2 for the Price of 1: Bush League or Legitimate Play?

Are you sure the kid just didnt do it without instruction from his coach???

Great question TR! I asked the same question. I was told by another spectator the play had been in that team's playbook for many years.

if so then the opponents should have been aware of it and alerted the umpires previously

Cleveland Dad - a big question for me in this scenario (outside of the ethical one) is how did the team know for sure that one of the umps wouldn't move over to watch that runner from second. We only have two umps in all of our HS games here until playoffs. During summer ball we only have two umps. Were they that comfortable that both umps would be watching first?

I hate to criticize umps (LOL) but after the first run scored the homeplate ump should have been looking at third base-- oops they missed again--

lafmom,

I don't know the nuances of the play - all I know is that it worked on this occasion.

TR,

None of the teams in this tournament had played each other to my knowledge and some were from out of state. I don't know how you alert the umps to something that you likely have not seen before. I would think if they do play again in the future, the subject will be brought up before it happens.

TR - that's exactly my point. The homeplate ump should have had time to call the lead runner safe at home while watching the other runner. The field umpire should have had the batter. The homeplate ump shouldn't have made any assumptions about the runner that had advanced to second. Why would this coach think he would. I would be interested in knowing if the team executing the play was from there?

However, this still doesn't account for the ethics of the situation. I was kind of torn by the situation because of some variables involved IMO. I just asked my son what he thinks because he's considered a very "hard-nosed" kind of player. He didn't feel like this is baseball - it's cheating - deliberately bypassing a base. That's changing the game. Thanks for sharing a thought provoking situation CD!

There was a LL coach (Juniors & Seniors) in Windermere who "taught" this "play" for years. To call it bush is to insult bush play everywhere.

Next batter gets it in the ribcage, then you try to pick him off first bse before the next pitch with the hard tag, if you know what I mean.

Then you announce it so loud that everybody in the park can hear it: Since the opposing manager has no scruples, we're going to play that way, too. Embarrass him, and the umpires, in front of everyone.

You'll get tossed, but in this case it would seem to be well worth it.

OldVaman....

It works for me!

a couple of years ago, we had a local High School coach fired for teaching that play to his team.

With a 2 man crew it is difficult to catch the them doing it unless you know it is coming and the umpire away from the actual play sneeks a peak.

yup, seen that play - and often with the same results

that is, the 2B runner cuts "slightly" inside the bag while the PU is watching the 3B runner touch the plate, and when both runners score the offended team is so embarassed that their coaches and 1B didn't see it comming - the story grows & "slightly" turns into 25 ft or maybe just running directly to the plate from the extended lead at 2B

what makes the play work is sleepy coaches & 1B, the "slight cut" only rubs a bit of salt in the wound

the defensive team blew it -
if they got the batter/runner out at 1B, then the ball could'a/should'a been back to the plate for a play in well under 5 seconds from the time it was bunted, unless 1B was sleeping

option 2 is to first get the 2nd runner at the plate, then the batter tying for 2B on the play at the plate

plunk the next batter, & they'll move him or hit & run and you NOW will have jumped from the pan into the fire


fired a hs coach?? do also they fire 'em up there for teaching catchers to pull a "BALL" back into the strike zone??

Bee, are you saying that the defensive coaches whould see the "cheating" coming? That they should be embarrassed because the other team cheated?

I have noticed that some folks who weren't taught or can't execute are always being "cheated" and love to shift the blame to a "cheater"

just so I'm crystal clear to ya -
if you run that play on a team prepared to execute sound defense it'll cost you 2 outs, run it again & it'll cost ya 2 more outs


umm, just a wild guess but Midland won the regional, right?

Bee,
Have seen that play several times myself, even with an umpire standing at third

quote:

a couple of years ago, we had a local High School coach fired for teaching that play to his team

somebody there has so little sense, they could be dangerous

short of harm or danger, if something a coach does bothers the school admins, ya schedule a meeting and talk to him about it, you don't just fire him

See other "Bush" post....

Well, Bee, this play has been around amateur baseball for decades, and the cheaters aren't always the ones who win. Though I do understand your thoughts about unprepared teams saying they were cheated.....some people have to place blame elsewhere.......even great defensive execution will not always get a doubleplay with this scenario. Some teams are taught to take more than a slight cut of the 3B corner.....I mean, why cheat if it is only going to gain you an extra .2 of a second?

