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A lengthy note on "Hitting your spot" and "Location"

FC Fred Corral10+ posts
The key to hitting your target is and always will be practice and repetition. You must develop experience and feel for what you are trying to hit. Back in the day when we didn’t have pitching or throwing coaches, we were more in tune with the task at hand. See the rabbit, throw object at rabbit, bring home dead rabbit, eat and procreate. Repeat the cycle when hungry again. We do have an innate ability to hit our target. It was engrained in our being way back when. The things that have gotten in the way of this is the “how to”. Not that working on how we should throw (mechanics) is a bad thing. It’s more important to know when you should and should not focus on the “how to”. Whenever you are on the game mound, it should be about hitting your target. Whenever you are on the bullpen mound, it should be about hitting your target. Designate areas in which you can work on your delivery like the visitor’s bullpen mound or a portable mound, or in the outfield. When on the mound it is business, the game mound is about competing and winning the battle between you and the hitter. The only thought has to be about “making this pitch”. Say it truly was a battle…. if swords were the weapon of choice, what warrior is going to go out there and think “if I fake to his head with this sword and he attempts to block it, I’ll stick him with this dagger in my other hand.”??? All the while, wearing something sharp in his own neck, only to lie in the battle field breathing his last breath, thinking I should have just trusted my approach and gotten after it!!

Mechanics is not the answer. If mechanics were really important for making it to the big leagues…. I would like for everyone to follow this pyramid to the top with me…..I have been told that there are 5,000,000 little league baseball players, 500,000, high school players, 50,000 college players, 5,000 minor league players and 750 big league players. Of all the pitchers that make it to the big leagues, (300+) I would ask you, if they are our elite, why isn’t there a stapled approach in everyone of them or in the majority of them? The reason, it is about who can get out of their own way and hit their target more frequently. The difference in the well known grocery clerk Mr. Eyblueninty –Five and someone like John Smoltz is that Smoltz, is a Professional target hitter.

One way you can work on improving your ability to make a pitch is to increase focus and be aware of your weaknesses. This can be done by charting each and every pitch thrown.
Script 40 pitches. Make a chart with 40 separate squares representing the strike zone for each pitch. Title each individual pitch. Work through the script. Place a plus or minus for quality of pitch. (ie…Fastball down and away to a RHH if quality located give a plus where pitch was thrown, if thrown middle in to the hitter give it a minus.) After all the pitches have been thrown, summarize locations. You might find that on that particular day you had a tough time with glove side fastball down and or something else. This is how you get better at locating and understanding your strengths and weaknesses. All quality located pitches may make the glove move but still be a quality pitch. (ie…attempting a fastball down and away but missing middle and down. The quality pitch is that both pitches where down.) Rules that I like to share with my guys are that when going away, miss down and when going in, miss in. Both misses still bring about a quality pitch.
https://picasaweb.google.com/l...1rdA?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/l...Hsbw?feat=directlink

Another way to improve your ability to “make a pitch’ is to understand the simplicity of just throwing the ball to the catcher. If you know how to throw to your catcher right down the middle, then through the process of direction, every pitch is a “boxed” pitch. (right down the middle to your catcher.) Learn that one skill, hit your target through the center of the catcher. After that, change your “self talk” when acquiring signals. Instead of “FB down and away” think more, “fastball, catcher is setting up away.” Then direct yourself and deliver a pitch through the center of you catcher. If the catcher is setting up in, and you hit him in the center where is the location of the pitch? In.

This youtube clip will hopefully show you how do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvMluzA5tnA

These are just a few examples that I hope can contribute to any of the previous. Hope it brings about good interaction.

Fear ceases all forward movement. 2+2=5 L.I.F.E !

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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM:
there are a few things that I do not agree with,


Please share.


I beleive that mechanics are of the upmost importance for a pitcher's success. Reinforcing muscle memory (repeating your mechanics, your specific delivery) will help the pitcher to replace thinking about what he has to do as to performing an unconscious activity. Unless I misunderstood, you are saying that this is not important?

I always thought that once the pitcher begins thinking too hard then he is in trouble. He has his catcher to do that for him. Smile

I also do not necessarily agree with your statement of throwing to your catcher right down the middle, but then again I maybe misunderanding the point you are trying to make, which to me appears complicated.
Last edited by TPM
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Great post Fred. I really enjoyed it. Your comments about mechanics are spot on imo. If there was one way to do it then everyone would just master that one way to do it and everyone would be a ML pitcher. What makes you successful? What are YOUR mechanics that allow YOU to be successful? Some kids are born with the natural ability that others are not born with. Some can make immediate adjustments or have a FEEL for the game. The ability to focus can be learned. It also can be trained. Some are born with the ability to focus in the heat of battle. Lose themselves in the game so to speak. Others have to train very hard to reach a point where they can. We have all seen the talented pitcher who can throw a beautiful pen. Then once on the game mound in a game they are all over the place. Or the pitcher who can spot it up with the best of them in certain counts but is all over the place when he has to get it done.

Hitting your target, changing speeds hitting your target, throwing all your pitches in your arsenal hitting your target, thats pitching. A hitters worst nightmare indeed.

Over coached players? Focusing on what your being coached to do so much that your natural ability to do what YOU can do and YOU need to do is lost in the process? I often wonder who Babe Ruth's personal hitting instructor was? Or who Bob Gibson had as a pitching coach coming up in the game? Its it possibe that there are many we have never heard of and never will because they were coached right out of their greatness?

Thanks for the post. It made me think and I enjoy learning.
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:

I beleive that mechanics are of the upmost importance for a pitcher's success. Reinforcing muscle memory (repeating your mechanics, your specific delivery) will help the pitcher to replace thinking about what he has to do as to performing an unconscious activity. Unless I misunderstood, you are saying that this is not important?

