Abuse of a youth pitcher question

An 11U player isn't being paid to play. He's also more vulnerable to arm injury since he's a growing kid. Pro and college pitchers pitch through pain to a point. High school pitchers will do it in a big situation. But even then it's monitored closely. And it depends on what kind of pain. The only thing you need to tell your son is if his arm hurts tell the coach. If you think the coach is a moron removed your son from the team.

The kid was 0-3 for the weekend? Was it his fourth game? We rarely have kids pitch twice in a tournament and only if it is a three day affair. Maybe one inning the first day. 11 year olds should only pitch one game. Period. His parents need to find a new team after he has gone to the doctor.

It was the coach who was 0-3, not the pitcher.
However, if a kid says his arm hurts while pitching, he shouldn't be asked to pitch any more.

Except.... I do know of one kid who at every tournament complained of his arm hurting while he was pitching, but he'd go ahead and pitch whiffle balls between games to his teammates. He told me later that he just didn't like the pressure of pitching in games. Why use a kid at pitcher if he doesn't like doing it?

That makes more sense. But still, if a kid is hurting, or pretending that he is hurting, get him out. Either reason is good enough.

year's ago,i had a 15 yr old young man pitch for me. his arm used to hurt when he was losing. 15 pitches or 50, 1st inning or 5th. if he was losing it hurt. we finally had a talk about, tucking his skirt in. he was a very good pitcher.

he really didn't think anyone noticed his timing. kids..... go figure.

Okay- Let's clear some things up. First of all, you NEVER tell a kid to sabotage himself. That is horrible advice. Secondly, you set pitch count and recovery guidelines with his coach. Finally, your son needs to understand that as soon as he feels discomfort, he needs to tell the coach- period!

Finally, 11 year olds should not be playing four games in two days. Too many games- not enough practice. You won't agree with that but it's the truth.

I agree with ncball, 11 year old kids should be on a pitch count. 60-70 pitch range. If he complains of arm pain it should be addressed and the kid should be done for the weekend.

It was the coach/team that was in their 4th game. Not sure how many games the kid pitched in. However, had they won a game, they would of played a 5th game in two days.

I know its a lot, but 5 games is fairly typical for a weekend tournament.

I probably over analyzed the situation and your right, the kid was likely fine and back to having fun throwing rocks at the school bus the next morning. It just looked like he was suffering and it was obvious to everyone in the park. Had to be the coaches son. Cause I would think any non-coach father would of intervened. Sad thing is, I've seen this on more than one occasion in the last couple years. (Fathers forcing their kids to pitch while the kid was complaining of arm pain.)

I will reiterate- 4 games is too much for 11 year olds in two days. 5 is ridiculous. I don't care if it's common there or anywhere. It's still too much and no way kids can stay sharp mentally.

Do you know who benefits from all this tournament rage? Tournament directors and parents who crave immediate gratification from their kids.

Tournaments are the lazy way out- period. Practice more, scrimmage more, and set up games with other teams. That way those games can be controlled and emphasis can be on development.

Finally, the priorities in youth baseball need to change or we will see a mass exodus of kids when they get to be teenagers.

I've been the club ball coach with the player who one weekend, looks like Cy Young and throws 5 innings and 80 pitches and looks great. Next weekend, on the 15th pitch after giving up his 5th run, ducking line drives, suddenly has his arm hurt.

As the coach, I might 'think' I know what's going on, but when a kid says it hurts, you take him out. This is actually easy.

Worse, is when they shake their arm and look bad, you go out and ask and they say fine. Have the intestinal fortitude to say, "no you aren't, go sit down", call the umpire out and tell him your pitcher is hurt and the next kid needs adequate warm up pitches to get ready.

Never throw a kid more than twice in a weekend and then only throw a second time after a quick (<15 pitch) outting the day before. Never throw the same kid twice in the same day, unless he finishes one game and rolls directly into the next (i.e. he throws 6th & 7th and the next game starts within 30 minutes of the end of the first)

Make a plan, decide how the pool games will go, decide what you're going to do if way ahead, way behind, etc. Decide who will close, who is long, who is short with a lead or behind. Decide who will pitch Sunday. Who is #1, #2, etc. Know how good your team is and have realistic expectations. If you aren't going to play more than one on Sunday, pitch better pitchers on Saturday. If you know you're playing three on Sunday, don't pitch them on Saturday.

It's better to be wrong with good pitchers who haven't thrown than wrong with good pitchers hurt. Let's face it, parents are going to be PO'd no matter what you do, so do the best you can for the kids.

Sign up for two tournaments a month. I had a team that could play USSSA Majors with limited success and USSSA AAA with great success. I tried to sign up for one of each, each month. One long tournament, one short. I got my pitchers work every month and the better ones two outtings a month. The few times we played two long tournaments in the same month, led to injuries (not just pitchers).

I haven't been on this board that long, but I've never heard of a college recruiter saying, "You're a great high school player and I'd give you a scholarship today except when you were 11, you had this one outting where it looked like your arm hurt and you quit, so I'm giving it to the other kid..."

Just my opinions.

Very simple- If the arm hurts, the pitcher comes out.

If he was throwing 100 pitches at 11 this early in the season (or at all for that matter) the parents should fire the coach.

