Your PO experience at the ~16U level

My son did his 16U summer with a scout team as a PO.

The scout that brought him onto the team had coached him previously, and brought him specifically to be a reliever.  My son didn't have an overpowering fastball, but he had a really good sinker.  He also changed speeds well.  Basically he was very tough on free swinging teams.  The staff was loaded with hard throwers, so my son was used once the opponents seemed to be dialed into the starter's velocity.

We live in South Florida, so we are within reasonable driving distance to many tournament locations.  If he pitched more than 2 innings, he would have a day or two off and we would go home.  

The team was run by a group of scouts who would bring in a handful of new players from Latin America every couple of weeks, so honestly I don't know if you could ever consider it a "team" in the typical sense.  At any point half the team didn't even speak the same language as the other half.

Most of the PO's on the team were 2 way players on their school teams.  Some of them were solid in the field and at bat, but projected to be pitchers as they got older.  They tended to play where they had the most value for the team.  In other words, every player (including the PO's) would have been above average HS fielders - but not all of the fielders were good on the mound.  One of the shortstops was clocked at 90+ across the diamond, but on the mound he was just as likely to hit the batter, the backstop, or the umpire as he was to hit the strike zone. So, he didn't pitch.

I will also say that playing summer ball in Florida with 90+ temperatures tends to make a player appreciate the PO position and it's shaded comforts.

Would agree with Rob T.  Son appreciated 16U on as a PO.  It's hot in TX and he was a catcher before he realized pitching was his future. 

Son had it pretty good. Started for his very competitive local team during our regional schedule and our annual trip to WWBA. Even when not  pitching he was there hanging with his teammates, sneaking an occasional AB (hit for HS team), and spending time coaching first.  He is like me and wants to be around the game, his teammates and the field. 

In the fall and some bigger national tournaments he would close for one of the larger national travel clubs. That too was great. Competition was unreal and great proving ground. 

It wasn't always easy or inexpensive but wouldn't change a thing from my perspective.  Experience was why he got to contribute at collegiate level as a first year player for a team that won over 40 games. 

Son never had any issue quickly fitting in on a new team or with new guys. I think that is more on the kid than the coach. 

For most I don't like the PO.  I would rather go with pitcher primary.  Your main job is to pitch every x days with some rest and rehab on off days.  Then maybe once a week play a position.  I thimk most kids don't want to be a PO.  And most won't be playing at the next level.  We have a kid in our organization they made a PO.   He is also the best defensive first baseman. But he can't hit, so instead of fixing his hitting, he's a PO.  

Is a being a PO looked at as a bad thing? 

In son's experience it was not. To be kind he is slow. To play at level he wanted to he knew only path was on the mound.  College coaches didn't care because they didn't project him as a position player anyway. 

Elijah posted:

Is a being a PO looked at as a bad thing? 

Is it bad for coaches/recruiters, no way.  PO's are very valuable and specialized and often let kids who can't cut it in other areas continue with the game they love.

Now, ask my son who LOVES hitting, fielding, and pitching, if being a PO would be a bad thing and he would shake his head up and down so hard he would probably hurt something! That isn't the role he sees for himself in baseball.  Only time will tell what the coaches think.

Elijah posted:

Is a being a PO looked at as a bad thing? 

Well - by whom?  If you are talking about scouts/recruiters/college coaches - no.  They are going to either keep the player there or put him in  a position anyway.  It's not necessarily seen as the player can't play a position, but just that he is more valuable as a pitcher.

By other players?  Usually not.  By 16 they have pretty much figured out where everybody's strength is and if it is as a pitcher, well that's what it is.

By the player themself?  Maybe. It didn't bother him for summer ball because there were frankly a bunch of guys who would out hit him.  For his school team he wasn't thrilled with being a PO because he's a good hitter and the team was quite offensively challenged.  Not his call though, so it wasn't something he lost sleep over.  

My answer left off what my son thought. He had caught for so long he really enjoyed being in the dugout and not feeling like he was going to die in the southern heat. 

He got to hit all 4 years for his HS team so he got plenty there. 

I will say if your son thinks he might pitch only after HS it is good to find that out early. Mentally it can be a grind at the collegiate level for pitchers. You get the ball maybe once or twice a week. Rest of the week you better love being on the top of that dugout  taking home to first times, charting, or being the best cheerleader you can be. As a pitcher you will spend way more innings in the dugout than on the field. 