I always thought that once the pitcher begins thinking too hard then he is in trouble. He has his catcher to do that for him. Smile

I also do not necessarily agree with your statement of throwing to your catcher right down the middle, but then again I maybe misunderanding the point you are trying to make, which to me appears complicated.

Thanks for your thoughts. I too, believe mechanics are very important, but in the aspect of hitting your target it definitely takes a back seat or in the "trunk", to the priority of focus and intent to "make this pitch". For me. This fact will eventually come about to those that look for a pitch or mechanical adjustment to get them through to the next start..it will be what brings about the inconsistencies of going from good to struggling and then repeating the cycle over and over. In "making a pitch" you are doing the only thing you can truly control. You can make a great pitch and get lit up and you can make a poor pitch and roll up a GB out. When you head to the mound to start a game, you can't say your going to win...there are too many variables. You can however say that you are going to "make every pitch you possibly can". This is no revelation, just extremely overlooked by the need to constantly fix and refix.

Mechanically it would be great to think that you truly can repeat your delivery in a game. There is again, way too many variables. They say that you might be able to duplicate the delivery twice in every 10,000 attempts. I don't know where that number comes from, but it is a somewhat true statement when you involve all the other things that can throw your delivery out of whack.(ie. Poor high school game mounds would be a factor)

When you can get an athlete to work within his subconscious mind, (I believe that is what you meant, though I do have pitcher's on my staff that i think are unconcious out there.Smile) please send me the secret. I don't mean that as a cut or negatively in any way. Sport Enlargers(Not Shrinks) are getting paid good money to try to help athletes attain this. That's why the above "make your pitch" segment was thrown out there. I believe it is the "path" because it is truly what we are capable of doing and it is where you make the most money.

If the catcher or coach is doing the thinking? One is truly cheating himself and taking the easy way out. It is impoortant for the pitcher to command his game. To have an idea of what he wants to throw and how he wants to attack. "The wrong pitch with confidence is better than the right pitch with doubt." Also knowing what your going to throw before you throw it gives the pitch it's greatest chance to hit the target. The pitcher's own commitment.

Throwing down the middle of the catcher is the target everyone gives for a strike. Where the catcher sets up to catch the ball in the center of his body, is what makes it in or out. Umpires will not call a strike that a catcher doesn't catch in the center of him.(most of the time Smile) Orel Hershiser once told me at Dodgertown in 2000, that when he was throwing strikes during that streak of scoreless innings, that he saw dots and arrows. Dots and arrows like in bowling lanes. This also helped in him throwing a tailing FB into LHH's that would get them to gap their hips and give up on the pitch. (Maddux as well) By picking a lane to where the catcher was going to be, he was able to pick a dot and arrow and direct his armside tailing FB to the other side of the plate. Hopefully with the previous post and this it will be less complicated.

Pitcher's do throw pitches right down the middle as well. Not everybody is Albert Pujols. (Thankfully)
Last edited by Fred Corral
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
(ie. Poor high school game mounds would be a factor)



It is interesting you mentioned this. My two cents-

Never thought really that much about mounds until son was in his last year of little league and they had these cheesy portable mounds that were only about 4 feet long and then your foot landed in really soft diamond dust. We were playing in the semi-final championship game. Our foe was a crosstown rival who we did not get along with at all- always complaining and trying to cheat. So, addreniline was a pumping. My son was on the mound and throwing a shut-out. Last inning, two outs, their best hitter up to bat with tying runs on base. Son rears back, throws and when he lands his foot slips in the soft dirt and immediately he is grimacing in pain. He threw a strike and we won the game but his back was screwed up. That, to this day has been his worst baseball injury. We went to the doctor and found out he had a tilted pelvis and that his lower lumbar #5 was out of place and the muscles surrounding the area were strained. That was pretty much the tale of the tape the rest of the summer and fall for him. He was ok'd to play 3 weeks later but he fought that injury all year long. From then on I started really taking note of mound height, the landing area, slope degree, hardness/softeness, etc. I really started noticing that most HS mounds were too high, had too much slope, and almost all had too much loose clay/dirt for the landing area.

We made the adjustment of going with different cleats to help curb the problem of the landing foot slipping and sliding in the loose dirt and too much slopeness. I noticed that with the higher steeper mounds pitchers were losing their footing slightly and it was causing control problems for the pitchers. People do not realize the importance of having the correct slope to a mound and having a good hard surface to land on with the foot plant. Not only does it drastically effect the control of the pitcher, it also prevents injury, increases velocity and longevity of the pitcher. It's pretty hard to find a HS mound that loses only 5-6 inches at the point of foot plant. Most HS mounds around here have steep slopes and when the foot plants, he has dropped at least 8 inches and is lnading on a steep slope that can't possibly stop the momentum to transfer more kinetic energy up through into release. There is a lot of lost energy with the foot slipping that 1-2 inches trying to get traction on a steep mound and in loose dirt. I would have never noticed that if it wasn't for son injuring himself years ago. Now it's the first thing my son always checks when he gets on a field. He will pretty much know right off what kind of a day he is going to have just by observing the mound.

I wish HS's (keep a dreamin) could get togther and fix the mound issues. High steep mounds aren't better. Loose clay/dirt does nothing good for a pitcher.

Anyways, that's my two cents worth on that Smile

quote:
Pitcher's do throw pitches right down the middle as well. Not everybody is Albert Pujols. (Thankfully)


TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Pitcher's do throw pitches right down the middle as well. Not everybody is Albert Pujols. (Thankfully)


Throwing down the middle to the catcher (where ever he may be set up) is quite different than throwing down the middle of the plate. FWIW, if my pitcher is going to throw a FB down the middle of the plate, it's going to be low or hands high, this is completely different than throwing down what is considered the middle, would you agree? By the way, that is for FB, does not include FB which is usually thrown in practice (bullpen sessions). Agreed?

