A-Rod Vs. MLB on 60 Minutes...

Darn, we just missed the 2014 Peoples Choice Awards last night.  So, for 2015 I nominate ARod & MLB for Best New Drama. 

 

This is really escalating into a fantastic Greek tragedy.  

PLEASE.......PLEASE WILL THIS JUST GO AWAY???????  LET'S FIND A NEW HORSE TO BEAT TO DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was intrigued by the testosterone "gummy's" that he took prior to games to elevate test levels during games. Steroids have always been considered training drugs in that you take them to workout longer, harder, heavier in order to produce better results on the field. The idea that you take some form of test to get better results on a daily basis of use while playing is unique. Or may be I'm just behind on the new drug technology.

 

What shocked me was how easy it was to pass the testing that was in place. I am afraid that the protocols will need to be significantly improved if we are ever going to get to the point that there is a reasonable confidence that athletes are on the same playing field. (bio/chemically speaking)

What surprises me is that ARod continues to adamantly deny it.  What world is this guy living in???

 

Well, for one, I wouldn't put it past these people to be taking them in a way that is inherently wrong/based on flawed logic. Being illegal, steroids are typically used with questionable advice that is filtered through various users that are not really qualified to be advising people.

 

Beyond that, steroids can have very positive effects on exercise recovery. In that sense, you can see how a late 30's ballplayer would benefit from taking them during a season.

 

 

They recently added what is called longitudinal testing, at the suggestion of dirtbag-turned-testing-guru Victor Conte and others. What used to trigger a test is if the testosterone:epitestosterone ratio in the urine was higher than 4:1. A normal person will tend to be 1:1 in this regard. Other than not juicing during testing season, this used to be avoidable by essentially adding some epitestosterone into the player's regimen. This longitudinal testing adds another component: if the test:epitest ratio is too dissimilar from your previous tests, you'll be flagged. I believe there is another aspect, which is overall prevalence of testosterone. Very few people will experience the wild swings in testosterone levels that a steroid user will (not just high levels, but also extremely low levels when they are cycling off). It isn't bulletproof, but it is a lot harder to beat longitudinal testing.

Coach2709, I'm with you. Go away, disappear,vaya con dios! We have heard enough lying from this guy's mouth. Used to think of him as one of the best I have seen play the game. Should have been known as a great player, now. who cares. Go away.

Deep down, I know Arod wants to give Barry Bonds a run for his money as the biggest a-hole to play the game.   After reading Game of Shadows many years ago, I think I may have overestimated Bonds and underestimated Arod.   It is neck and neck right now.   

I don't know if A-rod used or didn't use. My head hurts over all of this. But the one thing that gets me steamed was the complete absence last night of the supplying to area high school athletes (south florida) peds by Tony Bosch. We are talking HGH and Sermorelin here. Not a b-12 shot. At least 12 High School athletes have been linked with Biogenesis and I think it was a serious mistake not to have that brought up last night. Tony Bosch is not doing this for any other reason then to save himself. And MLB is now having to defend him, pay for his lawyers in this investigation. MLB will look really really bad when this hits the fan. No due diligence on their part . Or maybe they wanted A-Rod so bad that they are now dancing with the Devil in order to do that. No wonder Selig is getting out now. Next Commissioner will be holding this bag. Not good.

Mount Rushmore:  Bonds, Arod, Clemens, Palmeiro.

Fenway, wouldn't it be sweet if it was tied up in court for years, causing the Yankees to have to pay the life of the contract to Arod, pushing them over the luxury tax each year?  ((just picking you b/c of screen name))

I agree, there is a lot more to this than supplying millionaires with PED's.

I am not defending Arod or anyone else who was involved, but this is a very sad situation, the man should be in jail.

All he is doing is trying to get as much $$ as he can from whoever he can and save his own rear end.

 

Wonder how much he got paid for that interview last night?

 

 I believe that the lying Nutritionist is telling the truth....this time.

oldmanmoses, I agree with you.

 

Is this guy the only witness in this case?  Why are all the witnesses in these cases some dirtbag that is trying to stay out of prison?  Sure it appears that all or most of these guys used, but can't they find any witnesses other than the scumbags they get. After all, there are people out there that would say or do anything to help themselves. This guy is just another one of those types.

