2014 Questions

I think that:

Not getting feedback=not interested

Getting personalized communication=interested

Getting mass-mailed camp information=nothing

I totally agree.

However, when a coach says he will give you feedback he should keep his word.

They should then take us off their email list too.

Bill makes a good point.   All he wants is an honest evaluation of his kid's ability to determine the direction that he should take.  Problem is that once the school looks at his son and determines they do not have an interest (for whatever reason), the evaluation process usually stops.  All of us parents of 2014s are wanting accurate feedback to help us determine what action to take next.  We went to PG, and are going to Stanford and Headfirst Camps to help with that process, but it is costing a load of cash for camp and travel.  What other good alternatives are there?

Aleebaba nailed it! Thank you.

He is getting great looks from DIII schools and has been invited to at least two campuses. Problem is they are so  expensive.

Love to hear alternatives too.

The OP said

"We did attend a well known camp last year and basically we were told he is a mid to high DII kid and maybe a lower tier D1 kid. The person doing the evaluation is an mlb scout and completely unbiased."

I think that is an honest evaluation to determine the direction to take.

PG has a good reputation. Did they give Aleebaba's son an evaluation?

I think if a 2014 is wondering in June 2013 if he is D1 material, the chances are better than 50:50 he isn't.

To compound things, sometimes coaches do send mixed messages to kids.  Our son attended a D1 school's camp in Dec. and spent about an hour talking one on one with the RC about their program and expectations for their recruits.  The RC pulled our son aside after the camp and told him that his catching looked good and his batting looked good and they would like to keep in touch by email.  Our son emailed thanking them for the camp and asking for specific feedback on performance and got no answer.  He sent a follow up email asking for feedback and was told that they keep all evaluations private for recruiting purposes.  He received floods of emails and phone calls from the admissions department, but nothing from the baseball program.  We decided that the coaches were not interested in our son and decided to move on.  He received two different form emails inviting him to camps this summer/fall recently.  We have decided not to allow our son to attend unless he receives something more personalized, although he still feels they might be interested.  I hope this is the right call because this school would be a great fit if our son could play baseball there.

What is hard as parents is that we do not want to cause our son to lose out on opportunities because we misread the tea leaves, but we also don't want to spend money chasing something unrealistic.  This is why honest feed back is so important while working through this process. I know coaches are busy, but how long does it take to type "hey, thanks for your interest, but you do not have the skills that we are looking for at this time.  Good luck and you may want to look at a D2?

2014 Prospect, I get what you are saying. But.......

Tea leaves, schmea leaves. College coaches are not exactly known to be shrinking violets.If they are interested, I guarantee the kid and parents will know it.

I think it would be very rare for a coach who is not interested in a kid to say the kid doesn't have the requisite skills. Who knows, the kid might blossom late. The coach's roster could change. There may be a transfer opportunity down the road. It does a coach no good to say that. Instead they say nothing and expect most parents and kids know what that means

Personally, I would get no greater satisfaction from a note saying my kid isn't good enough, than just silence. But I realize I may be in the minority on this

We went to a University of Richmond camp and they gave us excellent feedback. It was short and sweet but the coaches were very open and honest. They very politely said they have no real interest but did have a little constructive input.

That is all we are asking for when we drop $$$$ to attend one of their camps.

My son attended one mid level D1 camp and after the hitting ALL four coaches came up and talked to him and told him they really liked how he hit. He smoked all 8 pitches one after the other. He sent an email as a follow up saying thank you and asked for any additional feedback. No response at all. Keep in mind this was just a hitting camp so they had yet to see him throw or run. They also did not promise feedback so no big deal.

When schools host camps and charge real money the least they should send out is  an automatic email thanking you for attending the camp but we have no interest at this time. Keep working hard.

When the head coach responds specifically to a question regarding feedback and says absolutely we will get back to you, that is just wrong when there is NO response.

I agree that camps should deliver what they promise to deliver, and people should do what they say they will do.

Action points:

1. You probably do not want to attend this camp again

2. Consider asking for some or all of your money back

3. You probably would want to turn down an offer from a coach like the one you describe if he ever does contact your son.

You also have to understand the recruiting rules around e-mails and the kids age.  The parent and kid are treated as one for recruiting purposes.  So no response maybe because they can't respond because the kid isn't old enough yet.

