Last night on ESPN News Steve Phillips, former Mets GM, made this statement.
I thought it was only me!
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Thought I heard that on the original show & and then heard it on the replay.
Shaping up to be a great staff again but based on Steve Phillips tenure in N.Y. not sure if he's the best judge of talent or team chemistry.
nole, what are your thoughts on the trade yesterday & possibility of moving Garland or Contreras & putting McCarthy in rotation?
Shaping up to be a great staff again but based on Steve Phillips tenure in N.Y. not sure if he's the best judge of talent or team chemistry.
nole, what are your thoughts on the trade yesterday & possibility of moving Garland or Contreras & putting McCarthy in rotation?
They won in 2005. Best staff ever? Give me a break.....Garland has had one good season, Buehrle is good, the rest of them have been up and down their whole careers. McCarthy MAY be good but is very unproven. Soxnole can be forgiven, he is still high on White Sox cool-aid....but Phillips is another mouth who spouts out stuff that should be coming out the other end.
If Phillips was so smart and knowledgeable he would still be a GM not a TV mouth
Get out of here they might be the deepest but they have exactly 0 cy young awards.
I heard a rumor that the Sox got Vasquez because they were going to trade Garland and Uribe to the Orioles for Tejhada.
I heard a rumor that the Sox got Vasquez because they were going to trade Garland and Uribe to the Orioles for Tejhada.
I didn't really understand that comment myself. Though, who knows I guess it could prove correct!
I know Vazquez is good, but everyone seems to think this is the greatest thing that’s ever happened for the Sox. They traded a real good prospect and 2 pitchers off a great staff in order to get Vazquez.
I know Vizcaino was up and down a little, but when he’s on he gets lots of groundballs. He’s got real good stuff! “El Duque” can be good at times, also.
Seems like the Sox got another top level starter in turn for their #5 starter, but lost a fairly valuable bullpen arm and a very good prospect.
Vazquez was 11-15 - 4.42ERA – 215.2 IP – 223 H – 21 HR – 46 BB – 192 SO
This in the National League (no DH), you might guess those numbers to get worse in the AL.
Hernandez and Vizcaino (one starter and one reliever)
Total of those 2 - 15-14 - ?.?? ERA – 198.1 IP – 211 H – 47 BB – 134 SO
This in the American League, you might guess those numbers to get better in the NL.
Plus the Sox gave up Chris Young who could end up being a star centerfielder.
I don’t know how adding a “National League” pitcher who gave up more hits than innings pitched but with a “fairly” decent 4.42 ERA makes them the best staff of all time..
In comparison, Chicago’s other starting pitchers who are returning (so far) all have ERA’s between 3.12 and 3.87. (In the AL)
Maybe a good pick up, but with this trade… the best staff ever!??? Why???
I know Vazquez has a big contract (another negative factor) because he was once a prized commodity. But he did not set the world on fire last year! Maybe he will this year, but before the best of all time is named, there's a lot of games to be played.
I know Vazquez is good, but everyone seems to think this is the greatest thing that’s ever happened for the Sox. They traded a real good prospect and 2 pitchers off a great staff in order to get Vazquez.
I know Vizcaino was up and down a little, but when he’s on he gets lots of groundballs. He’s got real good stuff! “El Duque” can be good at times, also.
Seems like the Sox got another top level starter in turn for their #5 starter, but lost a fairly valuable bullpen arm and a very good prospect.
Vazquez was 11-15 - 4.42ERA – 215.2 IP – 223 H – 21 HR – 46 BB – 192 SO
This in the National League (no DH), you might guess those numbers to get worse in the AL.
Hernandez and Vizcaino (one starter and one reliever)
Total of those 2 - 15-14 - ?.?? ERA – 198.1 IP – 211 H – 47 BB – 134 SO
This in the American League, you might guess those numbers to get better in the NL.
Plus the Sox gave up Chris Young who could end up being a star centerfielder.
I don’t know how adding a “National League” pitcher who gave up more hits than innings pitched but with a “fairly” decent 4.42 ERA makes them the best staff of all time..
In comparison, Chicago’s other starting pitchers who are returning (so far) all have ERA’s between 3.12 and 3.87. (In the AL)
Maybe a good pick up, but with this trade… the best staff ever!??? Why???
