60 Yars Times

There used to be a section here at this site on the main page dedicated to scouting and if I recall correctly, even the category of running times and grade-scale as established by the Major League baseball Scouting Bureau.

The article by Frank Marcos is outstanding if it is still here too.

Good Luck,
Shep

Second section:

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/prospectwatch/index3.html

BBScout, what do you mean when you say it doesn't mean much?

Mr3000,

I have a son who is a middle-infielder and while 6.9 / 7.0 is an average 60 time for MLB, I always ask......

When was the last time you saw a SS or 2B run 180 feet (60 yards) to catch a ground ball and throw someone out. It is those first few quick-steps and footwork that gets them into position to field the baseball.

In CF it is nice if you have a guy that can fly but again; it is the initial reaction to the ball off of the bat, good jump, proper angle and positioning that will have a lot to do with the CF getting in the gap to the ball.

O42

What about running the bases?

Mr3000,

Speed is nice to have and speed never goes into a slump as they say; unless you have hamstring or quad problems. But, if you hit gap to gap that speed may or may not get you to 3rd. If you don't have speed you stop at second.

For me and me only it is not that important. There are 4 other tools to look at. Speed is great and will not be over-looked, but if speed is the only tool you have you are going to be in trouble if you want to play at higher levels.

O42

If you don't hit you can leave your speed and cleats in the locker room. There are plenty of good big league hitter that carry the piano on their backs, many speedsters who can't hit their weight. Players that have both are exceptional and many young ones seem to be coming along. I hope they hit at MLB level, because they sure can run.

Thanks Mr3000

I ran a 7.47 as a freshman (hs). Is it possible 2 cut .2 a second year? So by the time i graduate i will 6.7-6.8.

If it is what can I do to improve my time?

I don't know if it's feasible to cut that much time off a 60 yard dash. Keep working on speed drills, even a .1 a year will be a great improvement.

I think most of speed is God given, but that's only my opinion.

Kellerdad

I agree with you

Speed is a God Given gift-- you can trim .1 or .2 with work but going from 7.5 to 6.7 can be tough

My son went to college as a 6.6/6.7 runner and got to 6.4 with excellent college coaching and training as he matured physically

My kid is 16, a middle infielder, and runs a 7.09. That's not too bad a time in high school. I can tell you one of my proudest moments was when he was a freshman and hit his first HS dinger. When the ball went over the 350 sign he was one step from second base, and after seeing the ball leave the field he continued to hustle (although not full speed) all the way home. I asked him why he went so fast around the bases. He said he never thought he about hitting a homer, but knew he popped it good and was thinking triple out of the box. As a showcase coach the "thinking triple out of the box" mentality really impressed me. He's a good kid that's made me proud many times on and off the field, but like I said, this was one of my proudest moments.

I have seen a high school freshman run over 8.00 and as a senior run 6.9.

Many players with the right technique and hard work can get to MLB average. I said many... not all!

We have seen many runners improve a lot. However, once a runner gets down to 6.8, 6.9 it gets harder and harder to cut time. Most all of those who run 6.5 or less were pretty much born with it.

Biggest secrets are running technique and the start + first 20 feet. The next thing is a player has to practise running rather than just run.

All players run, very few actually practise running. They practise hitting, pitching, fielding, etc, but they run without practising running!

How do you become a better hitter? A better fielder? A better piano player? A better video game player? A better anything? Most would agree, learn proper technique and repetition or practise. So how do you become a better runner?

Yeah I actually would go out practicing running if there wasn't rain or snow on the ground-too dangerous. But I'd like to know if anyone knows of any good sites that teach proper running form-not just in basic terms like "swing arms back and forth", but a site that gets specific-if possible. BTW I went to a showcase just before I turned 15 and ran around 8.4 and about 2 or 3 years ago I ran a 7.4, following year I ran a 7.2 . I have no idea what I can run right at the present moment.

thx i will post my next 60 time when ever i run with a clock agian

Mr3000

you dont need a website---get with the guys and gals on your school track team---you will find that they can help you tremendously and it costs you nothing

AAH!! - Speed, my favorite subject! Here we go again with the "get's a good jump on the ball in centerfield" and "those quick feet in the infield" and "speed won't do you any good if you can't hit a lick." Now, why is it that if you can run a 6.5, then people imply, as orioles42 does, that you can't hit or get a good jump on the ball??

When that burner tracks down a fly ball over his head is when you can see the clear difference between a mediocre runner and a real playa.