It was an adjustment, but for my 2016 it was fine.  Coach basically told him that with his body type he projected so strongly as a pitcher that was probably all that scouts would see or want to see in him.  So if he were to play in the field he would just be taking innings and ABs away from kids who would be position players at the next level.

Also told him that he would be scheduled to pitch x number of innings on whatever day, and when he finished his innings he would get pulled even if he was throwing a perfect game.  (Paraphrasing from memory) "I've got other kids that want to get seen too.  And if you haven't impressed the scouts in the first 4 innings, you're probably not going to."

It took my son a while to get comfortable with showing up for games in shorts, or in many cases not showing up at all on days he wasn't scheduled to pitch (which saved $$$ on travel for those 4-game weekend showcases in south Georgia).  But he learned to embrace the PO diva lifestyle.

My 2018 is a PO on his club team this summer (18U team). He really likes the role. However, we have been prepping him for this for a couple years now. He is a lefty with not a lot of running speed. He can play outfield well and he hits well (been a designated hitter for his hs team since sophomore year), but any future role at the collegiate level will be as a PO. He really likes the pre-game freedom to do what works for him. He doesn't have to be at every game, although he does try to go as much as possible because he likes his team. 

Since he does have one more year of high school ball where he will likely be the center fielder and the #4 hitter, he does play for a Legion team when he isn't playing for his club. He does not pitch for the Legion team. Only position and hitting. It's a busy schedule, but it's working so far.

Good luck! 

I recall many years ago having a tense discussion with my son's youth travel coach on this topic.  He was 13 years old and he was playing on a state championship travel team.  My son was an outstanding pitcher at the time, and a very good hitter but his fielding was not as good as the other players.  My son's coach told him he had the pitching tools to play in high school and beyond.  It wasn't bullshit....we knew it....but son was going to be a PO on this team.   Fast forward...He makes the high school team.  He pitches, plays a position and is one of the best hitters.   He works hard on his fielding and becomes a really good IF, OF and pitcher that can field his position.   He continues to play travel ball.  A couple years later he is playing on a national level team and he is a PO.  He's an all-district high school DH but he is NOT one of the best 9 hitters on his 15 & 16U team although the coach would throw him a bone every so often to give him an AB when he needed a left handed pinch hitter.   He'd always have one of the best batting averages on the team despite the low number of ABs.  He was fine with that.   

He never gave up on improving hitting or fielding his position, however he never could separate himself enough from others in these areas.   He could always separate himself on the mound as his youth travel coach foresaw.  When I look back, the PO opportunity was a great one based on the teams he played for, and the experiences and exposure he would get.  Even in college, he thought he could hit better than half the position players.  I don't think that is too uncommon as think half the position players think they can pitch better than the starting rotation.

So, do the PO where it makes sense but don't give up on hitting if you can do it.  JMO.

I think it is impossible to predict where a kid will end up playing or how he will develop for that fact. There are so many stories in MLB the describe the guy that was average until it all clicked. We are so quick to throw stereotypes on these kids before their bodies and brains have fully developed. I believe anyone playing any level below 18u should not be a PO and especially not in high school which is supposed to be a learning environment. Aren't the supposed to teach the game? This does not serve the development or confidence of future ball players. So many good kids leave this sport because coaches have their own agenda's at the expense of the players. 

I look at it a little differently than Jman.  I don't think my son's experience is all that unique from what I have seen and from what I have heard in talking to the parents of my son's college teammates.  At his level most of his pitching peers were starters at another position for their HS teams and several were football players at a high level as well.  

But almost all of them across the board for their travel/summer teams they were primary and in most cases exclusively pitchers.  Some weren't fast enough, some could not hit well enough, some like my son played on teams where most of the position players played D1 last year.  The common denominator for all of them was they were dominant pitchers at the HS level so on these teams they pitched.

I can say in my son's case he would not be at the school he is at if he continued to play behind the plate.  An almost 8 second 60 is a non starter and IMO staying behind there in the summer even though he was at the time his team's best catcher was a waste of time.  Pitchers are in high demand.  Nothing wrong with showcasing to one's strengths if it allows you to maximize your collegiate opportunities. 

