Bobblehead
You are beginning to worry me---you need not play hockey to have hockey mentality---
I trust my son to tell me. He knows that he is just a call away from professional help. He was not your typical young man. Very disciplined and understood the importance of reavealing any pain or uncomfortablness.
Some kids don't have that hockey mentality as TR puts it.
Some kids don't have that hockey mentality as TR puts it.
Bobble
I am not talking about your son--I am talking about your thinking---
I am not talking about your son--I am talking about your thinking---
Tr you don't have to live north of the border either.
Just maybe my son had great professional coaching from a young age. The care we took was above and beyond. At 20 he and his teammates are still going strong. Take from that what you may. I probably know 100 plus pitchers in the US and Canada. Have followed many of them and some have arm issues at the age of 19-20. I do not know how they were trained but the dozen that I do know were trained properly. another dozen were trained under coaches thyat would do a great job. You are not the only one that has years of memmories. I had my son late in life and have been involved in sports years before he came along.
Just maybe my son had great professional coaching from a young age. The care we took was above and beyond. At 20 he and his teammates are still going strong. Take from that what you may. I probably know 100 plus pitchers in the US and Canada. Have followed many of them and some have arm issues at the age of 19-20. I do not know how they were trained but the dozen that I do know were trained properly. another dozen were trained under coaches thyat would do a great job. You are not the only one that has years of memmories. I had my son late in life and have been involved in sports years before he came along.
My thinking is unusual. Get expert advice from pro players/coaches. Read extensivly on the topic. Use a pitching related doctor who was a coach with the Teaxas Rangers and co author of the Pitcher's Edge"
Where did I go wrong ?
If someone is not reading the post it isn't me.
Where did I go wrong ?
If someone is not reading the post it isn't me.
regardless of when you teach the curve ball, the issue of arm injury's in my mind is over use.most kids aren't fortunate enough to be on a team with 3 or 4 studs and pitch every 3rd game or so. if they are winning they are pitching, in most cases anyway.when your running out of gas and the fb isn't working,and the cb is ? and let's face it for most kid's they want the ball. and unless you have a coach that know's about pitching, well we've all seen it happen.their are a lot of very good coaches here that wouldn't let this happen,there are even more out there somewhere that truly don't know any better. why chance it. just my opinion
quote:No, but strength is a very imprecise measurement of one's physical development. Yes they are correlated, but you're going to see ranges. Some "weak" kids will have closed growth plates and some "strong" kids will have open growth plates.
I agree that strength is an imprecise measurement of one's physical development...But at the very least it (strength) is measurable. In your opinion is guessing which year a kids growth plate will be fully closed more precise then measuring the amount of strength one has gained in relation to gauging ones physcial development (14-17)? How could a parent know when their kids growth plates are closed?(This is a real question, I dont know how to tell)
Pitcher18, welcome to HSBBW! You picked one of the topics that always seems to generate many opinions. I think there might be an article on the front of the site discussing CB.
Also one of our posters has a site that has several articles posted, including this one on CB. He's shared it before and I think it includes some good info including breaking down suggestions based on age.
http://gtathletic.com/curveballs_forkids.pdf
Good luck to your son in his season!
Also one of our posters has a site that has several articles posted, including this one on CB. He's shared it before and I think it includes some good info including breaking down suggestions based on age.
http://gtathletic.com/curveballs_forkids.pdf
Good luck to your son in his season!
quote:Originally posted by deemax:quote:No, but strength is a very imprecise measurement of one's physical development. Yes they are correlated, but you're going to see ranges. Some "weak" kids will have closed growth plates and some "strong" kids will have open growth plates.
I agree that strength is an imprecise measurement of one's physical development...But at the very least it (strength) is measurable. In your opinion is guessing which year a kids growth plate will be fully closed more precise then measuring the amount of strength one has gained in relation to gauging ones physcial development (14-17)? How could a parent know when their kids growth plates are closed?(This is a real question, I dont know how to tell)
That's why I think you should play it safe and wait until a guy is 16 or 17. By that time, most kids' growth plates will be closed.
That's the approach Trevor Hoffman's dad took.
quote:That's why I think you should play it safe and wait until a guy is 16 or 17. By that time, most kids' growth plates will be closed.
That's the approach Trevor Hoffman's dad took.
Trevor Hoffman was a college shortstop who was drafted as such by the Reds in 1989. He was a good shortstop with a howitzer for an arm who was forced into pitching after 2 years of not hitting in low A ball. I dont know Mr. Hoffman, but his approach to not throwing a breaking ball until a certain age probably had something to due with the fact that his son was a shortstop until he was 23.
Pitcher18,
I am also a freshman in high school. I started throwing a curve ball last year. The most important thing to remember about the curve is that it can be damaging when not thrown correctly. With my curve, I throw it like I would a football. I don't have to snap to get a good break on my curve. Stay away from the snapping. I love my curve ball, but I'm going to have to say that changing speeds is the most important. NO SNAP! Good luck to you and your son.
the lefty,
TSP4
I am also a freshman in high school. I started throwing a curve ball last year. The most important thing to remember about the curve is that it can be damaging when not thrown correctly. With my curve, I throw it like I would a football. I don't have to snap to get a good break on my curve. Stay away from the snapping. I love my curve ball, but I'm going to have to say that changing speeds is the most important. NO SNAP! Good luck to you and your son.
the lefty,
TSP4
I didn’t know there was a right age to throw a curve ball when I was growing up. I’m not even sure I had ever been told the correct age to throw a curveball when I took it upon myself to teach my son how to throw one when he was eleven. Like DeeMax admits that his 100 push ups may not be the only way to achieve success, I’m not saying the way I did it was right but it worked out fine for my son and if I had it to do over again I would approach it the same way. I’m sure you’re asking, “What does the father of a catcher know about a curve ball?” Well, here are some excerpts from a newspaper article written about my son’s curveball that I just happened to save: 
AUBURN - Josh Bell came to Auburn to be a catcher and swing the bat. But a nasty curveball that leaves hitters baffled proved too much for Tigers coaches to resist.
Auburn pitching coach Mark Fuller whistles softly as he describes the pitch that has propelled Bell into Auburn's starting rotation.