I do not disagree about focus and intent not being what is important. One doesn't need to be conscious about their mechanics in a game situation. That's what I meant about not thinking. Mechanics are what gets you to deliver the ball to it's location/target, correct? Focus is what you need to try to get as close as you possibly can. And no one said that they had to be the same to be successful.

One of the points you made here, that when a pitcher makes a pitch it most likley isn't going to land up where intended, most of the time. We have covered that. This even happens with those target throwers.

I respect your response, and you cleared up a bit about mechanics. Of course the pitcher has to have a game plan, and he usually knows that when he leaves his bullpen what's working that day and how he felt when the ball (for a particular pitch) leaves his hand and to where it lands. That's trusting in your stuff, which usually gets you ahead of the hitters. The mechanics should be on auto pilot, the pitcher shouldn't be on the mound thinking about how he is going to change his mechanics during his game, he has to learn quickly to make those external adjustments (weather, mound)to be able to stay in the game and let his catcher help him and just focus and throw, no argument there. That's what I meant about the catcher doing the work.

On the professional level pro teams have sports psychologists talk to their players. For pitchers, it's all about thinking too much and focusing and how you bring your mind and body into focus. So much more goes into it than throwing the ball over and over to the same spot in a bullpen to get your spot. I think that we would agree to that. The best pitchers that you see in the game all work with people to improve their mental game. John Smoltz was one of the first to admit it, and I am sure that had a lot to do with why he became a professional target thrower.

There are different approaches to pitching instruction. All with the same goal, to become a better pitcher. One of the things I talked to son about ( keep in mind he is beyond the HS and college level) is that what works for one doesn't always work for another. Obviously Orel used his own formula for success as I am sure that you are aware that others do as well (their own formula). While in college, he had specific goals he had to follow from his pitching coach whether he liked them or not. The fixing, the tweaking never ended, and he turned out ok from it, that is how it was for him. For pitchers on the big league level, it's the same, you don't think that Dave Duncan sits there with Chris Carpenter during his bullpen watching his mechanics?

As a pitching coach, when you see one of your pitchers begin to lose his mechanics in a game do you go over and tell him that? Or do you ask how he feels? I would assume that is the last thing you want him to think about in a game (fixing his mechanics). That's what I meant about "thinking".

Please don't take my post here as an argument against you. You make great points and perhaps the difference is that one sees the glass as half empty and the other as half full (you understand that great argument).
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Pitcher's do throw pitches right down the middle as well. Not everybody is Albert Pujols. (Thankfully)


Throwing down the middle to the catcher (where ever he may be set up) is quite different than throwing down the middle of the plate. FWIW, if my pitcher is going to throw a FB down the middle of the plate, it's going to be low or hands high, this is completely different than throwing down what is considered the middle, would you agree? By the way, that is for FB, does not include FB which is usually thrown in practice (bullpen sessions). Agreed?



The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).

Of note also, what may be addressed is that for some hitters they have hot zones that aren't over the heart of the plate. Some like it high and inside a little, others like it middle away, etc. We assume that it is never good to throw over the heart of the plate and yet fail to realize the circumstances at hand, scouting reports, etc.

I know that in HS ball, one of the tendencies for young batters is to stand too far away from the plate. They hold the bat straight out from their bodies and if they can reach the outside of the plate from that location they think they are good. What they fail to realize is that when they get a pitch over the heart of the plate, they are trying to square it up, perhaps even pull the ball and their hips are squared up to the ball (normal) and what they don't take into account is that their outside shoulder is now 8-12 inches more to the inside and that translates into not being able to even reach the middle of the plate.

How and where a batter sets himself effects where he can effectively hit the ball. So whereas we always see "middle" as bad, perhaps we don't take into account the other factors of a batters hot zone, where they are setting up, etc.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Gosh, I didn't read any part of Coach Corral's comments to suggest that he is coaching his pitchers, in bullpens, to throw down the middle, the general heart of the plate. What I read is he using his charting and grading to demonstrate those locations would be graded a "minus" in a bullpen session. Hopefully, he will clarify.
What I read from the posts in this thread from the Coach is he uses bullpens in conjunction with a grading mechanism to assess the quality of the pitches in a single bullpen, and then compared and contrasted, chart by chart over time.
What I read, and most everyone knows, is pitchers make mistakes on location. Some location mistakes can still be plus pitches depending on location down, for instance. I doubt many of the charts Coach might see have no location mistakes.
Most every pitcher acknowledges location mistakes after a game with the W or L, often times, resulting from whether they "got away" with the mistake or hitters made them "pay" for the mistake.
What I read is each pitch is graded based on location within the chart. Coach repeatedly emphasized down is graded a plus, down and away, down and in are plus graded. He also clearly says middle in for location is graded a minus.
I would speculate the location of "middle" and "general heart of the plate" is also graded a minus in charting of a bullpen session.
Coach Corral emphasizes that "missing" middle can still be graded a plus, if the location is down.
What I also read and understood is Coach describing that he coaches his pitchers to use bullpens in a way which simulates game conditions, with the charting replacing an umpire.
I would ask Coach Corral to comment on whether he coaches his pitchers to locate middle and in the "general heart of the plate" in bullpens and games and whether pitches in those locations are to be graded "plus" pitches, using his system.
Last edited by infielddad
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Gosh, I didn't read any part of Coach Corral's comments to suggest that he is coaching his pitchers, in bullpens, to throw down the middle, the general heart of the plate.


Here we go again...
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Why are you interpreting for Coach Corral? Is he unable to post for himself?

As far as here we go again, I do believe that responding and quoting me is what started it up again. Correct?
Last edited by TPM
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Coach Corral,
Thanks for posting the info and the clips. Could you please expand on use of the boxes in the clips? I read the "script 40 pitches" post but still unclear on the purpose of the configuration of the two middle (height) boxes, why multiple boxes are shaded for some pitches, etc.


