A-Rod Vs. MLB on 60 Minutes...

I, for one, would like to see steroids decriminalized. For every person juicing up with expertise like A-Rod, there are young men getting it through back channels, risking prison time, having no decent guidance on how to use it, and risking their health to use the stuff. Instead, I'd advocate making it legal through approved healthcare providers.  I don't think (except in the cases of Low T, where it is already legal) it should be covered by health insurance, but instead it can be like plastic surgery where it is seen as a cosmetic category of medicine. Then the people that want to use steroids can do so with guidance from an actual doctor that can keep them from really doing great harm to themselves. It will also keep otherwise benign young men (and a few women) out of jail.

 

I'm not sure if I would want that to be a part of baseball or not, though. Still, one of the worst parts of the "just let them juice, don't make it a witch hunt" argument is that it assumes that everyone can risk criminalizing themselves to compete in baseball. I don't like that people would have to do that. 

The amount of violence that wives and girlfriends have received over the years from professional athletes is crazy, but these guys seem to get back on the field and everyone loves them like nothing ever happened.
I wished MLB and all other sports ran a tighter ship,  and owners had more control.

I certainly wouldn't call it stealing from the teams he played for. Trust me, they aren't innocent in all of this. You don't think ARod sold tickets. They made planty off of every home run, probably knew (or at least strongly suspected the use) and did nothing.

One problem in the discussion is that the term PED covers a lot of things. PED's as a class do one thing. They allow the body to recover quickly. When you work out, the process involves tearing down muscle tissue which heals and causes scar tissue. This process provides bulk and strength. However, you can't continually work one body part every day. It needs time to heal. Steroids, for example, speed the process up allowing strength that couldn't be acheived otherwise. The problem with steroids isn't the competitive advantage it gives. The problem is that it has DANGEROUS side effects. That means if someone in a field of sports is allowed to use them, then the only way to be on an equal playing field is to take them yourself. In other words, to compete equally, an athlete is forced to put his heath at risk.  Personally, while I agree whole heartedly with a ban on steroids, I don't have as much of a problem with HGH and blood doping. Both provide a competitive advantage, but with no real health risk. In fact, HGH carries great health benefits.

I think as baseball people, though, we look at it differently. baseball is a sport that loves to compare players. We love our statistics. One of the great things about baseball is that we can compare players of our era with those of an earlier era by a statistical analysis. It makes for great discussions. PED's skew those stats. It makes it impossible for us to compare athletes from the PED era with those from earlier times and we don't like that.

Here is the problem with this argument (and I've thought of it as well). Steroids are a health danger, not because they are taken wrongly, they just inherently are. Now if the guy down the street wants to bulk up because he thinks it looks good and wants to take the risk, I say go for it. However, in baseball, allowing that now means the next guy, if he wants to compete on an equal playing field is now almost forced to put his on health at risk. That's not a good working environment. I believe that at some point MLB will face a suit from one of the clean players from that era.

PG Staff,

 

Not trying to "win" an argument with you.  And I understand what you are saying.  I am all for the game being cleaned up with severe penalties to players/teams.

 

Cheating is morally wrong.  PED's are cheating under the current rules.  Making a moral equivalence to spitballs, corked bats, NFL, not as bad as serial killers, etc. doesn't change that.  Sports are games with an implied level playing field of fairness, with the score starting 0-0.  Rim is 10 ft for everyone, pitching distance is always 60'6".  Maybe that's why people get so worked up. 

 

Would I have done it?  Maybe.  The scenario was never there for me.  I want my son a level playing field.  I want the score 0-0.

 

edit....want the score 0-0 to start the game (otherwise it would be soccer)...

Here's my take.  From the beginning of time, people try to get an edge to win.  Whether that be coming up with new training techniques or new nutritional regimines or finding herbs that enhance performance or "greenies" or whatever.  Fact of the matter is that people will do what it takes to win.  The only difference between now and the days of old is the technology available to them.  What guys did in the 80's and 90's was not against MLB rules, and yet it seems they are being judged as guilty and will never get HOF induction.  Since the CBA and drug policy came into effect, that's a different story.  These guys tried to bend and break the rules knowing it was against MLB policy.  Some of the 80's and 90's guys were using things that were available over the counter at a GNC or drug store.  I don't think they should be persecuted the way the currently are.  They did nothing to break any of the MLB rules.