"That's God-given," Fuller said. "He came here with it. It's the best one I've been around. Other than Gregg Olson, it's probably the best one that's ever been here."
"I learned it from my dad when I was about 11 years old and have just been throwing it ever since," Bell said. "It started getting pretty good about my sophomore year in high school.
So what’s the best age? It probably depends on the physical maturity of the kid, the amount of use of his arm, the number of curveballs thrown, the motion he uses when he throws the curve ball and the condition of his arm (warmed and stretched) when he throws the curveball. I don’t think you can paint all this with a broad brush and come up with an age. If a parent and their son will communicate regularly on the condition of his arm during and after he throws you can get a good idea if you are developing a pitcher or destroying an arm.
AUBURN - Josh Bell came to Auburn to be a catcher and swing the bat. But a nasty curveball that leaves hitters baffled proved too much for Tigers coaches to resist.
Auburn pitching coach Mark Fuller whistles softly as he describes the pitch that has propelled Bell into Auburn's starting rotation.
"That's God-given," Fuller said. "He came here with it. It's the best one I've been around. Other than Gregg Olson, it's probably the best one that's ever been here."
"I learned it from my dad when I was about 11 years old and have just been throwing it ever since," Bell said. "It started getting pretty good about my sophomore year in high school.
So what’s the best age? It probably depends on the physical maturity of the kid, the amount of use of his arm, the number of curveballs thrown, the motion he uses when he throws the curve ball and the condition of his arm (warmed and stretched) when he throws the curveball. I don’t think you can paint all this with a broad brush and come up with an age. If a parent and their son will communicate regularly on the condition of his arm during and after he throws you can get a good idea if you are developing a pitcher or destroying an arm.
fungo
If my name was mentioned in the same sentence with Gregg Olson in reference to a curve ball I would be extremely flattered...
Good post
quote:"That's God-given," Fuller said. "He came here with it. It's the best one I've been around. Other than Gregg Olson, it's probably the best one that's ever been here."
If my name was mentioned in the same sentence with Gregg Olson in reference to a curve ball I would be extremely flattered...
Good post
First of all, an 11 year old pitcher should be working to master a fastball - 2 seam AND 4 seam. I have seen very few 11 year old pitchers who had total mastery over the most important pitch in baseball.
In my opinion the biggest problem with young pitchers is the mentality being constantly thrown upon them that the only good out is a STRIKEOUT. Parents may not admit it, but that is the primary reason that kid pitchers have an "arsenal" of 3 or 4 pitches in their bag.
This strikout mentality goes right on up through high school - you have pitchers trying to pitch to avoid contact - nibbling at corners and/or throwing 4 or 5 different types of breaking balls. This mentality is what leads to huge pitch counts and the inevitable arm problems.
For MOST pitchers, if they want to make it to a high level of baseball (college or pros) they must master the FASTBALL and a CHANGEUP. And I can tell you that the importance of throwing an effective changeup is completely lost on most parents of young pitchers. There are alot of good high school pitchers who have never learned to develop a straight changeup - they can throw a CB or slider, but they are lost when it comes to a changeup. The reason for this is becauase they don't have to throw a changeup in high school - they don't need it. Unfortunately they find out at the next level that good hitters can hit curveballs and they actually feast on hanging sliders.
I guarantee you that the single pitch most often taught at the college or pro level to young prospects is some sort of changeup.
To sum it up:
1. Young pitchers should work on mastering a fastball (this is the foundation of pitching).
2. Young pitchers should learn how to change speeds.
3. Young pitchers should learn the value of challenging hitters - pound the strike zone - pitch to each HALF of the plate instead of just the black part. Pitch up and down in the zone instead of just the corners.
4. Parents - de-emphasize strikeouts and emphasize the goal of getting outs period - no matter how they occur.
In my opinion the biggest problem with young pitchers is the mentality being constantly thrown upon them that the only good out is a STRIKEOUT. Parents may not admit it, but that is the primary reason that kid pitchers have an "arsenal" of 3 or 4 pitches in their bag.
This strikout mentality goes right on up through high school - you have pitchers trying to pitch to avoid contact - nibbling at corners and/or throwing 4 or 5 different types of breaking balls. This mentality is what leads to huge pitch counts and the inevitable arm problems.
For MOST pitchers, if they want to make it to a high level of baseball (college or pros) they must master the FASTBALL and a CHANGEUP. And I can tell you that the importance of throwing an effective changeup is completely lost on most parents of young pitchers. There are alot of good high school pitchers who have never learned to develop a straight changeup - they can throw a CB or slider, but they are lost when it comes to a changeup. The reason for this is becauase they don't have to throw a changeup in high school - they don't need it. Unfortunately they find out at the next level that good hitters can hit curveballs and they actually feast on hanging sliders.
I guarantee you that the single pitch most often taught at the college or pro level to young prospects is some sort of changeup.
To sum it up:
1. Young pitchers should work on mastering a fastball (this is the foundation of pitching).
2. Young pitchers should learn how to change speeds.
3. Young pitchers should learn the value of challenging hitters - pound the strike zone - pitch to each HALF of the plate instead of just the black part. Pitch up and down in the zone instead of just the corners.
4. Parents - de-emphasize strikeouts and emphasize the goal of getting outs period - no matter how they occur.
First of all, please don’t take this as anything more than what it is. Another way to look at things. Not necessarily my opinion either!
So often we get caught up in thinking the “only” important thing regarding young people who play baseball is development and injury prevention. In fact, that’s usually the way I think too.
However, much of the fun involved in playing baseball is competing and winning, no matter what the age might be. If all of youth baseball was about development alone, I wonder if we would have as many young people playing the game. Winning is fun at any age!
Teaching pitchers to get ground balls rather than strike outs, makes a lot of sense to me. But unless I’ve missed something, at the younger ages, it seems like all the top teams who win the most games have a pitcher who pretty much strikes everyone out. So the competitive part of pitching (winning) does have a lot to do with the number of strike outs a pitcher compiles in any given game.
