Skip to main content

No argument from me on those picked this year.  Piazza probably should have made it, though. To me it isn't a real HOF until all the very best are inducted.

 

This is America... Unless someone admits it or it was proven, how do you get punished for being guilty?  Oh yea, public opinion!  Maybe all those court rooms aren't necessary.

 

I get the reason why people assume things.  I just wish the HOF elections were based on what was accomplished rather than how it was accomplished.  It's not like people will forget about all the PED use. Bottom line, they were allowed to play the games.  Those games became part of baseball history. Nobody talks about the thousands that used steroids and didn't hit a bunch of HRs or win a bunch of games. No one seems to mention them.

 

Anyway, I am very glad that baseball is trying to clean up the game. Players like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens would be in the HOF even if steroids never existed. Legal or not, like it or not, that HR competition between Sammy and Mark did a lot to create renewed interest in baseball. Let's face it, the HOF already has some cheaters and racists there based on what they accomplished on the field.

 

I hate that steroids soiled the game.  I'm sad that it ever happened.  But it did happen and in a very big way. Many should share in the blame including some that are very vocal in favor of the other side now. Character change, I guess!

Originally Posted by Midlo Dad:

Mussina is probably the closest anyone has come to the Sutton model in recent years. Well short of Blyleven or Morris, as comparisons.

Mussina: 270-153 (18 yrs) 117 games over .500... Winning % .638... 


Blyleven: 287-250 (22 yrs) 37 games 
over .500... Winning % 
.534...

Morris: 254-186 (18 yrs) 68 games over .500... Winning % .577... 

 

Sutton: 324-256 (23 yrs) 68 games over .500... Winning % .559...

 

Originally Posted by bballman:
Originally Posted by Midlo Dad:

 

Smoltz had as many wins but it took him longer to get them.  I view him as a lesser candidate than Pedro because, to be honest, for most of his career he was the # 3 guy on his own team, with the exception of the one Cy Young year.  I think his post-season performances earned him his spot, but I would not have been upset if it had taken him another year to make the cut.

 

Uhhh.... How bout the fact that the #1 & #2 starters are both 1st ballot HOFers as well.  I would venture to say that on any other team, he would have been the #1 guy.  And I'm not even sure he would be considered the #3 guy anyway, especially when it came to the post-season, although all 3 were pretty darned good.

 

His wins are almost equal to Pedro's, but he didn't start for 3 years.  Even if he only won 10 games a year during that span, he'd be at 243 - a good way ahead of Pedro.

 

BTW, Pedro's career ERA - 2.94, Smoltz - 3.33.  Pedro has him, but not by a lot.

 

Post-Season comparison?

 

Pedro - 6-4 in 10 series with a 3.46 ERA

Smoltz - 15-4 in 25 series with a 2.67 ERA

 

Just sayin.

Again, love Smoltzie.....but Pedro..... most seasons of ERA+ 200; 5th best lifetime WHIP; 6th best lifetime winning %; seven year run among best EVER.

Last edited by Marklaker

I am happy for Biggio. 

 

I didn't realize Pedro only had 219.  I am not sure about Pedro.  Not sure he is Sandy Koufax good because that must be what they reasoned by voting him in with only 219.  It seems the various HOF's make exceptions for truly exceptional talents who flame-out early e.g., Koufax and Gayle Sayers.  219 seems unreasonably low to me.

To me, Biggio was pretty distant from the mainstream media compared to NYC, Boston and even Atlanta, which I think hurts him some in the voting.  I was lucky enough to be in Houston when Biggio's number was retired a few years back.  What a celebration that was. Going through his numbers and appreciating  he played 3 very tough positions during his career demonstrates how impressive Biggio was as a player. I am with CD on this. Very much deserved.

 

Pedro is in because he's #6 all time in win percentage at .687 ahead of a lot of Hall of Famers. He was the dominant pitcher of a lengthy enough period of time. Cy Young is at .618. He's #17 in career pitchers for WAR. In adjusted ERA he's #2 all time. He has three Cy Young awards.

