What should the numbers be for a 15 year old freshman pitcher. Just wondering where my potential (?) pitcher stands in comparison.
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What numbers are you referring to? ERA/Vel/K's/K's/BB, etc.
ERA, K's, BB's will be basically relative to the competition he pitches against. Hard to compare that with someone else if one is playing at a major or elite level and another is playing at a AA level.
In terms of velocity, not real sure what the norm or average is, but my son is a 15 yr old freshman as well. He is throwing 80-82 fastball, 73-74 slider and a 68 change up.
In terms of velocity, not real sure what the norm or average is, but my son is a 15 yr old freshman as well. He is throwing 80-82 fastball, 73-74 slider and a 68 change up.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
He is throwing 80-82 fastball, 73-74 slider and a 68 change up.
Nice! That's actually above average, based on my experience. I was throwing 78-79 as a HS frosh -- and that was a bit higher than most other kids my age.
I'd say if you're just looking at a pure velocity comparison, low to mid-70's mph is about avg for a high school freshman pitcher.
Thanks Steve. That was this fall - around mid-October. Used a jugs gun (I know they supposedly read a little fast). Started the game in the first inning throwing 78-79. His last two pitches were 81-82 (72nd and 73rd pitch of the game). Hoping he will pick it up a little more by the time the HS season starts. He has been doing speed and agility training and wieght lifting with the HS team starting in November. He is 5'8" 145 lbs. Hopefully he'll have his growth spurt sometime during HS as well. He'll also be getting instruction during Dec and Jan. We'll see how his season goes.
That sounds excellent! Nothing but great things ahead, I'm sure :-)
OK you asked.....here come the stats off my son's Freshmen team last year - 22 games. SoCal pretty competitive league. These are team totals. If you PM me I will send you the details by pitcher.(A,B,C)
IP - 148
B- 1030
S- 1463
Hits - 131
BB-77
HBP-15
K-142
K/IP-.96
TP-2493
API-16.8
K/BB-1.8
ERA-3.02
WHIP-1.4
BA/Pit 0.227
%S- .587
The top pitchers were (Stalker) 70-75, Ave pitcher 68. Fastest 78
There is a thread around here that has all kinds of velocities. In general- 70 Freshmen, 75 JV, 80 Vars.
BTW there is tremendous variation in growth/age as Freshmen Vel. almost does not matter. What really matters is how well he is pitching as a Sr (as well as his velocity
)
Oh yeah almost forgot the HSBBW pitching rule #1. Vel=(ask dad)-7
Hope he has a great season!
IP - 148
B- 1030
S- 1463
Hits - 131
BB-77
HBP-15
K-142
K/IP-.96
TP-2493
API-16.8
K/BB-1.8
ERA-3.02
WHIP-1.4
BA/Pit 0.227
%S- .587
The top pitchers were (Stalker) 70-75, Ave pitcher 68. Fastest 78
There is a thread around here that has all kinds of velocities. In general- 70 Freshmen, 75 JV, 80 Vars.
BTW there is tremendous variation in growth/age as Freshmen Vel. almost does not matter. What really matters is how well he is pitching as a Sr (as well as his velocity
) Oh yeah almost forgot the HSBBW pitching rule #1. Vel=(ask dad)-7
Hope he has a great season!
quote:Oh yeah almost forgot the HSBBW pitching rule #1. Vel=(ask dad)-7
Might be true for a lot if they are just guestimating. Mine are honest on a Jugs. Other stats from last yr. - 72 innings pitched, 97 strike outs, 29 walks, opponents BA-.217, ERA-3.16. Don't have all the others you have BOF. He played a USSSA major schedule and was the top pitcher on the staff so he pitched against the toughest teams we faced.
Gonna sit out now. Just had to say something about the "-7" rule.
Low 80's as a freshman projects to at least low 90's as a senior- with good control, thats D1 material.
Well, maybe.
I have seen low 80's frosh end up as 90+ seniors.