 

There is a drug policy in place now, don't break the rules.  ARod is an idiot to think he can do what he did and still try to get a way with it.  McGuire, Sosa, Bonds did nothing against MLB rules and should not have the stigma attached to them.  JMHO.

roothog66, what I take issue is your declaration that steroids are inherently dangerous. Nothing could be more further from the truth. Steroids are given every day to people to help cure them. You puncture a lung steroid. Emphysema, steroid. Treatment for HIV and AIDS steroidal. These are not some drug such as cocaine or heroin. These have and do play a very important part of medical science. See, it was the AMA themselves who shot themselves in the foot many years ago when they said 'don't do steroids they will kill you' . And then came up with the ridiculous statement that there was no empirical evidence that they even worked. This after years of medical uses of anabolic steroids! Little Johnny knows they worked because he saw his friends brother grow huge with them. Truth must be told if the youth of ours are to be enlightened. Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. If we lie or throw untruth's out there then the youth , like before will not listen. They are not illegal in the sense of a drug of abuse. They are controlled just as any other medical drug is.

Go44Dad, just asking this to a devils advocate, how far to level the field? What I mean is, don't check to see if the pitchers tipping? Don't slyly give location to batter when on second? Just another comment. The coparision to spitballs, bet buckle used to scuff balls, nail files, grease, or any other foreign substance on a pitched ball all are cheating. Listen, you cant be a little bit pregnant. To keep some out of the hall because of some moralistic reasoning is just stupid! This is not condoning what has occurred. If we are to be fair morally, then Ty Cobb should get tossed out immediately, and I mean right now, no questions asked. 2 thrown games with Smokey Joe Woods, jumping into the stands to beat the crap out of a cripple for heckling him,

Lord help A Rod or some other player if he was suspected of throwing 1 game not 2. I will stop here because the Hall is full of guys with these kinds of skeletons in their closets. If they chose to they could cut hall membership by half by applying the same standard to all. 

Evil is a strong word for a baseball player looking for the same edge he sees many others getting. I don't think calling people like Franco Cervelli evil passes the sniff test. Lots of these guys are hanging on to the bottom rung.

 

What is so shocking is still how ineffective the MLB testing system is. None of these guys flunked tests. They simply got ratted out.

This is a fair enough argument. Like my argument aginst the term PED, steroids is a large class of drugs and, indeed, properly administered, many are not dangerous at all. However, anabolic steroids (which mimic testosterone), which is useful in small doses over short periods of time for treatment of male harmone problems, has been proven to have risky side effects when the use is prolonged or the dosage is high.  The effects needed for enhanced performance in sports require larger than therapeutic doses and necessitate long term use (otherwise, what is the purpose). I took steroids while working out in the early/mid nineties before these side effects were widely known. They do, indeed help as long as you are willing to put in the time at the gym.

Everybody is trying to get an edges somewhere, somehow. Everybody is trying to get over, so I am assuming that your argument is philosophical and not one of practicality.

 

I assume you understand that life is not fair and never will be. Otherwise, all the girls would look like Scarlett Johansen and all the baseball players would hit like Bryce Harper.

Dad04 my head hurts from thinking of all this stuff. Just want to go watch a ballgame!

We are in some sort of agreement Roothog. My concern is lets just tell them the truth straight up. When I read that in the medical journal I couldn't believe it years back. Now some will take the shot even after knowing all the facts. That's why I think nullifying contracts, 2 to 3 years making the minimum will take a lot of the impetus out of MLB players using. Seems like they are all getting paid after they get caught. MiLB and lower is where the real fight is.

The problem is that the MLBPA would have to be on board and it is hard to get their full support if you start suspending players and dumping contracted salaries when you've already given MLB the right to test and they start taking action on players who haven't even failed those tests.

Absolutely philosophical.  But you bring up an interesting point....Wife look like Scarlett OR son hit like Bryce.  Tough one!

I'll take "son hits like Bryce."

Which is much better than Son hits like Scarlett Johansena dn wife looks like Bryce Harper. <shudder>

PED use of this kind was, at all times, both illegal and against MLB rules. 

 

(Some have said the MLB rules did not prohibit them, but this argument is fallacious.  The rules did not provide a specific list, but they did make it clear that any illegal drug use was prohibited, and these drugs have always been illegal unless you had a prescription.)

 

Anyone who knowingly breaks the rules has to be ready to suffer the consequences.

 

They have A-Rod dead to rights.  The fact that he is pulling this drama queen act in order to avoid having to testify under oath says it all.  He can talk all he likes until they put him under oath.  Then he has to shut up, or else he risks being prosecuted for perjury.  His federal suit is a publicity stunt, destined to be thrown out before he would ever have to testify -- or else he would never have filed it.  (I wonder if a creative judge might call his bluff and let the case move forward to the point where MLB's lawyers could take his deposition?)

 

The only problems I have with this is with making just the elite players the sacrificial lambs.  It's beginning to look like Canseco was telling the truth all along:  Users outnumbered non-users there for a while.  Why some people get crucified while others get off scot-free amazes me. 