Once again, I’m not arguing on behalf of this mentality, but I can see why it takes place and I’m not sure it’s all a bad thing. Most little league players will not play at a high level. Perhaps the development should sometimes be about the experience, competition, sportsmanship, and love for the game… rather than a factory for developing super athletes. Enjoying the game in other words and creating memories! Having fun!
Just another way to look at things! Something about a strict regimen with the purpose of developing a 12 year old into a college star or pro player, just seems to be a lot less fun than just playing the game. Regarding pitching and curveballs… IMO pitching is hard on the arm! If I were only interested in developing a pitcher and protecting his arm… He would not be pitching at all at 12 years old! No sense in using up the bullets that early!
While my opinion is the CB should not be thrown during the early years and I never allowed my kids to use it... But I think the jury is still somewhat out on that.
So often we get caught up in thinking the “only” important thing regarding young people who play baseball is development and injury prevention. In fact, that’s usually the way I think too.
However, much of the fun involved in playing baseball is competing and winning, no matter what the age might be. If all of youth baseball was about development alone, I wonder if we would have as many young people playing the game. Winning is fun at any age!
Teaching pitchers to get ground balls rather than strike outs, makes a lot of sense to me. But unless I’ve missed something, at the younger ages, it seems like all the top teams who win the most games have a pitcher who pretty much strikes everyone out. So the competitive part of pitching (winning) does have a lot to do with the number of strike outs a pitcher compiles in any given game.
Once again, I’m not arguing on behalf of this mentality, but I can see why it takes place and I’m not sure it’s all a bad thing. Most little league players will not play at a high level. Perhaps the development should sometimes be about the experience, competition, sportsmanship, and love for the game… rather than a factory for developing super athletes. Enjoying the game in other words and creating memories! Having fun!
Just another way to look at things! Something about a strict regimen with the purpose of developing a 12 year old into a college star or pro player, just seems to be a lot less fun than just playing the game. Regarding pitching and curveballs… IMO pitching is hard on the arm! If I were only interested in developing a pitcher and protecting his arm… He would not be pitching at all at 12 years old! No sense in using up the bullets that early!
While my opinion is the CB should not be thrown during the early years and I never allowed my kids to use it... But I think the jury is still somewhat out on that.
PG ...
I really like that thinking and as I look back on our son's baseball life, I wish sometimes we had taken it a little less seriously. It is unfortunate, IMHO, that "we" (not just our family) have gotten to the point that competing for a roster spot at a major D1 seems to be of more concern to the parents of a 'talented' 6 year old than going out and watching the kids play catch and swing the bat. Heck, we were guilty of that to a certain extent, as were several families we knew through little league. I am sure they felt that their sons were the next gift to MLB and everybody up the line was sitting around waiting for their son to get through school and become available. Unfortunately, the competitiveness in this game these days is not merely in the game on the field but involves getting the perfect scholarship to the perfect school, etc. This seems to have caused many people to overload their sons with training etc that the majority will never need as they will most likely not play beyond high school, if they get that far at all. And the fun of the game and the experiences and the memories are lost in the shuffle.
Our son is 24+ and has never thrown a curveball. He throws a 2 seam, a 4 seam, a MLB level slider, and has just gotten to the point where he knows he can throw his change up, which he has been working on for years, consistently for a strike. His slider leaves his hand in such a way that there is no stress put on his elbow and has been his out pitch for years. He is NOT a strike out king but rather keeps the batters off balance with the off speed pitches and is known to be a ground ball pitcher more than anything (it also helps keep the defense in the game !!!) He has never wanted to take the risk of the curve ball and altho he may try it eventually, he is happy with his current 'arsenal' and hopes it carries him to the next level.
quote:Perhaps the development should sometimes be about the experience, competition, sportsmanship, and love for the game… rather than a factory for developing super athletes. Enjoying the game in other words and creating memories! Having fun!
I really like that thinking and as I look back on our son's baseball life, I wish sometimes we had taken it a little less seriously. It is unfortunate, IMHO, that "we" (not just our family) have gotten to the point that competing for a roster spot at a major D1 seems to be of more concern to the parents of a 'talented' 6 year old than going out and watching the kids play catch and swing the bat. Heck, we were guilty of that to a certain extent, as were several families we knew through little league. I am sure they felt that their sons were the next gift to MLB and everybody up the line was sitting around waiting for their son to get through school and become available. Unfortunately, the competitiveness in this game these days is not merely in the game on the field but involves getting the perfect scholarship to the perfect school, etc. This seems to have caused many people to overload their sons with training etc that the majority will never need as they will most likely not play beyond high school, if they get that far at all. And the fun of the game and the experiences and the memories are lost in the shuffle.
Our son is 24+ and has never thrown a curveball. He throws a 2 seam, a 4 seam, a MLB level slider, and has just gotten to the point where he knows he can throw his change up, which he has been working on for years, consistently for a strike. His slider leaves his hand in such a way that there is no stress put on his elbow and has been his out pitch for years. He is NOT a strike out king but rather keeps the batters off balance with the off speed pitches and is known to be a ground ball pitcher more than anything (it also helps keep the defense in the game !!!) He has never wanted to take the risk of the curve ball and altho he may try it eventually, he is happy with his current 'arsenal' and hopes it carries him to the next level.
Fungo nice article.
No matter how many success stories out there people will not listen.
I was not knowledgeable about CB so I went and did my DUE DILIGENCE. I listened to experts. My oldest daughter's exfiancee was ahigh level pitcher who was heavily scouted until he was injured. Before anyone licks their lips it was due to a leg injury while batting. He spent hours showing my son pitches and actually showed him the LL CB. The intent of the pitch was to reduce stress on the arm and shoulder. As the one poster said "stay away from the snap" untill you are older. If someone gets an arm injury it is automatically blamed on CB.
PG is right that at 12 you probably should not be pitching at all. I don't agree that you cannot enjoy BB without winning.
Maybe if we did a study we would find we shouldn't walk or run because our knees only have so many bullets. Maybe we should stay locked up in our house but then the Radon gas will get you.
If you are going to play a sport there is risk so get real knowledge from experts before you start.
No matter how many success stories out there people will not listen.