I know Vazquez has a big contract (another negative factor) because he was once a prized commodity. But he did not set the world on fire last year! Maybe he will this year, but before the best of all time is named, there's a lot of games to be played.
vazquez as a 5th starter...ill take that any day..especially with don cooper coaching him
5 starters that can all handle 200+ innings...With McCarthy in the wings...Sweet! There is probably 30 other teams that would love to be in that position... The White Sox, An organization that has a plan, players that execute the plan... The players that were moved all had value but thats baseball...
FastballDad:
This Phillips guy? Is he the Preparation H spokesman who everyone on the 'baseball beat' refers to?
quote:...but Phillips is another mouth who spouts out stuff that should be coming out the other end.
This Phillips guy? Is he the Preparation H spokesman who everyone on the 'baseball beat' refers to?
PG.
I'm glad we now agree on AL and NL numbers.
FBDad...jealousy is a terrible cub fan induced 2005 (and beyond) problem.
If the Sox get Tejada for Young, Viscaino, El Duque, Uribe and Garland that would be fantastic. Only the Yankees would have a comparable line-up. If we keep things the way they are we will have 5 strong starters with 1 strong starter in the pen for long/middle relief. The Yankees can't sniff that!
There is no guarantee El Duque has much left with that shoulder, that Young will make it or Viscaino can't be easily replaced by solid young pitchers within the organization. With all starters except El Duque throwing 200 plus innings last year, we needed an insurance policy...personally I hope we stand pat. Uribe is on the verge of greatness, imo and no SS has a better arm.
Btw, Rodgers in the Tribune yesterday agrees with Phillips. He also believes as I do that Makoviak is the best bench player in either league.
GO SOX in 2006.
I'm glad we now agree on AL and NL numbers.
FBDad...jealousy is a terrible cub fan induced 2005 (and beyond) problem.
If the Sox get Tejada for Young, Viscaino, El Duque, Uribe and Garland that would be fantastic. Only the Yankees would have a comparable line-up. If we keep things the way they are we will have 5 strong starters with 1 strong starter in the pen for long/middle relief. The Yankees can't sniff that!
There is no guarantee El Duque has much left with that shoulder, that Young will make it or Viscaino can't be easily replaced by solid young pitchers within the organization. With all starters except El Duque throwing 200 plus innings last year, we needed an insurance policy...personally I hope we stand pat. Uribe is on the verge of greatness, imo and no SS has a better arm.
Btw, Rodgers in the Tribune yesterday agrees with Phillips. He also believes as I do that Makoviak is the best bench player in either league.
GO SOX in 2006.
soxnole,
As you probably know, I've always been aware of that.
Sometimes it's just fun to argue!
Trades are fun to talk about, but some of the very best looking trades (on paper) ended up being the very worst trades (on the field)
As you probably know, I've always been aware of that.
Sometimes it's just fun to argue!
Trades are fun to talk about, but some of the very best looking trades (on paper) ended up being the very worst trades (on the field)
What I find amazing is the fact that the Sox win one title and all of a sudden they have a pitching staff equal to the best ever in baseball.
They are a fine club but let us see them win a few more titles before we use the term "best ever".
In this day and age of free agency it is very hard to be a dynasty much less repeat
They are a fine club but let us see them win a few more titles before we use the term "best ever".
In this day and age of free agency it is very hard to be a dynasty much less repeat
TR, Have to agree with that! The White Sox have done a great job and deserve any praise they get.
But... Labels like the "best ever" should be reserved for after the fact! JMO
But... Labels like the "best ever" should be reserved for after the fact! JMO
The White Sox have shown with what they have done this winter that they're not saisfied in just winning in 2005. Kenny Williams and the entire Sox organization our showing a major committment to winning for many years to come. This is a very good sign for baseball on the south side of Chicago.
To be one of the best staffs in baseball history is certainly a large claim.
I would prefer to say that both last year and this year the Sox would have to be considered one of the deepest staff's in baseball history.
Baltimore in 69-71 might have been the best with 9 20 game winners in 3 years. Their top 4 of Palmer, Cuellar, Flanagan and Stone were pretty amazing...but not as deep after those fellows as the current Sox.