The shaded area is for the intended quadrant or location of the pitch. For instance, the box in which the two corner boxes are shaded and I have scripted to throw a S-FB-GSD, Pending on thepitcher being left or right handed would determine the intended quadrant. Keeps the chart functional for both. In ofr near the quadrant I would place location as plus. Opposite or elevated or non-competitive, I place with a minus. If in the dirt I place a minus with a line over it.

As for the middle box, I prefer our middle location to be in the lower one for a plus and upper a minus. In some boxes I will call for an elevated FB this being chest to eye level high.

The whole plus /minus is for intended location or quadrant grading. By grading it out you can then summarize and truly get a read on your strengths and defciencies. I am sorry if this is bringing about too much belly aching. I would prefer to thinking of anything I throw out here to be thought of as food for thought. Coach Weinstein would always state it like this..."It's a buffet of information, take what you want."

Hope this helps.
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Strikes are hard as it is to throw at any amatuer level and even lower professional levels. Why would you want to cut the plate in half or in thirds all the time and ever expect to get ahead. Hitter's don't swing at every pitch. Coach Weinstein made a very good point in one of the threads, stating that 68% of all batted balls in play result in outs. What is so tough about this thought? Great hiiters will get out 6-7 times every 10 at bats. Why are we afraid of the middle? If the middle was so easily crushable, why have we not seen an endless display of homeruns in batting practice or in a HR Derby? The reason is that, hitting is tough.
Last edited by Fred Corral
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
I would speculate the location of "middle" and "general heart of the plate" is also graded a minus in charting of a bullpen session.
Coach Corral emphasizes that "missing" middle can still be graded a plus, if the location is down.
What I also read and understood is Coach describing that he coaches his pitchers to use bullpens in a way which simulates game conditions, with the charting replacing an umpire.
I would ask Coach Corral to comment on whether he coaches his pitchers to locate middle and in the "general heart of the plate" in bullpens and games and whether pitches in those locations are to be graded "plus" pitches, using his system.


I hope I am reading this correctly but my response would be that I have my pitchers throw to all locations including the middle of the plate, "the "right down broadway"" location. There are guys that I know for a fact in the SEC and other big conferences that cannot catch up to an 85-87 MPH fastball. This is across the board everywhere. I have a pitcher that throws 96 and step throws at 101. Why would I not have him throw to an area in which this type of hitter cannot hurt him (even an umpire). It produces the greater chances of being a strike in the middle and through the catcher?? (Before anyone goes here...I understand down is better than up.)
Why do they show a "completely shaded" strikezone on MLB games? If middle was bad, why wouldn't they cease to corrupt our youth by not showing a [] empty center illustration?

I have many reasons for using both quadrants, high and low, the above overpowering pitcher /weak hitter match up was just one. I will give another reason and that is because we have a "in on the hands" location and a "down and in" location. Being that I teach my guys to direct themselves to the target...It is important to throw both. It is the catcher's position that makes the middle up a "in on the hands" location and the middle down an "down and in location.

I don't mean this as a knock on your assesment of me infielddad. I may make another movie to illustrate this better. Typing stinks. I really appreciate this.
Last edited by Fred Corral
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Why are you interpreting for Coach Corral? Is he unable to post for himself?

As far as here we go again, I do believe that responding and quoting me is what started it up again. Correct?


No, you still seem bent on proving GBM wrong that no one ever throws down the middle on purpose, and especially "never" in a bullpen, heaven forbid! I think perhaps that you still think every hitter in the lineup is an Albert Pujols and will crush anything in the middle of the strike zone. We beat this issue to death in a previous post and I think we all came out of with the general consensus that pitchers don't really have pinpoint control and they do pitch more down the middle when they get behind or when a not so good hitter such as a pitcher is up.

Every good knowledgable coach will tell you there are times in games where a catcher sets up downt he middle to give a nice big target for a pitcher to try to hit. No coach will deny that fact, I guarentee it. You still seem to want to prove me wrong that teaching my sophmore son to throw a strike when he gets out of control is a bad bad thing. So what do you suggest to a HS pitcher who has a situation where he has walked 2 consecutive batters, and now have bases loaded with a 2-0 or a 3-0 count? You gonna say- "try to hit the corner"? Any good coach is gonna have his catcher set up a target down the middle and hope that the pitch comes somewhere close enough to be called a strike.
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Please don't take my post here as an argument against you. You make great points and perhaps the difference is that one sees the glass as half empty and the other as half full (you understand that great argument).


Thanks TPM..I don't take arguments or debate as a minus.
I do understand the half full or half empty argument. I also know the "glass is full" parable also. I never want to appear that mine does not have any more space for information. Please let me know where your son is playing right now? I am sorry I don't know.
Last edited by Fred Corral
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So what do you suggest to a HS pitcher who has a situation where he has walked 2 consecutive batters, and now have bases loaded with a 2-0 or a 3-0 count?


GBM,
Correct me if I am wrong, but no where was the original scenerio you gave, "what do you say to a HS pitcher". If I recall it had something to do with throwing one down the middle to Albert Pujols in a 3-0 in a WS game bases loaded. That's why you have them (so you stated) throw down the middle of the plate, in pens, just in case. You challenged us that he would walk rather than hit and that is where the debate began. You then proceeded as you normally do to change everything as to acceptable situations since you probably realized the original scenerio was just silly.

Come on GBM you are talking HS ball and then giving us ML scenerios. I don't get it, you talk up yourself to be such an expert, you don't know what to call in a 2-0, 3-0 count? You have told us that you support breaking balls at 10, not anymore?

I hope that you understand what I am trying to say, it's not about trying to make you look bad, you take care of that all by yourself!