On dads' advice- Terrible lesson to teach your son. Not very fair to his teammates. Why not teach your your son to communicate with his coach."Coach my arm hurts and I can no longer pitch." If the arm hurts why would you tell your son to keep throwing at all. Balls or strikes doesn't matter, hurting is hurting.

yea. Was just curious what others thought about seeing a kid continue to pitch with a hurt arm. Seems to be some consensus that any coach worth his salt would of pulled him at the first sign of fatigue. Glad its not my kid's team or coach.

But, changing subjects a little, NCBall brings up a good point. Is 5 games in a weekend too many?

This is 11U majors travel ball. At least two of the teams were ranked by Travlbllselct (msp on purpose.)

These are 90 minute games. 4 to 5 games is common for a weekend if you get to the championship game.

But, its like that in all travel sports. S****r, Tennis, Basketball. All those at the travel level require 4 to 5 matches or games to get to the championship game. Swimming invitationals require two full days of events. They are spread out, but do require mental toughness to get through preliminaries and into finals. So, I don't think the game burden for a tournament would be the reason kids would be driven away from baseball. Doing it every weekend might be. I agree with the 2 tournaments per month guidelines. Heck, I think my 11U player has 6 different subjects a day in school. Is that burden too high? Ok, not a fair comparison.

My son is 15 played travel ball since 11 is a pitcher and 3rd base, has played for only one travel coach. No way he stays in with a sore arm! Are coach is and always has been very careful with all the kids, pitch count is a must. Keeping there arms strong thru training is a big reason that non of our pitchers (knock on wood) have had arm injuries.They follow the "Tom House Method" and the arm strenghting excercises have really worked for our team. Most tournaments we have played stretch out longer to avoid to many games in a day (of coarse rain can change everthing) but then games are shortend (hate it but what can u do). Anyway any pain ice that arm.

You are relaying a situation which you saw, but not familiar with what the young pitcher actually did that weekend, at 11 most kids are not pitchers only, he may have played in almost every game as a position player.
But it was a good scenerio in which to point out to your son, that it is important to always let someone know when you feel discomfort on the mound and always important to stop when in pain.
There's a misconception that pro players are told to pitch through pain, that is not true. As soon as a pitcher feels something unusual (notice the word unusual) the manager and trainer are called out immediately to discuss the situation with the pitcher making it his call if allowed (sometimes they are taken out regardless of the situation). Of course these players are getting paid and MANY expect that they should toughen it up, but this is NOT what is expressed to them when in PAIN. Also sometimes the adrenaline masks a rehabbing pitchers issue. There's a diference between being tough as a professional player than an 11 year old, you cannot even compare the situation.

Teach your young pitchers to speak up, their bodies are still growing and much damage can ocur.
I agree with ncball, at 11 4-5 games is too much for 11 year olds so early in the season in a weekend, regardless of what the norm is, that is not normal, IMO. Someone can get overused somewhere in those 4-5 games. That's ok if that is all one does a few times a month, but now you see 11-12 year olds play weekday games, then weekend tournies, when does it become too much?

Comparing 6 different subjects in a day doesn't come close to 6 different bb games in a week. Better to overwork your mind than your body at 11.

I understand now why son's surgeon said they keep coming in younger and younger and why orthopeadic surgeons make lots of money these days.

Where was this kids parents?If I see my son exibiting signs of pain and see him pitching what obviously was too many pitches,I would pull him.


Might hurt his and my standing with the coach but the kids well being and health come before coaches pride.


My son was slated to be the starter for a tournament game in our 9-10 year old league but due to him practicing center field the day before with the all star team,he tweaked his arm throwing in to the plate.I was helping the rec team and informed the coaches his arm was hurting and without hesitation,he was scratched as the starter and did not pitch that day.It cost us a chance for a win but he was able to pitch later in the week and helped us finish 3rd in the tourney.

I really liked our coach,he was a former minor leaguer and high school varsity coach and would not allow kids to reach a pitch count of 40 in a game.

If a kid says he hurts and the coach makes him pitch is this not child abuse?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimnev:
If a kid says he hurts and the coach makes him pitch is this not child abuse?

Every time a kid says something hurts should the coach be charged with child abuse? If anyone is wrong it's the parents for not educating themselves on physical pitching limitations on preteens and selecting this team for their son. How about some personal accountability? But chances are the parents are reveling in limelight of being the parents of a 11U pitching stud.

Let me clarify my above statement. If the scenerio is the one that the player is acting like the one described in the initial post.

"opposing team's pitcher experience obvious arm discomfort while on the mound."

Then I have to think there is abuse. It's possible that the parents weren't there or, that they know nothing about the game. Yes if the parents are "reveling in limelight of being the parents of a 11U pitching stud," they are at fault AND if the coach is trying to add to his 11U trophey case he is at fault. Regardless there is an adult at fault.

It is not about winning at pre-high school levels its about learning the game and playing the game correctly. Winning is a by-product.

How do you check an arm that the pitcher says hurts while you are in a game?

Any coach worth anything has the best interests of the players as a first priority. So when a kid says he hurts what do you do to evaluate without trying to play doctor?

First determine where the pain is. If he points to the elbow, I press on the inside of the elbow bone (medial epicondyle) and if he drops to his knees in pain he is done pitching until I get a sports orthopedisst's written release along with one from the parents.

If the pain is in the biceps tendon at the elbow crease he is done until the pain is gone.

The biceps and triceps muscle are normally OK after a couple of days rest. Same for the forearm muscles.

The front point of the shoulder means no pitching or throwing until there is no more pain. Muscle pain below the wing bone (scapula) should be OK with rest.

Anbody else think of more that are common?