You make the call ... as a parent ... as a coach

Here in Ohio, upper 40's and windy is typical baseball weather.  My son would have thrown 115 in HS in any weather if you'd have let him if it was a must win game.  He'd have been pissed if the coach had tried to take him out.  115 for a college kid a month into the season doesn't seem completely unreasonable to me.....though I would hope it's not a regular occurrence.   My son is a freshman at a D1....and in no way a draft prospect at this time....but I can guarantee you that if it does get to that point and he's pitching a must win game for his college team his junior or senior season, he will still be worried about the win...and not his draft status.  Again, as long as it's not every outing, I don't think it's a major issue

It's easy to see which team you are talking about.  Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.  This team really needs the sweep and they face a top 5 and top 15 team the next two weekends .  You have to get the win.

Looking at the play by play of the game, the pitcher was cruising.  No long innings until the 9th where he threw 22 pitches.  He had 4 innings where he threw less than 10 pitches.   If it was my son out there, I would have let him finish the game too.  

Frankly, I'm not sure I see it as that big of a problem.  So what is the magic number?  100 pitches?  Or the magic temp - 65 deg?  Sounds like the kid was cruising along.  Probably warm and loose.  You know the feeling.  Your properly dressed, blood flowing, adrenaline working, and actually breaking a light sweat and you go about your business.  Wouldn't there be a similar risk in taking a kid who has been sitting for 2+ hours and trying to get him "warm" in a few minutes?

Did his form deteriorate? Did his velo drop noticeably? Did his body language offer hints as to whether he was losing focus?  

Having a magic pitch count number isn't a be all and end all. Determining if a pitcher is still throwing effectively is lots of art and a dash of science.

Too many unknowns to have an opinion either way. Although sometimes abuse happens, I think most coaches have the best interest of the young men at heart. I would also think that the coach and player would know when to say when. 

Lastly, as a parent you trust that the coach wouldn't do anything intentionally to put your son in harm's way. 

hshuler posted:

Too many unknowns to have an opinion either way. Although sometimes abuse happens, I think most coaches have the best interest of the young men at heart. I would also think that the coach and player would know when to say when. 

Lastly, as a parent you trust that the coach wouldn't do anything intentionally to put your son in harm's way. 

He allowed one hit and one walk through eight on ninety-three pitches. He threw twenty-two pitches and walked three in the ninth. It appeared he was physically struggling. His pitches were all over the place in the ninth. That's usually fatigue and inconsistent mechanics.

RJM posted:

hshuler posted:

Too many unknowns to have an opinion either way. Although sometimes abuse happens, I think most coaches have the best interest of the young men at heart. I would also think that the coach and player would know when to say when. 

Lastly, as a parent you trust that the coach wouldn't do anything intentionally to put your son in harm's way. 

He allowed one hit and one walk through eight on ninety-three pitches. He threw twenty-two pitches and walked three in the ninth. It appeared he was physically struggling. His pitches were all over the place in the ninth. That's usually fatigue and inconsistent mechanics.

Based on that information, sounds like he was fatigued. Also sounds like a classic case of the young man convincing the coach to give him one more batter. 

The remainder of the season, may give us an indication of whether it was too much, too soon.

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

Knowing which game and pitcher, as well as the coaching staff, I think the coaches them selves labored over the decision.  I'm fairly sure he was working on his last hitter in that situation. I can understand hy someone might question the decision to leave him in considering everything including weather conditions and that certainly was a closers situation.  I just think it was a tough decision by the coaching staff and they were very relieved he got that final out.

The pitch count was up there, but not what I would consider overly abusive.  Entering the final inning with a very low pitch count in the 8th inning.

No question regarding the talent and draft status.  We actually had someone at that game.  Here was his report...

http://www.perfectgame.org/Art...w.aspx?article=12327

The home teams pitcher was pretty impressive today.

IEBSBL posted:

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

There's nothing a parent should do. I asked how as a parent posters would feel about. Everyone cares about their kids. 

I'm glad I didn't go back today. It was cold again. Plus I would have left feeling bad for the catcher. In the 9th, tied 2-2 he had a throwing error on a steal of second allowing the runner to get to third. Then with two outs he threw away a dropped third strike.

I always felt that getting through HS injury free was the goal. Once you get passed that , as a parent, you have to put your faith and trust in the coaches working with your pitcher.  If you have to worry then it wasn't a good fit,  JMO. Knowing who the pitching coach is, as a parent I would have been OK.  As an FYI pitcher son always had better outings in the cold than heat and humidity in college.  All pitchers are different.

We never once questioned the pcoach's judgment.

With all the added teams in the ACC, an already difficult conference has become a dog fight.

I understand why they kept him in.

RJM posted:

IEBSBL posted:

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

There's nothing a parent should do. I asked how as a parent posters would feel about. Everyone cares about their kids. 

How I as a parent would feel....I would feel worried, I would be cringing, but I also would know that if the "BIG" game was on the line there is no where my kid would rather be than on the mound. 