I have also seen low 80's frosh end up as low 80's seniors.
Depends on how close you are to your physical ceiling (since we all grow physically at our own rates), how hard you apply yourself to mechanics and conditioning, do you stay healthy, etc.
Either way, the numbers are solid enough to have a solid HS experience if you have command and an idea of how to approach hitters. College ball is definitely something you could legitimately aim for, possibly at a high level depending on how things come along the next few years.
I have seen low 80's frosh end up as 90+ seniors.
I have also seen low 80's frosh end up as low 80's seniors.
Depends on how close you are to your physical ceiling (since we all grow physically at our own rates), how hard you apply yourself to mechanics and conditioning, do you stay healthy, etc.
Either way, the numbers are solid enough to have a solid HS experience if you have command and an idea of how to approach hitters. College ball is definitely something you could legitimately aim for, possibly at a high level depending on how things come along the next few years.
I just cam across this thread and started reading. I'm not a big fan of the slider for hs pitchers, let alone freshman. This pitch puts allot of stress on a young and still developing arm. I feel this pitch can be better saved for later in their young careers. Anyone else have similar or different thoughts on this?
quote:Originally posted by Gamer:
I just cam across this thread and started reading. I'm not a big fan of the slider for hs pitchers, let alone freshman. This pitch puts allot of stress on a young and still developing arm. I feel this pitch can be better saved for later in their young careers. Anyone else have similar or different thoughts on this?
Agree, slider should be developed in college. FB, CU, CB is all you need....and if you can't throw it for a strike in any count it is not a pitch.
Midlo Dad, I agree. What he is throwing now gives no indication what he will be throwing when he is a senior. It's nice to think about what could be, but no reason to assume anything. We'll just keep working on his game and see what happens.
BOF & Gamer, He has been throwing this pitch since he was 12. I have had a number of baseball people, including his instructor watch him throw it and approve before I let him do it. He has a low 3/4 arm slot and basically holds the ball off center and throws it like a fastball. His instructor always called it a cutter, but when it is working, it moves more like a hard slider - down and away from a righty (RHP). He has never had arm problems (not to say he won't) and we closely monitor his pitch count and fatigue when he is pitching.
Hate for this thread to revolve around this issue. Original poster wanted to get a feel for other 15 yr old freshman pitchers. I started by stating what my son was doing. Would really like to hear from others what their son is doing or did as a freshman. I am curious as well.
BOF & Gamer, He has been throwing this pitch since he was 12. I have had a number of baseball people, including his instructor watch him throw it and approve before I let him do it. He has a low 3/4 arm slot and basically holds the ball off center and throws it like a fastball. His instructor always called it a cutter, but when it is working, it moves more like a hard slider - down and away from a righty (RHP). He has never had arm problems (not to say he won't) and we closely monitor his pitch count and fatigue when he is pitching.
Hate for this thread to revolve around this issue. Original poster wanted to get a feel for other 15 yr old freshman pitchers. I started by stating what my son was doing. Would really like to hear from others what their son is doing or did as a freshman. I am curious as well.
Freshman son (turning 15 in April) gunned on a Stalker this fall was throwing FB at 75, cutter at 67, and CB at 62. His cutter sounds similar to what bballman's son throws...off-center 4-seam grip with his middle finger near the end of the horseshoe seam. Thrown like his FB at low 3/4 release, it produces good late movement with no arm problems (knock on wood).
Excellent post Midlo
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I have seen low 80's frosh end up as 90+ seniors.
I have also seen low 80's frosh end up as low 80's seniors.
Excellent point.
For a variety reasons, I see a lot of guys get stuck at 82 or 83. This seems like a hard level to push through without significant work and some luck due to good genetics.
In many cases, this is just where they top out.