 

So now you have two guys ARod and Bosch, one that we think is lying. Is the other guy that honest.  Have to admit, those text messages, though a bit confusing, don't look good for ARod.

 

I think everyone is getting tired of all this stuff.  Wish they would do whatever needs to be done to clean up the game.  While they are at it maybe they should rename the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Outstanding Honest Citizens.  Of course then they would have to get rid of some of the current members.

 

Anyway, these gummy bears taken right before the game are an interesting new topic.  Kind of sounds like a Viagra type drug but for performance on the ball field.  They better stop that quickly, because those gummy bears are going to be in great demand. Especially for those playing in the Super Bowl.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it is even possible to keep athletics completely clean?  Guess the big penalties are the only answer.

Absolutely Go44dad.   Not a day goes by that I don't think of that Yankee payroll scenario playing out.

 

What I didn't get out of the 60 Minutes interview was why did they bring Arod's punishment down from 211 to 162 + playoffs.   What was the logic or precedent behind Selig or Manfred's decision on that?  I was waiting for that question or answer to come up but it never did.

 

My Mount Rushmore is going to be expanded from four, and require more stone masons. 

 

 

So now Stray-Rod files a civil suit...never gonna  go very far.

 

     Do you really think he will sit at a conference table filled with lawyers and be deposed, having to answer all of their questions under oath, at the risk of perjury charges. I don't see him being able to handle that...and note he did not testify in the arbitration hearing.

 

   On 60 Minutes, the number of text messages with a dirt bag did it for me. Why else would he be exchanging text messages with the guy-was Madonna busy??? 

 

 

 

Yeah, there were a lot of questions left unanswered.  It sure would have been nice if either Selig or the MLB reps would have gone into more detail instead of leaving things vague with their general statements. I was left feeling pretty sure A-Rod is guilty of most of what was said but really wanting something more concrete than relying on statements of someone like Bosch. 

I was also left feeling that three individuals came off as particularly shady in that piece (just my eye and ear test). Bosch, A-Rod and A-Rod's lawyer.

 

Oldmanmoses - What you say is right on the money. I think it's more the second scenario you describe, ie they knew what they were getting into with bosch but really wanted rodriguez that badly. No doubt it got personal with the commissioner, who should have been on this at least ten years earlier.  But regardless... to start salvaging some integrity and protect the game, I think that MLB had to get this done.

 

In the long run bosch doesn't matter... he's just one more parasite who doesn't care about PEDs one way or another, just using his in-demand knowledge to make a buck.  He doesn't see a problem with ingesting PEDs in the first place, much like comments that you hear from some HOF voters.  I even heard Bill James recently spouting the idea that essentially steroids and the like "weren't that big a deal... We'll all be using them increasingly in the years to come".  It's surprising to me in fact how often this same outlook is espoused right here on the High School baseball web.  As for the HS and college kids who are delving into PEDs, and I'm afraid this may be more prevalent than generally thought, you have to blame those players as much as the bosches of the world.  They decide what goes into their bodies. But they are kids and they're rationale is that "they're doing it to get to the next level".  They see pros like rodriguez and so many others doing it and getting paid/ basking in the glory... So they do what they see as necessary.  This is the biggest reason why MLB must get this out of the game to the extent possible. That's a much more important reason than discrediting the bogus stats, HOF pollution, or anything else.  Its an ongoing battle, not a one time fix.

 

Turning a blind eye isn't the answer, though it may seem so to a nation that likes to use pharmaceuticals to address problems and shortcomings... in themselves and their kids. Personally, I don't want to see baseball throw up its hands and go down the road football has.  I was raised on the NFL and still keep up somewhat, but the unreal HGH world of pro football has diminished my interest mightily over the past several years.

The problem... You have a highly competitive person in a highly competitive sport and some will run through a wall in order to catch a fly ball. Some will run through a catcher in order to score. Some will dive into the stands.  In other words they will do most anything to win. Cheating has been around since day one. Corked bats, spit balls, hidden sand paper, etc.  

 

I'm not condoning players using PEDs, but I don't understand why people see it as anything other than competition related.  I admire anyone that can compete hard without taking PEDs.   In a weird sort of way I even admire those that are willing to risk everything in order to win.

