60-yard dash speed, recruiting

joemktgson had a teammate in the same situation a few years ago: HS senior, tremendous speed, excellent contact hitter, excellent grades, etc., etc. Two factors assisted with his placement: (1) attended the year-end PG showcase, and that led to multiple conversations with multiple schools, all D1 mid-majors; and (2) based on those conversations, was able to use his network to vouch for his athletic and scholastic capabilities. 

 

It worked, and is now played with a strong D1 mid-Major that is an excellent academic institution.

Thank you for the advice. We may try that approach. He runs winter track and has occasional weekend meets, so timing may be tricky. 

Any D2, D3 interest? or are you just aiming for D1 schools... ?

I know size doesn't matter...(D1--maybe it does)

what position does your son play.?

He's primarily an outfielder but can play short and second very well. Good feedback from D1 and D3 coaches to his high school coach but nothing concrete being offered yet.  Had one D1 assistant ask why he wasn't committed yet!  But he was done with 2015 grads and did not have a spot

It is not panic time.  An OF that does't hit the ball out of the park is not usually on the top of the priority list.  That doesn't mean he's not good or won't find a spot.

 

Keep being proactive with communication.  Highlight the fact that he can run & is smart.

 

I'm having coaches ask me every day about who is still uncommitted.  So there are still spots.

 

Good luck

 

Rich

PlayInSchool.com 

Let me know if this is not true.. but from what I understand seniors can sign to play college ball up until Aug of his senior year.. 

My son has not signed and is still applying for schools, etc..he is still going to through the right fit for a school..  he has D2's, D3 and Juco interest right now.. 

 

Good Luck,

Joe

Just to bring up jlaro's question, is he interested only in DI, or is he open to JUCO or other levels?   DOes he have a profile on PG or any videos anywhere?  If he does could you send me a dialog please.

 

 

He is open to other levels, but really wants to see if D1 will work out first. He's had D1 coaches express surprise that he hasn't signed already,but they don't have spots. He's even had a D1 coach offer to make calls on his behalf. No PG profile and video is in process.

Son was quite the same. Heard a lot that he was a D1 talent, but the schools of the size and Academic offerings he was looking for were not interested. He wanted to play as a freshman. He did not think that was going to happen at the D1 level. He did not want to be just another guy on the team he wanted to be THE guyon a good competitive team. 

Some larger D1 schools came in late to the game to offer a walk on spot. The schools did not match the profile he wanted, so he thanked them for their interest and moved on. 

Agree w wanting to play as Freshman, but if they don't start doesn't mean they r not practicing, conditioning, and playing on Summer leagues in hopes to play So yr.

At bigger schools u can learn a lot and get better while u sit behind Sr. stud waiting  your turn. My son wanted  to play against higher competition and loved how his D1 school trained so he was willing to wait instead of playing at other school who wanted him. He went to their practice and players and practices were too much like HS. 

No matter where u play be prepared to take advantage of training, practices , and working on your own. You'll  get out of it what you put into it. 

I've always thought......recruited = passion + skill + exposure + persistence + luck. If your son son runs a 6.6 60yd which is pretty good (but not elite) he should get some attention from the coaches looking for that skill.  .  I question the exposure or showcases/camps/events that he attended as being the right fit for him based on your results.  .  Did he really stand out enough or did he pursue enough variety of showcases among the school types he is qualified for?  You mentioned your son is a National Honpr Society member.  You need to play that card ASAP in my honest opinion.  This may or may not be the case, but the thoughts that went through my head as I read your post.  Good luck!

 

Coachold,

 

Happy Thanksgiving!!  I think that your son's height will be an advantage to him.  Although we have read on here that height doesn't matter (and maybe in some parts of the country it doesn't), in our experience, it does.  In our area (southwest) all of the players on my son's 2014 travel team that are around his height ended up at JCs or D2s.  Only the guys 6'0 and above ended up at D1s.  On the 2015 team (same club) that took many big national tournaments (considered by many to be a dream team) there were two players around 5'8 that went D1 and the rest of the players that went D1 were 6'0 and above. 

 

A great academic/baseball D3 school to consider is Trinity Texas. 

 

Best luck to your son! 

Height is an advantage, but talent is first.

 

When I read about all the examples, not just thread, but over the years.  The first question that comes to mind is... Are those sub 6 foot tall kids going to DIII colleges more "talented" than those over 6 foot kids that are going DI?  Nobody wants tall kids unless they have talent.  Everyone wants the kids, any height, that have the most talent.