Backstopdad I am glad your son is getting a chance to play in college! It is an amazing once in a lifetime experience he will never forget! My only point is that often (not always) we do not give these kids a chance to develop other areas long enough to see if it clicks. For your son, I see why he chose the pitching path and obviously it was the right choice for him. Being a catcher is a very thankless and physically demanding position. 

jman99 posted:

Backstopdad I am glad your son is getting a chance to play in college! It is an amazing once in a lifetime experience he will never forget! My only point is that often (not always) we do not give these kids a chance to develop other areas long enough to see if it clicks. For your son, I see why he chose the pitching path and obviously it was the right choice for him. Being a catcher is a very thankless and physically demanding position. 

What is a coach suppose to do?  He's got a 6'2, 180# kid running a 7.0 sixty....and a 6'2, 180# kid running an 8.2....he's going to start the faster kid.  It isn't that the coach isn't giving the kid a chance to develop it is that the kid isn't developed.  Now if that slower kid can pitch 85 how do you think the coach should use him?

Caco3girl it depends on what the stick is like. Would you really sit a kid who runs 8.0 60 and is hitting .400? If the kid isn't developed then isn't the coaches job to help develop them? You can teach a kid how to run so they can maximize their speed. 

I think at 16U, coaches want PO's, not a lot of kids want to be PO's.  I know our org lost a couple of pretty good kids because they were offered a PO spot, but not a position to play.

In HS, well, coach will let you know.

jman99 posted:

Caco3girl it depends on what the stick is like. Would you really sit a kid who runs 8.0 60 and is hitting .400? If the kid isn't developed then isn't the coaches job to help develop them? You can teach a kid how to run so they can maximize their speed. 

You don't have to sit him, that's what the DH was created for.

In my opinion speed training isn't the HS Baseball coaches forte, the kid should go ask the track coach for some pointers.  However, sometimes a person just isn't fast, and they aren't going to get fast, the 8.0 might BE with them maximizing their speed.

Fair enough...here is an example of what I am saying...player was told as a freshman in HS that he was going to be a PO while there. He ended up transfering to another HS where he was two way player. Now he is hitting 4 at a D1 program and pitching...this kid is not fast but he is athletic. I am just saying that coaches don't always know the players full potential while they are HS or younger...they are speculating on their potential but you never know.

jman99 posted:

Fair enough...here is an example of what I am saying...player was told as a freshman in HS that he was going to be a PO while there. He ended up transfering to another HS where he was two way player. Now he is hitting 4 at a D1 program and pitching...this kid is not fast but he is athletic. I am just saying that coaches don't always know the players full potential while they are HS or younger...they are speculating on their potential but you never know.

I'm glad it worked out for the kid, but surprised to hear a D1 4 hole hitter is not fast.

Coaches are human and they make mistakes.  Also the needs of the one program may not match up with the needs of another program.  My son faced a 10th grade JV pitcher last year who was throwing 87mph, there was no room for him on Varsity....yet at MANY schools he would have been the fastest pitcher on Varsity.  High Schools have a finite amount of kids to choose from. They are often playing different positions than they do on their travel ball teams because the coach can't just go and get another kid to play where the hole is, he has to fill the hole with what he has.

jman99 posted:

Fair enough...here is an example of what I am saying...player was told as a freshman in HS that he was going to be a PO while there. He ended up transfering to another HS where he was two way player. Now he is hitting 4 at a D1 program and pitching...this kid is not fast but he is athletic. I am just saying that coaches don't always know the players full potential while they are HS or younger...they are speculating on their potential but you never know.

Maybe, but any time a coach is being paid to win baseball games he has to be less concerned with "potential" than "right now". If you spend too much time looking down the road, you usually find yourself out of a job.  A pro team can wait years for a player to develop, but HS and college coaches only have a finite amount of time.

We can certainly hope that a HS coach also cares for a player's future - but his responsibility is not to an individual player, it is to all of the players.  He has to put what is best for his team ahead of developing an individual player's potential - because they aren't always the same thing. If he says Johnny is going to be a PO because he feels that is what is best for the team, at that time - well, that's what he is supposed to do.

My son was a better catcher than a pitcher - hands down.  His school needed pitching, so he pitched. He wasn't thrilled, but he understood the responsibility and the reality. He wouldn't have played travel as a PO, except for the fact that a scout asked him to and it didn't cost us anything. He was willing to do it, but certainly not willing to pay for it.