 

The only way to clean this up is by handing out very harsh penalties. If you have ever played in a game that seemed as important as life itself, you would know what a competitor is likely to do in order to have an edge. And then when that sports governing body basically allowed it, what does that say?

 

To be completely honest, I would have tried PEDs when I was young.  Now days, there is no reason to be good at anything.

 

The reason I say this is because I kind of get tired of hearing about how evil and worthless these athletes are that used PEDs. These are not people we have to worry about stealing our money or assaulting us. Let's figure out who the true evil people are in this world.

 

Cheating is a special kind of evil.  I can defend myself against a robber (maybe/maybe not).  I can't do anything about someone who cheats against me in sports.  Or is an inside trader of a manipulated stock that many lose thousands, where someone else gains millions.  Someone who cheats (taxes, stocks, swindles the unknowing).  100 kids run 7.1 in your 60, one cheats to get a 6.9 and gets the scholarship...100 kids hurt, one gains.  A special kind of evil.

For what it's worth, for those wondering what the evidence against A-Rod is, we will soon find out. The arbitrator's decision will be unsealed and made public when the case goes to court. We'll know exactly what the arbitrator found credible and not so credible and more generally, what made an independent party decide A-Rod deserved such a long suspension.

This is not exclusive to baseball. As long as teens getting drafted are getting millions and free agents not even worth it getting paid disgusting amounts of money this will never go away. One thing Bosch said is true. This is a grueling game. Bodies break down. That means lost time and someone takes your spot in the line up. That means longer in the minors making minimum pay. There is too much at stake. No excuses but what do you expect? Shorten the season, salary cap, better pay for minors. I am not sure going after arod will stop it.

Saw the interview. What's w the "associates" that threatened  Bosch allegedly?  Who were they and where do u find these kinds of "associates".  Shady characters for sure. 

I don't see what Aroid is so worked up about.  

 

He cheated.  He gets to keep all the millions he stole from the 3 ball clubs he played for.  

 

He will, hopefully, never get into the Hall of Fame.  So what is the lawsuit trying to prove?

Arod must be mentally ill to not know he is peeing upwind. He passed on a 50, then 100 game suspension until he got a full season. His lawyers are horrible. The only way he gets in the HOF is to buy a ticket.

PG you hit it right on the head. To paraphrase a HOFer Mike Schmidtt, if they were available like this back then I really might have been tempted to use them, you are always looking for an edge. This is how they make their money, this is how they feed their kids. Not saying what's right or wrong but that's the truth. Just a question outside this box, what's worse, a hall of famer throwing a couple of games with another hall of famer or jumping into the stands to beat the crap out of a paraplegic or trying to get an advantage by a chemical? Just asking. Not condoning anything, just asking.

Stray-Rod attached the decision to his suit as an exhibit and it's available for reading on ESPN web site.    He's now thrown a few former players (punished in earlier years) under the bus mentioned in the report as precedent, one way or the other.    Hard to read the report without an overwhelming sense that A-Roid was practically swimming in PED's for a long time.

I don't see why Bud Selig or other owners and tv networks are trying to prove.  They loved the steroids era and made tons and tons of money.  Selig is more disgusting than any of these dope users.  Him and the owners knew this was going on and made billions of $$ off the use; if they are so upset; then give the money back. Nope, they stole the money from fans.

 

Selig showed he is a slime ball by refusing testify in arbitration but runs to the television to be seen.  I hope he loses his shirt over his antics.  I have no love for ARod and I hold Selig to the same quality of person.

 

You have a dope dealer that is on the MLB payroll testifying against ARod.  This thing is long from over and now the idiots of MLB have decided to do an interview and ARod's legal team will get access to every minute and second that was taped by 60 minutes and will get to destroy them in court. Selig can't continue to be a coward in court now that he opened his mouth on national tv.

 PG your right that you don't have to be a evil person to try this, look at how many good people that have shattered their lives with recreation drugs everyday.

 Sometimes I wonder how many juiced fastballs all together have been hit out of the park by these guys.