I was not knowledgeable about CB so I went and did my DUE DILIGENCE. I listened to experts. My oldest daughter's exfiancee was ahigh level pitcher who was heavily scouted until he was injured. Before anyone licks their lips it was due to a leg injury while batting. He spent hours showing my son pitches and actually showed him the LL CB. The intent of the pitch was to reduce stress on the arm and shoulder. As the one poster said "stay away from the snap" untill you are older. If someone gets an arm injury it is automatically blamed on CB.
PG is right that at 12 you probably should not be pitching at all. I don't agree that you cannot enjoy BB without winning.
Maybe if we did a study we would find we shouldn't walk or run because our knees only have so many bullets. Maybe we should stay locked up in our house but then the Radon gas will get you.
If you are going to play a sport there is risk so get real knowledge from experts before you start.
Bobblehead ...
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and we all respect that here, I am sure. However, just as you have your opinions, and have done your research, so too have many of the rest of us.
I think a lot of us have gone with our gut feelings when it comes to whether or not we wanted our sons introduced to the curveball at an early age, and many of us have had 'our experts' recommend against it. To me, it is much like a trial where each side has their expert witnesses, all of whom seem to have the right answers even tho they may be contradictory.
We can all find someone who supports our position, and it appears to be the case in this thread as well. Personally, we were content being safe rather than sorry from our perspective and it has served our son well. As my dear old mom often says ... to each his own. (I never did understand what that meant but it sounds right here
)
JMHO FWIW
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and we all respect that here, I am sure. However, just as you have your opinions, and have done your research, so too have many of the rest of us.
I think a lot of us have gone with our gut feelings when it comes to whether or not we wanted our sons introduced to the curveball at an early age, and many of us have had 'our experts' recommend against it. To me, it is much like a trial where each side has their expert witnesses, all of whom seem to have the right answers even tho they may be contradictory.
We can all find someone who supports our position, and it appears to be the case in this thread as well. Personally, we were content being safe rather than sorry from our perspective and it has served our son well. As my dear old mom often says ... to each his own. (I never did understand what that meant but it sounds right here
JMHO FWIW
quote:I worry that he takes it all too seriously. But then I see how much fun he has striking out a batter with the curveball I taught him when he was 10, and I don't worry so much.
I would be more concerned if he didn't take it seriously.
FBM I respect your opinion and the fact that you admit it is a "GUT FEELING". You and your son were happy and that is what counts. I guess my position is aimed at the guys who want to throw CBs at a young age. The answer is that you can throw a CB safely at a young age but that you need proper training and that there are more than 1 way to throw a CB. Some are safe and others less risk free.
I always marvel at people who say that kids playing high level ball at a young age are not enjoying it. What are they doing to make those kids go through the brutality of it all ? Kids who aren't having fun quit. I have never seen these unhappy kids under brutal regimes of unscrupulous coaches who risk life and limb to win at all costs.
What I have seem is kids working their tail off to make a team and to keep playing. I have seen caring coaches who start by teaching a code of conduct and sportsmanship. Many helping needy families with their players fund raising and delivery food to those needy families. I just don't get people who think otherwise.
Sorry, I must tell this story… It is 100% true! I know this is off the original topic somewhat, but maybe it might mean something to someone.
Our youngest son loved baseball… Problem was, he wasn’t that good at it, but he had a lot of fun.
He was a member of a 13&U team that qualified for a World Series tournament in Colorado. The team took a bus and they were in Colorado for 9 days. That team played something like 9 games and did well. I couldn’t go (Work), but I was there to pick up my son when the bus returned.
His mom had talked to him every day that he was gone, but they never talked much about baseball. After son got in the car I asked him if he had a good time. He said, “Dad, that was fun, I had a blast and we did good”!
Then I asked him how he did. He said “I didn’t hardly play, just one AB and didn’t get to pitch” His answer kind of made me mad… thinking a team would have a kid somewhere for 9 games and he hardly got to play. But he was so hyped up about the whole thing, it calmed me down.
He really enjoyed that baseball trip! I think that trip was a big reason why he ended up being a good player.
Our youngest son loved baseball… Problem was, he wasn’t that good at it, but he had a lot of fun.
He was a member of a 13&U team that qualified for a World Series tournament in Colorado. The team took a bus and they were in Colorado for 9 days. That team played something like 9 games and did well. I couldn’t go (Work), but I was there to pick up my son when the bus returned.
His mom had talked to him every day that he was gone, but they never talked much about baseball. After son got in the car I asked him if he had a good time. He said, “Dad, that was fun, I had a blast and we did good”!
Then I asked him how he did. He said “I didn’t hardly play, just one AB and didn’t get to pitch” His answer kind of made me mad… thinking a team would have a kid somewhere for 9 games and he hardly got to play. But he was so hyped up about the whole thing, it calmed me down.
He really enjoyed that baseball trip! I think that trip was a big reason why he ended up being a good player.
I'm confused again.
I understand there are kids who throw a CB with natural ability and it becomes a useful pitch with little work and the body accepts it naturally. What I don't understand is why at a young age some parents push this CB mentality, work it to the max, and then use it only 10% of the time. If it comes natural so be it, if you spend a lot of time to learn something that you use 10% of the time why not take that time and work on FB location and change of speed that will be used 90% of the time.
When all is said and done and a pitcher gets to an age where location, location, location is the rule, and you have that mentality burned into your mind, then you take a little time and work that #3-4 pitch into your repotrair.
Besides the potential physical issues, I always taught my youth hitters to lay off the curve because #1, regardless of what they say in is not a consistent pitch in live youth games, and #2 many umps at that age do not recognize a good CB strike zone. Take the pitch, make him pitch from behind, take walks because walks kill, breed frustration, make him throw your pitch, and get in your opponents bullpen. That was my offensive philosophy, granted it may have burned us at times but statistically it was played out.
I understand there are kids who throw a CB with natural ability and it becomes a useful pitch with little work and the body accepts it naturally. What I don't understand is why at a young age some parents push this CB mentality, work it to the max, and then use it only 10% of the time. If it comes natural so be it, if you spend a lot of time to learn something that you use 10% of the time why not take that time and work on FB location and change of speed that will be used 90% of the time.