If hes 5'8'' and 145 as a freshman, he is going to get bigger and increase velocity. If you're throwing low 80s as a 6'2'', 200 pound freshman, you probably are going to get stuck.
quote:Posted December 12, 2008 10:28 AM Hide Post
If hes 5'8'' and 145 as a freshman, he is going to get bigger and increase velocity. If you're throwing low 80s as a 6'2'', 200 pound freshman, you probably are going to get stuck.
What??? TCW, as a 2012, careful how you predict what is going to happen to someone else - pitching, or otherwise. It will be much easier for you to look back four years from now, after varsity time, and see what happens. It would be shame for anyone as a freshman to "get stuck"
I grade skipped, so I'm a year behind physically. Last year as I freshman, I was hitting low 70's. Maybe not even that. This summer (Between FR-SO) I got clocked at 77, and I know that I'm throwing much harder now. It's too early for anyone to know how they're going to be in the future.
-----------------------------
Freshman- 5'10" 132 lbs.
Sophomore (currently)- 5'11" 160 lbs.
------------------------------
^ That might have something to do with it. The doctor also said I still haven't had my growth spurt yet
.
-----------------------------
Freshman- 5'10" 132 lbs.
Sophomore (currently)- 5'11" 160 lbs.
------------------------------
^ That might have something to do with it. The doctor also said I still haven't had my growth spurt yet
.
I was really responding to the original question of how low 80's as a freshman compares to other freshmen. Most people understand what most seniors throw, so I thought that was a good thing to measure against.
I am not saying all small freshmen who throw hard will grow up and throw low to mid 90s. That said, many do. But I am not saying all. I am not trying to predict how other people will end up. I know that there is no way to tell how someone will grow. But I know plenty of kids who were mid- level JVs as freshmen who hit a growth spurt and are now D1/D2 caliber players.
I am not saying all small freshmen who throw hard will grow up and throw low to mid 90s. That said, many do. But I am not saying all. I am not trying to predict how other people will end up. I know that there is no way to tell how someone will grow. But I know plenty of kids who were mid- level JVs as freshmen who hit a growth spurt and are now D1/D2 caliber players.
My son was a 15yo freshman with a May birthday last season. He was 5'11", 140. He threw 77/78 and touched 80. Now (this week) he's 6', 150 and throwing 80/touched 82 after not throwing for six weeks. He's projected by the pediatrician to be at least 6'2" (sister is 5'10"). He'd rather play infield than pitch.
This is my 1 of 1000 theory:
The odds of hitting and effectively pitching at 90 is 1/1000 due three "speed" barriers which all young pitchers seek to break through. Each one is progressively more difficult:
83-- The speed at which poor mechanics or work ethics limits one's progress. Short-arming the ball, losing interest, or poor work-ethics are the usual culprits. 90% of high school pitchers will never surpass 83. The top 10% of high school pitchers who surpass this level usually go on to Juco or DIII or higher.
87-- The speed at which fielders are separated from pitchers. We've all seen it: The guy throwing 90 from the outfield can only top 86-87 on the mound. Usually because if he tries to throw faster he loses control. Or because he has never developed a second or third pitch and is never given a chance. So it is not a matter of arm strength, even ability, it is a matter of command and pitcher development. Ok, you can hit 88. Can you throw strikes? Can you fool batters? Only 1% of high school pitchers will have a chance to pitch at a higher level (and higher speed).
90-- The speed at which genetics determines fate. Try as you might, this is rarified air. And if you can throw three pitches for strikes at this level, the world is your oyster. Only about 1 out of 1000 high school pitchers will effectively pitch at this level.
The odds of hitting and effectively pitching at 90 is 1/1000 due three "speed" barriers which all young pitchers seek to break through. Each one is progressively more difficult:
83-- The speed at which poor mechanics or work ethics limits one's progress. Short-arming the ball, losing interest, or poor work-ethics are the usual culprits. 90% of high school pitchers will never surpass 83. The top 10% of high school pitchers who surpass this level usually go on to Juco or DIII or higher.