How many times have you heard the phrase "I'm fine coach, let me stay in/put me back in"?  How many times have you KNOWN your kid was hurt on the field and he didn't come out. I'm assuming you have to trust that the coach knows the kids limits better than you do.

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

IEBSBL posted:

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

There's nothing a parent should do. I asked how as a parent posters would feel about. Everyone cares about their kids. 

How I as a parent would feel....I would feel worried, I would be cringing, but I also would know that if the "BIG" game was on the line there is no where my kid would rather be than on the mound. 

How many times have you heard the phrase "I'm fine coach, let me stay in/put me back in"?  How many times have you KNOWN your kid was hurt on the field and he didn't come out. I'm assuming you have to trust that the coach knows the kids limits better than you do.

Being hurt and playing are two different things. If you know your son is hurt and you don't say anything, that's bad news.

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

How I as a parent would feel....I would feel worried, I would be cringing, but I also would know that if the "BIG" game was on the line there is no where my kid would rather be than on the mound. 

How many times have you heard the phrase "I'm fine coach, let me stay in/put me back in"?  How many times have you KNOWN your kid was hurt on the field and he didn't come out. I'm assuming you have to trust that the coach knows the kids limits better than you do.

Being hurt and playing are two different things. If you know your son is hurt and you don't say anything, that's bad news.

I was referring to things like rolling an ankle, getting cleated sliding into second, overstretching and having to walk it off. We hear of players attempting to play with broken fingers or just taping up an ankle because they want to get back into the game.  If a player has that much passion I doubt he would appreciate being removed from the "BIG" game and I would just hope the coach would know what the kids limits actually were.

Seriously, we're having a thread about 115 pitches... in college????  So many micro-aggressions.

Here is where we get WAY too caught up on individual game pitch counts. Overuse injuries are a product of consistent overuse. They don't come from that one game where a kid throws 115 or even 150 pitches. It's a big picture event. Constant abuse like consistently throwing a kid 110+ pitches on a regular basis with inadequate rest is a real worry over an extended period of time. The occasional need to stretch a pitcher out is different. That's why I laugh when I see uproar over some situation where a senior high school pitcher with no aspirations or chances at playing at the next level is left out there for 125, or even more, pitches in what may be his last pitching performance. If there is a true risk for injury, it was done long before this.

roothog66 posted:

Here is where we get WAY too caught up on individual game pitch counts. Overuse injuries are a product of consistent overuse. They don't come from that one game where a kid throws 115 or even 150 pitches. It's a big picture event. Constant abuse like consistently throwing a kid 110+ pitches on a regular basis with inadequate rest is a real worry over an extended period of time. The occasional need to stretch a pitcher out is different. That's why I laugh when I see uproar over some situation where a senior high school pitcher with no aspirations or chances at playing at the next level is left out there for 125, or even more, pitches in what may be his last pitching performance. If there is a true risk for injury, it was done long before this.

Just curious....what job/career will the kid you mention have later in life?  I'm fairly certain that almost anything he ends up doing will likely require a fully functional arm.  They also won't be happy if/when he needs to take a prolonged vacation to recover from surgery when he's 29 and reinjures his arm while playing RF for the company softball team.  I know 3 guys who have had arm issues in their 20's that were directly related to overuse in HS....and none of them had aspirations of playing at the next level....but they all 3 really do like being able to use their arm without pain

Buckeye 2015 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Here is where we get WAY too caught up on individual game pitch counts. Overuse injuries are a product of consistent overuse. They don't come from that one game where a kid throws 115 or even 150 pitches. It's a big picture event. Constant abuse like consistently throwing a kid 110+ pitches on a regular basis with inadequate rest is a real worry over an extended period of time. The occasional need to stretch a pitcher out is different. That's why I laugh when I see uproar over some situation where a senior high school pitcher with no aspirations or chances at playing at the next level is left out there for 125, or even more, pitches in what may be his last pitching performance. If there is a true risk for injury, it was done long before this.

Just curious....what job/career will the kid you mention have later in life?  I'm fairly certain that almost anything he ends up doing will likely require a fully functional arm.  They also won't be happy if/when he needs to take a prolonged vacation to recover from surgery when he's 29 and reinjures his arm while playing RF for the company softball team.  I know 3 guys who have had arm issues in their 20's that were directly related to overuse in HS....and none of them had aspirations of playing at the next level....but they all 3 really do like being able to use their arm without pain

I gotta ask, Buckeye, did you actually read my post? In no way was I supporting the overuse of high school kids during their careers regardless of their future intent. Are you saying that a kid who has been responsibly used for years and is asked to go 125 pitches at the very end of his career is at some huge risk on that one day? Your argument is that the problem isn't chronic overuse, but that arm injuries are acute? Maybe I'm misreading, but the guys you are talking about - are they pointing to one single performance, without which they would have been just fine or are they complaining of chronic overuse throughout their careers? My point was that overuse is bad, but that it is a big picture problem occurring over extended periods and that you can't boil the cause down to one single performance.

