Youth pitcher

Well, he can certainly get a lot of kids out and make his parents proud with those pitches at that age!!

How you throw, how hard you throw, and how often you throw are the main contributors to arm injury.  Throw in some genetic predisposition and you have a very complicated issue.

We can't really point at any one factor and call it the smoking gun.  Some guys throw with "great" mechanics and still have arm issues.  Some guys break down at half the innings other guys throw without issue.  Some guys throw with mechanics that make you cringe - but never have any problems.

As for a slider - yea, I wouldn't want a younger kid throwing that.  It's the only pitch that makes my elbow hurt when I throw it - so that's enough anecdotal evidence for me.

I had a conversation one time in the stands of a 13U travel game.  The dad told me straight faced that he didn't want his son to hurt his elbow throwing a curve - so he taught him a slider instead.  

For some, like my son, the natural arm slot doesn't allow for a curve, it comes out more like a slider.  It depends what they are doing to get that motion though and how often the coach is calling for that pitch.

I agree there are many factors, but I know kid who pitched who never had velocity. His fastball was straight and slow. He started out learning the fastball and a circle change. But, by 11, he was relying on a good curve and a slider that was un-hittable when he was on. He only showed his fastball out of the zone. One day, still 11 years old, he threw a pitch and his arm hurt. Chipped the end of bone near the elbow. Had to have a surgery with a pin to reattach.

He came back and resumed pitching but had to have a second surgery while in high school. Came back after the second surgery and resumed pitching. Finished out his senior year and a summer with the Legion team. Still relied on the slider. Fastball topped out in the high 70's.

On the other hand, the hardest thrower that I remember from the youth ball days had TJ his senior year of high school. So, who knows.

The slider is by far the toughest pitch on the arm at any level, particularly the youth level. Typically, it is throw with poor mechanics, which elevates the potential for harm. Several competent studies have shown that the curveball, thrown properly, is actually less stressful than the fastball.

The #1 overall culprit for youth arm injury is the volume of pitches at max effort. Add a slider to the mix & you are virtually assured of disaster. Suggest they pitch at 85%. The mechanics are smoother, cleaner & less stress on the arm. The ball typically comes out of the hand better & the velo is going to be about the same with better command.

The kids that throw the best have the best chance for arm surgery.  Kids that throw the best usually throw the most at the younger ages.  The best arms, the best pitchers are very easy to pick out.  Then they often are abused in the interest of winning.  It is a dangerous cycle.  I'd like to see youth coaches use their best arms as little as possible.  Let them learn the game mostly as a position player and use them sparingly for pitching.  No they wouldn't win as many games, but that kid might have a lot brighter future.  There is a risk involved every time someone pitches.  There is a point when that risk just isn't worth taking.  You're not a good Little League coach just because you win championships. In fact, it's possible you are a terrible coach if you're abusing young kids that can pitch just to win games.

PGStaff posted:

The kids that throw the best have the best chance for arm surgery.  Kids that throw the best usually throw the most at the younger ages.  The best arms, the best pitchers are very easy to pick out.  Then they often are abused in the interest of winning.  It is a dangerous cycle.  I'd like to see youth coaches use their best arms as little as possible.  Let them learn the game mostly as a position player and use them sparingly for pitching.  No they wouldn't win as many games, but that kid might have a lot brighter future.  There is a risk involved every time someone pitches.  There is a point when that risk just isn't worth taking.  You're not a good Little League coach just because you win championships. In fact, it's possible you are a terrible coach if you're abusing young kids that can pitch just to win games.

That should be required reading before anyone is ever allowed to coach!

it is starting to seem like every town and every high school program has a teenager or two who has had Tommy John surgery.  Crazy!

Absolutely no question 100% correct in all that PG relates. The best arms get burned by well intentioned parents / coaches who want to chase plastic trophies on the weekends. Everyone wants to win & the kid is throwing extremely well....until he pops his elbow because he is throwing in his 3rd game of the weekend on Sunday after playing short in the games he did not pitch. It is just incredible. Remember this. Just because the player may still have innings left under the tournament rules, does not mean it is necessarily the correct decision to pitch, especially back to back days early in the season.

