60 Yars Times

quote:

One thing especially for the players to remember is how hard it is to time someone.

I saw a hs coach time some kids last year, he threw a glove down for the starting point and proceeded to pace off 60 yards.

Yikes! I'm surprised too that no one brings this up. I've seen a lot of 60s run but I've never seen a quality 100' tape measure at one.

Other factors:
1) Wind-- head/tail/cross
2) Slight up hill/down hill
3) Run singly or in pairs
4) Quality of the surface. Varies immensely.
5) Timing method
6) How well the finish is marked (usually poorly)
7) Starting method
8) How are false starts/slips/falls handled
9) How many times the 60 is run
10) How many stopwatches
11) Warmup allowed
12) Air temp

----
I stood among a group of bystanders who were attempting to unofficially time 60s. We were all using wrist timers, admittedly not the best way to do it. High and low readings always varied by about 3 tenth-seconds.


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As "PG" states I agree that speed and velocity are downplayed way too much. Always hear that pitchers with good velocity probably don't have good control and pitchers with below avg velocity can hit their spots and change speeds really well.

Question: Pitcher A tops at 92, Pitcher B tops at 85, both have great control, ball movement, change speeds well, and have good curves/sliders.
Knowing nothing else which one do you choose for your team?

Same with foot speed-Player A runs 6.7, Player B runs 7.1, other tools being equal which one do you choose.

Is there any question? Now start adding and detracting skills and variables and
the choices could change.

Also, a pro scout will take the raw tools where a college scout may not. Naturally the colleges don't have a whole lot of time to develop the skills so
they'll probably opt for the more "honed" player because they need production NOW when a ML team is looking 3-4 years down the road.

However, not to be argumentative, but if I have to put a team on the field RIGHT
NOW, I'll take the average runner 7.0/7.1 with good instincts over the faster runner 6.7 with poor instincts.

BTW, Mickey Rivers arm WAS probably the worst I've ever seen in professional
baseball. If the wind was blowing towards center he could barely get it to second base on a roll.

Two good posts by PG and Moc1

A little to add to what PGStaff TR and MOC hit on earlier.

Speed is great. I'll take a 6.8 over a 7.2 any day. It's a good indicator of 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. ability. But...it does not determine success in going 1st to 2nd (as long as a player has average speed). Even with a good catcher and great POP time the two most important factors in stealing second are the jump and the accuracy of the throw to second.

I'll take good speed and great quickness over great speed and slower reactions. Since you can't teach speed, work on quickness and picking up pitchers tendencies to get a better jump.

Nevertheless, scouts look at 60s so the faster the better. You can teach reading pitchers tendencies and getting good jumps.

Missouri Dad,

I know it is generally accepted that speed is natural ability. For many this is very true, but speed (or running) can in fact be taught. Once it is taught it must be practiced. There would be no need for sprinting coaches if there was nothing to coach. Good sprint coaches study technique and training just like good pitching coaches study pitching.

You can’t teach someone to be a world class sprinter, but nearly every runner can learn and improve technique and cut time off any distance. No matter how fast a player is, if he improves his running ability he becomes a better, more valuable player both on defense and offense.

Running isn’t much different than some other skills. It is simply impossible for most pitchers to ever throw 95 mph, but most pitchers with better technique (mechanics) and training can throw harder than they do now.

Maybe the biggest problem is that the 7.8 runner is convinced he is slow and it’s not realistic for him to ever become a plus runner. So he doesn’t work at it and stays a 7.8 runner. If he were a 7.4 or 7.5 runner he would be a better more valuable player.

There are many things I’m not sure of. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that most every, if not every, player can improve his or her running ability.

PG

I agree with everything you said. The only point I was trying to make was that speed isn't as big a factor (as long as you have average speed or better) in being successful going from 1st to 2nd as the other things I mentioned.

I do hope you're right. My son is at 7.15 now. I'm hoping his trainer can get him to 7.0- by March. May be wishful thinking.

Missouri Dad,

Not wishful thinking at all. Is the trainer an expert at sprinting and baserunning?

The secret to cutting time in the 60 in a hurry is to master the start! Most kids can cut up to 2 tenths off their 60 time by using the most efficient start. Unfortunately the most efficient start is not exactly general knowledge.

