56.7% of Tommy John Surgeries Now Performed on Teens 15-19

       
       
I don't believe you will see a growing gap. Most of the decent pitch restrictions are in rec organizations. Which most of the hard throwers aren't participating in. Travel and HS restrictions are a joke.

Coach as always a excellent, passionate and rationale post. 

 

I don't think we can ever eliminate injury risk since the obvious conclusion is to end the game which would be a overreaction.

 

What I do suggest is that we will find over time that there are different approaches to training and using young pitchers that mitigate the risk that exists today.  We will learn more about preventing injury and change how we do things - for that is human beings singular advantage over everything on the planet. 

 

I threw out there we may find 75 pitches is the limit as an example that is a significant change from even the lowest numbers published today.  It is nothing more than a interested observers feeling about were I think we might be heading.  It is based what I have seen over 15 years of coaching youth ball and what I have read over the 40 years since the real Tommy John.

 

Regardless of what happens on the research 17 year old kids that reach the level of 85+ will almost always push for the maximum they can.  I never could throw anywhere near that hard but it must be an incredibly powerful feeling to blow the ball past someone.  A baseball pitcher more than any other participant in team sports can change the outcome of a game all by himself.  The upshot is the stories of kids throwing 120 - 130 or pitches multiple times in short periods.  Anymore I think most folks think that is too much.

 

So my point of view is the true Window of Opportunity for kids that have the gift of a great arm is to use it wisely like any gift to maximize its potential.  It is not to push too hard too early and destroy the window.  I know there are not neat lines to go by so everyone does the best they can. 

 

Happily unlike 50 years ago if it breaks there is a high probability of getting it fixed to try again and 56.7% of the time it is on someone less than 20 years old.

 

 

Originally Posted by mcloven:

Scorekeeper, in fairness, you're a scorekeeper, he's a PHD in biomechanics...you can question it, but he didn't pull this out of thin air (Dr. Buffi has several peer reviewed studies that discuss the contribution of muscles:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340741/&nbsp 

 

Just throwing stuff out there (pardon the pun).

 

I wasn’t questioning his bones, but rather the use of the language. I don’t think he literally meant Usage restrictions are not helping, but that’s what he said, and I can see how a casual reader could misinterpret it.

 

I also understand why he’d use an 8YO study on only professional pitchers less than 26. The dearth of such studies causes that to happen. But to use such a study as the basis for making general statements applying to the entire population of the game is a bit disingenuous IMHO.

 

There’s so much of that kind of thing going on in baseball, it’s tough to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Excellent post by Coach May.

It is true.  When I was posting about the 19U travel team and them having pitch limits, I get why they do it.  A lot of the guys were not prepared.  They don't have time to really prepare guys and even if they did the players have to want to do it.  Personally, I found it strange how 18 and 19 year old guys were gripping about being sore after throwing 2 innings. Now depending on where they are trying to play college baseball in a couple of short months they may be asked to throw many pitches and they are not prepared.  My son has always set a goal to be prepared to throw 130 pitches.  Why 130 I don't know.  How a person would prepare for that specifically, again, I don't know.  

But in working with him he has certainly gotten to the point where he could go out and throw 112 or more pitches and not have meaningful soreness the next day.  That means doing things that no one else on his team does.  That means doing off day work no one else on his team is doing....and they ask him "what the heck is that for?"  So be it.

The fire in the gut can be expressed different ways.  

Originally Posted by Coach_May:

…Now some guy who has never known that. Never looked in the eyes of a 17 year old man who has spent his entire life 9? to 17 working for that window of opportunity. He is going to tell a kid "70" pitches son. Once a week. Be careful. Don't risk it. Don't over do it. That's not going to cut it. That mentality is a loser's mentality. Oh it's safer. Nothing great is ever achieved playing it safe. Not in this window that is so short….