I think you nailed it.  July 1, 2013 is the start of contact period for 2014s I think.  (Someone please correct me if I am wrong!)

The player can contact the coach anytime, so maybe the player can call...and hope to catch the coach (the coach can't call back).   July 1 is just 11 days away.

I have noticed some camps now indicating they will not give written evaluations.

Time out.

Baseball coaches may contact prospects in writing as of Sept 1 of their junior year.

Baseball coaches may initiate calls as of July 1 prior to senior year..

Baseball coaches may talk or write to players in connection with camps anytime.

Thanks.  That clarifies phone calls, written letters, and camp info.  I was referring to phone calls/texts  in my prior post, but I wasn't clear about that.

Think of coaches like you would when dating a girl..when they dont answer or respond they are not interested...do you really want your uninterested girl of  choice to tell you all your shortcoming or just be nice and say they just dont have time right now...recruiters are not meant to be your friends at all times. they have 2 jobs..get a player then replace that same player as fast as they can..they are all trying to climb the ladder as well as your kid is. They dont want to be RC for life

Funny I was going to use same analogy earlier today. 

I agree that PG has a good reputation and gives good evaluations, which they did and will do for my son.  I was talking about the camp referenced in topic.

As for claim that D1 concerns for 2014 should already be answered, how so if no feedback provided?  There are lots of D1 schools waiting in the wings for the big boys to finish their recruiting, and a few emails from D1 schools does not confirm son will be signed by one.

If a 2014 has no feedback from D1 schools as of June 19, 2013, I'm sticking to my guns and saying chances are better than 50:50 he is not D1 material.........unless he is a hermit or something.

No feedback means no interest. Feedback means interest which may or may not materialize in an offer. A kid can know if he has D1 potential if he is getting contacted by D1 coaches.

The OP should know his kid's general slot. He posted that the MLB scout who saw the OP's kid said low D1, high D2. The coach who ran the camp and gave no feedback, for whatever reason, apparently has no interest, in my opinion

I did not say he has had NO feedback from D1 coaches. My comment is based on a coach or coaches who say absolutely you will get feedback and do not follow up.

Just for the record a Royals scout believes my son can absolutely play at the D1 level and  sent a note to at least one mid level D1 school on his behalf. Also keep in mind the  evaluation was made last summer and my son has gotten faster and gained another 2-3 mph. The Royals scout saw my son play last fall after the other evaluation.

My beef is the mixed signals and lack of follow through when the coaches say they will be back in touch. Obviously schools like that are off the list.

We the parents spend a lot of money and time and for a coach to not keep his word is unacceptable.

BTW, my son does need to be more assertive and outgoing when communicating with the coaches. He is not a hermit but does lean that way until you get to know him. Then he may talk your ear off

Are you going to be in touch with the coach to tell him his school is off the list or just not provide feedback?  Just joking.

Sure, people should do what they say they will do, but look at it positively. You found out that the school is not one you want to follow up with, and that the school is apparently not interested in your son. That has some value.

Green Light,

I just come down on the other side of most everything you have posted...way on the other side.

No interest does not equate to not a DI player.  To be candid, there are some being recruited for the 2014 year who will turn out not to be DI "material."  They might be as many not being recruited at this point who will turn out to be DI "material."

College recruiting is, at best, a highly inexact process. Recruiting does not define the player who finally ends up stepping on a college baseball field in 2-3 years.

I can assure you that in California there are close to as many recruits with DI potential not being recruited as being recruited.  Three main reasons are the depth of quality players, mostly regional recruiting in college baseball, and the actual number of DI slots which open in CA programs each year.

Except for the players at the top levels,  no one should be making projections or predictions on who is or is not a DI player or DI material in June of 2013.One clear reason why is the Stanford Camp will take place in the next two weeks.  Coaches from all over the United States will be traveling to Palo Alto and plenty of Di material and talent will be identified. Not all of those players will end up in DI programs, but there are reasons other than talent for that result.

That's cool.We can agree to disagree.

Sticking to my guns that if a 2014 has had no feedback from D1 schools by now, chances are better than 50:50 he is not D1 material. (The other side of that argument can't be right, can it? If a 2014 hasn't heard from D1 by now he is odds-on to play D1?)

