175 pitches!!

1.  The coach is an idiot

2.  If it took him 175 pitches to get through 8 innings he was not pitching well. 

How did you determine 175 pitches? 

Two scorekeepers

playball2011 posted:

1.  The coach is an idiot

2.  If it took him 175 pitches to get through 8 innings he was not pitching well. 

Exactly. 22 pitches in an inning is a bad inning. To average 22 pitches per inning for 8 innings is not good. To be fair, though, he probably got tired after the first, oh, I don't know,125 pitches.

We hear lots of stories like that.  It's sad! As many great HS coaches there are out there, there's way too many of these types.  That's why it is nice to see some states going with rules to prevent this.

Funny thing is, if that kid goes to a PG event and throws two innings guess who gets blamed if he has TJ.  Actually there's nothing funny about that.

I always wonder what the parents think when those things happen.  I've seen parents get pissed off when their son gets pulled after 100 pitches or more. We have had parents ask us to let their son pitch the next day after he threw 3 innings, hoping he would do better.  It's hard telling them no, but we always tell them no.

GoodTimes posted:

I've read the stories, but saw it first-hand tonight. In a varsity 6A game, I watched the opposing team allow its starting pitcher to go 175 pitches through 8 innings. To the pitcher's credit, he pitched very well in a tight game and looked strong throughout, but I really never thought in this day and age, with all the information and research available, that I would actually witness such a thing. True case of a coach getting caught up and absolutely losing his mind. And nobody from the other side, coaches, parents, nobody, seemed to be saying anything. I actually started thinking about yelling something out to the opposing coach myself as they continued to trot the kid back out. Maybe I should have..... 

175 in 8 innings means he was going deep into counts.  

We don't know much about the pitcher, whether he has a future after HS or not.  Regardless that is excessive and dangerous  for any young man.

I am a huge proponent of stopping pitcher abuse among youth pitchers. This is abuse. And he is still a child. If I were watching, regardless of who I was in relation to the pitcher, that coach would have heard me loud and clear, then I would have made myself loud and clear to the parents.

Shame on all of them.

Finally something we can all agree on!  And agreed all are to blame. Now maybe parents weren't there.  Would never happen to mine with me in attendance.  And kid gets the least blame obviously but needs to take some accountability for his own health too. Should have told them he was done at some point.   

Gather the evidence & CALL UIL & Texas HS Coaches Association, his school principal & Athletic Director! Get him written up asap! 

And, somebody counsel the kid! 

baseballmom posted:

Gather the evidence & CALL UIL & Texas HS Coaches Association, his school principal & Athletic Director! Get him written up asap! 

And, somebody counsel the kid! 

Let's get it done!!!

That coach should have been fired on the spot.   This is exactly why the pitch count rules are being developed in Texas and are in place in Colorado and Alabama.  

Totally agree with all previous posts! With all the recent information available to everyone regarding overuse, how in the world could this happen in today's game?

I'm sorry, but that coach deserves to be fired immediately

I was told our game was cancelled yesterday.

Our first rivalry conference game was played in pretty moderate rain this year.  Heavier than we would normally play, but it is an El Nino year.  It rained the whole game and was probably about 65 degrees.  Game balls were constantly being rotated in for new ones or towel treatment because there was so much rain the ball was getting thoroughly wet just from pitching.  Game goes extra innings, when they finally pulled the starting pitcher from the opposing team, we counted our scorebook for 146 pitches.  I dont even know if that accounts for all the foul balls.  That team won and in the paper the coach was asked and said he threw 130 pitches.  Hope they enjoyed the win.

Was P coaches son by chance?

GoodTimes posted:

Two scorekeepers

I was just wondering if they missed a pitching change. I have done it using game changer. Either forgot to change or the change didn't take.  

I know it's hard to believe, but I was at the game. No pitching change in that number. The count is unfortunately legit.

Did this actually happen? Theres no way this is just news here.Can't find and mention of it using the world wide web.

The real news is that without knowing anything about the kid or his situation, people are outraged about an event that in all likelihood will have zero negative impact on the player's future. Well, I guess that really isn't news.