Coach Corral,
I apologize for having to reply in the same post. I think that you have been careful in your response as not to insult or defend anyone. Please do not ever think that anyone ever stated that throwing one down the "heart of the plate" never happens and never is intended or is bad. We all know and understand there are situations where a power pitcher can throw one (FB) down the middle of the plate and get away with it. We also understand that as the player moves from level to level this gets harder to achieve because of the results that may occur. I concur with how difficult it is to throw strikes, that is why I stated that if everyone could do it they would be pitching.

Please note that NO one here is challenging YOU.

One question, you have stated that you do teach your pitchers to throw down the middle of the plate, but you did not mention which type of pitch, FB? CB? That's ok, you don't have to answer, I see that you didn't most of my questions above.

BTW, I am not talking about the situation where the power guy over the weak hitter.

Ironically, my son was once a Tiger (Clemson) and he also plays in Memphis (Redbird).
Last edited by TPM
R realteamcoach100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The way I interpreted Coach Corral is that pitchers do throw down the middle, meaning the general heart of the plate, and this because- not everyone is Albert Pujols. Thanks to all the evidence, it clearly shows that pitchers throw actually quite a lot of pitches down the middle (meaning over the heart of the plate).


Why are you interpreting for Coach Corral? Is he unable to post for himself?

As far as here we go again, I do believe that responding and quoting me is what started it up again. Correct?


No, you still seem bent on proving GBM wrong that no one ever throws down the middle on purpose, and especially "never" in a bullpen, heaven forbid! I think perhaps that you still think every hitter in the lineup is an Albert Pujols and will crush anything in the middle of the strike zone. We beat this issue to death in a previous post and I think we all came out of with the general consensus that pitchers don't really have pinpoint control and they do pitch more down the middle when they get behind or when a not so good hitter such as a pitcher is up.

Every good knowledgable coach will tell you there are times in games where a catcher sets up downt he middle to give a nice big target for a pitcher to try to hit. No coach will deny that fact, I guarentee it. You still seem to want to prove me wrong that teaching my sophmore son to throw a strike when he gets out of control is a bad bad thing. So what do you suggest to a HS pitcher who has a situation where he has walked 2 consecutive batters, and now have bases loaded with a 2-0 or a 3-0 count? You gonna say- "try to hit the corner"? Any good coach is gonna have his catcher set up a target down the middle and hope that the pitch comes somewhere close enough to be called a strike.


As a HS coach, I call the middle fastball a pretty good amount of the time. I would say everyone does. I couldn't tell you about MLB, as I haven't coached at that level, but I can assure you that colleges also call middle fastballs, both in games and in bullpens.

If one of our pitchers has walked 2 consecutive batters and has a 2-0 count, he won't need advice, he won't be pitching anymore.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Strikes are hard as it is to throw at any amatuer level and even lower professional levels. Why would you want to cut the plate in half or in thirds all the time and ever expect to get ahead. Hitter's don't swing at every pitch. Coach Weinstein made a very good point in one of the threads, stating that 68% of all batted balls in play result in outs. What is so tough about this thought? Great hiiters will get out 6-7 times every 10 at bats. Why are we afraid of the middle? If the middle was so easily crushable, why have we not seen an endless display of homeruns in batting practice or in a HR Derby? The reason is that, hitting is tough.


Finally, someone of knowledge injecting common sense into a discussion. Thanks for sharing your experience Fred.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
I hope I am reading this correctly but my response would be that I have my pitchers throw to all locations including the middle of the plate, "the "right down broadway"" location. There are guys that I know for a fact in the SEC and other big conferences that cannot catch up to an 85-87 MPH fastball. This is across the board everywhere. I have a pitcher that throws 96 and step throws at 101. Why would I not have him throw to an area in which this type of hitter cannot hurt him (even an umpire). It produces the greater chances of being a strike in the middle and through the catcher?? (Before anyone goes here...I understand down is better than up.)


Coach,
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the feedback and your thoughts. You surely have more knowledge/experience than I do. I hope the discussion(limited by typing and a message board) can be developed a bit further.
I come at this as a fan(long time season Stanford ticket holder) and personally(son is an assistant/ hitting coach in the Big West.)
As a fan, I readily see the difference between your guy at 96-100. We watch Mark Appel at Stanford. Appel may be the #1 pick in 2012 with his 96 mph FB now coupled with a change up/breaking ball and solid command.
What I am referencing in my posts are not those guys. Rather, my comments have been focused on the majority of college pitchers/hitters.
At Stanford, as you know, they have plenty of power arms. However, not all of them are.
They have some who are 90 and below who are darn good/probably better than that. Those are the ones I was thinking of in terms of location and the plus/minus.
Watching Stanford for many, many years suggests Stanford does not call the game/locations for someone at or below 90mph the same as Appel.
Pitchers at 90mph and below at Stanford can struggle pitching middle and middle in and up against college hitters. From our seats at Sunken behind home plate, it appears a game called for location to the catcher, for most pitchers, is quite different than Appel based on catcher set up/location.
On the personal side, as the parent of a college hitting coach in the Big West Conference, I love to learn what he is doing/sees during a game. What he tells me is, as a player and now as a coach, he wants hitters to get into counts/situations where they can get pitches, especially FB's, which are middle/middle in. Especially for the 6-9 guys, pitches in those locations increase averages and runners.
I very much appreciate the .320 average for balls put in play, but wonder if we both would agree those numbers could/likely are higher for pitches middle/middle in with college hitters (not including your guy or Appel?)
Part of what I understand our son is teaching is to lay off pitches you classify as being in a plus location, to the extent the count allows, and be aggressive on those I believe you are rating a minus location. I realize this is a broad generalization.
I guess I might summarize my thoughts and impressions with the idea that a college pitcher will be far more successful at 88-91 by staying in plus locations with more than one pitch/speed. The more a college pitcher who is below 90mph is not able to pitch consistently into plus locations, the better a coach like our son and his hitters will fare.
I fully recognize pitchers miss location and hitters miss pitches that look like beach balls(other than Pujols last night)
Hope this might help explain what I was thinking as I read your posts/viewed your charts.
Last edited by infielddad
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
So I guess Prime9 you have special knowledge you suggest others posting, like me, don't, huh?