When all is said and done and a pitcher gets to an age where location, location, location is the rule, and you have that mentality burned into your mind, then you take a little time and work that #3-4 pitch into your repotrair.
Besides the potential physical issues, I always taught my youth hitters to lay off the curve because #1, regardless of what they say in is not a consistent pitch in live youth games, and #2 many umps at that age do not recognize a good CB strike zone. Take the pitch, make him pitch from behind, take walks because walks kill, breed frustration, make him throw your pitch, and get in your opponents bullpen. That was my offensive philosophy, granted it may have burned us at times but statistically it was played out.
PG I have seen this many times. Your guy didn't quit and went forward to be the best he could.
I myself have been so angry that if it were me my son would be out of BB. I always let my son decide what he wanted and I really had no say. This is a natural feeling for parents no matter how rational. I would suffer my son's rath if I ever complained or approached a coach about his playing.
Nice to see a kid get past the lack of play and go on to enjoy the game.
I myself have been so angry that if it were me my son would be out of BB. I always let my son decide what he wanted and I really had no say. This is a natural feeling for parents no matter how rational. I would suffer my son's rath if I ever complained or approached a coach about his playing.
Nice to see a kid get past the lack of play and go on to enjoy the game.
quote:Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
Bobblehead ...
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and we all respect that here, I am sure. However, just as you have your opinions, and have done your research, so too have many of the rest of us.
I think a lot of us have gone with our gut feelings when it comes to whether or not we wanted our sons introduced to the curveball at an early age, and many of us have had 'our experts' recommend against it. To me, it is much like a trial where each side has their expert witnesses, all of whom seem to have the right answers even tho they may be contradictory.
We can all find someone who supports our position, and it appears to be the case in this thread as well. Personally, we were content being safe rather than sorry from our perspective and it has served our son well. As my dear old mom often says ... to each his own. (I never did understand what that meant but it sounds right here
JMHO FWIW
This site is made up of opinions and experiences, I would never tell anyone what they should do for their son if there was the SLIGHTEST chance it could be harmful, and all pitchers are different. I just do not agree with advising anyone there is a safe way to teach the CB so he can rely on it at a EARLY age.
Bobblehead,
I asked a question and you gave me an answer. You did state that your son didn't have the velocity, so you allowed him to use the CB to be successful. I think you would tend to agree, the college game is MUCH different than HS, as you stated he does not rely on it that much now. If your son was successful with it, why does he not rely on it now?
The topic was about the "right age" for curveballs, some think there is never a right age, and some beleive there is. The use of the CB becomes troublesome when it is substituted for those pitches that may be safer for young arms and young pitchers and their coaches and folks love the W so much they often overlook what is best for young arms. I do beleive most young players want out of the game because they get hurt, not because they don't always rack up the W.
JMO
I agree with many here that if a young pitcher is taught the safe CU at an early age, he will not have the need to rely on the CB.
quote:the college game is MUCH different than HS, as you stated he does not rely on it that much now. If your son was successful with it, why does he not rely on it now?
TPM when did your son start calling his game ? If my son waives off a pitch he will be benched.
The college game is not much different than Elite ball other than he has been a closer. He is at 9.2 inns so far and got his 1st start yesterday which was less than stellar. He has given up 4 ers (3 in the last game) and 8 so. I have no idea what he is pitching like right now as far5 as CBs go. I donot interfere with his game.
TPM if you read my posts I acknowlege that other opinions are good but when someone asks the question an opinion is given that you don't agree with regardless of the opinion based on knowledge and not a parents gut feeling.
If I used gut feeling in my business I would be in court every day of the week.
TPM I never refer to HS BB. There were 24 teams in our district with some very good ball players. A few in the pros and minor leagues. Our pitchers were only allowed 12 outs (4 innings). He had a bad day if he didn't strike out 10 in 4. I never talk about HS BB and used no HS video when I was prospecting.
I know the coaches at college are trying to get his velocity up and I was told he has gained 4-5mph in game situation.
I also have a problem with the word "allowed". I never interfered. If he had an issue he would mention it to me but he never really did. His arm has been monitored closely from 14Yo. My wif operates with gut I operate on logic. Just the way I am.
I know the coaches at college are trying to get his velocity up and I was told he has gained 4-5mph in game situation.
I also have a problem with the word "allowed". I never interfered. If he had an issue he would mention it to me but he never really did. His arm has been monitored closely from 14Yo. My wif operates with gut I operate on logic. Just the way I am.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM when did your son start calling his game ?
Catchers/Pitchers at the C school call their own game. The philosophy being, you make a mistake, you take responsibility, you will then learn. Mine has made mistakes, but they are his, he has to own them.
You had mentioned your son didn't rely on the CB as he once did, but now you are not sure what he throws as you do not interfere. That's ok, most try not to interfere, but I find it somewhat strange that you can recall the slightest detail of games when your son was younger but have no idea what pitches he throws. Just an observation.
You have been adament that CB(LL style)is safe if taught properly. I am not familiar with LL CB vs. ML CB. Is this the version your son always used? Does this mean you never ALLOWED him to throw a ML curveball? If it has been, then actually if there is a difference, your son has not actually thrown many ML CB's? Am I correct or am I the only one confused.
You keep refering to the fact that your son has been monitored closely over the years. Why do you keep bringing that up, are you anticipating a problem, because he threw CB's or pitched too much? You also stated once he gets regular MRI's, is this normal for a person who has never had a problem?
But you don't know what pitches your son throws?
I admit I am confusing to understand at times, but you got me on some of your stuff.
TPM when did your son start calling his game ?
Catchers/Pitchers at the C school call their own game. The philosophy being, you make a mistake, you take responsibility, you will then learn. Mine has made mistakes, but they are his, he has to own them.
You had mentioned your son didn't rely on the CB as he once did, but now you are not sure what he throws as you do not interfere. That's ok, most try not to interfere, but I find it somewhat strange that you can recall the slightest detail of games when your son was younger but have no idea what pitches he throws. Just an observation.
