14 Year Old Throwing 85

Which hand does he throw with? I would follow simple guidelines for rest between starts, pitch counts and work with a qualified instructor from time to time to keep his mechanics effective and safe. He would likely have a bright future if he throws strikes, is not over used and enjoys the game.

MLR,

Welcome to HSBBW. You will find a number of opinions here. Enjoy them and have fun here. This site kept me very entertained while I was in KSA.

I couldn't say much about your son's velocity since I am no expert. From what I hear here, heat is good. And as Dad04 suggests, make sure the kid is getting qualified training from a profe$$ional if he wants to stay healthy.

I sent you a PM.

I have several friends who threw 85 at that age. The truth is non of them pitch anymore. A couple still play but their arms are toast. They also had big bats and play college ball but don't pitch anymore. Too many arm problems.
I have seen 16 yo olds throwing 92 but they played out of Detroit and not sure what happened to them. The coach was a pitcher for 15 years with Detroit.

my sons freshmen year i took him to a christmas camp it was just after his 15th birthday his best velo was 84. 84 85 for a 14 year old is quite good but as you will see when you search this site and others it's not as uncommon as you think. every year there seems to be kids that age throwing in the 90s. my son hit the 88 mark 2 months before his 17th bday and has now been to 89 with his sr yr looming. protect your sons arm don't let him abuse it or anyone else. try to get him the best help you can find, one more thing (this is the hard part) try and make him understand the gift he has and what it could bring him in the future

(1) Get a good quality pitching instructor;
(2) Listen to him;
(3) Make sure your son learns to throw a changeup; early flamethrowers sometimes rely on the velocity too much and don't develop other pitches;
(4) Easy on the breaking balls if he isn't finished growing;
(5) Allow time for his arm to simply unplug and rest every year, for an extended period of time.

The guys I knew didn't throw breaking balls . They were into over powering guys. Now they are out of pitching. If anything will kill an arm it is over throwing at a young age.
Most of the guys I knew were advanced for their age as well and the others caught up to them and they only had a couple pitches.

Is that a max velocity or a working velocity? Either way, there aren't many. If you remember Cody Thomson from Conejo Valley he's currently working at about that speed at 15yo. He was throwing about 83 to 84 most of the time during JV ball this past season. I didn't gun him so these are just guesses based on how he looked compared to our JV kids of the same age who I have gunned who all throw in the 78-82 range. My guess is Thomson can hit 86 or 87 max. He's a big kid but he really hasn't grown much since LL days though. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of our kids catch or pass him up as far as velocity in a couple years. They'll have a bit more work to catch up to him as a pitcher as he's a fairly polished pitcher as well as having good stuff.

Welcome to the HSBBW.

Just my opinion, but if you know that he has that velo than that means you have clocked him. I do not beleive that is always in a young pitchers best interest, but that is my opinion.
You said he was throwing, did you mean throwing or pitching at that velocity?
Most young pitchers I know who threw that velo no longer are pitchers because they do rely on that speed to get hitters out and tend to overthrow.

This, in my opinion, is a great time for him to work on developing his change up, use it to throw off timing rather than overpower.

I agree with TPM and others
Arms are still developing at this age.
Learn how to pitch, not just throw hard.
Be a pitcher not a thrower.
Your son is gifted to a point, you can't teach velocity.
But you can help with mechanics.

good luck.
EH

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He is currently throwing 84/85 mph

Such statements almost never come with any info on how the speed was measured.
Very rare for 14 year olds to hit 85 on a good gun. Maybe 1 in 200 pitchers that age can touch 85, to guess at a number on how many can do it.

We just had a youngster who could throw 85 (wild and straight). Moved up to varsity, he sat on the bench all season, while 75 mph guys with pinpoint accuracy and movement were heavily worked.

Still, 85mph is a pretty nifty "tool" for a 14 year old. More than enough to star in HS if other skills are there.

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You said he was throwing, did you mean throwing or pitching at that velocity?

Good question TPM.

I know it has been said on here many times that velocity is where it is at.

This is how my sons pitching instructor summed it up.

In little league, the throwers dominate.
In high school, the throwers dominate for the most part.
In college you are starting to get it evened out between the throwers and the pitchers. Maybe an edge for the throwers.
Even in the minors you will have a thrower or two who are pretty effective.
Once you get to the bigs, you better know how to pitch. A thrower does not last long at 96-97 if that is all he does.
Give me a guy upper 80's to 90 who can hit his spots and keep the hitter off balance and you have a career.