No, I was referring to his ability, not mine, to state his view point in a simple and concise manner that made common sense. No hidden jabs or agendas intended. I would have directed them to you if that were the case.
Last edited by Prime9
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
As for the middle box, I prefer our middle location to be in the lower one for a plus and upper a minus. In some boxes I will call for an elevated FB this being chest to eye level high.


I understand, so when do you call for the FB down the middle, in the scenerio where it is power hitter vs. weaker hitter only?

Again, no one ever said that this was forbiden territory, it's just not someplace most frequently go, correct?

Realteamcoach,
How often (percentage) would you say that you call for the FB up the middle? How much do you practice this in bullpens and why? Just curious because if this is a plus location for a hitter, why would pitchers practice it for frequency. I thought pitching was also trying to NOT GO where the hitter feels most comfortable.
Thanks.
Last edited by TPM
R realteamcoach100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Corral:
As for the middle box, I prefer our middle location to be in the lower one for a plus and upper a minus. In some boxes I will call for an elevated FB this being chest to eye level high.


I understand, so when do you call for the FB down the middle, in the scenerio where it is power hitter vs. weaker hitter only?

Again, no one ever said that this was forbiden territory, it's just not someplace most frequently go, correct?

Realteamcoach,
How often (percentage) would you say that you call for the FB up the middle? How much do you practice this in bullpens and why? Just curious because if this is a plus location for a hitter, why would pitchers practice it for frequency. I thought pitching was also trying to NOT GO where the hitter feels most comfortable.
Thanks.


Very good question. In our pre-season bullpens, we throw quite a bit down the middle and at the knees, then progress to down and away, then changeups and curveballs for strikes. As we get into the season, we will rarely throw fastballs over the middle of the plate in our bullpens, unless we are specifically working on a mechanical change...for example, when working on our delivery times with our younger pitchers, we will "aim for the middle" as we don't want to complicate our issues at hand.

I have also found success with our pitchers who are struggling in pre-game to throw fastballs down the middle, as it can build some confidence in their strike-throwing. Taking confidene to the mound is huge, so no matter how bad our guy looks in the pen in pre-game, we want him to build off something.

When calling pitches in-game, I call middle fastballs when there is nobody on base and we are in a negative count with a non-power hitter. If we are up by multiple runs late in the game and fall behind, we also go with middle fastballs.

I would put our percentage of middle fastballs at 15 percent on a normal day. However, when I was fortunate enough to have a pitching staff with a guy who now pitches for the Astros, and our #2 went to Stanford, we called more middle fastballs than that.

Because we focus so much on our defense, especially on the IF, we preach to never walk guys, so it doesn't bother me when guys miss over the middle. Last season, we walked 34 guys in 181 innings....but I could see with a lesser pitching staff, or more ineffective defense, we would have pitched to black more often.

Finally, I understand that we are talking HS baseball here. If I was a Division 1 head coach, and had certain types of pitchers, I could see never calling a middle fastball all year....but in HS, it is going to be a necessity with every member of your staff.
R realteamcoach100+ posts
To expound further, I have always thought that if you play good baseball, you could allow 8-10 hits, and hold your opponent to 3 or 4 runs. You have to not walk guys, hold runners, and play clean defensively. Therefore, with certain members of our staff, I will encourage middle fastballs when we play in bigger parks, figuring that if the opponent gets 3 singles in an inning, and only gets 1 run, we will win that game.

In HS baseball, most games are lost...not won. Therefore, anything that helps us limit mistakes helps us win.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
I hope my son could play against these teams that are throwing down the middle to any batter Smile

We don't see teams doing that around here, and son's team doesn't do it. (They will do it if they are 3-0 on a weak hitter, and the game situation is right.)

I had rather son give up a walk from a #4 hitter than give up a HR... and momentum (refer Pujols 3HR). Plus, that walk is a DP setup for a groundball.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
RealTeamCoach,
I appreciate your response.
I have found for most that up the middle often means middle up and middle down. I appreciate your reply as to my question, without having to go to great lengths to prove otherwise.
It's refreshing to hear someone say, hey this is what I really meant. It makes us all more human instead of trying it twist and change to your advantage.
I've got to go with points on what you and Coach Corral have posted (based on who is on your pitching staff) as well as the mitt/glove set up in the middle to keep the player focused (which no one ever disputed). I also appreciate you keeping in mind that this is HS and college baseball that you are referring to, not the professional game.

Being a MO resident, Kansas City or Cardinals?
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I had rather son give up a walk from a #4 hitter than give up a HR... and momentum (refer Pujols 3HR). Plus, that walk is a DP setup for a groundball.


I don't agree, I would rather see the pitcher give up a hit than a walk(walks are not considered good who ever my son has ever played for) and on the next batter go for the DP.

If the intention is to walk the hitter, why throw anything, just walk him.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So what do you suggest to a HS pitcher who has a situation where he has walked 2 consecutive batters, and now have bases loaded with a 2-0 or a 3-0 count?


GBM,
Correct me if I am wrong, but no where was the original scenerio you gave, "what do you say to a HS pitcher". If I recall it had something to do with throwing one down the middle to Albert Pujols in a 3-0 in a WS game bases loaded. That's why you have them (so you stated) throw down the middle of the plate, in pens, just in case. You challenged us that he would walk rather than hit and that is where the debate began. You then proceeded as you normally do to change everything as to acceptable situations since you probably realized the original scenerio was just silly.