As for Stanford Camp (which is the gold standard in my opinion) I don't think it is as much about identifying 2014 talent in July 2013 as confirming it. Coaches can't see everyone there. They are going to be focusing on the kids who are already on their lists. Can lightning strike? Sure. But less than 50:50 chance I think.

Green Light,

I would normally not respond and would move on agreeing to disagree.  I won't at this point because I don't want the OP to have a view of the "D1 material" importance of the recruiting process in the ways your posting is creating.

Our son is a DI assistant coach. He has been identifying DI talent to recruit up through the AZL games in late September/October and he loves finding those guys when he is on the fields at 8am or 10pm in 110 degree heat with not a lot of competition.

Using our son as one example, but there are plenty more, he attended the Stanford All-Star Camp.  His camp summary concluded he was a mid-level D! talent but his size and especially his slight build were an issue.  Well, following the Camp, he got nothing in terms of DI recruiting. The coach who wrote his review recruited him to a D3 in Texas and placed him in the NECBL.  During 2 Summers of playing there, our son was recruited by several D1's including some in the ACC.  In contrast, one of the top recruits from that same camp was about 6'4" and he was recruited by everyone.  He ended up attending 4 schools in 5 years of college and less than 50 AB's.

College recruiting of HS players in the Summer of 2013 does not equate with DI material stepping onto a college field in the Fall of 2014, in any meaningful or reliable manner except at the the elite levels of talent.

I may be dead wrong here, but I was under the impression that Division 1 coaches may only talk to a potential recruit when they are on campus (until July 1).  Hence, a camp allows that exposure.  Once the kid is off campus, it is on the kid to proactively contact the coach.  Can you clarify this for me, if you know for fact it is different.

I agree with the no interest by soph year means no D! except in a few cases most of which is velocity going from say 85 to 91 thru some sort of velocity program. Or a real growth spurt due to actual growing and not taking of supplements IE roids 

I am aware of a high school underclassman calling and leaving a voicemail with regard to a camp and getting a call back from a coach. We all know that pre-July 1 for rising seniors this would be prohibited in other contexts.

I am not sure if this communication was completely consistent with the rules. You raise an interesting issue, maybe someone else can clarify for us

IFDad,

I really think we agree. 50:50 doesn't equal zero. Unless you are ready to say that 2014s who haven't had any feedback from D1 coaches by now are odds-on to get a D1 offer, then we agree!

As for quantifying how many kids who get ignored at the D1 level out of high school eventually make it to D1, I think that is a separate and very interesting issue. What is your opinion? Does this happen most of the time? 10%? 20%?

Bill L.,

My two cents.....It is reasonable to expect feedback if the coaches told you they would provide it.  In addition it is reasonable to request feedback if you haven't heard back.  Most Dads and recruits have been in your situation and it is infuriating.  I feel for you.  However, it is probably not the last time that a coach will tell you something and not deliver.  There are many coaches who do what they say they will do, and others who have no intention of ever following up.  This was the one thing that annoyed my son to no end....when a coach said he would do something and did not follow up.  My son crossed them off his list, and there were a lot of scratches on his list.  He didn't want to play for these coaches.  Right or wrong, that was his way of dealing with it, and he'd move onto the next school or situatiuon.   I'm not suggesting you follow his method, but I think you can expect disappointment in some form or another in the process.  Unfortunately, you are experiencing it early.  In some respects, the recruits learn over time how to deal with coaches "blowing smoke up their skirts". 

"I would love to hear experiences from other DADs. Especially from those whose sons are not one of those really coveted kids playing in a really competitive D1 program."

Our recruiting experience crossed competitive D1s and elite D3s.  The treatment you received happened to us mostly with the elite D1 programs. Which in hindsight was not a bad thing.  There were plently of programs that were interested in my son beyond just his baseball skills.  Truly, I believe that is where your son will find the most interest.   You mentioned that "grades are not an issue".  My suggestion is you MAKE grades an issue (differentiate your son from others) and lead with grades to get baseball interest.  I've been there, and that way of thinking changed our whole recruiting experience around. 

Good luck and feel free to Dialog me if you want to discuss specifics.  

I know this sounds stupid but dont go to schools based on coaches go based on the school..coaches come and go. You may end up with a coach you hated coming to your school or one you loved leaving it. Play for name on front of jersey.