Does the PO pay as much as a position player on travel teams.  How does that work?

Elijah posted:

Does the PO pay as much as a position player on travel teams.  How does that work?

It varies. Sometimes POs  pay less. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

My son faced a 10th grade JV pitcher last year who was throwing 87mph, there was no room for him on Varsity....yet at MANY schools he would have been the fastest pitcher on Varsity.  

In Wisconsin he would've been All-Conference on Varsity, and potentially 2nd or 3rd team All-State if he had secondary pitches and control!

Elijah posted:

Does the PO pay as much as a position player on travel teams.  How does that work?

In our neck of the woods Elijah they usually pay around 25-50% less.

Elijah posted:

Does the PO pay as much as a position player on travel teams.  How does that work?

In our case, we pay about 30% less than a position player. 

On my son's 16U travel team, there are approximately 11 kids who pitch, with a couple more who can fill in in a pinch. Of those 11 kids, 6 are POs. They seem to be fine with it. They do play lower fees, and they have much different practices.

At my son's high school, there was a two-way player in the 2014 class, and one in the 2016 class. Now a couple 2019s are giving it a shot. But almost all of the pitchers are POs -- e.g., in the five classes from 2014 - 2018, only two pitchers were two-way players. It seems like a normal part of baseball to have POs [and also IOs (infielder only), COs (catcher only), and OFOs (outfielder only)!]

in my experience being a PO is a fun experience, you have all the time in the world at practices to work on what you need to in order to get right whether thats running, plyo balls, or long toss you have a lot of variation in your schedule. I really enjoyed hitting but felt it was better and more beneficial to focus all my time on pitching as that is what I imagined (and now will be) doing at the next level, I still hit in the summers with my scout team but just for fun. The PO's on my HS team were all good friends because we spent so much time together playing around during practice and games when we weren't pitching or preparing to pitch, it certainly is a fun aspect if you really love pitching.

If coaches are supposed to in the best interest of the team then why don't they spend developing the individuals that make up the team? Especially when you have several coaches.

I want to start by quoting something Fenway said:

" don't give up on hitting if you can do it"

I think that speaks volumes.

As far as the whole idea of a PO and where they fit according to the original posters topic / question , A lot of that depends on talent. Not just your sons talent. The talent he surrounds himself with in HS and travel ball.

My son is a OF/LHP two-way guy at a Division 1 school in the South. He was recruited as a pitcher. In HS he was a starting pitcher and he played OF on the days he didn't throw. For travel ball he was a PO LHP out of the pen only. 2014 thru 2016 he played on one of the top travel teams in the country ( Ranked #3 by PG ) . I'm not sure if he ever saw an AB...he did get a few starts but his role was to come outta the pen and empty the tank for an inning . That's it.  That is what I mean by my earlier reference to 'talent' . The travel team he played on had 5 players in his class draft and approx 14-15 D1 commits. For big tourneys they would import starters from all over the country . Big RHPs sitting 93-95 and Big LHPs touching 93 . His job was defined by the talent level of the team. In HS he was a starter and led the league in RBI's but on a stacked uber travel team....PO outta the pen

Once again , I like what Fenway said. Midway thru my sons senior year in HS he experienced shoulder discomfort . He shut it down on the mound. But he continued to hit and did very, very well.

2 weeks before 2016 draft his high school coach received a call from a supervisor at MLB scouting bureau asking for permission to come watch BP and for my sons cell number. The scout worked out my son and 3 NCAA guys at a local college a few days later......as a HITTER .

Son continued to experience shoulder pain as a freshman pitcher in College . During fall ball he DH'd and left an impression on the coaching staff that he could indeed hit. In November last year he had surgery. Redshirted and missed all of last year. He is currently finishing up a long and grueling post surgery rehab. Playing summer ball as a no throw DH and will be cleared to throw from the outfield in games in 3 weeks. He'll return to school for his redshirt freshman year as an OF/ LHP as opposed to a LHP/OF. He'll throw off a mound again but not until after Jan 2018. In the meantime he will try to contribute as a hitter .

My point here with this long summery is basically what Fenway said " Don't give up on the hitting if you can do it". All kinds of things happen. Injuries, etc. If a guy can hit he can give himself more opportunities to continue playing and stay on the field. Pitching is great....but pitchers are susceptible to debilitating arm injuries. Injuries that require surgery and can ultimately end a career.