It's been repeated so often that MLB and Bud Selig tolerated, permitted, willingly profited from, and turned a blind eye to steroid use that nearly everyone accepts it as true.  Similarly, it is often repeated that steroids weren't even prohibited in baseball until some late, recent date.  This claim is also used to support the allegation that owners and the commissioner were complicit in the scandal, or as OA511 puts it "loved the steroids era."

 

Faye Vincent distributed a memo in 1991 clarifying to all clubs that steroid use was prohibited  However, he lacked any enforcement mechanism, the players association had no inclination to negotiate one in the the CBA, and the memo had no legal force within the game.

 

In 2001, MLB unilaterally initiated drug testing for minor league players, who are not members of the union.  They exercised the control they could over the players they could.  

 

At the famous senate subcommittee hearings in 2002, when Sen. McCain said MLB and the players union needed to put a drug policy and testing program in place quickly, everybody in the room agreed, except Don Fehr, the executive director of the players association.  He hemmed and hawed about congress needing to ban over the counter substances and huffed about player privacy rights.  Even under the glare of nationwide attention, he wouldn't agree to negotiate a sensible policy.

 

Only when public opinion focused on the union's stonewalling, did they grudgingly agree to the "survey" testing in 2003 and did they come around at a glacial pace toward acquiescence to today's inadequate testing program that A-Rod and others found so easy to beat.

 

In light of the history, it is a huge distortion to characterize the owners and commissioner as complicit in widespread steroid use.  They couldn't do more than was negotiated into the CBA, and the players took an unconscionably long time to stop protecting the cheaters in their ranks.  

 

Too many fans easily accept the talking points put out by dirty players' lawyers who want people to believe that the owners, and not the steroid users and their enablers in the union, are responsible for the damage to the game.  Responsibility lies most heavily upon those who used PED's and resisted the establishment of an effective policy.  

 

And one more thing, the players who were active back then and now complain about being suspected of cheating may want to re-consider the position they let their union take instead of complaining about being unfairly lumped in with the bad guys.  Cry me a river.

 

The spin from the corrupt owners don't fly with the facts.

 

In the 1980's Steroid use was taking off and the owners turned a blind eye because they could see how bigger, stronger, faster was making the game more attractive and more money in their pockets.

 

The in 1991 Faye says it is illegal but the owners and commissioners were just grandstanding as they didn't fight nor even put up much of a token fight.  The steroid use exploded in the 1990s and the owners realized this was a money cow for them and why ruin a good thing.  So to look like they "cared" 10 years later they push for testing in minor leagues.  Hey; let's not fight against the McGuires, Sosa, Bonds, and several others that was making them money.  Let's gradually clean up the future players but let's keep making money off the steroid use now.

 

The owners never put up a fight until Congress got involved. Yes the players drug their feet, but don't act like the owners were choir boys refusing to cash the checks of the dirty money.  They were making money, loving it and didn't care how it was being made. They are just as dirty and to say other wise is to be naive at best or intellectually dishonest at worst.

I said something similar directed at the TV when it came on. Except I used some words that would get bleeped here. The TV was already on the channel due to the football game.

 

I wanted ARod's suspension to be lifted so the Yankees would be stuck with him and his salary.

OA511, 

 

What exactly did you want the owners to do?  The union had no interest in negotiating a drug policy during the strike in 1994, only got dragged into it in 2002, and even thereafter made it as difficult as possible to have an effective testing program.  They couldn't launch a public campaign on the issue:  the union would have crucified them if they had said there was a widespread problem while they had no proof of widespread use, and it would have been the worst case of brand management malpractice to go public without that proof.  What do you want them to have done that a) they really could have done, and b) might have actually helped?

 

I didn't say anything about anybody being a choir boy.  I was making a point was about the disingenuous position of the players of that era.  Your entire narrative about the owners' private thoughts and motives is 100% speculation designed to reinforce your presuppositions about their character.  Making stuff up doesn't advance the discussion.

 

Ryan Braun must be sending Arod flowers of thanks for taking ALL the heat on this. If he took the 50 games and shut the heck up and stayed out of the news then this too would have passed...pretty easily.

 

I think he's going for broke: total acquital via federal judge. Of course, the odds of him making the HoF are dead, buried, and the tombstone lost.

 

Like others, I think the first offense needs to be increased to a full season and the second is a life time ban.