87-- The speed at which fielders are separated from pitchers. We've all seen it: The guy throwing 90 from the outfield can only top 86-87 on the mound. Usually because if he tries to throw faster he loses control. Or because he has never developed a second or third pitch and is never given a chance. So it is not a matter of arm strength, even ability, it is a matter of command and pitcher development. Ok, you can hit 88. Can you throw strikes? Can you fool batters? Only 1% of high school pitchers will have a chance to pitch at a higher level (and higher speed).
90-- The speed at which genetics determines fate. Try as you might, this is rarified air. And if you can throw three pitches for strikes at this level, the world is your oyster. Only about 1 out of 1000 high school pitchers will effectively pitch at this level.
Bum that was good stuff.
I also agree with Midlodad. FWIW, mine was 6'3" as a senior in HS, very loose arm and hitting 90-91 but sat in the range of 87-89. Not until 22, an inch added along with years of conditioning and great mechanics did he hit 95-96. Those velo charts with age and heights is misleading. It could be many years later after 17-18 a pitcher hits what you think he should.
I agree with the slider, should be put off until college. The third pitch should be the curve ball.
A good FB with movement and a decent change up, decent curveball is all you need.
I also agree with Midlodad. FWIW, mine was 6'3" as a senior in HS, very loose arm and hitting 90-91 but sat in the range of 87-89. Not until 22, an inch added along with years of conditioning and great mechanics did he hit 95-96. Those velo charts with age and heights is misleading. It could be many years later after 17-18 a pitcher hits what you think he should.
I agree with the slider, should be put off until college. The third pitch should be the curve ball.
A good FB with movement and a decent change up, decent curveball is all you need.
I agree that the fastball should be the number one pitch. I also agree that the change should be the number two pitch. My thought is that the breaking ball is the third pitch but it's not neccessarily a curve ball. Pretty tough to have a kid throw a good 12-6 curve if he has a low, 3/4 arm slot. Pick one- cutter, slider, slurve, curve. The problem isn't the pitch. It's how it's taught.
Regarding gaining velocity later- very few guys gain velocity after natural physical maturation. The people that are saying they have seen added velocity with their kids after 17/18 years old have also said that those same kids kept growing after 18. Well, no kidding. Some guys physically peak at 18 and others at 22. That's what will determine what his body is capable of doing.
Regarding gaining velocity later- very few guys gain velocity after natural physical maturation. The people that are saying they have seen added velocity with their kids after 17/18 years old have also said that those same kids kept growing after 18. Well, no kidding. Some guys physically peak at 18 and others at 22. That's what will determine what his body is capable of doing.
ncball,
You may be correct, as far as the breaking pitch and the slot, but I do beleive a slider should not be a HS pitch, because it isn't always taught correctly.
Mine threw a slurve in HS, but not until late in HS. In college his pitching coach made the transition between an actual CB and slider.
I made my comments because players and parents come here asking questions that really are so hard to answer, who can anyone answer where a 15 year old pitcher is expected to be with no more info? Who can predict that pitcher will gain more velo or not, he may stop growing at 15,16, maybe not stop until 22,23.
All players are different, all players physically mature differently. I am not even sure why this is discussed so often. No one has control over a player's growth. Good mechanics, good toss, good conditioning is all you can control. JMO.
You may be correct, as far as the breaking pitch and the slot, but I do beleive a slider should not be a HS pitch, because it isn't always taught correctly.
Mine threw a slurve in HS, but not until late in HS. In college his pitching coach made the transition between an actual CB and slider.
I made my comments because players and parents come here asking questions that really are so hard to answer, who can anyone answer where a 15 year old pitcher is expected to be with no more info? Who can predict that pitcher will gain more velo or not, he may stop growing at 15,16, maybe not stop until 22,23.