Point is, learn to pitch. Then if you can hit the low to mid 90's, that's a plus.

A couple questions:

You say you coached him in the LL World Series - was that on a Saudi Arabia team? What is your situation - is your son in Oregon playing this summer and you stayed back in S.A.?

Which team does he play for in central Oregon?

Sorry, but pitchers should not learn how to pitch instead of developing velocity nor should they focus on velocity and not learn how to pitch. However, if the goal is to play professional ball then generally the higher priority is velocity.

Pitchers with velocity will usually be given a chance to learn how to pitch while pitchers without velocity will seldom get a chance to develop the velocity.

Every pitcher is different, but as an example my 15yo locates his pitches fairly well anywhere in a range from 78 to 81 depending on how loose his shoulder is on a given day. He's got good movement so he's been more than effective at the JV level but in our league he probably won't make varsity next season unless he can add at least 3 or 4 mph, preferably 4 or 5 mph and develop better command of the change, and even that might not be enough. That's tough but there're 2 guys already throwing 87-90, one in the mid 80s and another one his age throwing 81-82 with decent location who has a lot of upside, as well as a couple others throwing near his speed at least one of whom is a better hitter and fielder, so he's not needed at the varsity level and he'll have to pass a couple of them up to get playing time at that level. If he only gains a couple mph and is working 82-83 he'll most likely spend next season dominating at the JV level because he just won't be throwing hard enough to take anyone else's spot. That is reality and the key factor is velocity.

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That is reality and the key factor is velocity.

...until somebody walks the bases loaded. At which time the kid learns to pitch some other time besides game time, and probably on his own. Getting outs and hanging zeros earns innngs. Above average velocity at each level is effective only with command and pitchability. Nobody earns innings with velocity alone.

I'll be the first to admit that a pitcher has to be able to throw strikes, but that's a given and from there on velocity is the key factor. A HS pitcher who locates at 70 mph just isn't going to get playing time in front of a kid who can throw the ball somewhere over the plate at 88+.

In our league if you aren't throwing mid 80s with reasonably good control and at least one good off speed pitch you aren't going to see many innings on the better teams. One team sent 3 pitchers to top D1s and will probably be stronger on the hill next season. One of the league's pitchers who had a less than stellar year was a 3rd round draft pick primarily because he was the league's hardest thrower. The kid who may have been the league's best pitcher threw mid to upper 80s but he was drafted in the 4th round as a position player because he didn't throw hard enough to generate any real interest as a pitcher.

At the age of 14 the need to show great velocity can bring about the arm problems----the velocity will come as the body matures---at 14 learn how to pitch and concentrate on solid mechanics

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you can't teach velocity.

This may be true about 95-100mph but you certainly can teach velocity. Most colleg guys gain at least 5-10 mph.

I have seen 15yo at MLB camps throwing 85. Yes it is uncommon but there are lots of them.
I know a couple that dominated at bantam and minor Midget but they tend to not last. A couple of them just had everyone catch up to them. Some think they have arrived and don't work as hard as the ones who need to get more velocity.
Almost all of them had arm problems. One guy was a closer at a D1 in Arkansas. He is one of the few I know that remains and he was RS 2 out of 4 years. TJ, bone chips /spurs on his elbow. A ML teamwas looking at him and tould him not to pitch another inning. He is going to be examined by their doc after the summer. This guy was always injured.
Learn to pitch and not just rely on velocity.

TR,
Good point. It isn't the age as much as the degree of physical development. Kids who are going through their growth spurt are particularly vulnerable to injuries and care should be taken to develop their capabilities while limiting injury risk as much as reasonably possible.

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Sorry, but pitchers should not learn how to pitch instead of developing velocity nor should they focus on velocity

He is 14-15.

And if I remember correctly a good sized kid, 5'6", 154 lbs, who was throwing as high as 75 at 12yo. Probably fairly physically mature at 14.

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Most colleg guys gain at least 5-10 mph.

Could you please explain this? During what period? How or why?

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Most college guys gain at least 5-10 mph.

I've seen no evidence of that. So these 85 mph D-1 guys on TV were throwing 78 when recruited?

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Dad04

MLR - Could you clarify something for me..

His height and weight?

How big are you?

I am trying to determine if he is just a big kid for his age, or matured early before I give an opinion.

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Originally posted by micdsguy:

quote:

Most college guys gain at least 5-10 mph.

