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YOUNG ARMS ARE FRAGILE THINGS:

E-6E-6100+ posts
YOUNG ARMS ARE FRAGILE THINGS:
Fragile arms spark fierce debate (CRAIG CUSTANCE, 05/02/05, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution)


It's a sensitive subject, for sure. One Major League Baseball scout politely declined to discuss it for fear he might alienate his high school contacts. An agent postponed an interview, deciding after a night's sleep to pass on the discussion altogether.

The question: Are Georgia high school baseball coaches flogging their thoroughbred aces?

Nobody sweats South Gwinnett's basketball coach when NBA prospect Louis Williams plays nearly every second of a playoff game; they'd criticize him if he didn't. You don't hear a peep when a football coach plays his star both ways in a postseason run.

But baseball is different. Coaches who extend their pitchers into triple-digit pitch counts are ripe for criticism. You pitch a kid twice in a week and scouts cringe. Everybody has seen examples of overusing a standout pitcher. Nobody owns up to doing it.

The balance between winning high school baseball games and preserving a pitcher's future is a challenge for the high school coach.

M.L. King coach Paris Burd felt so strongly about the subject that he typed a 897-word document he called "Best for Team or Best for Pitcher." It wasn't exactly a Jerry Maguire manifesto, but his outline included multiple points about preventing overuse. He's never had a pitcher throw more than 42 innings in a season.

Georgia Tech baseball coach Danny Hall has a lot invested in how high school prospects are treated and in what shape their arms are when they arrive in his program.

"The biggest thing is you have to put the player's health as a No. 1 priority and not worry about a couple wins and losses," Hall said. "When it's all said and done, the whole game is about the players. It's not really about the coaches or how many you won in the league or whether you got in the region playoffs. It's, 'Did the player get better? Did he come out of there healthy, and did he have a chance to have a good career?' "

There are scouts who answer an emphatic "no" to both questions. Steve Kring is the area scouting supervisor for the Cincinnati Reds, and he is passionate about the subject of coaches overusing pitchers. He said he couldn't believe agame where two aces combined to throw, by his count, more than 250 pitches.

"I've left games shaking my head; the kid is on my mind the next couple days," Kring said. "I see too much abuse. There's not enough coaches taking the approach to develop arms."


Bill James has done plenty of work showing the dangers of having younger pitchers throw over 100 pitches in any given outing.
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S 2seamer100+ posts
quote:
The question: Are Georgia high school baseball coaches flogging their thoroughbred aces?


It happens everywhere..Georgia, California, North Dakota, High School, Little League, College...

quote:
He said he couldn't believe agame where two aces combined to throw, by his count, more than 250 pitches.

Kind of misleading. "Combined to throw more than 250 pitches" means 125 each. If that's 125 in 9 innings, and the pitchers are in shape, that's not as bad as if it was 4 innings, or if it was the 1st game of the year in February with a windchill of -10 degrees.

To me, this currently is one of the worst times for a pitcher...playoff time. Double elimination games in a short period of time are problematic, because if you have to come out of the loser's bracket, or if you play a couple of high scoring, extra inning games, guys are pushed to throw on shorter rest, closers become starters, and pitch counts may skyrocket. The guys that may have just finished noodling their arms to get through Conf. tournaments in College now may face Regionals, Super Regionals, and maybe Omaha.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
My unscientific personal opinion is that young kids benefit from throwing with the daily pitch limits that you see many organizations pushing, but throwing more frequently than they recommend. This builds more endurance as well as throwing strength.

I have no problem with throwing a young kid (say, a 10-11 year old) 40-50 pitches one day and, if he feels OK, again after only 1 day of not pitching. That's a lot different from throwing a kid that age 100 pitches once and then telling him to go into convalescence for a week. That's going to hurt the boy.

I would have no problem with my high school son closing on Tuesday and then starting on Thursday (but not the other way 'round). I just don't want them throwing him more than, say, 100-110 pitches on Thursday. He is strong but not indestructible. But the Tuesday outing is nothing more than what he would do in the bullpen in preparation for Thursday, except he sees live batters (which is actually a better tune-up for his start).

TR is exactly right on this one. When young kids aren't pitching they should still be throwing. The day after pitching they should be playing catch. (That's if you limited their pitches so they aren't in pain.) The day after that they should be throwing long toss as well.

I have a son who is 16 and a nephew who is 7. When we go to watch the nephew, my son asks, "Didn't we used to catch the ball when we were that age? And didn't we used to be able to throw guys out?" The answer is yes on both counts. We've got so many kids being minivaned to so many activities that they only pick up their balls and gloves when they have team events. They don't play ball out in the street every day like we did. They don't even play catch with Dad or the neighbor's kid any more. It's amazing how suddenly this has become the norm.

Kids love to head to the token-run batting cages and hit several times a week, but they don't seem to understand that they need to throw that way, too.
obradyobrady500+ posts
While I've seen first hand the over use of pitchers in high school , I've seen it more at the college level (maybe because it's on TV and I can watch more games). I wish these guys would remember; these are growing bodies and some of the parts are new and need to be worked cautiously.