The MLB actions show they had no concern because they were making money.  This isn't speculation; this is the actions they took or should I say the lack of actions.  If they were so worried about steroid use; why did it take congress getting involved before MLB played the media card.  They could have come out pushing for testing and banning; but they sat silently by.

The owners had no interest in testing and banning their cash cows.  They had no problem standing up to the union and fighing for more games in regular season and standing up and fighting for more teams in playoffs. Oh yeah, they make more money doing those things.  They could only see losses with steroids and couldn't do that.

To pretend that MLB and the commissioners are not 100% = the players union with the use and promotion of steroids is assanine. Ignoring facts and the lack of actions by the owners to reinforce your pressuppsitions about their character doesn't advance the discussion.

 

How are the owners being held liable for their actions in this era? We talk about keeping the players from HOF and giving suspensions and such; what about the owners who promoted it  and promoted the players like Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, ARod and such?  When MLB starts suspending owners and banning owners; then they are serious...oh wait, that doesn't fit their narrative spin being promoted in the media nor on this thread.

MLB would love to keep the media focus on ARod, since there must be hundreds more of these clinics.  This is the tip of the iceberg.

 

Please don't think I believe ARod should get a free pass.  I think him and Braun and others should get banned and receive the scrutiny that they have and will get.  I just believe the owners should be held to the same level of scrutiny and accountability.  They get a free pass from many in the public and on this board.

A concern is that PED's in MLB is following the cycling/olympic (tour de France, etc.) model.  It's a race b/w the clinics to stay ahead of the testing.  I don't know the testing protocols, but they should be collecting and storing samples to allow the testing to catch up in future years.

Go44Dad,

 

You say this is a special kind of evil.  Even compare it to the kid that cheated running the 60 and how that cost 100 other kids A scholarship.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't buy it.  I don't consider these guys evil, at least not because of using PEDs. If taking advantage by cheating is evil, the Hall of Fame has several evil people.  Do you think Gaylord Perry ever cheated? Do you consider him evil? Until just a few years ago, Baseball had no rule against using PEDs. Mark McGwire even had his Andro on full display in the club house. However, they did have a rule against using a foreign substance on a baseball. For some reason illegal bats, throwing doctored baseballs, etc. is just fine with HOF voters. Was it cheating? Was it a special evil?

 

To me evil means something much worse than cheating to get an edge in baseball.  Using the sports world I find it hard to to use the word evil the same way with OJ and ARod.  How about Aaron Hernandez.  

 

Once again, I wish those that have been involved in a high level of athletics would honestly answer this question.  You are playing in the biggest most important game of your life and you will be able to perform your very best by simply eating a gummy bear with testosterone 15 minutes before that game. And you know you will not test positive. Would you have even considered it, knowing it was against the rules?

 

You and I can buy and use testosterone, it's advertised on the radio and TV.  In fact, often it is advertised on sports shows.  It is a performance enhancing drug! Yet I find it hard to see it as anything evil.

 

And do you really think the kid that cheated running the 60 is "evil"?  Do you believe that the 2 tenths he cheated screwed the other 100 out of some opportunity?  Scouts are way too experienced to get fooled by someone cheating at the 60 or doing pop times. Besides, I have a hard time comparing someone taking steroids to some young kid running the 60.

 

Anyway, it kind of amazes me how much hatred there is for these people.  It's like they are serial killers or something.  We seem to think it is not that big a deal when we see a corked bat explode or we find a hidden file in a pitchers glove or grease under the bill of the cap.

 

They need to clean up the game with severe penalties. That is the only way because a lot of competitive athletes are always going to look for an advantage. Our kids have to understand they need to stay away from the temptation.

 

Also, is it just me or does anyone else wonder about how many chemicals are used in the NFL? Once in awhile you read about a player being suspended, but it is always on the back page and hardly ever involves the top players. I love football, but lets face it, some of those guys have proven to be "evil" off the field. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't cheat in the games. Ray Lewis was charged with murder and was found not guilty. Google the entire story about that case! He is now a celebrity and loved by many. And you can bet he will be inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame. Roger Clemens was charged with using PEDs and was found not guilty. He is now labeled for life as being guilty and will not be voted into the MLB Hall of Fame. Strange world we live in!