And it isn't necessarily the first baseman who is making the putout at 1B, it would more than likely be the second baseman. It will usually be close to 4 seconds to get the batter/runner out at 1B, and the infielder is going to take at least 1.5 seconds to get the throw to home, then the catcher needs to receive the ball and apply a tag--it isn't merely a force at the plate.

Your option #2 probably isn't going to get anybody out......UNLESS the fielder gives a good fullarm pump fake to 1B and the SS is trailing the runner to 3B....no pump fake=no out, and no trailer=no out.

The only teams that really do this---fail to touch 3B---are poorly coached teams who need gimmicks to win......a well coached team can score two runs even if the runner touches 3B, assuming the runner has been allowed to get a fantastic lead off of 2B (ie. infield in and not concerned about runner on 2B). Teams with high level coaching (coaches that truly respect the game) will not run this play (cut the corner).

I was told another story from a friend about the particular team that executed this play. Her son was pitching against them a couple of years ago. The coach on the ? team, yells "he's going". At which time, the catcher stands up and her son ends up balking a run home. Does a team that has true talent and ability have to win by executing "tricks"? While one might be able to say that sort of scheming shows savy baseball thinkers, I would much prefer to watch a game where it is won through pure old baseball talent - ability to hit, run, field, throw, and anticipate plays that are true to the game. Not "creative" playmakers. JMO

grateful, what trailer, what pump?

from the description above with the 25 ft shortcut, the #2 runner is only a few seconds behind #1 runner, prolly somewhere near the pitcher's mound heading for home

- - - or was the situation exagerated somewhat for effect?

me thinks the story "grows" because it's tough to go home and explain why ya didn't execute

ps, if 1B is charging, he just tags the batter/runner, throws to the plate for the tag on the first runner comming from 3B, after which the catcher steps over that runner and tags the runner from 2B sliding into the behind of the first runner who's still laying on/blocking the plate - - end of inning

hey bee!

you read the facts of the situation correctly -there were no exagerations. It was not against my son's team but happened in a game we were watching before our game began. I said 15 to 25 ft. You do the math, it is called Pythagorean theorem and the hypotenuse of a right triangle is a much shorter distance than traveling the outside edges of the triangle. The second kid that scored was only a few feet behind imo. what's your point about midland winning the tournament? that wasn't the point of the thread. you are entitled obviously to any view point you like but why throw in the implied zingers at others? I let your jimmy piersol comment go a few weeks ago and it is uncalled for imo.

I haven't seen any hs teams who are so adept at all aspects of the game that they couldn't have used some more coaching and drills. Whatever time taken in practice on these "plays" is time taken away from the teaching of the sport.

We've talked a lot on this board about the lessons baseball and team sports in general teach the kids. This lesson is wrong. Any adult teaching this play has encouraged his players to take joy in getting one over on the other guy. Would anyone agree with a math teacher who teaches cutting the same corner on tax preparation or how to switch currency at the check-out? Or an English teacher who teaches how to manipulate words in order to lie? 'Splain me the difference.

Isnt this a special one.

Why dont they also teach the same kids to take steroids and cork the bat too. No difference really.

Heres the bottom line IMO - if you have to cheat to win - you suck - and you have no place on a baseball field.

We had a coach teach it to cut from SS to halfway between third and home. He ran it successfully. BEE. I quit as the assistant coach because it is CHEATING. It may be exaggerating the rules to you, but it is blatant cheating in my book. When you teach a player to do something that is illegal it is cheating. You can go to football or basketball or any other sport. Stretching the rules is one thing. Directly abusing them is cheating and the coach should be fired.

This play has been around for years and it takes advantage of the known limitations of the 2 man umpiring system. The cutting of 3rd can be tough to catch when you have a number of other issues going on during a play.....

Umpires are taught to keep an eye on the ball and glance at the runners as they touch. Those of us who have been burned by this play (yes, I was)now are extra vigilant in watching the touch at third. Banging that runner out at 3rd on appeal is justice served.....

Clearly a bush league play.......

We use to run a second and third, less than 2 outs, legitimate (runner coming from second would touch third), squeeze bunt and run. We called it Texas Round-up. Everyone would be coming hard. If the batter didn’t get the bunt down or at least foul it off (on a pitch out) the runners were hung out to dry. It’s an exciting “bang bang” play. A real jail break. You don’t have to cheat to execute this play. Someone told me it came out Ty Cobb’s play book. Real bush league. Shame on the coaches!