All players are different, all players physically mature differently. I am not even sure why this is discussed so often. No one has control over a player's growth. Good mechanics, good toss, good conditioning is all you can control. JMO.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
This is my 1 of 1000 theory:
The odds of hitting and effectively pitching at 90 is 1/1000 due three "speed" barriers which all young pitchers seek to break through. Each one is progressively more difficult:
83-- The speed at which poor mechanics or work ethics limits one's progress. Short-arming the ball, losing interest, or poor work-ethics are the usual culprits. 90% of high school pitchers will never surpass 83. The top 10% of high school pitchers who surpass this level usually go on to Juco or DIII or higher.
87-- The speed at which fielders are separated from pitchers. We've all seen it: The guy throwing 90 from the outfield can only top 86-87 on the mound. Usually because if he tries to throw faster he loses control. Or because he has never developed a second or third pitch and is never given a chance. So it is not a matter of arm strength, even ability, it is a matter of command and pitcher development. Ok, you can hit 88. Can you throw strikes? Can you fool batters? Only 1% of high school pitchers will have a chance to pitch at a higher level (and higher speed).
90-- The speed at which genetics determines fate. Try as you might, this is rarified air. And if you can throw three pitches for strikes at this level, the world is your oyster. Only about 1 out of 1000 high school pitchers will effectively pitch at this level.
This may be one of the best descriptions of velocity I've ever read. Really nice analysis!
OK. I have heard for a long time that the slider is the hardest pitch on the arm. I have been involved in discussions surrounding the curveball and ASMI showing/opining that the curveball actually puts less stress on the arm than a fastball. What I am not sure of is why the slider is considered so much harder on the arm than the curveball or cutter.
My understanding is that the difference between these three pitches is the degree of angle on the wrist/forearm. Fastball - you're squared up, Cutter - you hold off center and turn your thumb up slightly in relation to the fastball, Slider - turn up a little more, Curveball - 90 degrees so you are throwing with a chopping type motion. All three pitches should be thrown with the same mechanics as the fastball, just different grip and wrist angle. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If that is the case, why would the slider be so much harder on the arm than a curveball? Especially for a low 3/4 guy. Following the above logic, a low 3/4 guy really can't throw a true curveball because his hand would literally be under the ball and he would have nothing on it.
I know this is a little off topic, but it is out there now. I've been on the board for a while now and have always heard that the slider is the worst on your arm, but never a discussion on why. Thanks guys.
My understanding is that the difference between these three pitches is the degree of angle on the wrist/forearm. Fastball - you're squared up, Cutter - you hold off center and turn your thumb up slightly in relation to the fastball, Slider - turn up a little more, Curveball - 90 degrees so you are throwing with a chopping type motion. All three pitches should be thrown with the same mechanics as the fastball, just different grip and wrist angle. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If that is the case, why would the slider be so much harder on the arm than a curveball? Especially for a low 3/4 guy. Following the above logic, a low 3/4 guy really can't throw a true curveball because his hand would literally be under the ball and he would have nothing on it.
I know this is a little off topic, but it is out there now. I've been on the board for a while now and have always heard that the slider is the worst on your arm, but never a discussion on why. Thanks guys.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
If that is the case, why would the slider be so much harder on the arm than a curveball?
Because it's thrown significantly harder, basically at fastball effort.
For the same reason, I don't like the cutter.
Thanks for the input John, but all pitches should be thrown at fastball effort. If you don't, you are tipping your pitches. Even the change up is thrown with the same motion or effort. Only thing that changes is the grip. Not sure that is the answer.
bballman- exactly. We talk about every pitch being a fastball. The only thing that changes is the grip. Regarding the slider, most guys really tweak their elbow and don't finish properly. Thus, they get injured (see Kerry Wood). I liking teaching a cutter to younger guys. Hook the seam on the side and throw the heck out of it. Usually the same action as a slider.
ncball,
Once again, we teach the same thing.
Once again, we teach the same thing.
BUM: As usual...perfect.
I don't pretend to be a Dr. but ASMI, Jobe, and others who know about this stuff recommend staying away from sliders at ages under 18 - period.
