tell you that I did watch his pitch counts and still do. His old coach let kids throw without regard for the number of pitches. If the coach isn't going to do something then the parents need to. I'd rather not have my kid play then ruin his arm for the rest of his life.

quote:

Originally posted by jp24:
A young cancer survivor. Wow. Talk about putting it all into perspective ... thanks for sharing.

To be clear, my first suggestion was that the PLAYER tell HS coach that dad (and maybe select coach) wants limits on HIS pitching -- not that dad and select coach talk to HS coach -- and certainly no one has the right to even discuss how HS coach handles other dad's sons. That would be WAY off limits of course, and I'd expect a coach to respond as you say.

Question is, what would YOU say if I came to you, as TPM suggests, and said: "I believe my son has a future in baseball and would appreciate it if you would work with me to ensure we don't risk injury by limiting him to X number of pitches in X number of days" ... and the two of us agree on what X is?

Seems like absent that difficult, but sometimes necessary conversation, we unwittingly give him permission to make the call -- no matter what. And as I've read too often on this forum, that's just not always wise.

Of course my hope and expectaton is that like the vast majority of HS coaches, ours will care for his pitchers' arms. Just as I hope and expect his math teacher will care for his mind. I just think I would HAVE to step in when lines are crossed.

Keep in mind -- I'm the rookie here. My son is a 2016 ... not even a freshman yet -- so this is all preparatory for me. But it's clearly a reality for some.

Honestly, for me, it doesn't matter if they have a future in baseball or not. I'm not going to burn out a kids arm even if he's going to college to be on the debate team. That being said - how do you as a parent know that's the type of coach I am? Usually by reputation is one way. Once a coach establishes their pattern of coaching incoming parents should have an idea of what to expect.

Now let's say the coach is new then I think he needs to have a preseason parent meeting to discuss rules and philosophy. Included would be his philosophy on pitch counts. If he doesn't have one that should be a HUGE red flag. If a family is new to the school then hopefully the preseason meeting will suffice but if they don't have one I think it's a legitimate request to talk to a coach.

As for you approaching me I would be more than happy to sit down and talk with you. I'm all about helping turn your son into a man but at the end of the day they are still your children who are under your care.

I am absolutly against state mandated rules and regulations on pitch counts. There is no one size fits all approach and a coach should have the freedom to push in situations where pushing is needed and to hold back when it's needed to hold back. But I understand why the rules exist - there are some idiots out there. And even with all the precautions in the world sometimes pitchers get hurt. Pitching is a violent action on the body - especially the arm but the best way to safeguard the health of a pitcher's arm is put the preparation in the hands of those who know what they are doing.

I rather set a pitch count too low than too high.