your call?

None of the codes have an exact rule to cover this...

NFHS and NCAA have no provision, and they defer to OBR.

OBR has no rule but they do have an official Interpretation.

OFF INTERP 298-425 Fitzpatrick: If a runner going into a base does not have body control, he is out if a hard tag knocks him off the base.

OUT...

Would you agree it would be a judgement call on the umpire's part? He would judge rather or not the runner was under control when forced off the bag? I konw that judgement calls can get sticky..

That's why we get the big bucks. Calls like this is the umpiring part of our job.

the way I read it he is safe.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
the way I read it he is safe.

Probably out. That's the umpiring part, deciding if he was illegally knocked off base or accidently knocked off.

Here is one additional detail that I left out of my original post. The runner cominng into 2nd did NOT slide - meaning he came in to the bag under control. The defensive player made an aggressive dive at the runners foot. He did not intentionally push the runners foot off the bag but his momentum carried him "through" the runners leg and forced their foot off the bag.

The umpire made the call as safe. His reasoning was that the momentum of the defensive player carried the runner off the bag. I was just a spectator but it got me thinking, "what would I do in this situation". And I'm still on the fence but I appriciate the feed back from everybody.

Based on the 11:07am scenario....safe would be my call.
If a simple tag knocks a BR off bag...out would be my call.

quote:

Originally posted by jhamlin:
Here is one additional detail that I left out of my original post.

This is one of the hazards of quoting or giving rulings on plays as presented by posters...

This is a crucial detail that affected any interpretation of what happended during the course of this play. This is why many times in this forum you will see the code "HTBT" which means "had to be there".....seeing this in real time would alter a ruling...

Now, back to the actual rule book.....There is no provision in the written rules that says a fielder cant bump a runner off the bag.

To get into this on a definitive manner, Umpires must go to one of the best outside reference materials available....I use the Baseball Rules Differences (BRD) written by Carl Childress.......to that end here is his take....

This is an example of what is called "practical enforcement" ....a rule that that is applied in general practice even though it is not spelled out by the rules...

Such a ruling that would allow a runner to remain safe after being pushed or bumped off the bag by the fielders body has been applied in a practical sense for a long time. AND thats really the common sense approach (CSFP common sense, fair play)...Otherwise fielders would be trying to push runners off the base at every opportunity, making baseball the equivilant of block and tackle football.....

So in light of the new information, I believe the umpire in this case was correct.....

As described, I've got an out. A diving tag is neither pushing the runner off his base, nor bumping him off the bag with his body (the Childress test). It's a legal hard tag. If the runner can't keep his foot on the base, too bad for him.

dash, by making the call you suggest, you're opening the door for a fist-da-cuffs.
Just think if you were the b/r in this situation, & a hard tag knocked you off the base & the ump called you out, don't you think you would have a knee-jerk reaction towards either the player or the umpire. Don't you think this would have ramifications going into the next inning(s)?
Simply, call the b/r safe & tell the fielder that $hit don't work on your shift.

I don't agree with Dash on the out call but that's not the umpires job. The coaches have to keep control of their team so something like this doesn't blow up. If it does then the umps step in and take care of it. If you do something like this you are opening a whole can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

It's a judgement call overall and one team is going to get upset regardless of how you rule. Make the call, be sure of your call and play on. If people get mad then so be it. Have to learn to deal with things like that.

quote:

Originally posted by thecloser:
dash, by making the call you suggest, you're opening the door for a fist-da-cuffs.
Just think if you were the b/r in this situation, & a hard tag knocked you off the base & the ump called you out, don't you think you would have a knee-jerk reaction towards either the player or the umpire. Don't you think this would have ramifications going into the next inning(s)?
Simply, call the b/r safe & tell the fielder that $hit don't work on your shift.

I don't make calls based on what might happen next. If a hard tag knocked the runner's foot off the base, he's out. If the hard tag was completely unnecessary, the fielder gets warned or dumped. If the runner gets pi$$ed and goes after the fielder, buh bye.

Make the correct call without regard to the ramifications. If ramifications follow, deal with them separately.

If this was a bang/bang play, that is the dive and tag ocurred immediately after the runner reached the base, I agree with Dash...out.

But if the runner has maintained control of his body AND possession of the bag for a discernable amount of time prior to the dive and tag, safe.

"I don't make calls based on what might happen next. If a hard tag knocked the runner's foot off the base, he's out. If the hard tag was completely unnecessary, the fielder gets warned or dumped. If the runner gets pi$$ed and goes after the fielder, buh bye".

"Make the correct call without regard to the ramifications. If ramifications follow, deal with them separately".

dash,if u truly believe this, then u don't believe in preventitive umpiring.

quote:

Originally posted by thecloser:

dash,if u truly believe this, then u don't believe in preventitive umpiring.

Preventive umpiring has nothing to do with safe/out, ball/strike, fair/foul calls.

Preventive umpiring involves game managment skills, not selective judgment calls.

So if a pitcher is headhunting, throwing balls high inside, upstairs, you just let it continue, because he hasen't hit 'm yet?

quote:

Originally posted by thecloser:
So if a pitcher is headhunting, throwing balls high inside, upstairs, you just let it continue, because he hasen't hit 'm yet?

Please don't resort to the absurd in attempt to argue your point. Of course that calls for intervention because that falls under game management, not ball/strike, safe/out, fair foul judgment calls, and would be preventive umpiring as I indicated in my earlier post.

You are correct, I was just looking for another angle to get my point across, my bad.
But I just can't think of a play where I would call a runner out when a hard tag knocked the runner off the base. (while he had body control, of course).
In today's White Sox vs A's game, this exact play happened at second base, & the ump called him safe. A's manager argued the call, but to no avail.
Small world, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by thecloser:
But I just can't think of a play where I would call a runner out when a hard tag knocked the runner off the base. (while he had body control, of course).

Then there is no argument.

I believe Dash is invisioning a bang/bang situation with the runner not having the time to establish control and posession when he is hit by the fielder.

I have had to make this call just once in 30 years of umpiring. It was at the D-1 level on a pick off play at second. The runner came back standing up and the tag came down right after his lead foot reached the bag. His body still had some mometum and the hard tag knocked his foot off the bag.

Out.

Some discussion ensued but no one was ejected.

I agree with Dash and Jimmy. On a bang bang play the runner is probably out. If he has established the base then he's safe. I also agree there is a big difference between preventive umpiring and making correct calls. Most if not all preventive skills involve taking care of a problem before it cause a call in the game.

quote:

nt bump a runner off the bag.

piaa_ump your right there no rule saying that. But as umpire you have to judge it from a fair advantage point.

Example: runner from momentum getting to plate accidentally hits catcher. Now what happen here is PU and BU (me) got together and we said it was his momentum and he didn't mean to. this was BR level.

we had the same question on another message board or similar and all umpires agree that the runner would be safe.