No. His trainer is focusing on conditioning, some upper body weight training, a lot of lower body work and agility drills.

Maybe we should invest in a running "expert" as you say. It's only money right? I'd like to hear more about the "efficient start" you mentioned. I assume it has a lot to do with upperbody movement at takeoff.

It won't cost you a dime. email pgjerry@qwest.net

PG is it ok if i send a email about the start?

of course, but I won't be able to reply until Monday at the earliest.

Ok, thanks! I will send a email sometime tomorrow.

Over a year ago, we incorporated a high school track coach into our off-season workout opportunities. Not everyone took advantage of it, but some did and each of them runs a better 60 now than before. The 60 time isn't everything, and those who've talked about instincts and other things that contribute to the ability to run intelligently on the baseball field are correct, BUT...You have to acknowledge that the 60 time is the standard by which everyone measures speed, regardless of wheter it is right or wrong. If you want to present yourself in the best possible manner, learn to improve your 60 time. At our workout today, there will be a track coach working with some of the baseball players on the track, while others are taking BP on the field.

On top of raw speed and instincts, a player also has to have enough smarts to know how to use it. We had a player last year who was incredibly fast, he stold over 30 bases in high school last year without being caught a single time. What we found when summer rolled around was that he was also unquestionably the worst baserunner we'd ever had. Because he was fast, he thought he could always do more than he could, and he ran himself into too many outs to tolerate. Dropped pop-up to the 2nd baseman, he gets thrown out at 2nd, when he should have stayed at first. Wild pitch, he tries to score from 2nd and nearly makes it but ends up being the last out in the inning, at home plate. Those both happened and there were even more bad judgement mistakes, as incredible as it might sound. We dropped him from our team by mutual agreement. This school year, he's been cut from one juco and is trying to make it at another, and while time will tell I have my doubts.

Being ultra fast isn't enough. You have to have the intelligence to know how to use your speed.

Amen Catcherdad. How did this speed demon do in the field?

Coachric,

quote:

Being ultra fast isn't enough. You have to have the intelligence to know how to use your speed.

Catcher Dad,

I agree with that... Both are extremely important and need to work together. Ultra intelligent won't steal bases either if the runner is real slow.

I have seen some real fast guys who lack decision making skills. The combination of great speed - great instincts - great intelligence, gives you the GREAT baserunner.

One should remember, though... The slower a runner is... the more time he has available to make smart decisions! (hope that makes sense)

I have an interesting 60-yard story. My son played his junior year in HS at 215-220 pounds. Was being timed at workouts at 7.8 or 7.9 usually. So in the fall he decided to whip himself into great shape. Changes his eating habits dramatically, lifts weights relentlessly, runs 4 to 6 miles a day every day. Finally gets down to 190 pounds and really now looks like he can fly.

He goes to the World Showcase and guess what? He runs another 7.9.

I recognize that something must be wrong with how he runs. The law of gravity were my first clue. He was lighter, in great shape and absolutely no faster. So I took him to Parisi speed school and discover there that long distance running develops muscles condusive to distance and actually works against the explosive sprint type of running. Now he is in the process of retraining his muscles for the bursts of speed necessary in baseball.

The trainer is confident (or at least he said he was) that he will get to his goal of 7.4 or 7.5 in the coming months. He's never going to be a burner, but at 7.4 and with the good habits on the bases that being slow forced him to acquire, he will not be a clog every time he reaches base.

I'll let you know if it works.

In the most recent CA underclass showcase, I did not see any times below 7 sec.

There were something like 120 kids there. I'm sure that they did not all run.

Was this a slow group of kids or a slow venue?

quote:

Originally posted by Dooer:
In the most recent CA underclass showcase, I did not see any times below 7 sec.

Was this a slow group of kids or a slow venue?

You should see about 5%-8% of the kids under 7 secs. Almost definitely the event wasn't conducted properly. (see my earlier post on things that can go wrong)

Speed is basically a God Given gift--you got it or you don't--you can improve it but a 8.0 runner will never be a 7.0 runner--- just take what you got and use it to the best of your ability

Not all horses can run in the Kentucky Derby if you get my point

Dooer

Did they post the times? I timed them from the bleachers with a good stopwatch (I know it was not the most accurate place) but every runner I timed was way above 7 seconds. they were all from 7.6 - 8.5 I knew I would be a little off because of my bad view/angle of the finish.