 

Is it possible that it is so simple that the overall group of 6 foot and above kids contain more talent?  Still that should never stop someone under 6 foot if they have the talent. That is why people might say size alone won't stop someone.  There are a ton of over 6 foot players that don't create any recruiting interest.  Guess those kids have no excuse.

 

Speed plays, at any size. Lack of power doesn't always play, no matter what size.  Every scout and recruiter is interested in how the ball jumps off the bat.  That is more important than a high school batting average.  To really impress a recruiter you need to show you can hit high level pitching.  In most places around the country the high school pitching is not a very high level.  Sometimes a hitter will only see one or two real talented pitchers during a high school season.  In other pockets in the country, the pitching is at a much higher level overall.  Recruiters and scouts know what those areas are.

PG,

 

Thanks for chiming in!  When you say speed plays, how fast does a player have to be before they have the advantage of speed?  What kind of power is necessary before a player is said to have power (singles in the gap? doubles? HRs?)

 

Obviously you are the expert when it comes to judging talent, and I respect your opinion.  I am not a scout or a recruiter, only the parent of a college baseball player, but from my limited experience height seemed to have an advantage. 

 

Thanks for any info that you can give!

I am just looking for perspective. I have done alot of research. Would some of you mind giving feedback on a kids 60 or just a general opinion, especially that are at or above 6'2", +/- 200lbs? I am trying to get bearing on my 2016, weakest tool.... footspeed, he is no burner. In his defense he is not going to play a position where speed will be the 1st, or 2nd tool. I also understand a lug clogs up basepaths. If he gets below 7.0 thats a huge plus, for him in particular. I understand speed less detriment for P/C. My 2016 can and does score from 2nd, but that has just developed in the last 18 months as he has grown mentally/physically. He can haul once he gets up to speed, but still is not a blazer.
This is certainly not a scientific study, but a decent sampling.......I have personal abundant knowledge/experience/education of kinetics, anatomical growth, anatomy and physiolgy, weight lifting, diet, nutrition. I just do not use my skillset for baseball application.
I looked at the PG website, the 1st 200 class of 2016's for 60. I only looked at 6'3" or above and around 200lbs. I also tried to focus on RHP,CIF, C, even 3B. Either there was no time listed(which helped nada) or times were 7.0-8.2 range. There were 1 or 2 below 7.0, but barely. I recall one at 6.99.
I also looked at some of the taller/bigger MIF kids.
That puts 2016 in the middle and it drives him to work on speed, in the free time he does not have.

I understand the coveted # is 7.0, but what is the age that number is applicable? By the end of Sr. Season? I understand the implication if he were already below 7.0.
Is speed a tool that coaches can project that will improve as the kid matures, gains strength, leans ojt and matures? My 2016 is still more Pillsbury Dough Boy than lean. He also won't be 17 for 6 months. I get the jest that is an asset with power and velocity for some baseball athletes.

Times do drop for runners and swimmers as they "come together" athletically, physically
and with training. That's why records get PR's, WR's are broken from the pool, weights, track, high jump, etc.

My general observations(I am not an expert) are that many of the kids that were speed demons before puberty are not blazinly faster after puberty(some have slowed down, in the case of my 2016 he has sped up and closed the gap (and his speed goes down as he matures) many of the speedsters, that is their best tool and most are not above 6'2"

2016: 6'4", +/- 205lbs best 60yd time 7.5 at a college prospect camp in Nov 2014. Never laser timed, just at a few dozen hand timed college camps and at HS.

Alot of this Q&A is b/c 2016 is now "on the market". I never really have been concerned with how fast, how far, how hard as it never seemed necessary before puberty, or even before varsity, Jr. Yr.

Thanks for your help!

A newbie

Hopefully PG will chime in again.  He is the person on this site that would have the best information on 60 times/size/powe/recruiting/playing/being projectable.

That would be excellent! Some of the parameters for assesing athletes is not too simple for a novice to process. I am not looking to get brilliant about scouting, just curious as to how it weighs since speed is emphasized to a degree, but not the same speed for all positions........how about all builds? I can see where a big guy who could fly would be an absolute asset, but I read somewhere.... MLB average was 7.0.....no idea if that is accurate. Even less accurate, what the average is for a big guy, or at least a more physically mature man vs a lesser mature manchild

Collegebaseballrecruitingguidelines will give you some interesting perimeters for each position.

Thanks Doctor. 

I did look at that guideline.  I may have under analyzed.....real possibility I could not extrapolate from that chart a good understanding @ the speed relationship/component. Is 7.0-7.8,(ex) for a manchild not as bad as it appears on paper, particularily for a CIF/P/C, of a certain stature? 