Yes. You should have yelled at the opposing coach. That is always a good idea.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot.  If this situation wouldn't have been brought up here, most all of us would not know it happened. Even at that some have trouble believing it.  BTW, we have heard of much higher pitch counts in high school games.

PGStaff posted:

Unfortunately, this happens a lot.  If this situation wouldn't have been brought up here, most all of us would not know it happened. Even at that some have trouble believing it.  BTW, we have heard of much higher pitch counts in high school games.

Much higher than 175? Wow!

Just curious, what's the highest count that you've heard?

You don't feel 175 pitches for about 175 days... of course for the next week you will be sore and achy, but it is the LONG TERM damage that such a stunt really plays out. There is always the anomaly that can handle it but for so many that stress comes back at some point. It is typically the next season when this happens sadly.

For those seniors in college who know they are not moving on, Ok. I can see this. We faced some arms towards the end that were pitching for their (baseball) lives. They were going to throw until they had nothing left. There was no tomorrow. But for those with a future in baseball you CAN NOT throw this many pitches. It is just not worth it

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

GoingwiththePitch posted:

You don't feel 175 pitches for about 175 days... of course for the next week you will be sore and achy, but it is the LONG TERM damage that such a stunt really plays out. There is always the anomaly that can handle it but for so many that stress comes back at some point. It is typically the next season when this happens sadly.

For those seniors in college who know they are not moving on, Ok. I can see this. We faced some arms towards the end that were pitching for their (baseball) lives. They were going to throw until they had nothing left. There was no tomorrow. But for those with a future in baseball you CAN NOT throw this many pitches. It is just not worth it

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

It really doesn't matter whether it's his last year in HS or his first.

 Baseball injuries become lifelong issues.

Did he win?  How was he on Saturday?  I agree with the others!!

TPM posted:

GoingwiththePitch posted:

You don't feel 175 pitches for about 175 days... of course for the next week you will be sore and achy, but it is the LONG TERM damage that such a stunt really plays out. There is always the anomaly that can handle it but for so many that stress comes back at some point. It is typically the next season when this happens sadly.

For those seniors in college who know they are not moving on, Ok. I can see this. We faced some arms towards the end that were pitching for their (baseball) lives. They were going to throw until they had nothing left. There was no tomorrow. But for those with a future in baseball you CAN NOT throw this many pitches. It is just not worth it

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

It really doesn't matter whether it's his last year in HS or his first.

 Baseball injuries become lifelong issues.

Fair point.

To clarify I was simply saying that in a Regional CWS game as a senior, throwing an extra 50-75 pitches, although pretty painful, 99.9% of the time won't have any lasting affects on the arm. This is clearly the exception to the rule (on a one-off basis!), although it did occur with our opponent in the Regionals (they were saving their #1 arm for game 2).  But for all intensive purposes you are correct

I agree that 175 sounds high.

I also agree that we really have no idea what the details are.  Is this the kid's last game?  Is the count correct?  Does he have a twin?  Is he pitching for his dying Mom/Dad/Grandma or something?  Does he throw sidearm at 65mph?

This is really between the kid, and his coaches and parents, not a Twitter mob.

Looks like it may have been Bowie Bulldogs vs. Austin, 3:30 game, Burger Field, 4/09. Game went extra innings, closer in for 8th, according to a "tweet". But haven't seen anything on pitches thrown for starter.  http://txhighschoolbaseball.com/6a/14-6a/

Perhaps GoodTimes can confirm? In any event, this really should be reported, if accurate! Surprising the Statesman hasn't reported on this...

Moral of story:  If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything. 

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

roothog66 posted:

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

No, it's the coach.

roothog, Texas Baseball Coaches Assoc is proposing pitch counts  to UIL...It happens way too often! Been going on a long, long time...

See this recent article:

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/te...d-pitch-count-limits

Go44dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

No, it's the coach.