I've seen no evidence of that. So these 85 mph D-1 guys on TV were throwing 78 when recruited?

Unless I'm missing something, other than coming back from an injury, the rare mechanical adjustment unleashing power or a long, long layoff, the kids are what they are for that period, imo. Players can increase velocity as they go futher. Trainers will tell you velocity peaks somewhere in the mid 20's. 18-20 in college the kids seem pretty static on the gun. These are mostly successful pitchers I've watched.

Now, now. Some of those 85 mph D1 guys were probably throwing 88 when they were recruited and are now pitching at 85 and the guys who were pitching 85 in HS are at D3s throwing 88.

We went round and round on this several months ago. My view is that pitching speed doesn't usually increase much after age 17. That's not what any of you WANT to hear, but I think it's true. There are a few exceptions. And a few GET SLOWER TOO

Q. How fast to be recruited by a D-1?
A. Upper 80s for a righty

Q. How fast is the average D-1 pitcher?
A Upper 80s for a righty

quote:

I've seen no evidence of that. So these 85 mph D-1 guys on TV were throwing 78 when recruited?

The most notable example is Jeff Francis. As I have stated he couldn't get a schlorship in the US with his 80mph FB. After 4 years at The University of British Columbia he was hitting 90+. The coordinator at UBC said he gained over 10 MPH in 4 years.

2002 1st Colorado LHP Jeff Francis North Delta, B.C. University of British Columbia $1.85 Million

My son has gained 4-5 mph in 2 years and almost every guy I know has gained 5-10 after 4 years.

The 15yo at A D1 is in the 90s and he was 87-88 as a freshman. He is the only 15yo throwing still who was hitting 85-86 back then. Some gain more than others for a lot of obvious reasons.

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The 15yo at A D1 is in the 90s and he was 87-88 as a freshman. He is the only 15yo throwing still who was hitting 85-86 back then

I would submit that 3-4 MPH gained over 5 years is more typical than 5-10 MPH. My son is a 6-2 RHP and was 84-86 at PG Underclass in Ft. Myers at 15. He is 88-91 at 21. That is typical velocity gained over similar time periods for players in the southern lower 48, based on what I have seen. 5-10 is the excepion, imo, but bless'em.

Cards LHP Mike Maroth, on the other hand was 83-85mph at UCF a few years ago. I watched him on TV last week. He is 84-86. He basicly gained nothing. 5-10 is anecdotal, imo.

I also submit that 3-5mph is more like it.
Mine was touching 91-92 going into college lived in the 87-89. This past year he was hitting 95 and living in the 91-92 zone. Gaining 5-10 is an exception not the general rule.

CADad,
Velo is very important but we are talking about a 14 YEAR OLD.

MLR, welcome to the HSBBW. Your son has the God given talent of velocity. Velocity is probably the most admired and discussed trait in baseball. Let me warn you ---- if you choose to talk velocity with another parent of a son that has a lower velocity, the conversations may be diverted to the importance of location, deception, off speed, and so forth. You will start to believe that velocity is akin to a curse and you will be told that most high velocity players usually end up destroying their arm and are forced to play something like ping pong. Your son is no different than the others players on his team or any other team for that matter when it comes to arm care. He (and you) needs to understand what overuse is and the both of you need to protect his arm from overuse. Many lower velocity pitchers are not subjected to the overuse because they are not called on as often as the pitcher with the “heater”. Your son needs quality instructions to learn the proper techniques associated with pitching if he decides to pitch. Even if he doesn’t pitch he still needs a good throwing program to keep his arm strong and healthy. My son was a hard thrower (a little harder than your son at 14 years old) and never had any arm problems, he doesn’t play ping pong, and he continues to play at age 23. Since my son’s velocity was higher than yours I’m sure your son has better movement and location.
Fungo

Fungo,
Good post and good point, most hard throwing pitchers often get overused.
It is very important that those particular players are watched carefully.

It isn't what velocity he is now throwing that is important. It is what he will be throwing in a few years.

I have seen freshmen throwing in the high 80's, low 90's who lost velocity by the time they were juniors and seniors. Why? Who knows for sure. Perhaps overuse. Perhaps overthrowing.

Make sure he works with a good pitching coach & don't get too excited yet.

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It isn't what velocity he is now throwing that is important. It is what he will be throwing in a few years.

Why is his ability unimportant at age 14?

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don't get too excited yet

When are parents allowed to get excited? Only after their son reaches the MLB HOF? I see it differently. I was excited when mine were born. I was excited when he rolled a ball across the floor too 1/16 mph.