“It’s what you learn after you know it all that counts.”
Earl Weaver

Bee.....if you need to ask "what trailer, what pump?" then perhaps you need to go back to Baseball 201.

And you have added option #3 now, a triple play. Sure, just draw it up; I'm sure it will work.

grateful, guess I'll be content not having to go back to 101

c-dad
"what's your point about midland winning the tournament? that wasn't the point of the thread. you are entitled obviously to any view point you like but why throw in the implied zingers at others?"

huh?? my statement - "just a wild guess but Midland won the regional, right?"

a yes or no would'a been ok, and not really sure what an "implied zinger" is


.

piaa_ump-

"A RUN (or SCORE) is the score made by an offensive player who advances from batter to runner and touches first, second, third and home bases in that order."

Just curious-The above definition is from the MLB rules definitions. Why do you suppose it should be necessary for a team to appeal a missed base if YOU saw it happen? By the very definition above, a run cannot be counted unless the runner touches all the bases in order.

Baseball is a funny(confusing) game. Umpires call balk moves when they see them, call interference or obstruction, call fair or foul ball, call out or safe on plays, but are not allowed to call a player out for missing a base unless a team asks him to-even when they see
it happen. They can see a team blatantly try to cheat to score a run but will remain silent
unless it is brought to their attention. Seems strange doesn't it?

JMO

That kind of play is cheating. I shouldn't have to explain, but when you knowingly break the rules to gain an upperhand, it's cheating.

However, as a baseball player, there are a lot of things, such as the Hidden Ball Trick, Framing a Pitch, and other 'strategies' that some could argue is in a category with base skipping. Where do we draw the line?

hmm, interesting observation clipper
to be consistent some here would have to resign or call for the head coach to be fired - if their coach taught his catchers "framing" - ie, glove angles and glove and body action intended to intentionally fool the umpire into thinking a pitch out of the strike zone is really in the strike zone -

or is that kind of cheating ok?

Receiving a pitch correctly, or 'framing', is a skill. It is really intended to make sure 'strikes' are called strikes.

Bringing a 'ball' back into the strike zone is a poor execution of framing. You don't 'fool' good umpires.

What about the hidden ball trick?

nice try grateful, why would a catcher waste effort on stike?
you should sit in on catching 201, 95% of what is called & taught as framing is making a pitch look better than what is, and much is emphasized on how to move the ball into the zone without it seeming like you're moving the ball - - -
some NCAA regional tape I have shows the catcher(s) pulling the ball 6-8 inches back to the plate

so when we see an obvious attempt to pull the ball into the zone should't we eject the player & banish the coach that taught or allowed it?? (just to be consistent with above?)

Ask your son.

95% of what is called and taught as framing is to make a pitch look better than it is? No....

A ball, say, on the black or with a curve can be carried more out of the zone than in without proper framing. Framing (sticking the pitch) allows the catcher to 'corral' the pitch as a called strike. Of course body position and rotating the glove, other elements of framing, are used to emphasize location to the umpire, given that the catcher wants to partner with his pitcher rather than leaving it all to the good nature of Blue. If you have seen catchers pulling a pitch 6-8" off the plate in and getting a called strike, you've been seeing some mighty poor umpiring.

But the discussion wasn't about framing, deking a runner, or the hidden ball trick. It was about intentionally coaching players to cut a base. No shades of grey -- that's cheating.

You don’t have to cheat to play this game. It’s not a light switch you turn on and off?? Cheating is not a sometime thing (neither is winning)! Where is the line drawn between an attempt at gaining an advantage, making an adjustment, and cheating? Trick plays are not cheating if rules are not violated. Cheating is an attitude. Ask Palmerio or Sosa (cork).

“I never tried to outsmart nobody; it was easier to outdummy them.”
Dizzy Dean

Smokey, you've got it right.

The hidden ball trick isn't cheating, as long as the pitcher stays off the mound. Framing pitches is at worst influence peddling.

But failing to touch all the bases, in fact missing one intentionally, violates the basic rules by which the game is played.

To teach anything like that disrespects the game and should be fought at every corner (no pun intended).

lol, he told me I have too much time on my hands if I'm worried about stuff I can't control

also that some who cry the loudest about cheating are really on roids or are stealing your signs as they cry