Based on what? To take this stance, you have to take the position that it is universally accepted that this number is a line that the coach knew was abusive and crossed it anyway. Believe it or not, there are still some old school coaches that think the pitch counts are ridiculous and that the coaches are better positioned to know how many a kid can safely throw based on a number of factors. There are also still some holdouts, including several old HOF pitchers, who contend that restricting pitch counts is actually making the problem worse (not taking that position, just pointing out that they are out there). So, when the state association refuses to step in and say, "we, as an organization, are taking the stance that elevated pitch counts represent a problem and are putting in place preventative measures" then a coach can decide if he wants to continue to coach under the rules or retire from coaching. Alternatively, the school board that hires a coach can put such restrictions on the coach. However, to retroactively tell a coach his assessment is wrong and that he broke some unwritten rule and fire him because his professional opinion on how many pitches a kid can safely throw on a Tuesday afternoon is capricious and could lead to problems. You want to be able to hold a coach responsible for his professional opinion then enforceable guidelines have to be in place. It's incredibly difficult for a school or a state organization to punish a coach for breaking a pitch limit when it didn't have the balls to put limits in place themselves.

baseballmom posted:

roothog, Texas Baseball Coaches Assoc is proposing pitch counts  to UIL...It happens way too often! Been going on a long, long time...

See this recent article:

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/te...d-pitch-count-limits

Having been through it here in Colorado, I can say that you're going to be shocked at how much opposition it gets and how hard it will be to actually get it passed. Colorado has a 110 pitch limit and exceeding 85 pitches requires four days rest (in my opinion one day too few). The Texas guidelines right now look pretty vague - a 105 pitch limit is proposed with 3-5 days rest. There is a huge difference between 3 and 5 days rest. It would be better if the NFHSA put pitch counts in the FED rules. Then states would have to opt out which would be considerably harder and unpopular for them to do.

baseballmom posted:

Looks like it may have been Bowie Bulldogs vs. Austin, 3:30 game, Burger Field, 4/09. Game went extra innings, closer in for 8th, according to a "tweet". But haven't seen anything on pitches thrown for starter.  http://txhighschoolbaseball.com/6a/14-6a/

Perhaps GoodTimes can confirm? In any event, this really should be reported, if accurate! Surprising the Statesman hasn't reported on this...

Moral of story:  If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything. 

Reported to who? Again, the judgement seems poor, but he didn't break any rules. There's nothing to "report."

Texas rules only mandate that a kid can't throw more than 10 innings in one day. He didn't do that.

THSCA is presenting to UIL on Apr 17. UIL Medical Advisory is well versed, and working to adopt the guidelines of USA Baseball & others. Agree, that NFHSA needs to make a universal rule change. As I see it, its just a matter of time. 

ironhorse, correct, no rule...yet. I don't see this as only a "coaching problem". I think that kids & parents need a bit of an education & training on arm health & care, and what is going on that is unseen...until they hear the pop or feel the pain. A coach should know better! 

Not to throw gasoline on pitch counts, but common sense and experience tells us maximum pitch count before fatigue sets in is different from one pitcher to the next.  I have seen pitchers that are done for the day at 50 pitches, others that feel good at 100 pitches.

That said, I think pitch count rules are very helpful in eliminating any of the gross abuse that goes on in the interest of winning a baseball game.  After all, throwing 80-100 pitches is a reasonable number for even those capable of throwing much more than that.  If those pitches represent 7 or more innings, it is a good outing, a good day for that pitcher.  Not so good if it happens in 3 or 4 innings.

We do know there have been pitchers that threw very hard in the past and could and did throw way over 100 pitches in an outing.  And they did it without injuring their arm.   Problem is we never know in advance who can or can't do this.  So at least during the younger ages something has to be done to protect them as much as possible from injury. If it can't be accomplished through education, it will require rules.

I do think young kids should participate in other sports and activities.  I do think kids need time off from pitching.  I don't understand why people automatically assume a pitcher throwing in the off season is bad.  Just because a pitcher is throwing in December or January doesn't mean he hasn't taken time off.  In fact, in some situations I would argue a pitcher needs to be throwing then because he has had too much time off for one reason or another. Guess I'm talking about older kids when I say that, not 9 year olds.  So just because we hear about a pitcher throwing in December or January don't assume he hasn't taken time off.  He might have last pitched in July and taken 4 months off.  Or maybe he was injured and missed most all of his sophomore or junior season.  