Roothogg.....fair enough.  I guess we don't know enough about this situation to make a call on whether it's right or not.  As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with my son doing it once or twice....and I'd likely be powerless to talk him out of it.  I guess my comment was directed toward your point about it being a kid "with no aspirations of the next level".....like it was ok for him to be overused and hurt because he won't be pitching again.  I did reread your post....I'm thinking I took it out of context......sorry for the confusion.

I guess the only thing I will say is that if a kid is being used too much on a single day....it's pretty likely that the same coach is overusing him more often than that.  Typically the coaches who just "don't get it"....are chronic abusers of kids arms....I know my son's JV coach was exactly that.  He'd always claim that one time was ok....the problem was that one time was always one time after the last time he said it.

Buckeye - makes an excellent point but I want to take a step further back.

In this case we have a kid that is a top 5 -10 pick worth millions of dollars on one side of a the scale and a college baseball game on the other. 

No brainer here - not sure what is there to talk about.  He never should have left the dugout for the 9th.  After the 8th the kid needs to find a way to say - that's it coach, no more today - better get the pen going.  If he's my kid all I'd have to say to him is "atta-boy - way to take care of yourself".

There is not a MLB team that would subject a pitcher at 21 or 22 to this anymore.  If they won't - why would anyone think it is ok for State U to do it? 

Consider this as a possible explanation:  These kids are multi-million dollar assets to a MLB club and just meat to a college program.  When you have value beyond the next 30 or 45 days then you get treated accordingly.  College coach proved point - his crappy team's W today is more important than the health of his players - including his best one.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Roothogg.....fair enough.  I guess we don't know enough about this situation to make a call on whether it's right or not.  As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with my son doing it once or twice....and I'd likely be powerless to talk him out of it.  I guess my comment was directed toward your point about it being a kid "with no aspirations of the next level".....like it was ok for him to be overused and hurt because he won't be pitching again.  I did reread your post....I'm thinking I took it out of context......sorry for the confusion.

I guess the only thing I will say is that if a kid is being used too much on a single day....it's pretty likely that the same coach is overusing him more often than that.  Typically the coaches who just "don't get it"....are chronic abusers of kids arms....I know my son's JV coach was exactly that.  He'd always claim that one time was ok....the problem was that one time was always one time after the last time he said it.

Yeah, it was a badly organized argument on my part because the "aspirations" point had nothing to do with the crux of my point and only confused the issue. I also agree that such single-game overuse is, more often than not, a red flag indicator of a problem rather than an isolated event. While pitch counts have some inherent problems, they do, at the very least, prevent outlandish overuse risk. We shouldn't have to look at such a game and then look back to see if it's an isolated event or a pattern. It's easy to miss the problem this way. We should feel somewhat secure - with pitch counts and, more importantly, mandated rest periods in place - that chronic overuse is extremely difficult to accomplish, even if not outright impossible.

luv baseball posted:

In this case we have a kid that is a top 5 -10 pick worth millions of dollars on one side of a the scale and a college baseball game on the other. 

So at what talent level do coaches not need to factor in the kids career after college? And that's a sincere question.

Kid throwing 95 you better not affect his payday. What about 92 with good movement? Maybe he's a 20th rd guy but has great work ethic and you think he can move through the system quickly. Maybe he'll sign a multi-year deal one day, if you keep him healthy?

What about the backup 3b at your Top 10 program who could start at most other D1s? If only he got more ABs he could really get some attention. Should you sit the regular 3B to foster this kid's MLB dream?

Dramatic analogy, I know. But seriously. If the coach believes for the team the best option is to have Johnny throw the 9th, and he's comfortable with it from a health standpoint, he should go against that just to be over protective of the kid because he's so good? How do you feel if your kid is the #2 on that team? That doesn't bother you a little when he lets your kid pitch the 9th because he's not a first rounder?

So at what talent level do coaches not need to factor in the kids career after college? And that's a sincere question.

Ironhorse - I think the partial answer is in Buckeye's post which I concur with.  The fuller answer is along the line of the medical motto:  Do no harm. 

IMO - When a player is done playing he should be able to throw without pain because he was not injured from overuse regardless of talent level.  I do understand that won't always be the case and injuries occur.  Nevertheless I believe coaches have an obligation to be cautious.  If this was the CWS and he had been careful all year then I can see 110 to 115.  But if he's making these decisions all year and pushing him to start the 7th rather than the 9th on 93 pitches with any regularity - then he's overdoing it. 

My point about the 1st rounder is that it simply makes it worse to put at risk in any way that kind of future.    

Sitting position players isn't the same.  It is very unlikely that he will be hurt by a pitch with the helmet and gear they wear.  Any injury from running, or contact on the field is also unlikely to be irreparable.  Pitching is far and away the most impacted position from an injury standpoint.

RJM posted:

IEBSBL posted:

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

There's nothing a parent should do. I asked how as a parent posters would feel about. Everyone cares about their kids. 

Sorry I guess I misunderstood your question.  I was thrown off by the "pro prospect", "Can't miss", and "Multi Million" comments.  If we are talking about parents and "Kids", which this in not a kid it is an adult, I would think the other comments would not be a defining reason.  I would think if he was the worst pitcher in the country and was left out there a parent will still, "Care".