I believe it has to do with the twisting motion coupled with the velocity of the pitch. F = Mass * (Vel)2. A good HS curve is a low 70MPH pitch where FB's are 85ish. Sliders are around 80 so the stress is much higher (squared function) as well as the twisting of the elbow. With a properly thrown curve the fingers are up on top of the ball and the elbow has low stress applied to it, velocity is lower so the stress is lower also.
My own anecdotal evidence from younger kids I have been around who thought they were throwing curves and were actually throwing more of a slider, and most if not all of them have had arm/elbow issues.
Like TPM has pointed out everyone is different, some can get away with it, but those who know what they are talking about advise players to not use them until they are fully mature.
So my advice would be to go with those who know about this stuff and not follow the advice of those who just might be one of the lucky few.
I don't pretend to be a Dr. but ASMI, Jobe, and others who know about this stuff recommend staying away from sliders at ages under 18 - period.
I believe it has to do with the twisting motion coupled with the velocity of the pitch. F = Mass * (Vel)2. A good HS curve is a low 70MPH pitch where FB's are 85ish. Sliders are around 80 so the stress is much higher (squared function) as well as the twisting of the elbow. With a properly thrown curve the fingers are up on top of the ball and the elbow has low stress applied to it, velocity is lower so the stress is lower also.
My own anecdotal evidence from younger kids I have been around who thought they were throwing curves and were actually throwing more of a slider, and most if not all of them have had arm/elbow issues.
Like TPM has pointed out everyone is different, some can get away with it, but those who know what they are talking about advise players to not use them until they are fully mature.
So my advice would be to go with those who know about this stuff and not follow the advice of those who just might be one of the lucky few.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
Thanks for the input John, but all pitches should be thrown at fastball effort. If you don't, you are tipping your pitches. Even the change up is thrown with the same motion or effort. Only thing that changes is the grip. Not sure that is the answer.
Certainly the change-up should be thrown exactly the same as the fastball, but I'm not so sure about curveballs, especially good ones (and I'm talking about regular curves and not power curves). The arm action should be the same, but not necessarily the arm speed.
If you look at MLers, your average FB is probably 90 or 91, your average slider or cutter is probably 87 or 88, and your average curve is probably 77.
Also, a good curveball has a hit-it-if-you can quality, which allows for a lower velocity.
Yes, the curveball is slower. That is because the wrist angle is one where the ball comes off of the hand with a forward spin. You are actually karate chopping the arm. Now, just turn your wrist/forearm to a 45 degree angle (half way between fastball and curve) and throw like a fastball and you have your slider. Turn another 22.5 degrees, throw like a fastball and you have your cutter. Turn to 0 degrees and you have your fastball.
All the same mechanics, all the same arm speed. Ball just comes off the hand a little different. ASMI always said that a curveball was worse for your arm until they actually did a force study on it. When they did that, they found that the pitch that put the most stress on the arm was the fastball, followed by the curve, then the changeup.
Just wondering if the slider is another pitch that falls into that category of "it's just bad for you" without having a valid reason for it.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just trying to understand what the reasons are for the belief.
All the same mechanics, all the same arm speed. Ball just comes off the hand a little different. ASMI always said that a curveball was worse for your arm until they actually did a force study on it. When they did that, they found that the pitch that put the most stress on the arm was the fastball, followed by the curve, then the changeup.
Just wondering if the slider is another pitch that falls into that category of "it's just bad for you" without having a valid reason for it.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just trying to understand what the reasons are for the belief.
Yaya- Bballman explained it perfectly. I will dumb it down even more. The fastball would be faster because you have more energy behind the ball as your fingers are directly behind it. The change is thrown with pressure on the high inside. The slider is thrown with pressure on the high outside. The curve is thrown with more pressure on the front of the ball. The arm works the same. The difference is the energy on the ball is in different places.
I asked someone about the dangers of the slider thrown early in hS.