A question... Does anyone here know a pitcher that actually pitches in games year around?  The reason I ask is because I don't know of anyone that actually does that in this country.

baseballmom posted:

THSCA is presenting to UIL on Apr 17. UIL Medical Advisory is well versed, and working to adopt the guidelines of USA Baseball & others. Agree, that NFHSA needs to make a universal rule change. As I see it, its just a matter of time. 

Most likely, they will end up with something similar, if not identical to Colorado and Oregon. The USA Baseball guidelines are too restrictive to get passed, so there will be a compromise by pointing to Colorado. The other part of the proposal that won't fly with is the idea of separate pc limits for different ages. They will split it by JV and varsity, but will find it impossible to push a different pc for the 16yo Sophomore and the 18yo senior. That might make a nice negotiation piece, though. Still, it's a start.

PGStaff posted:

Not to throw gasoline on pitch counts, but common sense and experience tells us maximum pitch count before fatigue sets in is different from one pitcher to the next.  I have seen pitchers that are done for the day at 50 pitches, others that feel good at 100 pitches.

That said, I think pitch count rules are very helpful in eliminating any of the gross abuse that goes on in the interest of winning a baseball game.  After all, throwing 80-100 pitches is a reasonable number for even those capable of throwing much more than that.  If those pitches represent 7 or more innings, it is a good outing, a good day for that pitcher.  Not so good if it happens in 3 or 4 innings.

We do know there have been pitchers that threw very hard in the past and could and did throw way over 100 pitches in an outing.  And they did it without injuring their arm.   Problem is we never know in advance who can or can't do this.  So at least during the younger ages something has to be done to protect them as much as possible from injury. If it can't be accomplished through education, it will require rules.

I do think young kids should participate in other sports and activities.  I do think kids need time off from pitching.  I don't understand why people automatically assume a pitcher throwing in the off season is bad.  Just because a pitcher is throwing in December or January doesn't mean he hasn't taken time off.  In fact, in some situations I would argue a pitcher needs to be throwing then because he has had too much time off for one reason or another. Guess I'm talking about older kids when I say that, not 9 year olds.  So just because we hear about a pitcher throwing in December or January don't assume he hasn't taken time off.  He might have last pitched in July and taken 4 months off.  Or maybe he was injured and missed most all of his sophomore or junior season.  

A question... Does anyone here know a pitcher that actually pitches in games year around?  The reason I ask is because I don't know of anyone that actually does that in this country.

No, not really, but I've known some kids who came very, very close in the 12U - 14U range -- one of whom is a 2019 who recently verbally committed to a major program.

As to the highlighted sentence, there were a couple interesting anecdotes from "The Arm": (1) Trevor Bauer threw -- not pitched -- but threw about 360 days per year during high school; (2) Tommy John threw 45 minutes per day, every day, while recovering from the original TJ surgery (there was no recovery protocol at that time), and then pitched 18 more years in MLB. Maybe Kyle Boddy is on to something when he says "the idea that you will get better at throwing a baseball by not throwing a baseball is insane." See "Overuse is not the problem: Undertraining is the devil": www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/

baseballmom posted:

A coach should know better! 

Completely agree

roothog66 posted:

While 175 pitches is too much, calls to fire the coach are a bit ridiculous. You want a coach fired because he violated some arbitrary, secret rule? How many pitches, exactly, should lead to the loss of a coaching position? 110? 125? 135? Further, if that is the line, maybe you should let the coach know what that line is before he crosses it. Your focus should be not on the coach, but on state organizations that allow this. It could be that this will never have an effect on the kid and, indeed, this one performance isn't, in isolation, a problem - happens way more often than you hear about. It could be an isolated event with a coach that normally is responsible and one that isn't even part of a larger pattern of overuse. However, it may a red flag that brings attention to such a pattern. That

The rule is an easy one.  If my kid doesn't bat third and play SS, then the coach should be fired.