+1 for Rob T and PGStaff

Also, this study from American Sports Medicine Institute (referenced in the attached article) included 476 pitchers ages 9 to 14 years. An interesting finding:

“Overall, only the slider was found to have a significant relationship to elbow pain, and this relationship was especially strong among 13- to 14-year-old pitchers (an odd ratio of 3.49). There was an overall 86% increased risk of elbow pain among slider users. Use of the curveball accounted for a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain, without variation by age group.”

https://www.drivelinebaseball....lative-elbow-stress/

Too many variables.  There are simply too many variables to point at one thing in youth pitchers.  Unless you have an overhand arm slot - guess what - you really don't throw a true curve ball.  Depending on how it's gripped, how it's thrown etc.  

Overuse is bad.  I'm not saying it isn't.  But pitch counts etc is not a "one size fits all" kind of thing.  Some kids are more physically mature at certain ages than other kids at the same age...that's normal.  

I will say that I think that the big difference - that no one seems to talk about - is actually pretty simple.  I think kids of younger and younger ages are being taught GREAT pitching mechanics.  Mechanics that allow their body to throw harder than their body can sometimes handle.  

I coached rec and a lot of travel ball.  I constantly had to talk to other coaches to make sure some of my kids weren't pitching at rec ball games during the week, then showing up on the weekend - saying they hadn't pitched.  I expected parents to do this and I even talked to my parents about it and many times got a blank look.

Or more common - Kid has pitching lessons on Monday night.  Rec practice / game on Wednesday night. Travel practice on Friday night. Travel games on Sat / Sun.  Really?  At the young ages they just want to PLAY BALL - so parents and coaches have to set limits and rules.  I was shocked, at least first, how little intervention I saw from parents / coaches when it came to pitching.  

MORE THROWING - less pitching.  And YES there is definitely a difference. 

And also there is many times more going on than meets the eye. I remember teaching my young travel pitchers (9-10 years old) something we called the "football" pitch.  They called it the "slip" pitch when I was a kid.  I looks and acts like a legit breaking ball on the short mound.  After one tournament game, a coach from the opposing team came up and proceeded to lecture me on how I was "Ruining kids arms" teaching them the curve.  My son just happened to be walking by and he had pitched the last two innings against this team.  

"Son, do you throw a curve ball?"

Kid:  "No Dad, I throw the football." (Looking at me like I was stupid - since I taught it to him.)  

Hold a baseball literally like you would a football when throwing a spiral.  Throw it, keeping the open end of the 'C' made with the thumb and pointer finger pointing to the sky the ENTIRE time.  No wrist or elbow rotation / pronation.  Literally - just LIKE throwing a spiral with a football.  The kid showed them.  The next year they showed up with all their kids throwing it.  Unfortunately for them, the first thing I do after showing kids how to throw that pitch is how to RECOGNIZE a breaking pitch and wait for it to break then hit it.

Natural arm slot - again my lowly opinion - is a BIG DEAL that almost no one talks about.  When I coached the LITTLE guys, I had them pick up a rock and throw it at a target.  How they NATURALLY throw it is their arm slot.  I was never a fan of the "reach back and pet the dog" or other tricks meant to promote an over the top arm slot, when most pitchers do NOT have a natural over the top arm slot to begin with.

Back when I pitched, I threw a 12-6 CB.  I remember days when my arm was sore (legion ball) and while it HURT to throw a FB, I could throw curve balls all day with zero pain.....as a real 12-6 is throw with the fingers / wrist - not the arm or elbow.  

Also many times we use "slider" or "Curve ball" to describe pitches that aren't.  I had a highly respected pitching coach teach me a slider when I was 17.  Everytime I threw it I felt a slight twinge in my elbow.  Door knob slider comes to mind - fortunately I learned hard lessons to NOT teach to my kid or others.  Pitches should not hurt when throwing them.

My lowly 2 cents

There was a kid who joined on our local team many years ago as a pitcher. But he complained to the coaches that his arm hurt. So, they never pitched him. Turns out his dad had him throwing 80 pitch bullpens at home. Eventually the dad got mad that the son wasn't being pitched, and pulled him off the team during the middle of a game.