Keep 'swinging it'......you never know how things are gonna play out

jman99 posted:

If coaches are supposed to in the best interest of the team then why don't they spend developing the individuals that make up the team? Especially when you have several coaches.

Again, because team goals do not always equal individual goals.  If my son wanted to play in college, his best shot would have been as a catcher.  If his school team wanted to win, their best shot was to have him as a pitcher.

Should the coach have just said, "We're going to give our team less of a chance to win, just so this player can improve his skills?"  That would be foolish on his part and a disservice to the rest of the players - it would also be selfish on my son's part.

A player is not forced to play for any team, if he chooses to do that though - he has the responsibility to do everything he can to help that team succeed. If his desire to play any particular position does not fit with what the coaches see as being best for the team - well, there are other teams out there.  If you are in a position, such as with school ball where you are stuck on a team - fill the role you are given for that team, and find an outside way to work on whatever other position it is that you think you should be playing.

jman99 posted:

If coaches are supposed to in the best interest of the team then why don't they spend developing the individuals that make up the team? Especially when you have several coaches.

I'm sorry but this isn't 9u rec ball where we are learning to squish the bug and alligator the ball/catch.  If the kid wants to develop in a way the coaches aren't doing he needs to go outside his high school and travel team and get specialized training on his dime.

Caco3girl I am talking about much further development than squishing the bug as in taking good angles, continuous adjustments, relays, base coverage, understanding the psychology of game within the game, etc... Don't you think the coach of the team should also be sharing as much knowledge as he can with each player? Shouldn't there be some kind of standard coaches are held to, not just winning? IMO winning usually only serves the interest of the coaches considering that most college recruiters are still in season too. 

jman99 posted:

Caco3girl I am talking about much further development than squishing the bug as in taking good angles, continuous adjustments, relays, base coverage, understanding the psychology of game within the game, etc... Don't you think the coach of the team should also be sharing as much knowledge as he can with each player? Shouldn't there be some kind of standard coaches are held to, not just winning? IMO winning usually only serves the interest of the coaches considering that most college recruiters are still in season too. 

There were about 80-100 kids that came out last year for two teams, JV and V, no 9th grade team. The first cuts were anyone who didn't know how to take a path to a fly ball, base coverage, and didn't know to steal on a passed ball without being told. Anyone who just woke up and said I'd like to play baseball today didn't make it.  Anyone who had been playing at a rec park, didn't make it. And anyone who had played for crap travel teams, didn't make it. Anyone who wasn't an athlete and didn't look the part, didn't make it.  If anyone wanted to know specifically why they didn't make it coach had a one on one meeting with to explain and he encouraged them to work on that stuff and come back next year.

 There are many schools that will accept almost anyone for the team, that's not the standard though.

Rob T posted:

jman99 posted:

If coaches are supposed to in the best interest of the team then why don't they spend developing the individuals that make up the team? Especially when you have several coaches.

Again, because team goals do not always equal individual goals.  If my son wanted to play in college, his best shot would have been as a catcher.  If his school team wanted to win, their best shot was to have him as a pitcher.

Should the coach have just said, "We're going to give our team less of a chance to win, just so this player can improve his skills?"  That would be foolish on his part and a disservice to the rest of the players - it would also be selfish on my son's part.

A player is not forced to play for any team, if he chooses to do that though - he has the responsibility to do everything he can to help that team succeed. If his desire to play any particular position does not fit with what the coaches see as being best for the team - well, there are other teams out there.  If you are in a position, such as with school ball where you are stuck on a team - fill the role you are given for that team, and find an outside way to work on whatever other position it is that you think you should be playing.

Our HS coach did this.  Played kids where they wanted to play rather than where they should. Cost us several games. 

jman99 posted:

Caco3girl I am talking about much further development than squishing the bug as in taking good angles, continuous adjustments, relays, base coverage, understanding the psychology of game within the game, etc... Don't you think the coach of the team should also be sharing as much knowledge as he can with each player? Shouldn't there be some kind of standard coaches are held to, not just winning? IMO winning usually only serves the interest of the coaches considering that most college recruiters are still in season too. 

You'd be surprised at how bad the things you speak of are taught.  I have seen us not get outs several times because they cut the ball instead of letting it thru.