60 times seem to be expressed more as an absolute, for OF, MIF, at least to me. Velo, pop, 60 are measureably objective. Yet I often see pop and velo expressed in a range, with a goal being a lower # for pop, higher for velo. I suppose I could be asking is there a range, projection, for the 60 times given variable tangibles??

My take, speed is not necessarily the 1st or 2nd tool for CIF,P,C. Faster is likely better, but is 7.55 vs 6.99 a deal breaker? Now I am getting dangerously far away from my personal baseball comfort zone.....

2016 just d*r*e*a*ds the stopwatch!! Hates the label slow. He does work at decreasing his time. Try to tell him he will get faster, leaner, stronger, improve technique, etc. OMG, so impatient. I want to say, "you are really not that slow, for being 16, 6'4", 200+lbs" Uh, then I would have to back that statement up, yikes!

 

Thanks again folks!

 My daughter was always one of the slower kids on her team, but she was a smart base runner and was on base a lot. She always kept pressure on the defense, and would advance on any ball in the dirt. If the outfield didn't throw the ball on a line she would take the next base (we often giggled at her and her below speed aggressiveness) her job was to hit doubles and home runs, and now that is her job at a 4 year school. Every coach likes speed, but sometimes smart will do the job.

LOL, agreed!  I have seen some VERY slow kids have some of the best steal records on the team...it wasn't their speed it was their base running smarts and their amazingly large lead off!

It is true that good instincts and being a smart base runner can make up the difference against a faster runner with bad instincts who is a dumb base runner.

 

Problem is the next level!  Who would you favor when both the fast runner and the slow runner have good instincts and both are smart base runners?

 

Bottom line...If the pitcher is 1.3 seconds to the plate and the catcher is 1.9 to second base... You can't steal a base if it takes you 3.4 to steal.  It makes no difference how good your instincts are or how smart you are.  Besides, even the fast smart guys are looking for the right pitch and situation to run on.

 

For some reason it sometimes seems like people try to talk themselves into things.

 

Slower runner, but smart runner!

Shorter player, but knows how to play

Slower velocity, but throws strikes

No power, but makes contact

Lacks tools, but stands out in the games.

 

Are we to assume the following.

 

Fast runner is a dumb runner?

Tall player doesn't know how to play?

Higher velocity can't throw strikes?

Power hitter can't make contact?

Great tools but no good in the games?

 

If that were the case, who would want a tall, fast, high velocity guy with power and great tools? Seems like the short, slow, low velocity guy that makes contact but has no tools would be in demand.

 

Problem is players come in many different combinations of skills, size, and make up.  Very few are blessed with everything.  But slow is slow and fast is fast!  The other intangibles that help a base runner can belong to either the slow or the fast runner.

 

Great post.

  Growing up I had a kid on my team that was a solid player with amazing speed. But he was always in a run down, getting picked off, or making the 3rd out on something stupid. Sometimes I think his speed ending up costing us a few games. Perhaps we could have pinch run for him in critical situations with a slower runner that had a little sense.          By the way I have never seen a coach looking for a slow stupid runner!

"If your son son runs a 6.6 60yd which is pretty good (but not elite)"

 

Fenway, we seldom disagree, but in my experience the Bell curve is pretty steep on its sides -- meaning, a 6.6 runner is pretty darned elite.  Provided he really runs 6.6, consistently, as opposed to that being a helicopter parent's fictional account.

 

Let's put it this way.  We'd all like to run 7.0, and that seems to be the turning point in a lot of minds, but the reality is most of us can only dream of being that fast.  7.0 is a number you need to get serious consideration at many positions, but there are still plenty of slower guys getting recruited.  (Some, however, are taken on as projects, and show tremendous improvement once their college coaches introduce them to real speed coaches for the first times in their lives.)

 

I've seen 6.8-6.9 guys who read pitchers well and get great jumps, and they pretty much steal at will.  I've seen 6.7-6.8 guys who don't and they are safe most of the time but will get caught on their bad jumps.  A 6.6 guy, with a little instruction, should be safe every time the ump isn't blind. 

 

We do all we can to look to recruit speed on our team.  So far, as we start our 6th cycle, we've had one guy who peaked at 6.3 and consistently ran 6.4-6.5; he could not be thrown out stealing or bunting, and he's now playing in the ACC.  We had one guy who peaked at 6.6, more typically was 6.8, he's an outfielder in the Big South.  We had one guy who was 6.75, very aggressive but sometimes sloppy with technique.  He was unstoppable in HS, got caught occasionally in travel.  He was forced to improve in college, now runs 6.3 and is unstoppable (also Big South).  We've had only one other guy with 6.6 speed, everyone wanted him, and he's now at JuCo because of the need to get his academic numbers up.