Sad as it seems most coaches wont or dont care what anyone thinks.

One good note though there is a school where my kid is not even close to going to because they are simply loaded and not in a state where it would be financially possilbe. This coach has always been receptive to stuff and has even offered to pass my son's information to other schools he knew. Go figure this assistant is one of the hottest in the country because he out works everyone else and even finds time for those he has no interest in. Never think more than a very few are in that group..some of them hate their jobs just like all of us hate ours LOL  

Green Light,

I think you are moving the goal posts!   I didn't comment on getting ignored out of HS.  My comments were about those not getting D1 attention in June before their senior year, which seemed to be the thrust of our interactions and difference of perspectives for the OP.  For instance, our son had no attention during the Summer before his senior year.  He ended up with more than adequate D1 attention from February of his senior year until mid-Summer before he entered college.

As to how many have no attention until they walk onto a college field at some level, the answer might depend on whether we include or don't include JC players. Scott Feldman, for instance, had nothing out of HS. He went to San Mateo JC, lost about 60lbs. was a high pick as a sophomore and is now pitching for the Cubs.

RJM, I think, has posted that something like 50% of D1 players transfer from the school which recruited them. Some percentage of that group were recruited by their junior year of HS and turned out not to be D1 "material."

How many are like our son who were not recruited by June before their senior year, go D3, D2, or NAIA  but  end up being D1 "material" is impossible to know at this point because of the one year sit rule for any of them attempting to transfer to D1.

I could hazard an estimate that 1 in 4 players at the top 30-40 D3 programs is D1 material.  At the top D2's, my estimate is 4-5 of each 9 starters is D1 material.  This also recognizes "D1 material" includes over 300 programs.

For the OP, my comments are meant to be encouraging, if D1 is the goal. I continue to advocate that  players and parents should not feel the D1 recruiting process defines their talent level by June before their senior year.

Not moving goal posts. This is about the third time I am saying that if a 2014 has had no feedback from D1 schools by now, chances are better than 50:50 he is not D1 material.

Now if you define D1 material as1 out of 4 players in the top D3 programs plus 4-5 starters at D2..............well those aren't my goal posts, they are yours.

My comments are not meant to be encouraging or discouraging. They are meant to reflect the facts for the Board as best as my experience informs me.

The thing you stated about adequate D1 attention (not sure if you mean D1 plus half of D2 starters plus 1/4 of top D3 here) from February of senior year until the following summer is something that is more of an exception than a likelihood to me.....if we are talking about the traditional definition of D1. I am glad you pointed this out and I will inquire further how common this is.

Many 2014 grads---not all but many---should have a fairly solid understanding at this stage of where their talent is, and where it isn't.  Yes, there will be exceptions as some talent emerges later and that can certainly impact a player's Division I recruiting prospects.  My youngest son was a fringe DIII player at best at the start of his junior year but developed over the next 8-10 months, generated serious Division I recruiting interest in June, and committed to a DI program before July 1.  What drove his recruiting success in large part was that we had focused on a targeted list of schools that accurately reflected his student-athlete profile; despite interest developing from other Division I schools, we relied on that profile and didn't stray from it regardless of how tempting those other opportunities seemed to be. 

But although exceptions will always exist, and some Division I programs will be recruiting players this fall once their "A List" recruits choose other schools thus providing potential opportunity for "B List" players, the recruiting process has accelerated for sure, and the advent of camps, showcases, and high profile tournaments makes it much easier for a Division I recruiter to identify, and snag, talent much earlier.  If June may be a bit too early to draw conclusions regarding a player's Division I recruiting prospects, Labor Day would generally represent the end of Phase I---largely the domain of Division I---of the recruiting process with Phase II of the journey---the Division II and III phase---starting to quickly heat up at that time.  But beware---don't take DII and DIII for granted as more and more of these programs are becoming aggressive earlier as well.  And with Division I roster caps producing a trickle down effect, the talent levels at DII and DIII have been elevated making a player's odds of being recruited even more of a challenge. 