The only danger seen, like the CB is that it becomes a reliance pitch for the pitcher to succeed, where he should be mastering his fB (inside as well as outside), CU and the curve, cutter or slider be his third pitch and know when to throw that pitch (in what count). FB should be the pitch relied on 3/4 of the time. If the pitcher doesn't have the velo, instead of working on control and command, they rely on a CB, slider, more difficult to hit become the norm for his arsenal. Once past HS, sliders are more frequent and the better hitters get it done.
This is interesting to me, because I have seen many pitchers in college be somewaht successful throwing slider after slider, great numbers, but the FB doesn't develop for further pro consideration and frequent use as a young pitcher CAN lead to issues later on.
Would you all agree on that?
The only danger seen, like the CB is that it becomes a reliance pitch for the pitcher to succeed, where he should be mastering his fB (inside as well as outside), CU and the curve, cutter or slider be his third pitch and know when to throw that pitch (in what count). FB should be the pitch relied on 3/4 of the time. If the pitcher doesn't have the velo, instead of working on control and command, they rely on a CB, slider, more difficult to hit become the norm for his arsenal. Once past HS, sliders are more frequent and the better hitters get it done.
This is interesting to me, because I have seen many pitchers in college be somewaht successful throwing slider after slider, great numbers, but the FB doesn't develop for further pro consideration and frequent use as a young pitcher CAN lead to issues later on.
Would you all agree on that?
Let me take a shot at the Slider question. I have also heard that it is a pitch for youth players to stay away from (18U); and have asked some top pitching coaches about this. The answer I got goes something like this:
When throwing a Fastball, you have your hand fully behind the baseball, imparting no undue rotation or stress on the arm (joints) until the arm naturally pronates after release.
When throwing a Curveball, the arm angle is set in a full karate chop. Best if the angle is set in the glove before starting the delivery. This is a comparatively easy angle to hold throughout the delivery, to release (at which time the arm naturally pronates).
The slider is thrown at approx. a 45 degreee angle (half a curve ball). This is a much harder arm angle to hold throughout the delivery; requiring much more strength; and often leading to twisting of the arm during the delivery. It is the twisting of the arm during delivery that creates the huge amounts of negative force on the joints, tendons, and all that good stuff that causes injury.
Just try making the movement to simulate throwing with your empty hand, in a Fastball, karate chop Curveball, and 45 degree slider position, and you may feel what I'm saying. It requires more thinking and muscle control to hold the 45 degree angle throughout.
I can still vividly remember being at a camp for HS players when I was coming up (shortly after the Civil War), and the Methusalah looking College Pitching Guru divided us into the Under 17 group and the 17+ group. He explained that he would not teach a Curveball to any player under 17; and that any of us in the younger group caught trying to throw a curveball while at the camp would be sent home -- no refunds.
He proceeded to then show us his right forearm, where you could see the double speed bumps, where the tendons or muscles had crossed over throwing a Curveball when he was a pro -- and stuck. Of course, back then, they were teaching you to throw a curveball by twisting the wrist and forearm right at the time of delivery.
Me ... I teach the "set it and forget it" approach of setting the grip and arm angle in the glove, and then just throwing a "fastball". I discourage kids from throwing anything that requires them to have to think, or work to hold the arm angle during the pitch.
For what it's worth.
When throwing a Fastball, you have your hand fully behind the baseball, imparting no undue rotation or stress on the arm (joints) until the arm naturally pronates after release.
When throwing a Curveball, the arm angle is set in a full karate chop. Best if the angle is set in the glove before starting the delivery. This is a comparatively easy angle to hold throughout the delivery, to release (at which time the arm naturally pronates).
The slider is thrown at approx. a 45 degreee angle (half a curve ball). This is a much harder arm angle to hold throughout the delivery; requiring much more strength; and often leading to twisting of the arm during the delivery. It is the twisting of the arm during delivery that creates the huge amounts of negative force on the joints, tendons, and all that good stuff that causes injury.
Just try making the movement to simulate throwing with your empty hand, in a Fastball, karate chop Curveball, and 45 degree slider position, and you may feel what I'm saying. It requires more thinking and muscle control to hold the 45 degree angle throughout.