Okay, fungo, I'll be more specific just for you.

Don't set unrealistic expectations based on what is happening at 14YO. I've seen kids lose velocity, as previously mentioned. I've seen others who were "early bloomers" and never gained any significant speed.

And yes, others continued to pick up velocity. I've seen 14YO's who were throwing 73 at 14YO reach 88 before they turned 17YO.

I have yet to see anyone reliably predict what speed a 14YO will be throwing when he hits 17 or 18YO. Thus it is unwise to set future expectations, IMHO.

At 14YO, velocity is not the most important thing, IMHO. It is nice. So long as the pitcher is still working on command of his fastballs and c/u. And working on learning pitch selection, strategy and mental toughness. And hopefully having some fun.

Perhaps this has added some clarity, at the expense of brevity.

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When are parents allowed to get excited?

Great question. Parents ought to get excited when the child is born as suggested and remain excited imho

It's when people try to get me excited about their kids that I become skeptical. I must admit, the more time I have spent here as a member, the more skeptical I have become.

Last year, a guy came on here posting from Montana saying his kid threw 98 mph. When PG inquired about his identity, we never heard from him again.

Many kids have been hyped on here as major D1 prospects or sure-fire draft prospects and almost in every case, it has not happened or much less has happened.

What does all that have to do with this thread?

Until Fungo posted that his 14 year old threw a little harder than the posted numbers, I was skeptical. I guess if a kid can throw in the 90's as a high school senior, it makes sense they could also throw mid 80's when they were 14. As PG estimated in another thread, there may be 200 or 300 high school players (not sure if that is only seniors?) in the country who can throw in the 90's. Given there are approximately 130,000 senior boys, that equates to 300/130,000 or .23% which is a pretty small number indeed. If the number of 300 is for all high school players, then the percentages are even smaller. Either way, I think good advice about arm care has been given in this thread.

MLR please forgive me for my skepticism and welcome to the hsbbweb indeed Your son sounds like quite the player.

MLR,

Tell your kid to concentrate on being in the best shape he can be all the time - and on playing the game with passion. Every single second he is on the field.
That is - IMO - the best advice you can give him.
The projection stuff is usually **** - and is wrong more often than it is right. The only thing that matters is the next play.

If your son does well on the next play - get excited. That is alot of fun when that happens. If someone tells you not to be excited - run far away from them - quickly. LOL

If he doesnt do well on the next play - you can be sad. If someone tells you not to be sad - run real fast again. LOL

It is in the game.

I have no idea what velocity my son has. Should the best approach be good mechanics - good location - hit your spots - get the outs. Develop velocity as bodies mature and put on muscle?

I do know he pitched 3 pitches and got got three out in one inning last night. It is common for him to have 10 or less pitches per inning. I figure if he keeps this up at each new level of competition (and so far he has), then we are on the right track.

We are beginning to see how important a good catcher is too.

TPM,
What part of "...nor should they focus on velocity and not learn how to pitch." did you not get? Pitchers gain velocity beyond what just comes naturally by throwing hard whether that comes on the mound, from long toss, or from overload/underload. Pitchers who only focus on control typically don't gain the velocity they need to advance. Pitchers who only focus on velocity typically don't get the command they need to advance. However, the pitchers who throw harder in the long run are the ones who get drafted in the earlier rounds. After that it comes down to getting people out and in the minors they'll typically teach them to take some velocity off the fastball to improve their command.

People take sides of the velocity vs control argument but the reality is that pitchers need to work on both to advance. If a kid needs to focus on velocity to make the team or get playing time that's what you focus on. If he needs better command or an off speed pitch that's what you focus on. There's no one approach that's right all the time. Right now mine has good location and movement and he needs to work on velocity to advance. That doesn't mean we won't be having him work on the change and improving his control at the same time. Our typical off season pens have always been working on command, followed by working on one off speed pitch, then throwing to simulated batters and we finish off with about 10 pitches thrown for velocity with the goal of being somewhere around the strike zone rather than locating. That tied together with long toss is enough to help develop velocity and command and it is safe as long as you don't overdo it.

BTW, not hard to figure that the R in MLR, probably the dad's initials, most likely stands for Robinette especially as the kid has posted elsewhere that he hits 85/86.

Also, the kid from our area who was hitting those numbers and above at 14 was hitting mid 90s at 17 for a D1 this past season.