 

In general I agree with everything you said, but it bothers me some that you characterize any and all concern as a loser’s mentality. I’ll grant you that there are many who have no idea about what it takes to climb the mountain, but that doesn’t mean everyone saying such things has no idea. I think most people expressing concern about overuse are like me and want nothing more than to give every player the opportunity to reach his zenith before having his body betray him because some jackass of a coach or jerk of a father allows him to be overused for the sake of some kind of meaningless glory.

 

But let’s assume for a bit that everyone showing any kind of concern is totally missing the mark and that you have all the right answers. Should we completely do away with any kind of pitch limits for every level of the game? If not, what should those limits be and who should be making all of those determinations?  

 

Everybody on either side of this argument can’t be wrong or right.

I don't think anyone believes I think anyone who has concerns has a loser's mentality.

Not me.  Your post was the argument for carpe diem.  It is a sound philosophy.

 

Somehow I doubt you'd have anyone on your staff running 150 pitches in an outing because at some point it really is not a prudent thing.  At 105 with 2 out in the 6th - you probably let him go one more hitter if you see enough there.

 

Maybe I miss my guess - but I doubt it.

Coach May should be the model for coaching young men.  You simply can't argue his viewpoint.  He totally understands Risk and Reward. He lives the common sense approach.

 

Nowhere did he indicate abuse is the risk required.  He just says playing it totally safe never works.  You don't get better, stronger, build more endurance, etc., by NOT pushing to reach your potential. You also don't throw the same pitcher 100+ pitches every other day.  Total safety doesn't work!  Total abuse doesn't work! Common sense needs to take control.

 

I'm not sure that anyone ever reaches their full potential at any sport.  I am positive that nobody has ever come close to their potential by playing it risk free.

 

The reason why I think guidelines are a good thing is because it is obvious many people lack common sense.

I think this is it right here.  My son is a pitcher and hates pitch counts because he thinks it is some arbitrary number.  A pitcher could be done after 50 pitches and be fatigued but another maybe can go 90 easily. I also trust my son to know when he is done, and most of his coaches have been good.  Unfortunately that is not always the case.  I have seen many crazy things over the years, and some in the past few months that are ridiculous.  I saw a coach pitch an 8 year old almost 100 pitches on a Saturday.  I actually said something to his parents sitting there, to which they responded he's fine he's a big strong kid. Okay.  The same kid then pitched again the next day another 70 pitches. What earthly reason is there for that to happen? At 8u it's just getting the ball to the plate. HS season,  a pitcher headed to play college ball this fall pitches 3 complete games in one week during playoffs going more than 100 pitches in each.  I question the common sense of coach, parent, and player in this case.  He just tore his UCL last week.  You would think people would just use better judgement, but they don't.

 

Since this issue as been in the limelight for some time now, you'd think there'd be better judgement being used.  But sometimes parents are just not that knowledgeable and depend on the judgement of coaches.  In such cases, a young player is very exposed to be misused.  And, I might point out that it's NOT just pitch count that should be a consideration, particularly at the younger ages were many of the pitchers (the the top better pitchers) tend to be two-way players where they'll be throwing a lot more than just what is done for pitching.

 

I learned my lesson quickly early when my son, in a 13u tournament game, pitched a full game to win, then the coach had him catch the next game (the whole game as it turned out).  After that second game, as we were leaving the facility my son commented that his throwing arm and shoulder "felt funny and a little sore" and tired.  After a couple of days of rest, his arm wasn't feeling much better and after a couple of weeks it persisted and so I took him to a sports doctor to check it out.  Doctor could find no damage but suggested that being so young there could easily be some as growth plates wen't mature.  He advised 3 weeks to total rest (absolutely NO throwing during that time), which was one of the hardest thing for my son to do. . . though he did get to participate by DH-ing during that time.  Ever since I was adamant about his pitch count.   10yrs later now, and his arm is going strong. . . though he hasn't pitched since his first year in college when he decided to just play middle infield.