When that burner gets on the base paths and distracts the pitcher, causing him to throw a FAT pitch to that hitter behind him, then we get to see how speed changes a game.

So you can get all of the great jumps in the world, but I'M BACK, and I've got my jump on you guys...

P.S. Happy New Year, TR, my favorite foil!

quote:

Mr3000

you dont need a website---get with the guys and gals on your school track team---you will find that they can help you tremendously and it costs you nothing


TRhit

Yeah, I gotta check and make sure my college has a track team.

Does anyone know what would be a good time for a freshman in HS, on a 60 yard dash, and from home to first?

Limom84, I and Oriole42 made comments about speed, but I don't think we said, and I'm sure you can go back and check, that because you run a 6.5, you can't ht. Nonsense. Many more guys today run and hit than in past generations. (Don't bring up Mays guys, I'm talkng quantity) It can be an overrated subject in baseball. The problem is that hitting and fielding in general do not require speed, but its nice to have. No doubt an outfielder with speed is going to be much more valuable than a slower player. But it usually happens that speed does die off as big leaguers get older with a few exceptions, so if the player can hit, he will be around longer. There's nothing like a basestealing threat at our level, but exceptional speed isn't all you need to steal a base. Good baserunning skils can be taught to average runners, but speed is God-given and be a great advantage for both player and team. t is one of the 5 tools of baseball, but many of baseballs greats had hall of fame careers with only and average amount.

quote:

Originally posted by rhbaseball:
Does anyone know what would be a good time for a freshman in HS, on a 60 yard dash, and from home to first?

a 7.0 second 60 would be pretty good for a freshman in high school.

I think 7.0 for a freshman that isn't fully matured would be an excellent time, too.

I would say 4.7-5.0, home to first...until they get stronger and learn how to run.

Not to boast about myself, but I have always been the fastest or at least one of the fastest on all the teams I played on. I'll record my times tonight and post them here.

What is a good time for a 14 year old in the 40 yard?

Walawala, a 7.0 60 time is something that about 90% of high school seniors can't run, so yes, it would be a good time for a freshman. If you do some checking on Perfect Game's website and read the player profiles, and then look at some other sites like Diamond Kings and a few others that list 60 times, you'll find how a 7.0 compares to most high school players. It compares very, very well. Remember too, these are generally the better high school players that we're talking about, not the "average" high school player. When you stop and think about that, it should put things in perspective.

How good/bad is a 7.4-7.5 for a freshman

Its a good time. The fact is most freshman are in the mid to upper 7's. With some hard work and proper instruction he will more than likely be in the 7.0 range which is excellent. Dont get fooled by those that are constantly saying this freshman runs a 7.0 or this freshman throws 85. The fact is most do not the vast majority do not. We have had teams where no one ran a 7.0 period. We had a few 7.2 and a few 7.3 and alot of 7.4 to 7.7. These were good teams and several went on to play college baseball. You know it when you see it , it stands out because very few can do it.

Here's a thread that includes the same subject. Click on the PDF link to see nearly 200 60-times:

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6616002781/m/4521093941

quote:

How fast must I throw? How fast should I run? This will give the average kid a pretty good idea:

http://www.mhsbca.net/05showcaseevalsweb_complete.pdf

limom84,

It is unfortunate that you read what you want to read and only understand what you want to understand.

I never implied that if you run a 6.5 60 that you can not hit. I have no axe to grind with you and you are entitled to your opinion but please take better care in reading what folks post.

O42

Allow me to give you an example as to how speed or supposed lack thereof can be misdconstrued

We had a young man with us this year who ran a 7.4/7.6 consistently but was a whirling dervish on the bases. We even converted him from an ind fielder to an outfielder because of his instincts---the young man has instincts like few I have seen and was always making something happen when he was on the basepaths.

Ont he other hand we had a young mkan who ran a 6.7 but was lost on the bases--no instincts


Folks do not forget that instincts in the game of baseball mean a heck of a lot more than some want to acknowledge--the player with average footspeed 7.0 to 7.5 can be a weapon if he has instincts and instincts cannot be taught

TR, Someone will read that and say you are telling them that fast runners can't run the bases. Hopefully, most will see what you mean.

BlueDevilDad

Many cannot-- take Bernie Williams on the Yanks for example--one of the worst baserunners you can find

To be a good baserunner is not necesasarily to have blazing speed-- do I hear echoes of Herb Washington who was a designated runner for the A's more than a few years back

Good point TR. Having footspeed is important in just about all sports but I'll take
a player with avg. speed and good instincts over the reverse. However, some of those speedy players CAN improve their lack of instincts somewhat.