Come on GBM you are talking HS ball and then giving us ML scenerios. I don't get it, you talk up yourself to be such an expert, you don't know what to call in a 2-0, 3-0 count? You have told us that you support breaking balls at 10, not anymore?

I hope that you understand what I am trying to say, it's not about trying to make you look bad, you take care of that all by yourself!



Look TPM, you are trying to undermine my philosophy of teaching bullpens where a small percentage of our work is to work on throwing strikes with the catcher set up downt he middle. Once JH challenged my philosophy on that issue you were quick to jump on board. You are still trying to somehow prove that throwing any pitch in a bullpen down the middle is a bad thing and that i don't have any clue on what I am doing.

But, it seems rather apparent that I am not the only one teaching HS kids on throwing strikes when they need it. You can keep this debate going as long as you want to but in the end you will only have dug a pit for yourself.

I believe there are many things that we do agree upon. I do believe we both agree that pitchers do in fact throw down the middle, sometimes on purpose and sometimes not. But we both know the facts that pitchers do throw down the middle. We also agree that pitchers don't have the precision control that we often times give them. We also agree that even when batters get one down the middle the odds are still overwhelmingly in favor of the pitcher on that individual pitch.

Originally I picked out some scenerio off the top of my head such as like I explained- game seven of WS, tied in the bottom of 14th inning, bases loaded, 3-0 count to Pujols and where is the catcher going to set up? It really doesn't matter what the original situation was (BTW in 3-0 counts, over his career, Pujols walks 80% of the time, which is an indicator that he most likely will take a pitch in that scenerio), what matters is the fact of my original intent- that catchers do in fact set up a target down the middle of the plate to provide the best odds of getting a strike when they need it.

If bullpens are in fact where a pitcher and catcher work out their game situations, then by all means, I am going to do a small percentage of bullpen work where the pressure is on for them to throw a strike. And the best way i am going to achieve that is by having the catcher set up downt he middle. I said this next bit previously in a PM but it applies here-

If we designate the absolute "center" "heart of the plate" as a large grapefruit, what are the odds of a pitcher hitting that grapefruit from 60 feet away on the very next pitch (imagine a 2-0, 3-0 count)? This is the target a catcher will give to the pitcher when he falls behind. The odds of him hitting that grapefruit on the very next pitch is probably less than 1 in 10, especially for a HS pitcher. Now if we imagine a pumpkin, what are the odds of him hitting the pumpkin from 60 feet away? Probably better than 50%.

My point here is that when I work bullpens with my pitchers and we work a scenerio like bases loaded and a 2-0 or 3-0 count I want the catcher to set up his grapefruit right down the middle as a target with the real intention of hitting the much larger pumpkin which represents the actual strike zone. If he hits the strike zone using the "down the middle" target, then we call that success.

We have gone over this time and time again and we all agree that pitchers need to learn how to throw to a target- the catchers mitt. There is another drill we do sometimes in out bullpens where the catcher sets up down the middle and the pitcher, after he has warmed up to his likening, is given 10 pitches. He must try to throw, with good velocity, as many strikes as he can out of those 10 pitches. Does this mean the pitcher is going to hit the exact center every time? Heck no! Who can do that? But, they may hit it once or twice out of ten. Our good pitchers in this drill can usually hit the strike zone with the fastball around 7 out of 10 most of the time. Our weaker pitchers are lucky to do this 6 out of 10. The point to this drill is learning how to throw hard and hit your target at the same time.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Coach Corral,
I apologize for having to reply in the same post. I think that you have been careful in your response as not to insult or defend anyone. Please do not ever think that anyone ever stated that throwing one down the "heart of the plate" never happens and never is intended or is bad. We all know and understand there are situations where a power pitcher can throw one (FB) down the middle of the plate and get away with it. We also understand that as the player moves from level to level this gets harder to achieve because of the results that may occur. I concur with how difficult it is to throw strikes, that is why I stated that if everyone could do it they would be pitching.

Please note that NO one here is challenging YOU.

One question, you have stated that you do teach your pitchers to throw down the middle of the plate, but you did not mention which type of pitch, FB? CB? That's ok, you don't have to answer, I see that you didn't most of my questions above.

BTW, I am not talking about the situation where the power guy over the weak hitter.

Ironically, my son was once a Tiger (Clemson) and he also plays in Memphis (Redbird).


quote:
It's refreshing to hear someone say, hey this is what I really meant. It makes us all more human instead of trying it twist and change to your advantage.
I've got to go with points on what you and Coach Corral have posted (based on who is on your pitching staff) as well as the mitt/glove set up in the middle to keep the player focused (which no one ever disputed). I also appreciate you keeping in mind that this is HS and college baseball that you are referring to, not the professional game.


TPM,
You did place me in the post and the tone you carried with GBM carried on to me as I read it. I understand that you stated that no one is challenging me. I am ok with any one challenging me, if I wasn’t I would not posts my thoughts on the simplicity of things. I expect to be challenged. It is part of the learning process.

I have answered your questions to the best of my ability and will do so on the last question of which pitches do I have or instruct my pitchers to throw to the center of our catcher in a moment.

I will first try to become a bit more refreshing in trying to convey what I meant when I started this thread.
It was my intent to share the following in my 1st post.
1. Focus and intent is the primary aspect to hitting your target.
2. Mechanics are not as important (to focus and intent) in the whole target hitting concept.
3. That in charting your pen with a desired location, and grading it with a plus or minus, through summarizing the chart, one can assess strengths and weaknesses. (Offered both charts that I have used for years)
4. Understand that the simplicity of “making a pitch” is as simple as throwing the pitch to the catcher. If you can throw the ball down the middle to your catcher you can then simplify the process by directing to your catcher, who is either in or out.

I will try to convey this last point with another example.