For many 2014 grads (2015 grads should pay attention), the need to acquire a firm, realistic grasp of your current tools is essential in order to best target and manage time and resources in the months ahead.  Obtain an honest, no-holds-barred evaluation (the first step I take with any new player I tutor) from a qualified source, maybe several sources, as this is not the time to be overly sensitive, your college future, and your family budget, may depend on it.  From there, develop your own customized plan for the next 4-6 months; if you are aren't an obvious Division I talent, then focus on the DII and/or DIII world.  If your tools are still emerging however, and Division I interest has a chance to genuinely grow by the end of the summer, get in front of a Division I audience but please be smart about it.  Tools and talent drive the recruiting process, and knowing for sure what your baseball abilities truly entail at this moment will be the key to your decision-making and eventual recruiting success. 

Regarding feedback, communications, lack of frankness, etc., from some college coaches, that is the nature of the beast and it isn't going to change much.  Camps---although invaluable for many players if selected correctly---are money-makers and some coaches will string you along.  Sadly, deception is not uncommon, and don't ever expect some coaches to show you the courtesy that you have earned...not going to happen, and you will drive yourself crazy thinking otherwise.  But you can take greater control of this process, and that starts with educating yourself about it, doing your homework along the way, not succumbing to the hype, accessing the experience and wisdom of others, and embracing a hefty dose of reality as the process unfolds. 

I endorse the points in Wally's post 100%.

Absolutely true that the D1 recruiting process is not over in June. At the same time, players who are not on the radar of any D1 schools by June....no contact, no feedback, no input.......are going to have an uphill battle to convert that off-the-radar situation into an offer in the September time frame. Possible? Yes. Probable? No.

As far as the point in a prior post about there being adequate D1 attention between February--June of SENIOR year.....after calling around a bit, my initial opinion that this is not something any young player should count on was confirmed

As coach May has said "if they are interested in your son you will know it"

As my wife has said (many times) "Baseball coaches are a bunch of used car salesmen"

"borderline D1 player" is a nice way of saying you will not play D1 ball.  

As far as feedback the only two places my son received real feedback was at a PG event and the Stanford Camp. All the others said they would and did not. Coaches say they will call and some do and some don't. 

Recruiting goes all the way up to August of the school year...

Don't take it personally it is just part of the process. Have a plan and keep working your plan. Also keep the faith, it is a very difficult process.

Good Luck!

Green Light,

There are points we keep talking around.

The first point I am reading is that the recruiting process equates to D1 material by the stage you have referenced.  To me, that is a misnomer and mistake, which gets made far too often.  The recruiting process identifies D1 potential or tools or athleticism. It also tends to have coaches see D1 talent and find reasons why it cannot succeed, especially when it comes to size and strength.  Between June following the junior year until the following August/September when these players step on a college field and compete, many of these recruits change so very, very much physically, mentally as well as in the baseball context.  Except for the elite player, recruiting is not a reliable predictor for the future and the earlier the recruiting "verbal" the more unreliable it can be as to who ends up being D1 material after they are enrolled and competing.  How many players and parents are so very disappointed less than one year after signing an NLI?.

As it relates to the February to June of the senior year of HS, no one said anyone should wait or expect something to magically appear at that point.  My perspective is a student-athlete, if they can play in college, should  have an least one program and coaching staff which "loves" them by that point.  Working from a non-D1 stable college choice, openings happen at the D1 level during the period in question..

Again, if we accept the postings from RJM that roughly 1/2 of all D1 baseball players transfer, that can say a lot about the recruiting process and margins for error.  Having read this board for over 10 years and been around college baseball for longer than that, a considerable portion of that transfer rate is based on players finding out they are not going to play.  It is a very tough message to hear. College baseball is becoming a tougher and tougher business. At the time many players verbal, especially at earlier and earlier times due to the sense of "pressure" which comes across well in this thread,.neither the parent nor the player has any true concept of how tough it is on a college baseball field and how challenging the business side can be, once enrolled as a student-athlete.

Bottom line for me is D1 material fis not generally defined by the recruiting process and certainly is not defined by June following the junior year in HS.

No question that many players should develop to an even larger degree by the time they arrive on campus, Mother Nature and added experience alone should have an impact on that.  And there will be examples of players producing at the next level more than their high school careers and/or recruiting experiences may have lead many college coaches to believe; I know of a young man who was completely passed over by Division I colleges, got barely as sniff while in high school, but walked on at a major Division I program a year later and became an integral part of the team's success this past season.  It happens.  The challenge however is that the bulk of the recruiting process occurs sooner than that forcing player, parent, and coach to make decisions through a crystal ball. 