Quick ex.: Played with Mickey Rivers years back before he played with the Yankees and he was without question the fastest player in the Angels' organization. Terrible
baserunner-always getting picked off base and thrown out stealing. Poor jumps in CF
on fly balls. Because of his raw speed he received countless extra hours of private
work before and after games and did improve his skills. He still did not reach the
projected potential but had a good career in the Majors.

I've seen numerous players in showcases "wow" the scouts with their 60yd speed, their 90mph arms from the outfield and their towering HR's in BP and be "picked"
a top prospect for 3 straight years and yet not have baseball instinct. Raw skills are important but need to be evaluated under game conditions. IMHO

Moc1 has hit it on the head.

As an example, my son attended a PG showcase last year (between summer of frosh and soph year).

Ran a 7.39.
Certainly nothing that "stands out". However, it was specifically noted in his PG report that he showed "game quickness". Ran the bases very well (Stolen base, and scored from first easily on a double to the gap). He is a MIF.

I imagine some recruting coaches, in today's IT/database world, MAY take a list of 60 times and sort. And MAYBE they'll strike guys with let's say a 7.5+ time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the above avg 60 time will get you "on the radar", but I think a lot of scouts are in fact looking at/for game quickness, baseball instincts. In my mind, "GAME SPEED" is VERY important.

jb

In your mind does game speed translate into instincts?

Don’t care to argue, but also feel it is important to understand the importance of speed and the other tools.

Instincts come into play in many different areas (fielding, hitting, running, etc.) Good instincts are vitally important, scouts and coaches notice good instincts. However, good instincts by itself is rarely enough to make someone a top class baseball player. Instincts without any tools would sadly come in second to tools period.

It is true that a slow runner can have outstanding instincts, but the faster runner will get to 1B quicker and with just a little training will go 2B to Home or 1B to 3B quicker. Great instincts without speed will not allow a player to succeed at certain positions at the higher levels.

2 tenths of a second is approximately one full stride. Don’t know if the greatest instincts in a slow runner vs the worst instincts in a speedster can equal a full stride in 90 feet or more!

One only needs to watch the start of any 60 yard sprint to realize… Hardly ever will you see someone get a full stride jump over another runner. The difference between 6.7 and 7.5 in the 60 is 4 full strides or approximately 25 feet. The 6.7 runner with equal instincts to the 7.5 runner will finish approximately 25 feet ahead of the slower runner. The 6.7 runner who starts one full stride behind the 7.5 runner, still finishes 3 full strides ahead. Instincts come into play much more in very short distances ie. 10 feet. Yes, this is very important in many cases, but the bases are 90 feet apart.

Knowledge, decision making, feel for the game, and instincts help tremendously, but they can not replace speed! Yes, fast runners can be, and sometimes are, bad baserunners. Yes, slow runners can be smart baserunners. Now, you need to figure out the overall package. As some examples in above posts… there have been very fast, yet poor baserunners, at the highest levels. The slow guys who play at the highest level are there because they can hit and do the other things… they are not there because of their base stealing threat or to cause havoc on the bases.

In addition to Mickey Rivers being less than a great baserunner, he had one of the worst arms in MLB history. He was a below average fielder and so-so hitter. Yet he played a long time at the highest level possible because of his speed.

Herb Washington is a bad example because he wasn’t even a baseball player. To be a world class sprinter you need to have good instincts or be left in the starting blocks. He just didn’t have baseball instincts and more importantly experience. However, I would bet Herb Washington on 1B trying to score on a double would beat any slow guy with great instincts to the plate and by a long ways! It’s not that hard to teach someone how to round the bases.

There is way too much involved to say anything stands alone and can be mastered without experience, training, instruction, etc. However, pure speed is one of 5 major tools and to discount it as unimportant could cause young players to feel it is not important to work on and improve.

If all a player can do is run a 6.3 60 yards, but absolutely nothing else, he will not reach the highest levels. (Exception – The Herb Washington experiment) If he can do the things “Moc1” mentions (Wow the scouts with 60 yd speed, 90 mph arm, towering BP HRs) He WILL be evaluated in game conditions, it’s a guarantee! He could also project nicely despite being RAW at the time. His present playability might cause him to drop in draft position, but he will still be considered a prospect because of his 3 plus tools! ( taking for granted they really are 3 plus tools) ie. 90 mph arm doesn’t always mean it’s a plus tool!