I can still vividly remember being at a camp for HS players when I was coming up (shortly after the Civil War), and the Methusalah looking College Pitching Guru divided us into the Under 17 group and the 17+ group. He explained that he would not teach a Curveball to any player under 17; and that any of us in the younger group caught trying to throw a curveball while at the camp would be sent home -- no refunds.
He proceeded to then show us his right forearm, where you could see the double speed bumps, where the tendons or muscles had crossed over throwing a Curveball when he was a pro -- and stuck. Of course, back then, they were teaching you to throw a curveball by twisting the wrist and forearm right at the time of delivery.
Me ... I teach the "set it and forget it" approach of setting the grip and arm angle in the glove, and then just throwing a "fastball". I discourage kids from throwing anything that requires them to have to think, or work to hold the arm angle during the pitch.
For what it's worth.
Average minds thinking similar!
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
ncball,
Once again, we teach the same thing.
Thanks NC ... I think?
Since this started out as a thread about 15-year old Freshmen, and what they should expect of themselves, let me add this.
My Little Southpaw (all 6' of him) is a 15-year old Soph this year. As a 14-year old Freshman, he ws only throwing 65-68 (FB) with a CB and CU that ran in about 10 mph less. He would not have been allowed to pitch at our local public HS; where a Freshman has to be throwing 70, or no Pitching.
Fortunately for him, he was not at our local HS, and Pitched for the Varsity (only) team at his school. Against better competition than the public school faced, he went 2-2-2 with a 3.5 ERA (mostly from one rough outting).
This year he is a 15-year old Soph, and he is up to the mid 70's on the FB. He pitched in a Fall "Varsity" league. Since he had not been throwing a lot, he went a few games throwing nothing but fastballs; using command and movement to get the job done.
In a 3-game span, he went 3-0 (including beating a team made up of our local HS Varsity players), threw 16 innings, allowed 3 R, 1 ER, and averaged <10 pitches per inning. 90%+ of those pitches being 70-75 mph Fastballs.
He is working towards cracking 80 for the spring season.
The Moral of the Story: Yes, work on your strength and mechanics so you can "bring" as much as your body has today ... but more importantly, develop the command to put each pitch where you want it, and make them hit your pitch. A well placed 70mph fastball beats a grooved 80 mph fastball almost every time.
Since this started out as a thread about 15-year old Freshmen, and what they should expect of themselves, let me add this.
My Little Southpaw (all 6' of him) is a 15-year old Soph this year. As a 14-year old Freshman, he ws only throwing 65-68 (FB) with a CB and CU that ran in about 10 mph less. He would not have been allowed to pitch at our local public HS; where a Freshman has to be throwing 70, or no Pitching.
Fortunately for him, he was not at our local HS, and Pitched for the Varsity (only) team at his school. Against better competition than the public school faced, he went 2-2-2 with a 3.5 ERA (mostly from one rough outting).
This year he is a 15-year old Soph, and he is up to the mid 70's on the FB. He pitched in a Fall "Varsity" league. Since he had not been throwing a lot, he went a few games throwing nothing but fastballs; using command and movement to get the job done.
In a 3-game span, he went 3-0 (including beating a team made up of our local HS Varsity players), threw 16 innings, allowed 3 R, 1 ER, and averaged <10 pitches per inning. 90%+ of those pitches being 70-75 mph Fastballs.
He is working towards cracking 80 for the spring season.
The Moral of the Story: Yes, work on your strength and mechanics so you can "bring" as much as your body has today ... but more importantly, develop the command to put each pitch where you want it, and make them hit your pitch. A well placed 70mph fastball beats a grooved 80 mph fastball almost every time.
Southpaw- I was referring to Redbird. I do like your "set it and forget it". We do the same thing. So, I can say average minds (I know redbird and I'm best when self-depricating) with redbird but throw you in the "good to great minds" category.