 

I've seen only 1 other guy out of probably over 1,000 who've tried out with us over the years who was even in that range.  So to me, 6.6 is "elite."

 

Not trying to be picky, I just don't want someone who runs a 6.9 or something to feel discouraged. 

 

I would also add that sometimes these numbers are one indicator that a kid is indeed highly athletic.  Most of our super fast guys were guys with very little body fat and a lot of other athleticism evident.  If there's a moral to be found it is this:  Get yourself into top physical condition.  If you haven't done this, everyone who sees you knows you aren't working as hard as you could, and that is probably the negative that stands out more so than any stopwatch number.

 

 

Thank you for every reply.  According to the link 2016 projects as a D1, speed is not mentioned for 3B/P/C.
I can't imagine speed is not some part of the equation for the corner positions.
I am trying to understand more the development of speed as a boy matures, or time going down as they grow. Maybe this is more of a track, sprinting, development question??? If a "baseball man" can project power from the bat as a 16,17,18 y/o gets bigger/stronger, or velo (for example, I often see reached 91 "with more to come" (......can getting faster also be projected....whether the kid is at 7.8, or 6.8?
If a kid is at 6.99 is that the Holy Grail and it is not expected/projected/not important if time will go down? Would average speed for a 16 year old, etc get a future score that would improve too, but never to speedster perhaps?. Surely fast is fast is even better if he is even faster by 2/10 or projected to get faster. However, fast is fast is already fast.
Is slow is slow also projected? I saw many in the top 200 with times above 7.0 yet they are top 200. Obviously, the 60 did not get them into the 200, and all sub 7.0 kids were not in the top 200 by virtue of sub 7.0.
I know my kid will eventually break thru the 7.0 barrier, but I know what he is doing, working, training, etc to get there and I have seen his time steadily decline.
However, what does a "baseball man" do to assess where a ballplayer is now to where that will player will be regarding the stop watch?
I know speed is one tool only. I know other tangibles and intangibles factor in to analyzing an athlete.
Thanks again!!!!

Laststretch,

 

The answer is yes, there are indicators that allow for projection.  Even negative technique is an indicator.  It is very obvious that most young kids don't know how to run.  They have spent a lot of hard work and time polishing the other skills but don't work on their running ability.  Also there are young kids that naturally run well, but there body is not yet developed.  Those kids are almost certain to run faster as they get older.

Just to throw a number out there.  Righthook attended a rather large try out over the Holiday.  40+ kids in the 2017 class, almost 200 overall trying out.  I just took at look at the 60 times for the 2017 they averaged out at 7.5.  There were several sub 7's and a few 8's in the mix.  Not a ton of real burners, so hopefully the 2017 group projects for better speed in the future.

HS indoor track times in the 55m dash provide a reality check for baseball times in the 60yd dash.  The two distances are virtually the same (6 inch difference). 

Apologies in advance. I'm not looking to endorse any kind of product or organization, but I have found the info below to be very useful and thought I'd share for the benefit of all...

 

Just for comparison sake, here's a list of the top 2015 uncommitted prospects, according to PG, with 60 times (among other things) listed:

http://www.perfectgame.org/Ran...mittedProspects.aspx

 

...and here's a listing of the test results (including 60 times) from the Area Code Camp (Northeast and Houston), held earlier this fall:

http://www.studentsports.com/b...ass-testing-results/

http://www.studentsports.com/b...ton-testing-results/

 

I have zero affiliation with either organization, but they're pretty much considered the "gold standard" for evaluating elite HS players.  Pretty good data for measurables, if you're looking to see how your player might fit into these groups.

 

I'm also currently in the middle of reading "5 Plus Tools" by Dave Perkin (recently retired scout).  Excellent book!  In addition, I highly recommend the "Prospect" DVD to anybody who is interested in educating themselves on what folks look for when they're checking out baseball players.

FYI Perfect game has a new tool on their website.  Pull up anyone's profile and you can see how they rank against others in their class, as well as the average and best number tracked for that class with a blue bar under their scores.

 

For example, I pulled up a 2016 I know:

60 time = 7.2

Average 60 time of 2016 = 7.42

Best recorded 2016 time =6.33

 

It also reads that his 7.2 is in the 67th percentile of the class of 2016's that have PG scores in the 60.

 

This tool is also on every other number tracked for that player, like FB and poptime and it seems to be retro-active.  i.e I looked up a 2011 and saw their scores and how they compared as well to their class.

Thank you all so much for the replies and posts. This is all promising.