I think it’s fine and even accurate to talk about the importance of instincts, feel for the game, decision making ability, toughness, work ethic, and everything that is part of the total package. One just needs to understand the importance of the tools and yes RAW ability.

Only reason I posted this is because way too often on this site, I read how velocity, speed, power and other very important things are really not that important. Yes, the other stuff is also very important, but young players should understand the importance of the basic “tools” and do everything possible to improve those tools! That’s only if they really want to advance as far as possible!

I now expect, those who disagree to post a few exceptions to what has been mentioned above. The great thing about baseball is there will always be exceptions to just about everything.

PG

Not arguing what attracts attention

What I am saying is that the "Attractors" , speed, velocity,etc are not the be all --end all for a player--especially for one looking to play college ball at one level or another

I sometime think that we turn players off when talk about the optimum so much and not deal with the kid with good baseball skills and inate talent who just loves the game and wants to play college baseball as his end goal-if it goes further it is a bonus

And I think you will agree with me the kids I am talking about are in the majority--

One thing especially for the players to remember is how hard it is to time someone.

I saw a hs coach time some kids last year, he threw a glove down for the starting point and proceeded to pace off 60 yards.

I apologize if this was addressed earlier in the thread.

Tr-
Yes, I think game speed/quickness relates to and/or is the equivalent to instincts.

PG-
I always value your comments and certainly agree with them. On many posts here, you have mentioned the importance of the 5 tools. And as many people have stated numerous times, speed doesn't slump.

I probably didn't summarize my points properly in my original post:
1) Speed gets you "noticed" by coaches or recruiters. It puts you on their radar. If you have great instincts, but a sub-par 60 time, you will probably have a difficult time getting noticed (unless of course, you have OTHER tools!) After that, one needs to look at all of the items mentioned in PG's post.

2) At least at PG events (and I imagine the better showcases), evaluators do notice that some players may NOT be speedburners, yet have good running instincts. All I was trying to say is that good scouts/evaluators do in fact look at more than just raw speed, which IMHO is a good thing.

Stat (for what it's worth):
At the recently completed PG National Underclass Showcase, there were over 500 players attending. 478 players were timed in the 60. 33 (6.9%) of the players had a time under 7 seconds. As a point of reference,the huge majority of these players were 07s or 08s.


PS. I wish my son would do more of what PG stated in an earlier post, practice RUNNING!!!!!

TR,

If a player doesn’t run or throw well, then he needs to excel in other areas.

I'm not talking about what's the majority or minority. If the minority is the top then players should do whatever is possible to improve their skills… at any level… if they want to play at a higher level. There is always room, somewhere, for those with good baseball skills. My point is, a player can and should strive to improve those tools rather than accept them as good enough. (at any level)

I believe players should know what the optimums and the standards are. They should try to reach them. If that turns out impossible for them… so be it! Is it better to hide the facts or to know that every coach at every level would like the best, fastest, strongest arm, etc. player possible.

I believe every 7.5 runner out there has the potential to run at least 7.2 or 7.3, but it won’t happen accidently. I believe there are thousands of players who have the potential to run 7 flat or better who never will. The bottom line is… those 7.5 runners who improve to 7.2 or 7.3 have become better, more valuable all around baseball players. After all, they won’t lose any of their baseball skills because they got faster.

The biggest problem that I see, is players who simply accept the fact they are slow or have a weak arm. They do nothing to improve that weakness and spend their time thinking it is not that important. It is important to improve weaknesses rather than blowing them off by saying other things are more important. Sure coaches admire true baseball players who love the game, work hard, with a good feel for the game. They would still prefer the same player if he ran faster and threw better.

My point is… Too often I feel there is this misconception of it’s OK (at times, even sounds like it might be an advantage) if you run slow and have a weak arm. The truth is… It’s only OK if you have done everything possible to improve in those areas and it’s never an advantage. It’s not about what level you can play at… It’s about playing at the level you’re truly capable of. Some kids never give themselves the chance to find out.

That said… The most important thing is to strive to reach your potential. (no one ever reaches their true potential - it's always an unknown) If a player can play, there’s always a place. After all, there are MANY more DIII baseball programs than all the others combined.

PG: Great post. Speed changes the game. IMO speed kills: defeats a catcher's great pop-time; a pitcher's concentration on the batter; a line drive in the gap that an extra 25 feet of speed defeats; and so on. Speed can be improved with work and encouraging words from folks like you. Hope all is well with your family. Great Bridge.