 

One last thought concerning pitch count, though it can be an arbitrary number, it should and often does vary from one player to another.  And I feel a good coach will also take playing conditions into consideration too.  For example, pitching out in very cold or very hot weather will likely add to how the body strains to perform the act of throwing.

I am not saying I am against guidelines. Look when I coached HS baseball I never not once threw a kid on less than four days rest. I had pitch counts on all my guys. But they were different. And that depended on several factors. I was more concerned with pitches per inning to be honest with you. I was more concerned with changes in mechanics during an inning. An example would be coaching a kid for years and knowing him. Watching him throwing from a totally different arm slot in the middle of an at bat. Dropping down slightly. Facial expressions on pitches for example. How do you regulate that? Rule#1.3 If a pitcher exceeds 35 pitches in an inning he must be removed regardless of the amount of pitches thrown up to that point. Some would say if a kid has thrown that many pitches in an inning he shouldn't still be in the game. But how do you regulate common sense? Rule#1.4 If a pitcher who throws with an over the top arm motion who suddenly starts throwing from 3/4 he must be removed from the game. Rule#1.5 If a pitcher suddenly loses velocity on his fastball and his mechanics change from what is the norm for him he must be removed from the game regardless of the pitches thrown. - Like I said how do you regulate common sense?

 

What is more important? A rule that says you can only throw 85 pitches in a game. OR educating Coaches, Parents and Players? And what is more dangerous? A kid conditioned to throw 85 pitches or a kid conditioned to pitch to the level he is capable of pitching at? Hel 85 may be way too many for a kid and not enough for another. So lets limit the opportunity of one player so we don't potentially allow a clown to put another player at risk.

 

You start telling these kids they can only do this they will never know they can do that. You start training for a limit and you will never know your true limit. There should be rules. No more than 7 innings in a week. No more than 100 pitches in a week. No less than 4 days between starts. I like those rules. It allows a guy to start a game, throw to a level that is exceptable in my opinion for a well conditioned pitcher and ensures he has the proper amount of time between his starts to adequately prepare for his next outing. Should a Freshman be throwing 100 pitches in a game? Not in my opinion. Not even a Soph. Common baseball sense tells me that he has plenty of time during his window of opportunity to work up to that level. Again "common baseball sense?"

 

No matter what rules or guidelines that are put in place they will never replace common baseball sense. They will never regulate into a coach that the player is more important than the game. There will still be kids taking infield and making multiple throws in practice on Mon, playing SS on tuesday, taking ground balls and making multiple throws, Pitching on Weds (staying within the rules on pitches), taking infield and throwing on Thursday, playing SS on Friday. In this scenario he was within the guidelines. He only pitched once that week. He only threw 85 pitches. What's the problem?

 

The problem is no baseball common sense. We have to educate Coaches, Parents and players. We have to treat these young men as individuals. We have to care more about the player than winning a game. We can't simply put some rules in place and think that is going to solve the issue. Train to throw the max amount of pitches with the greatest amount of ability to have success. In other words carry 1,000 bullets even though you know your only going to need 100.

 

Who is going to regulate what the recovery and prep program is for each pitcher between starts? Who is going to regulate mechanics? You can not regulate common sense into someone. And the problem with regulation is for every kid you potentially save you potentially hurt another. So Jimmy leaves HS with a healthy arm. He never has any issues later in life. And Bobby was limited to reaching his full potential and misses his window of opportunity and enjoys fly fishing with his healthy elbow.

 

I prefer to use common baseball sense. Educate others on common baseball sense. And have a basic guideline in place that does not limit the opportunity for players.

 

 

Originally Posted by Coach_May:

I don't think anyone believes I think anyone who has concerns has a loser's mentality.

 

I’m sorry, but how can you say this:

 

…Now some guy who has never known that. Never looked in the eyes of a 17 year old man who has spent his entire life 9? to 17 working for that window of opportunity. He is going to tell a kid "70" pitches son. Once a week. Be careful. Don't risk it. Don't over do it. That's not going to cut it. That mentality is a loser's mentality. Oh it's safer. Nothing great is ever achieved playing it safe. Not in this window that is so short…

 

Then say what you said in this post?