Another issue I hate is the coache that will leave a kid in until he fails or gets into serious trouble. We had a scout, watching a couple of our schools games, comment on how the coach never let a kid leave the game feeling good about his performance. I call it the "Bobby Cox" managing style; leave the pitcher in until the winning run gets on base.
Last edited by obrady
BumBum1,000+ posts
Midlo Dad,

Great post. You are 100% correct. In a convoluted sense, the extreme emphasis on pitch counts glosses over the real problem: Kids today just do not throw enough.

It's similar to over-prescribing antibiotics, contributing to a bigger problem such as a weakened immune system.

My son is a LHP who throws year-round. He long-tosses in a racquetball court in the winter and trains once-weekly on his mechanics with a college pitching instructor. He's never had an arm problem. The other pitchers on his team do not throw year-round, and they constantly complain about soreness, tendonitis, etc.

In my own research on the subject, I have learned that its LEGS--not the arm--that gets tired. Kids today are fat and poorly conditioned. They drink too much pop, do no cardiovascular exercise and are borderline asthmatic, barely play catch, don't work on their mechanics, and then (amazingly) their parents blame the coach when their arm hurts after 3 innings of work.

What's next, bicycle helmets for the pitchers?

If you just bought new tires for your car but neglected an alignment, how long would you expect those new tires to last? Well, mechanics, conditioning, and throwing more often is a pitcher's "alignment".

Of course there is overuse and abuse going on. But if a kid is in proper shape thats going to occur at a much deeper pitch-count than what's being advertised. I've seen MLB games lately where the pitcher is getting the hook at about 80 tosses. 80!

I'm assuming HSBBW members' kids are in much better shape and are pretty refined mechanically. So, IMHO our collective mantra should be "THROW MORE" and "COUNT LESS".
Last edited by Bum
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
I don't think you can call serious ball players softer today than the old days. My son and his teammates for the last 5-6 years work harder than I ever worked at baseball or football. They also work smarter and have more opportunity. He also throws 5-6 days a week while at college and works on light and heavy weoght training as do all the serious college players. You can't compare todays athletes to the previous generations.
Yes we played at recess and took our ball and gloves to school every day but kids today are very dedicated if they are serious athletes.
Our coaches pulled pitchers when their control started to waiver or their FB slowed down. The feeling was they are getting tired. Tired doesn't mean over use, Knowing when to pull a pitcher is an art many coaches fail at.
Baseball is one of the sports that has more opinions than facts. Being a pitcher and being pulled are joined at the hip. A coach that shakes his head about pitchers being pulled in a feel bad situation seems strange. Leave him in and let him lose the game feels worse.
Part of our job is to ensure your pitcher son has a balanced approach to the position. He will implode, he will lose and he will get pulled. It is just a matter of when.
Why do college caoches sign pitchers who have injured arms in their freshman year before starting college ? Several pitchers sign who just had Tommy John and will be Redshirted. Arm injury is a part of the sport. You do what you can to avoid it but today the pitchers arms are largly repairable and their are even some who would like TJ surgury because they lnow that a lot of pitchers will emerge better off.
BumBum1,000+ posts
Bobblehead,

You're right. The serious ball players today do train harder, have better equipment, etc. My son is one of those who plays on the elite travel teams..he'll be in the JO in Arizona next month.. and you're right. No way do I believe these kids are softer. Just the opposite..they are way BETTER than the kids "back-when".

I was more referring to the high school team, though, which consists of a lot of kids who haven't had this type of training. At the very least, I think, they could show up in shape with good arms.
Last edited by Bum
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
TR I loved those days but todays athletes are better trained, smart and polished. It is just a different era and the great ball players then and now are linked by the love of the game.
Today good kids deserve a great deal of admiration because the influeneces and much greater to take the wrong path.
Bum the ELITE clubs have taken ball to a new level. Serious ball players demanding better coaching, competition and so on. I think ball is on a come back in our area. I mean just look at those Jays. Mr Rodgers has given local baseball a shot in the arm.
S 2seamer100+ posts
quote:
I wonder how many pitches Nolan Ryan Bob Gibson Bob Feller Tom Seaver etc etc etc threw in High school.


quote:
"Overuse" of the arm begins in LL and adn "cumulative the continues thru HS and College---the arm injury, when it occurs is the result of continual overuse not just one event--it is a case of "buildup' and cumulative damage a little at a time

TRhit


Good points. The difference between Feller, Seaver, Ryan, Gibson, etc. and HS kids now could be that when they were in HS (heck, even when I was in HS), there was baseball season...football season...basketball season..now, players can pretty much in warmer states play baseball 11-12 months a year. For a pitcher, that's a lot of possible innings to throw, with gradual damage possibly being done.

I'd made the point earlier about this being a bad time for pitchers, with double elimination playoffs possibly causing overuse of a pitcher. A perfect example is a kid that was praised in the local newspaper for dragging himself out onto the field to try and keep his team's hopes alive for a D1 Regional bid...he was pulled from a start on the weekend previous to the tournament because he sprained his ankle on a play, started that Thursday, throwing 115 pitches (not counting warmups), came in Saturday to save the 1st game of a doubleheader, throwing 15 pitches in 1 inning, then started the second game of the doubleheader immediately following that, throwing several more innings.

I imagine his left arm is a couple of inches longer than his rightarm now...

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