You have been adament that CB(LL style)is safe if taught properly. I am not familiar with LL CB vs. ML CB. Is this the version your son always used? Does this mean you never ALLOWED him to throw a ML curveball? If it has been, then actually if there is a difference, your son has not actually thrown many ML CB's? Am I correct or am I the only one confused.
You keep refering to the fact that your son has been monitored closely over the years. Why do you keep bringing that up, are you anticipating a problem, because he threw CB's or pitched too much? You also stated once he gets regular MRI's, is this normal for a person who has never had a problem?
But you don't know what pitches your son throws?
I admit I am confusing to understand at times, but you got me on some of your stuff.
TPM you are confused.
I have never mentioned MRI. In fact I have posted the video of my son throwing a LL CB sevral times in threads you were involved in. My son has never needed an MRI because he has never had arm issues ever. We have discussed this before. I have a very good memory and can remember details back to rookie ball through to last summer.
Monitoring refers to limited use because he does not have a 90mph FB. The coach has been working on his FB which was expected and part of our long range plan. He was just told they are working him into the rotation and I assume on a tight liesh.
I have never seem my son pitch at college yet but will in a couple weeks. In the summer he used his FB a lot more than I was used to seeing. He still used the CB,CU and slider. He pitched aginst a 3 yr minor league slugger who he got out witha CB that hit the ground 2 feet in front of the plate. He still uses his CB but percentage wise a lot less. As a young guy probably 70% CBs. In the summer roughly 30%. Some games he hardly uses it.
Non of his college sophs call their own pitches with the catcher. He has been told no waive offs. Different coaching styles. It has nothing to do with son's capabilities or smarts. He is a Deans List student.
The L CB has no wrist snap the ML CB does. The LL CB is a slow loopy pitch and the ML CB is a sharp breaking ball at the front of the plate. He uses the ML CB taught to him at 15yo by the head pitching scout of the Blue Jays at the time. He still throws an occassional LL CB. I am not sure how his coach calls his pitches as to percentage. My son frankly won't discuss it. I have asked but he avoids it with general answers.
As to pitches I have stated before that he dealt with that. I dealt with mechanics. He has a great KB but his Elite coaches would not allow him to throw it. They wanted arm strength and the KB is pushed as opposed to thrown. He experiments with various grips.
I hope I have cleared up some of the confusion.
I have never mentioned MRI. In fact I have posted the video of my son throwing a LL CB sevral times in threads you were involved in. My son has never needed an MRI because he has never had arm issues ever. We have discussed this before. I have a very good memory and can remember details back to rookie ball through to last summer.
Monitoring refers to limited use because he does not have a 90mph FB. The coach has been working on his FB which was expected and part of our long range plan. He was just told they are working him into the rotation and I assume on a tight liesh.
I have never seem my son pitch at college yet but will in a couple weeks. In the summer he used his FB a lot more than I was used to seeing. He still used the CB,CU and slider. He pitched aginst a 3 yr minor league slugger who he got out witha CB that hit the ground 2 feet in front of the plate. He still uses his CB but percentage wise a lot less. As a young guy probably 70% CBs. In the summer roughly 30%. Some games he hardly uses it.
Non of his college sophs call their own pitches with the catcher. He has been told no waive offs. Different coaching styles. It has nothing to do with son's capabilities or smarts. He is a Deans List student.
The L CB has no wrist snap the ML CB does. The LL CB is a slow loopy pitch and the ML CB is a sharp breaking ball at the front of the plate. He uses the ML CB taught to him at 15yo by the head pitching scout of the Blue Jays at the time. He still throws an occassional LL CB. I am not sure how his coach calls his pitches as to percentage. My son frankly won't discuss it. I have asked but he avoids it with general answers.
As to pitches I have stated before that he dealt with that. I dealt with mechanics. He has a great KB but his Elite coaches would not allow him to throw it. They wanted arm strength and the KB is pushed as opposed to thrown. He experiments with various grips.
I hope I have cleared up some of the confusion.
PGStaff,
The experience you speak of with your son and his trip to CO is insightful and probably very accurate as to the opportunity for his becoming a good ball player. The very fact that you were able to remain calm and not infringe upon his good experience with your personal feelings is something many parents should attempt. Unfortunatley there are kids in all sports whose participation is made less enjoyable or miserable because a parent feels their kid is not being treated right. When a child is having a good time they will work harder and stay interested longer and time will give them a result. Parents that make participation a hardship usually find their kids moving on to something else. Your son was in good hands.
The experience you speak of with your son and his trip to CO is insightful and probably very accurate as to the opportunity for his becoming a good ball player. The very fact that you were able to remain calm and not infringe upon his good experience with your personal feelings is something many parents should attempt. Unfortunatley there are kids in all sports whose participation is made less enjoyable or miserable because a parent feels their kid is not being treated right. When a child is having a good time they will work harder and stay interested longer and time will give them a result. Parents that make participation a hardship usually find their kids moving on to something else. Your son was in good hands.
Posted November 19, 2006 12:50 PM by BobbleheadDoll
The big thing I find is that most of you who do not allow CBs think that you cannot develope a decent FB. That is totally incorrect. My son LT and trained just like the guys who only threw FB.
The knuckle CB is a great pitch and his one elite team owners would not let him use it because it is a different throwing motion. I remember one game where he was throwing a KB and the owner ran down to the dougout and blasted the coach. My son was 15 and it was a great pitch. The owners argument was that he wouldn't develop his FB. To the coach is was not true since all the pitchers went through an aggressive throwing program. He probably threw more LT than any other pitcher on the team. He often did the full workout at every game even prior to his game which followed the 1st game.
If you looked at the clip you can save it to your desktop and enlage it so that you can see thyere is no stress on his arm.
The CB that he was taught at 16 is a late breaking CB with a much greater stress on the arm. It has that tomahawk motion and is much harder to hit. I would not allow him to throw that before he was 16-17. It was taught to him by the head pitching scout from the Jays over a 4 week instructional class.
He still mixes in the old CB and it works even against college guys. It is great for setting up double plays since most hitters top the ball if they make any contact at all.
----------------------------------------------------
I must be confused about the MRI.
But the above statment and some of your other posts confuse me.