As indicated, there will be exceptions at both ends---young talented players committing early while other players blossom later and enjoy a Division I opportunity.  But my experience (and my experience may differ from others of course) suggests that the pace of the recruiting process---thanks to a bevy of exposure opportunities that didn't exist a decade ago, families being more proactive, recruiters having access to a growing talent pool coast to coast, etc.---can be quicker than we like or are prepared for, and many recruiting slots (and the baseball scholarship money attached to these slots) can dry up pretty fast.  As has been touched upon in this thread, there is a potential downside to all of this and many players don't end up seeing the playing opportunity they expected, there are many horror stories out there (do your homework!).  But we live in a recruiting environment at the moment fueled by many players being identifed by college coaches sooner rather than later, and we have to seriously consider, plan for, and manage this "fact of life" or risk becoming a casualty of the process.

Two stories...I contacted a college coach in mid-August last year regarding a showcase camp he was hosting in September, an event that looked promising for some of the players in my tutoring program; the camp would feature other schools which was a big deal considering this coach told me that his own recruiting class for 2013 grads was complete (with the exception of some unknown off-the-charts talent falling on his lap), he had begun to turn his attention to the 2014 grads.  The second story...around the exact same time, I had lunch with a college coach who explained to me that, during the year and through the summer months, he had identified about four thousand potential recruits, players who fit his program's profile athletically and academically, and he had already narrowed the list of recruits to about less than 200 players; from this more targeted list, about 8-10 players would eventually commit to the program in the fall. 

The first story involves a Division II school, the second story a Division III school here in the Northeast.  Once again, there will always be exceptions but please be careful rolling the dice and waiting too long for a college baseball opportunity (hopefully several) to develop for you.  When I asked the DIII coach of any advice he would give to a high school player aspiring to compete at the next level, he did not hesitate..."tell them to be proactive!"  Regardless of where your talent may be, get your arms around this process as soon as possible, and work every day to make it happen for you...not every player fails to get recruitng because they lacked a picture-perfect swing or a knee-buckling curve ball, but because they lacked knowledge, direction, and resolve. 

Your a class act WallyL.  I have forwarded your posts to everyone on our Summer team.

This is just not true. I know plenty of kids here in Arizona who played JV as sophomores (despite some remarkable talent) with virtually no exposure and thus little recruiting interest who not only have played at a high level in the PAC 12 and elsewhere (including the College World Series) but have gone on the highly successful professional careers. A few of them have been in the Big Leagues for an extended time. If you have the talent, this will take care of itself, and where a player is as a sophomore (especially if he is in a strong high school program) does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

To answer the original post:

YOU as a PARENT should not be asking for feedback at all, aggressively or otherwise.

If your SON was interested in the school and would like feedback, he should send a politely worded e-mail expressing his interest and asking them for suggestions on what he could work on to improve as a player. 

If your son gets no reply, that's your feedback.

If your son gets some reply, whether he shares it with you is up to him.

BTW, he may have already gotten his feedback.  It may simply be that both he and the college coaches agree that feedback is for his ears and not yours.

This is the second thread I've read this morning that proceeds from the terribly erronneous assumption that the recruiting process is to be managed by the parents.  In reality, your role is very limited.  You should serve as advisor to your son (the decision maker) as to whether he is pursuing schools that are right for him academically.  To the extent your son is thinking you are going to foot whatever net bill there is, you are entitled to weigh in on anything affecting your wallet and make sure he's not presuming to spend more than you intend to spend.  And you can provide your son with any impressions you pick up along the way, since as an adult you are more experienced in reading people and seeing things coming that he might otherwise get blind sided by. 

Otherwise, your son needs to make his own choices, and he also needs to demonstrate to the college coaches that he is the kind of young man who is prepared to undertake what lies ahead of him and to push through the adversity to succeed.  That starts with him managing all communications with coaches. 

In short, the answer to your question is, BUTT OUT of such things.

Green Light - You are confident and knowledgeable in many of your posts.  Care to explain..."for the benefit of the board"...what your background is?

Parent of rising HS player?  Coach?  Parent of college or pro player?

No need to specifically identify...just unusual for a relatively new poster to have as much in the tank as you do.  I think it would be good (and helpful) for some to know where you're coming from.