 

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say care needs to be taken on both sides of the argument not to make blanket statements or exaggerate? I know how difficult that is to do because I’m guilty of it as much as anyone, but I do try to be careful.

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

Not me.  Your post was the argument for carpe diem.  It is a sound philosophy.

 

Somehow I doubt you'd have anyone on your staff running 150 pitches in an outing because at some point it really is not a prudent thing.  At 105 with 2 out in the 6th - you probably let him go one more hitter if you see enough there.

 

Maybe I miss my guess - but I doubt it.

 

If everyone involved had Coach May’s depth of knowledge, experience, and common sense, this likely would never have become an issue. Unfortunately, carpe diem is often interpreted and implemented as little more than chest beating and testosterone expressing, and those who do that can be very dangerous to others, especially children and parents who are susceptible to emotional stress.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

…I'm not sure that anyone ever reaches their full potential at any sport.  I am positive that nobody has ever come close to their potential by playing it risk free.

 

I happen to agree about the doubt of anyone actually reaching their “full potential” in anything, not just sports. But I just don’t see anyone looking to make anything “risk free”! Mitigate the risks, sure. But get rid of them completely? I haven’t seen it and I’ve been looking a very long time.

 

The reason why I think guidelines are a good thing is because it is obvious many people lack common sense.

 

And who is it that has a very different way of looking at the guidelines? The problem isn’t that there should be guidelines. That used to be a huge issue, but over the last 20 years or so, so much has been learned, the old dinos who don’t want anyone infringing on how they want to run their team have pretty much either been educated or eradicated. The problem is, too many people have different ideas of what the right approach is and what the limits should be.

"some guy"  that would not be "all guys"

But regardless thanks for pointing that out. I will def take your advice and try and be more careful. And I certainly do not want to distract from the thread.

 

 

 

From Coach May:

The problem is no baseball common sense. We have to educate Coaches, Parents and players. We have to treat these young men as individuals. We have to care more about the player than winning a game. We can't simply put some rules in place and think that is going to solve the issue. Train to throw the max amount of pitches with the greatest amount of ability to have success. In other words carry 1,000 bullets even though you know your only going to need 100.

 

This is true.  When I decided to become a youth (daddy ball) coach, the concept of pitch counts was gaining traction and the internet was still dial up.  Nevertheless the other coaches and myself believed that taking care of the arms of kids 9-12 years old was one of our top priorities. 

 

So we read what was available and were fairly rigid in trying to follow the guidelines.  We generally stayed on the low side because our attitude toward 9-12 year old baseball was it was our job to teach as much as we could but to hand them off in one piece to the HS coach. 

 

Since we were paying attention we saw with most of our kids that at 50-55 pitches they started to fade.  We had a couple that were closer to 70.  Some kids could go 30 today and 30 tomorrow, while others could never go back to back.  We used them accordingly.

 

I knew very early on that there were other guys on the other side of the field that had forgotten more baseball than I ever knew.  Only once did we have a 12 year old over 90 pitches and we were panicking at the end.  All the guys we played against did run their kids to 90 and 110.  Saw a 9 year old throw 129 once.  He had TJ at 10 years old. 

 

Did we win as much as we could have?  Nope.  As Coach says winning a 12U tournament game just didn't seem that important to be pushing harder than the guidelines we had and came to feel comfortable with. 

 

Maybe it was luck but I am grateful that I never had to look a kid in the eye or his parents while he was cradling his arm because it was blown out over something I was associated with allowing.  It could be I am a coward but I feel damn good about that.

 

Coach_May,

 

None of this is about you! You and many of the other coaches on sites like this one are the “gold standard” among coaches, but there are literally tens of thousands of coaches and millions of parents out there who are more like the “lead standard”. The problem here is, it takes a lot of time and effort to acquire the knowledge to overcome the ignorance, but there’s always new people entering the stream, and they need to kept under constraints until they’ve gained all the acumen you have.