DIRECTING YOURSELF TO THE TARGET
Stand at the point of home plate and square yourself up to the 3rd base bag.
Look down at your feet. You will see that the edge of the plate that goes out to 1st. If the point continued on in to the stands in the opposite direction, that line would run perpendicular to the 3rd base line. Go through your delivery as if that perpendicular line is your pitching rubber and throw a strike to the center of a catcher straddling the base line.
Repeat the process facing the 1st base line. (Make sure you square up and look down)
Now turn and face the pitcher’s mound from home plate.
Repeat the process for both outside edges of the pitching rubber. 1st and 3rd base side.

Explanation attempt number 2

Think of two rays that share the same starting point.
At 6 ft out the two rays would be one and quarter inches apart and at 60’6” they are 21 inches apart.
Think of both as your stride line to both end points of 60’6”.
Now being that you don’t want to swing your stride leg open to throw a pitch glove side, which would alter your delivery. Simply adjust your back foot just slightly and your delivery remains the same.

This is all that I tried to convey in starting this. For it to end up like the previous two threads that I tried to combine with this one, was a waste because it ended up that way. It was to bring about a thought process or to shed light on something people might not consider because of its simplicity.

How many years has your son been pitching professionally? Has he gotten any taste of the “Show” yet? I hope that I will be able to enjoy that someday if my son’s decide to pursue it. It must be awesome.

As for the question of which pitches do I instruct our pitchers to throw to the middle of the plate. My answer is and always has been all of them. With the above technique please note that it is the catcher’s position that makes it in or out. Remember to that in changing your “self” talk from “Fastball down and away” to “Fastball, catcher is setting up away” or “Fastball in on the hands’ to “Fastball up (hands), catcher is setting up in.”. This helps with the CB and also makes for a crisper backdoor CB. It also lessens the opportunity of a bad backdoor CB coming back over the plate.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Fred Corral
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
I very much appreciate the .320 average for balls put in play, but wonder if we both would agree those numbers could/likely are higher for pitches middle/middle in with college hitters (not including your guy or Appel?)

Here are some information slides I have on over 8 years of abs through out the big leagues for batting averages and zones.
Even through the heart of the plate, (the best zone for the hitter) the pitcher wins 6 out of 10 times.

https://picasaweb.google.com/l...S98Q?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/l...tO3Q?feat=directlink

Here is a slide I compiled from the information of Inside Edge pertaining to counts based on close to 150,000 at bats in 2008.
https://picasaweb.google.com/l...-fUg?feat=directlink

I liked your post even though you are a Stanford fan. Razz A great guy to communicate on percentages/ averages/locations is Dean Stotz. He is an awesome coach and person. When you get past the whole Stanford thing.
Last edited by Fred Corral
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
DIRECTING YOURSELF TO THE TARGET
Stand at the point of home plate and square yourself up to the 3rd base bag.
Look down at your feet. You will see that the edge of the plate that goes out to 1st. If the point continued on in to the stands in the opposite direction, that line would run perpendicular to the 3rd base line. Go through your delivery as if that perpendicular line is your pitching rubber and throw a strike to the center of a catcher straddling the base line.
Repeat the process facing the 1st base line. (Make sure you square up and look down)
Now turn and face the pitcher’s mound from home plate.
Repeat the process for both outside edges of the pitching rubber. 1st and 3rd base side.

Explanation attempt number 2

Think of two rays that share the same starting point.
At 6 ft out the two rays would be one and quarter inches apart and at 60’6” they are 21 inches apart.
Think of both as your stride line to both end points of 60’6”.
Now being that you don’t want to swing your stride leg open to throw a pitch glove side, which would alter your delivery. Simply adjust your back foot just slightly and your delivery remains the same.

This is all that I tried to convey in starting this. For it to end up like the previous two threads that I tried to combine with this one, was a waste because it ended up that way. It was to bring about a thought process or to shed light on something people might not consider because of its simplicity.


Fred,

I want to make sure I understand this completely and have been trying to figure this out. Are you advocating that when pitching to the glove that the post foot should not be parallel with the rubber but to be angled in a manner that you will be lined up with the glove when you lift your lead leg?
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Fred,

I want to make sure I understand this completely and have been trying to figure this out. Are you advocating that when pitching to the glove that the post foot should not be parallel with the rubber but to be angled in a manner that you will be lined up with the glove when you lift your lead leg?


If you mean as in having the toes slightly ahead of the heal on a gloveside pitch. Simply, yes. Please watch the video I placed in the original post at the start. Luke Hochevar demos this very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvMluzA5tnA
Here is a pic of the slide I presented at a coaching clinic.
https://picasaweb.google.com/l...ACYg?feat=directlink

Hope this helps
Last edited by Fred Corral
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Fred,
Thank you from explaining it to me and it makes a lot of sense. Just a not, your picaseweb slide would not come up. Here is a question. We call all the pitches from the dugout. I can understand how a pitcher can make this adjustment out of the wind up because his pivot foot is freed up with the rocker step. Is it possible to make this adjust out of the stretch once the sign has been received?
FC Fred Corral10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Fred,
Thank you from explaining it to me and it makes a lot of sense. Just a not, your picaseweb slide would not come up. Here is a question. We call all the pitches from the dugout. I can understand how a pitcher can make this adjustment out of the wind up because his pivot foot is freed up with the rocker step. Is it possible to make this adjust out of the stretch once the sign has been received?


How do I get a picture to post? Need help with that as they are information slides.

If you can picture the ray example or better yet do what I did and run a string from one corner of the plate to a nail in front of the rubber and back to the other side of home plate. get in your power position with your basefoot on the nail or where the strings come together. Switch from the right string to the left, in both re-adjust your pivot foot. You will find that the difference in both to keep the delivery the same will, probably be the movement you have of extra space in your shoe. Very small adjustment.
Last edited by Fred Corral
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