You stated in the beginning of this thread that your son has been throwing CB's for 10-11 years, but when taught the late breaking CB, you wouldn't allow him to throw it before 16. Obviously you allowed your son to throw the LL CB because it was not harmful, right. You did not allow your son to throw the ML CB because it was harmful. You also stated that you have a problem with the word "allowed". When mentioning monitoring your sons arm closely, sounded if it was for medical reasons. Since it's not, mine has been monitored too, along with many, many other young pitchers.
As far as I am concerned, you are no different than most parents of pitchers. You do realize that throwing the CB early might be harmful.
Mine had a great KB too, he was not ALLOWED to use it. We interfered I guess.
You also stated that your son 10-14 used FB (sparingly), CB and CU were dominating. LLCB you meant correct, the one that doesn't hurt your arm?
Do you see how this can be confusing to a new parent reading? Or even an old timer?
I have friends whose sons play all levels of college baseball, I have never heard anyone say it is on par to elite ball or even HS ball. I am not understanding that statment.
You asked me if son called his own pitches, I answered, I am not understanding why you needed to bring up your son's intelligance. Did I elude to the fact that he was not smart? What did that have to do with it? You are correct, different philosophies and different coaching styles. I am not sure why you asked that in the first place, did it have anything to do with this topic?
Enjoy watching your sons game! I hope you get to see him pitch.
The big thing I find is that most of you who do not allow CBs think that you cannot develope a decent FB. That is totally incorrect. My son LT and trained just like the guys who only threw FB.
The knuckle CB is a great pitch and his one elite team owners would not let him use it because it is a different throwing motion. I remember one game where he was throwing a KB and the owner ran down to the dougout and blasted the coach. My son was 15 and it was a great pitch. The owners argument was that he wouldn't develop his FB. To the coach is was not true since all the pitchers went through an aggressive throwing program. He probably threw more LT than any other pitcher on the team. He often did the full workout at every game even prior to his game which followed the 1st game.
If you looked at the clip you can save it to your desktop and enlage it so that you can see thyere is no stress on his arm.
The CB that he was taught at 16 is a late breaking CB with a much greater stress on the arm. It has that tomahawk motion and is much harder to hit. I would not allow him to throw that before he was 16-17. It was taught to him by the head pitching scout from the Jays over a 4 week instructional class.
He still mixes in the old CB and it works even against college guys. It is great for setting up double plays since most hitters top the ball if they make any contact at all.
----------------------------------------------------
I must be confused about the MRI
. But the above statment and some of your other posts confuse me.
You stated in the beginning of this thread that your son has been throwing CB's for 10-11 years, but when taught the late breaking CB, you wouldn't allow him to throw it before 16. Obviously you allowed your son to throw the LL CB because it was not harmful, right. You did not allow your son to throw the ML CB because it was harmful. You also stated that you have a problem with the word "allowed". When mentioning monitoring your sons arm closely, sounded if it was for medical reasons. Since it's not, mine has been monitored too, along with many, many other young pitchers.
As far as I am concerned, you are no different than most parents of pitchers. You do realize that throwing the CB early might be harmful.
Mine had a great KB too, he was not ALLOWED to use it. We interfered I guess.
You also stated that your son 10-14 used FB (sparingly), CB and CU were dominating. LLCB you meant correct, the one that doesn't hurt your arm?
Do you see how this can be confusing to a new parent reading? Or even an old timer?
I have friends whose sons play all levels of college baseball, I have never heard anyone say it is on par to elite ball or even HS ball. I am not understanding that statment.
You asked me if son called his own pitches, I answered, I am not understanding why you needed to bring up your son's intelligance. Did I elude to the fact that he was not smart? What did that have to do with it? You are correct, different philosophies and different coaching styles. I am not sure why you asked that in the first place, did it have anything to do with this topic?
Enjoy watching your sons game! I hope you get to see him pitch.
PCX,
I hear what you're saying about PG's story, but at that age, having spent gosh knows how much PG spent to send his kid that far for so long.. and one AB? That's just absolutely a ripoff by the coach. Are these coaches wanting to win so bad?
When I was 10 I had the privilege of playing football at Husky Stadium in Seattle. The PA announcer announced I was kicking off the big championship game! Problem is, I wasn't the kicker. I was a reserve tackle who never played despite a lopsided score. Ah, youth sports.
I hear what you're saying about PG's story, but at that age, having spent gosh knows how much PG spent to send his kid that far for so long.. and one AB? That's just absolutely a ripoff by the coach. Are these coaches wanting to win so bad?
When I was 10 I had the privilege of playing football at Husky Stadium in Seattle. The PA announcer announced I was kicking off the big championship game! Problem is, I wasn't the kicker. I was a reserve tackle who never played despite a lopsided score. Ah, youth sports.
Bum,
Things worked out fine. Our son ended up playing much more and much longer and in much more important games than the rest of those kids on that team.
Things worked out fine. Our son ended up playing much more and much longer and in much more important games than the rest of those kids on that team.
I honestly don't know if throwing a CB is damaging to a younger kid or not...but I do know that its effectiveness lessens in regard to hitters the older the player gets. If you have a 10 year old that can throw a devasting curve, yes, he will win alot of ballgames - very few 10 year olds can hit a good curveball - or even a "poor" curveball for that matter.
However, as the hitters get older - especially beyond HS - the effectiveness of a CB decreases. Although there are exceptions, the majority of good pitchers in HS and certainly beyond have a great FB - in movement, velocity, and the ability to locate it.
PG is right, however - if your 10 year old wants to have fun and enjoys striking kids out, by all means let him throw lots of curveballs. But I will tell you this - he could strike out just as many by being able to run his FB over both corners and moving it up and down in the zone. And THAT skill will serve him better as he grows up. I have seen alot of kids that can throw CB at young ages. I have seen relatively few below 12 years old that can truly run a FB over any part of the plate at will. It is easier just to throw a CB.