My son ran a 7.2 (measured with a 200' tape) and 7.3 two days before the showcase. That was in a 15 mph crosswind and high grass. I figured in the conditions at 66ers park he would be around 7.0 When I timed him, I got a 7.6 He was the 3rd fastest runner by my time in the first 2 groups. I quit after that because I couldn't believe they were all that slow.

wvmtner,

The times were posted at the equipment concession stand.

I think that the fastest time was 7.02. There were a lot of times in the 8+ range. My son was @ 7.5.

Did they measure the 60 with a good tape? I would think people would demand a re-measurement if everyone were timed slow.

What kind of times were the judges coming up with?

This was a Perfect Game event. I assume they know what they are doing. The times were not posted until the following day.

I guess that another question I would have is if these things are imputed into a database, how do you account for the different conditions.

A event like this, where the times seem to be slower then average, could hurt a kid that only goes to one showcase.

I notice that one kid was .2 slower then his listed time at another PG event.

I'd demand some explanation from PG. Could be the course was slightly uphill and into a headwind. Normally you'd expect the fastest time to be about 6.5 to 6.7 at varsity level. Those times may be about .4 slow. Maybe PG should add an asterisk to times in that event.

I will try to answer a few of the questions being this was one of our events. First of all, let me assure everyone that there was a lot of talent at this event including a few of the very best 07s in the country.

1. We do use a tape measure, though it is longer than 100'. In fact, we normally leave it spread out on the field to show the 180' until the 60 is completed.

2. The conditions as reported to me were less than ideal for maximum times. (Soft and thick grass)

3. We time everything by both laser and stopwatch. Laser usually being the faster time.

4. When conditions are less than ideal, we make adjustments to listed times before posting for public viewing. The times posted at the playing field do not include adjustments. These adjustments are made by using previous running times under normal conditions vs the times we get under poor conditions. However, we do not necessarily use a players very fastest previous time. For example; If a players fastest previous time was run on artificial turf and present time was on thick grass, we wouldn't assume the artificial turf time as an accurate adjustment between the two.

5. Lucky for us, we have a large database, chuck full of past information. So we can almost always come up with several comparisons in order to make appropriate time adhustments. In the case of the California Underclassmen event that adjustment will be .2 tenths of a second.

6. We feel we have some expertise in this area simply because we have timed more runners than anyone in the history of baseball.

7. In the end, this will show 10 or 11 runners under 7 flat and several others fairly close. This is out of approximately 115-120 runners.

quote:

I'd demand some explanation from PG.

This is poor advice!

Much better to call with concerns and people will be very happy to address those concerns.

I'd think PGs adjusted times need an asterisk too. ****ed if you do; ****ed if you don't, I guess.

I'm starting to see that all those pitchers with 90s are really 82s throwing over tall damp grass

Micdsguy,

What's to explain? Perfect Game is a scouting service. It is relied on to give accurate information on players and prospects. Adjusting to conditions is an accepted practice in all of sports. Do a little research and see how often this is done in track & field.

I saw Derrick Robinson run a 6.4 at the PG World. He was flying across that outfield. He's the same kid that ran a 6.1 at the PG national. The same kid, only the conditions were different - grass vs. turf. The grass and terrain slowed him down. Had their been more moisture, he would have been slower. In mud, he might have been a 7.3 or a 7.4. But he's still the kid who can run a 6.1, isn't he? It's important to give an accurate reflection of the player, so adjusting for conditions is not only acceptable, but necessary.

I'm waiting for PG to adjust my son's time! He was the only one who ran in the only gale force wind that blew at Terry Park that day!

PGstaff

The conditions were a lot better there than they were in my area. I'm not questioning the event at all. I just stopped timing from the stands cause all the times seemed too slow and I figured I couldn't be close.

I didn't get to come back on Sunday so I don't know what Jeff ran. I guess I'll wait till they are posted on the website to see how far off I was.