 

And the Bud Seligs of the world, who always knew it was happening and always looked the other way so that they could get the ticket money and the TV money, now get to primp and preen and get all holier than thou.  Perhaps we could bring back Claude Rains to play Selig in the movie?  ("I am shocked!  Shocked! To learn that there were PED's being used!")

 

Why don't we make all the team owners cough up all the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS they made in the years when the HR binge brought back fans who had left following the 1994 strike.  To me, Selig and his ilk were the root of the problem.  A-Rod is a guy who got rich playing along with their program, but he didn't make as much as Selig and the other owners did.   Now Selig wants to sacrifice all these other guys so he can act all high and mighty -- but HE gets to keep all HIS money.  Barf.

midlo I think most people who make that argument, like myself to a certain extent, are refering to the use of pro-hormones, which until pretty recently were legal and available over, under and straight from the counter. This is what set off the firestorm for Maguire, that bottle of Andro which was perfectly legal at the time. If we are talking about the various anabolic steroids available then your point is correct. And I agree whole heartedly on your point about Owners and Selig.

The post-media blitz from Arod, the MLB Player's Union and MLB is just now coming out.   It is going to be very interesting & telling to see how the Player's Union handles these next steps.  The Player's Union is the "monkey in the middle" and under new leadership.  The Players Union is pissed at MLB for commenting and providing interviews on 60 Minutes and pissed at Arod for suing them after years of defending him.  

 

How and when the MLB Players Union align themselves will tell us everything we need to know going forward.  This is an opportunity for the Union and MLB to start working together for the benefit of the game.  Ten years from now, we may be thinking the Arod drama was the best thing to happen to baseball.  JMO.  

The Yankees better strike while the iron's hot... There will be no better time to get out from under that anchor of a contract that right now by "breach of contact"!! With A-Rod suing the union, the union might actually side this time with the team... Tony Clark's a former Yankee too... Might be a perfect storm here...

 

Hey, a kid can dream... LOL!

Lets stop the bs. He cheated he got caught. another view. Some young rookie is pitching and trying to convince the management he belongs on a big league roster. He is clean he does not use. He faces Rodriquez who hits a three run homer off him to win the game. Next day he is sent down. Who loses in that one. 

I don't know how A-Rod's contract reads.  There are reports the Yankees will save $22 of his $25 million salary this year.  I don't understand why, if a suspension gets them off the hook, they would still have to pay him $ 3 million.  But that's the report.

 

I do think the Yankees would have a tough time getting totally out of the contract due to the PED's, because A-Rod could probably defend that claim by pointing out that the Yankees knew full well he was using all along. 

 

I mean, you don't think the Yankees didn't know, do you? 

 

If anything, I would think the Yankees were COUNTING ON his use of PED's to assure that he would remain a viable player into his 40's.  Between A-Rod's aging and his health problems (which BTW could likely have been caused by the PED's), and without PED's to aid him, it appears the Yankees made a bad bet.  They've done that before, of course, but this one has been and will continue to be highly expensive.

Sounds like a future Arod vs Yankees lawsuit in the making!  Tacopina (Arods lawyer) is going to make a killing with all of these proceedings.  If he isn't a rich man, he is about to be.

You know what's interesting - comparing what MLB does with steroids versus other sports.  In my opinion it looks like the Olympics are the only other "sport" who is more punitive than MLB.  I found this chart on ESPN and take a look at how other sports respond to testing and punishment.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2474104

 

Baseball has all this attention, Congressional hearings and breaking news situations when some no name gets busted.  But the NFL it's just "ho hum" sit out your four games and let's move on with life.  Regardless of your stance or belief as to what's going on with MLB and steroids - is it possible that MLB being late to the party of doing something about steroids is what's causing all this attention to stick around?  If MLB would just adopt a similar punishment as NFL and NBA would it be that big of a deal whenever someone got caught?

Knowing it and proving it in court are two different things.  Highly doubful there is an email or text trail like there is with ARod.

Coach, looking at the chart and taking the big 3.  Baseball, NFL and NBA.  NBA is the easiest, NFL and MLB start similar and diverge from there.  Here's how it breaks down as a percentage of games played for the season.

 

1st offense - MLB - 31% of gamesplayed, NFL - 25%, NBA - 6%

2nd offense - MLB - 62%, NFL - 37.5%, NBA - 12%

3rd offense - MLB - Lifetime Ban, NFL - One Year, NBA - 30%

 

Looks like the NBA doesn't care at all, NFL is sort of concerned and it is a BIG deal in baseball.  Not sure about your late comer theory in baseball.  Maybe it has to do with all the holier than thou sports writers who won't vote anyone in the HOF who have used anything over the last 30 years - banned at the time or not.

Hadn't thought about the sports writers aspect.  That's a very good idea about why this horse won't die.