 

This is such a difficult thing because many people in your position take it as a personal affront, when it’s no such thing. So rather than working “with” the system and using whatever restrictions are imposed, and “tweaking” them when they can be better, many come out in attack mode, fighting them tooth and nail by picking at every point. It ends up being counter-productive and causes real and meaningful progress take longer to get to and implement.

 

I for one happen to agree with you wholeheartedly that:We have to educate Coaches, Parents and players. We have to treat these young men as individuals. Sadly though, that’s a lot more difficult than just saying it needs to be done. Heck, I think everyone wishes those governing us would somehow learn the same things about each of us, but that’s only a dream. So, you do what you can do in order to make whatever progress is possible, even though it may be just a very small step.

 

The day you can guarantee every coach has your “bones” I’ll wholeheartedly accept using  common baseball sense. Unfortunately, common sense isn’t quite as common as it needs to be to just drop all restrictions and trust that everyone will do the right thing.

I certainly would never say we need to drop all restrictions. I don't want to restrict the development of players either. My experience is limited to what I have actually seen and heard. I have seen arms abused. I have seen players ability to reach their full potential restricted as well. I think if we are going to have a discussion about rules, regulations, restrictions, etc - We also need to have a discussion about making sure we don't allow "some" knucklehead to limit our players ability to reach his full potential as well.

 

Yes common sense should probably be renamed to "uncommon sense." But that doesn't mean we still can't strive for that as well. And that's all I am really trying to say.

The problem here is how many "organizations"....high schools, babe ruth leagues, travel ball teams etc....are really equipped to invest in player development?  Very few I would think.  If, for example, a travel ball team was able to properly invest in player development....have access to a PT, have a weight lifting program, have coaches and trainers on staff to handle programming for individual players, have skilled position/pitching/hitting coaches....how many parents would be willing to pay the additional cost and how many players would really be willing to do the extra work? 

So, the easiest thing to do is put in limits and cover that end of it.  Ultimately I think the development part of the equation (and the protection element as well) falls on the parents and the player.  Baseball in general is not very good at developing players.  This has everything to do with too many games and not enough training in the teen years in my humble opinion.  

Originally Posted by Coach_May:

I certainly would never say we need to drop all restrictions. I don't want to restrict the development of players either.

 

Never really thought you did. If you were “God of Baseball” and wanted to do something to protect pitchers, what would you do?

 

My experience is limited to what I have actually seen and heard. I have seen arms abused. I have seen players ability to reach their full potential restricted as well. I think if we are going to have a discussion about rules, regulations, restrictions, etc - We also need to have a discussion about making sure we don't allow "some" knucklehead to limit our players ability to reach his full potential as well.

 

You can call anyone you feel is not allowing a player to reach his full potential a “knucklehead” if you like, but who’s to say when that limit has been reached? In order to really make sure every players is allowed to reach his full potential, isn’t it incumbent on making sure they all have equal access to opportunity? That includes the best facilities, the best coaching, the best nutrition, the best equipment, the best competition, and the best of everything? Or are you saying full potential in the context of the situation, where ya got make the best of what’s there??

 

Yes common sense should probably be renamed to "uncommon sense." But that doesn't mean we still can't strive for that as well. And that's all I am really trying to say.

 

I couldn’t agree more! Always strive for the best and always reach for the highest goals. Now how do we make that equal for everyone, or is that where “life isn’t always fair” comes in?

 

I love it when this topic is discussed passionately and intelligently because that’s when we find out what’s truly motivating someone. Nice job of doing that Coach_May. It’s easy to see your passion and depth of knowledge. Now if we could find a way to bottle it and sell it, we’d be billionaires many times over! It’s really too bad that everyone’s passion about the game isn’t equal to their depth of knowledge because that’s where the disconnect is.