The 59 Dodgers and 54 Indians had great starters and those Dodgers had solid relief. In my estimation they would be the chief competition to the current Sox as "deepest" ever, with the 69-74 A's and late 90's Yankees next.
During the home run/steroid era, depth is something MLB teams have lacked in the pitching department.
I would prefer to say that both last year and this year the Sox would have to be considered one of the deepest staff's in baseball history.
Baltimore in 69-71 might have been the best with 9 20 game winners in 3 years. Their top 4 of Palmer, Cuellar, Flanagan and Stone were pretty amazing...but not as deep after those fellows as the current Sox.
The 59 Dodgers and 54 Indians had great starters and those Dodgers had solid relief. In my estimation they would be the chief competition to the current Sox as "deepest" ever, with the 69-74 A's and late 90's Yankees next.
During the home run/steroid era, depth is something MLB teams have lacked in the pitching department.
The Sox starting rotation is the deepest in the AL. When you have all that pitching, it also makes it easier to make more trades. Williams has patiently helped set the Sox up for many years of continued success.
Just for fun let’s compare the Sox present pitching staff to the 1998 Braves pitching staff.
Starters – 1998 Atlanta Braves - Starting rotation
RHP Greg Maddux – 18-9 2.22 ERA (4 time Cy Young) future hall of famer) 300+ game winner
LHP Tom Glavine – 20-6 2.47 ERA (2 time Cy Young and that year) Should win 300+ and hall of famer
LHP Denny Neagle – 16-11 3.55 ERA (was 20-1 the year before)
RHP Kevin Millwood – 17-8 4.08 ERA (was 23 at the time and has won 95 games since)
RHP John Smoltz – 17-3 2.09 ERA Cy Young winner (Potential hall of famer)
The rest of that staff included:
RHP Dennis Martinez 4.45 ERA (245 career wins)
RHP Kerry Ligtenberg 2.71 ERA 30 saves
LHP John Rocker 2.13 ERA (before he went nuts, he was real good)
RHP Mike Cather 3.92 ERA
RHP Rudy Saenz 2.75 ERA
Also on that staff:
RHP Mark Wohlers (100+ mph)
RHP Russ Springer
LHP Bruce Chen
LHP Alan Embree
LHP Norm Charlton
LHP Odalis Perez
This staff had at least 3 that one could argue might end up in the Hall of Fame. And several others who were all stars during their career. Oh and this staff had 3 Cy Young Award winners.
Starters – 1998 Atlanta Braves - Starting rotation
RHP Greg Maddux – 18-9 2.22 ERA (4 time Cy Young) future hall of famer) 300+ game winner
LHP Tom Glavine – 20-6 2.47 ERA (2 time Cy Young and that year) Should win 300+ and hall of famer
LHP Denny Neagle – 16-11 3.55 ERA (was 20-1 the year before)
RHP Kevin Millwood – 17-8 4.08 ERA (was 23 at the time and has won 95 games since)
RHP John Smoltz – 17-3 2.09 ERA Cy Young winner (Potential hall of famer)
The rest of that staff included:
RHP Dennis Martinez 4.45 ERA (245 career wins)
RHP Kerry Ligtenberg 2.71 ERA 30 saves
LHP John Rocker 2.13 ERA (before he went nuts, he was real good)
RHP Mike Cather 3.92 ERA
RHP Rudy Saenz 2.75 ERA
Also on that staff:
RHP Mark Wohlers (100+ mph)
RHP Russ Springer
LHP Bruce Chen
LHP Alan Embree
LHP Norm Charlton
LHP Odalis Perez
This staff had at least 3 that one could argue might end up in the Hall of Fame. And several others who were all stars during their career. Oh and this staff had 3 Cy Young Award winners.
I think Smoltz gets in for the same reasons Dennis Eckersly got in - imho. That Braves staff was unbelievable.