The Baseball Writers did a good job this year.  No complaints.  Personally, I like Piazza over Biggio but it is something I can easily understand.  Piazza has more years, and will likely make it the next couple years.  If I have one wish it would be to see Tim Raines get into the HOF.  There seems to be some support getting behind him which I find encouraging.  The fact that 4 got in this year may be a signal that the Baseball Writers and HOF are getting their sh*t together after many years of complacency.  We'll never know what was said behind closed doors, but I like the results.

Agree with Fenway.  Two of the perhaps greatest of all time pitchers.  And I'm a Houston native and watched Biggio's entire career.  Congrats to him.  Interesting read on a high school football game he played in http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...i-go-back-a-long-way

 

Two obscure facts/stats about Biggio stick in my head.

 

- Of his 3,060 hits, only one hit came on a 3 - 0 count

- One season he lead the league in plate appearances with 744, and did not hit into a double play all season

 

 

One thing that has rarely been mentioned when the debates about potential Hall of Famers came up, concerning Biggio is that he had to play in the Astrodome until 1999 which was absolutely the worst park for hitters ever, yet he still had TREMENDOUS leadoff seasons there with tons of doubles, hit by pitches, decent numbers of walks and batting averages as well as over 20 HRs a few times. Some guys on the MLB channel were comparing him to unfavorably to R Alomar statistic wise and not once did they take into account that Biggio played more than a third of his career in a park that buried hitters and Alomar was playing in Toronto and Cleveland which are hitter favored parks. That kind of stuff just makes me shake my head at some of the so called "expert" opinions. Alomar might have been slightly better and I can accept that but they were making it sound like Biggio wasn't even on the same planet.

 

There was some perception that Biggio might have been guilty of PED usage with guilt only by association with Caminiti and the unfairly punished in the voting, Bagwell. By that line of thinking then I guess Cal Ripkin must be guilty since he played with Brady Anderson who was a user and is now in the front office...go figure.

 

Anyway the voters finally got it right and I hope Piazza and even Bagwell get in next year.

 

 

Just my take on Piazza...

 

I am a life long Mets fan. And prior to MP joining the Mets, I really dd not think much of him. Remember, this is before MLB Network and games on TV every night of the week. I thought he was some Hollywood pretty boy. 

 

What I learned after he was traded was that he was a tough SOB that did his job, never complained, played through the hurt and hit the living S out of the ball. 

 

I'm sure he's about a year away. 

Originally Posted by soulslam55:

Just my take on Piazza...

 

I am a life long Mets fan. And prior to MP joining the Mets, I really dd not think much of him. Remember, this is before MLB Network and games on TV every night of the week. I thought he was some Hollywood pretty boy. 

 

What I learned after he was traded was that he was a tough SOB that did his job, never complained, played through the hurt and hit the living S out of the ball. 

 

I'm sure he's about a year away. 


The problem is that there are a number of the writer/voters who will hold being a big, strong guy in that era against them. Just based on body type, there will always be questions concerning guys like Piazza even in the absense of a scintilla of evidence of steroid use.

Originally Posted by Go44dad:

Biggio's stats line up pretty evenly with Jeter.

True, the numbers are similiar.  However it took Biggio three trys to get into HOF.  If Jeter doesn't get in on first try there will be riots and inquisitions.  That is the difference between a branded media darling in a huge market and Houston.  I'm not saying it is fair, but it is reality.  

I've always said that if there had been no Derek Jeter and Biggio had played for the Yankees, he would have gotten a farewell tour, been a first ballot Hall of Famer and been also absolutely beloved by Yankees fans. He was the same type of player as Jeter--a hustler and quite leader. He just didn't get near as many post season opportunities because he wasn't surrounded with high paid stars and free agents. As I said before, his numbers until 2000 were compiled in the worst hitters park in history.

I actually know both of these players.  Jeter simply was born to be a Yankee.  I don't think anyone would be better at handling New York.

 

Biggio would have compiled his numbers anywhere.  It's not any one statistic, maybe doubles or 3,000+ hits, but his over all numbers that really stand out if closely looked at. How about number of extra base hits?

 

If you were standing next to him, you would never suspect steroids.

 

Jeter will be and should be a first ballot HOFer. I don't think they should be compared. Didn't play the same position.

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×