I must say I find it interesting to have PG mention about the "fun" aspect of the youth game when his organization has increasingly pushed the envelope of pushing the "competitive" aspect of the game to younger and younger ages each year. The nation wide ranking of players by his organization and the constant push to have younger and younger players "exposed" seems contradictory to the attitude that he espouses. I don't mean to citicize, I was just surprised to see PG advocate young players playing for the fun of it. I agree with him about that 100%.
However, as the hitters get older - especially beyond HS - the effectiveness of a CB decreases. Although there are exceptions, the majority of good pitchers in HS and certainly beyond have a great FB - in movement, velocity, and the ability to locate it.
PG is right, however - if your 10 year old wants to have fun and enjoys striking kids out, by all means let him throw lots of curveballs. But I will tell you this - he could strike out just as many by being able to run his FB over both corners and moving it up and down in the zone. And THAT skill will serve him better as he grows up. I have seen alot of kids that can throw CB at young ages. I have seen relatively few below 12 years old that can truly run a FB over any part of the plate at will. It is easier just to throw a CB.
I must say I find it interesting to have PG mention about the "fun" aspect of the youth game when his organization has increasingly pushed the envelope of pushing the "competitive" aspect of the game to younger and younger ages each year. The nation wide ranking of players by his organization and the constant push to have younger and younger players "exposed" seems contradictory to the attitude that he espouses. I don't mean to citicize, I was just surprised to see PG advocate young players playing for the fun of it. I agree with him about that 100%.
Bobbleheaddad,
I have been informed by son's catchersdad that as of yet (this year) the catchers/pitchers are not calling game but allowed to wipe off the pitch, but held REAL acountable if the mess up.
I have been informed by son's catchersdad
that as of yet (this year) the catchers/pitchers are not calling game but allowed to wipe off the pitch, but held REAL acountable if the mess up.quote:Quote by Crawdad... PG is right, however - if your 10 year old wants to have fun and enjoys striking kids out, by all means let him throw lots of curveballs.
Did I "ever" say that?
quote:I must say I find it interesting to have PG mention about the "fun" aspect of the youth game when his organization has increasingly pushed the envelope of pushing the "competitive" aspect of the game to younger and younger ages each year. The nation wide ranking of players by his organization and the constant push to have younger and younger players "exposed" seems contradictory to the attitude that he espouses. I don't mean to citicize, I was just surprised to see PG advocate young players playing for the fun of it. I agree with him about that 100%.
Playing any sport at any age has to include competition. That competition has to be part of the fun. I have ALWAYS advocated the "fun" aspect of baseball. You could go back and check past posts and find out that is a fairly consistent theme from this end. Fun does not have to mean ignoring what's going on in baseball.
I wish people would read exactly what others have written rather than come to conclusions based on something that was not written or just a sentence that was included in a larger message.
Kids can throw curveballs without hurting their arms if they use good mechanics/delivery to throw them.
The problem is that a lot of the time even older kids/young men have a hard time repeating good mechanics/delivery. That's was separates the prospects.
It's not the curveball that hurts arms, it's throwing improperly period. The curveball just makes the problem worse.
PG I love your concept about people actually reading what people write before they comment.
JMO
The problem is that a lot of the time even older kids/young men have a hard time repeating good mechanics/delivery. That's was separates the prospects.
It's not the curveball that hurts arms, it's throwing improperly period. The curveball just makes the problem worse.
PG I love your concept about people actually reading what people write before they comment.
JMO
TPM Last comment on the issue
I never allowed or dissallowed any type ofr pitch.
2 types of CB. LL and ML. My labels for the type of delivery.(NOT MECHANICS) Threw LL since 9 and ML since 15. Still throws both but not as frequently as in the early years. He has been working on his FB just like all the other pitchers. Same drills. He started weight training at 16-17. 1st year was light weights and has been increasing his weight load under proper guidance and has gained 18+ lbs and is filling out.
He was a junk ball pitcher most of his early years because of the high percentage of CBs CUs etc. He still threw a FB.
My son has never called his pitches. He would love to but the coaches woulfn't allow it. Pitches were called from the bench. I have never talked to a pitcher that has been allowed to call his pitches. My son has never waived off a pitch and is not allowed to at college.
When I see him in 2 weeks I will report back to you.
I never allowed or dissallowed any type ofr pitch.
2 types of CB. LL and ML. My labels for the type of delivery.(NOT MECHANICS) Threw LL since 9 and ML since 15. Still throws both but not as frequently as in the early years. He has been working on his FB just like all the other pitchers. Same drills. He started weight training at 16-17. 1st year was light weights and has been increasing his weight load under proper guidance and has gained 18+ lbs and is filling out.
He was a junk ball pitcher most of his early years because of the high percentage of CBs CUs etc. He still threw a FB.
My son has never called his pitches. He would love to but the coaches woulfn't allow it. Pitches were called from the bench. I have never talked to a pitcher that has been allowed to call his pitches. My son has never waived off a pitch and is not allowed to at college.
When I see him in 2 weeks I will report back to you.
PG - I re-read your posts and I stand by what I posted. Maybe I am not understanding what you were posting.
If I don't understand what your point(s) were then I stand corrected.
In any event, I agree with what I THINK you were advocating, I was just surprised that thoughts like that came from someone from Perfect Game - an organization which doesn't exactly espouse the "fun" part of the game but rather emphasizes the "business" part of advancing to higher levels beyond HS - and nothing wrong with that either.
If I don't understand what your point(s) were then I stand corrected.
In any event, I agree with what I THINK you were advocating, I was just surprised that thoughts like that came from someone from Perfect Game - an organization which doesn't exactly espouse the "fun" part of the game but rather emphasizes the "business" part of advancing to higher levels beyond HS - and nothing wrong with that either.
crawdad,
I don't think you meant anything bad. I sometimes get a bit too defensive. Also, I often reread what was written and realize I didn't exactly say what I meant. That means it was left up to someone else to interpret what I meant.
Anyway, I've always been a strong advocate of having "fun"! At every level, but especially in the youth levels.
I don't think you meant anything bad. I sometimes get a bit too defensive. Also, I often reread what was written and realize I didn't exactly say what I meant. That means it was left up to someone else to interpret what I meant.
Anyway, I've always been a strong advocate of having "fun"! At every level, but especially in the youth levels.