The 1954 Indians were considered one of the greatest of all time. They won 111 games. The only downer was they lost the WS in four games to Willie Mays and the NY Giants. The staff included:
Bob Feller
Bob Lemmon
Mike Garcia and
Early Wynn
One of the Orioles staffs in the late 60's or early 70's had 4 twenty game winners in the same season
Jim Palmer
Mike Cuellar
Pat Dobson
Dave McNally (sp)
The 1954 Indians were considered one of the greatest of all time. They won 111 games. The only downer was they lost the WS in four games to Willie Mays and the NY Giants. The staff included:
Bob Feller
Bob Lemmon
Mike Garcia and
Early Wynn
One of the Orioles staffs in the late 60's or early 70's had 4 twenty game winners in the same season
Jim Palmer
Mike Cuellar
Pat Dobson
Dave McNally (sp)
Great staffs...but only the 54 Indians and 69 O's won the Big Show.
No one threw like the Sox did when it counted most.
I'll take that 54 Indian starting 4 as the best ever.
No one threw like the Sox did when it counted most.
I'll take that 54 Indian starting 4 as the best ever.
soxnole,
I enjoy talking baseball with you This years White Sox were certainly outstanding - especially when it counted most. Can't remember the Yankees staff from 1998? that won 125 games and the World Series. They also eclipsed the Indians regular season record of 111 games from 1954 - although the Indians record was achieved in 154 games.
I enjoy talking baseball with you
This years White Sox were certainly outstanding - especially when it counted most. Can't remember the Yankees staff from 1998? that won 125 games and the World Series. They also eclipsed the Indians regular season record of 111 games from 1954 - although the Indians record was achieved in 154 games.
Soxnole,
The 69 Orioles lost to the Amazin' Mets. But you are correct about their pitching staff, in 1970, however, when they won the WS. Staff ERA was 3.15, better than the 98 Braves at 3.25. Those 54 Indians had a stingy 2.78 ERA.
FROM THE HISTORIC BASEBALL ARCHIVES
The 1906 Cubs: The pitching staff was simply outstanding. The Cubs led all of baseball with a team 1.76 earned run average and allowed just 381 runs on the season. Six pitchers finished with double-digit victories - Three Finger Brown (26), Jack Pfiester (20), Ed Reulbach (19), Carl Lundgren (17), Orvie Overall (12) and Jack Taylor (12).
Brown also led all pitchers with an amazing 1.04 ERA -- the lowest ERA ever posted by a pitcher with at least 250 innings. It was the beginning of his six-year run of winning at least 20 games for the Cubs.
By the end of the season, the Cubs had won 116 games and dominated the National League.
The 69 Orioles lost to the Amazin' Mets. But you are correct about their pitching staff, in 1970, however, when they won the WS. Staff ERA was 3.15, better than the 98 Braves at 3.25. Those 54 Indians had a stingy 2.78 ERA.
FROM THE HISTORIC BASEBALL ARCHIVES
The 1906 Cubs: The pitching staff was simply outstanding. The Cubs led all of baseball with a team 1.76 earned run average and allowed just 381 runs on the season. Six pitchers finished with double-digit victories - Three Finger Brown (26), Jack Pfiester (20), Ed Reulbach (19), Carl Lundgren (17), Orvie Overall (12) and Jack Taylor (12).
Brown also led all pitchers with an amazing 1.04 ERA -- the lowest ERA ever posted by a pitcher with at least 250 innings. It was the beginning of his six-year run of winning at least 20 games for the Cubs.
By the end of the season, the Cubs had won 116 games and dominated the National League.
Thanks for the correction/info, 1228.
I can't resist adding that those 1906 cubs were beaten soundly by the Chicago White Sox in the World Series.
I can't resist adding that those 1906 cubs were beaten soundly by the Chicago White Sox in the World Series.
That's funny! So can a staff be the best if it doesn't win the World Series? That eliminates the 98 Braves.
How about the World Champion 2000 New York Yankees
Starters
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
David Cone
Orlando Hernandez (hmmmm)
Denny Neagle (hmmm)
Relief
Mariano Rivera
Jeff Nelson
Mike Stnton
Jason Grimsley
Others
Ramiro Mendoza
Dwight Gooden
Todd Erdos
Allen Watson
Ben Ford ()
Ted Lilly
Jake Westbrook
And some others
Starters
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
David Cone
Orlando Hernandez (hmmmm)
Denny Neagle (hmmm)
Relief
Mariano Rivera
Jeff Nelson
Mike Stnton
Jason Grimsley
Others
Ramiro Mendoza
Dwight Gooden
Todd Erdos
Allen Watson
Ben Ford (
)Ted Lilly
Jake Westbrook
And some others
Great staff that year but not a staff of a dynasty, at least in my opinion.
I do not think that in todays market and game we will ever see a dynasty
If Garland is so good why is he being mentioned in a trade talks? Just a question for those in the know, supposedly in CHiSox town
I do not think that in todays market and game we will ever see a dynasty
If Garland is so good why is he being mentioned in a trade talks? Just a question for those in the know, supposedly in CHiSox town
Garland's name came up because his agent asked for money than anyone else on the staff earns... He's good but not that good... Rumor has it that Garland and Crede could be traded to Texas for Blalock and Wilkerson... or Garland and Uribe to Baltimore for Tejada... Its probably just posturing on both sides... Time will tell...
PG - was that the staff I referred to earlier in this thread that won 125 games? Did Ben get a ring that year? If so, what a thrill
TR,
I agree
Actually the most important Yankee pitcher "to me" had a 9 ERA in limited duty that year.
But Roger and Rivera aint a bad start.
I agree
Actually the most important Yankee pitcher "to me" had a 9 ERA in limited duty that year.
But Roger and Rivera aint a bad start.
ClevelandDad,
They did win it all that year, but they didn't win 100 games. Ben was traded for Glen Allen Hill at mid season and did not get a ring. Hill hit some big HRs that year that helped them win the pennant.
They did win it all that year, but they didn't win 100 games. Ben was traded for Glen Allen Hill at mid season and did not get a ring. Hill hit some big HRs that year that helped them win the pennant.
Thanks PG!
Ok, I went and looked it up myself. It was the 1998 Yankees.
Andy Pettitte and the New York Yankees put the finishing touch on their most dominant season by beating the San Diego Padres 3-0 for a record 24th World Series championship. It was New York's second title in three years and its first sweep since 1950. The Game 4 victory gave the Yankees 125 wins. Their 114 regular-season victories were the most ever for a champion.
Ok, I went and looked it up myself. It was the 1998 Yankees.
Andy Pettitte and the New York Yankees put the finishing touch on their most dominant season by beating the San Diego Padres 3-0 for a record 24th World Series championship. It was New York's second title in three years and its first sweep since 1950. The Game 4 victory gave the Yankees 125 wins. Their 114 regular-season victories were the most ever for a champion.
The Cleveland Indians just signed Danny Graves from Cincinnati today. Cleveland is on the right track, but I still feel the Sox are atleast five games better then the Indians going into 06.
No argument here grandslam. That is even more optimistic than me. We have lost so far Millwood, Howry, Elarton, and replaced them with Byrd and Graves. Sounds like treading water to me at best.
Will Garland lose his hunger for success now that he has tasted $ucce$$?
No garland will be just fine.
Just a bit concerned with the rumblings that the Sox are considering moving Contreras in light of his performance in the last few months of last year and into the playoffs....
Understand that he is the only one unsigned beyond next year.
Understand that he is the only one unsigned beyond next year.
Yeah but they are a bit crowded at that spot. Contract status has always been a big deal for the Sox. Contreras to the Cubs for Neffi Perez.
Why mess with the best staff in baseball?
Some of the top experts in the game were comparing the Sox staff to the best ever after the Series. Now were even better. Let McCarthy work long relief until 1 of the top 5 experience some trouble or an injury.
Some of the top experts in the game were comparing the Sox staff to the best ever after the Series. Now were even better. Let McCarthy work long relief until 1 of the top 5 experience some trouble or an injury.
We watched game 2 of the WS replay on Comcast last night. I don't think Pod's walk-off right after McCarver says that the bad taste is out of Lidge's mouth will ever get old.
and...it's funny now (aggravating then), when Joe Buck (complete nimrod) snarl's virtually every time the Sox make a play, get a call or hit a HR!
White Sox vs N.Y. Mets. This is the 2006 World Series. You heard it here first! Ramirez to the Mets. The Mets have to be the favorites in the N.L. next season.