Abuse of a youth pitcher question

An 11U player isn't being paid to play. He's also more vulnerable to arm injury since he's a growing kid. Pro and college pitchers pitch through pain to a point. High school pitchers will do it in a big situation. But even then it's monitored closely. And it depends on what kind of pain. The only thing you need to tell your son is if his arm hurts tell the coach. If you think the coach is a moron removed your son from the team.

The kid was 0-3 for the weekend? Was it his fourth game? We rarely have kids pitch twice in a tournament and only if it is a three day affair. Maybe one inning the first day. 11 year olds should only pitch one game. Period. His parents need to find a new team after he has gone to the doctor.

It was the coach who was 0-3, not the pitcher.
However, if a kid says his arm hurts while pitching, he shouldn't be asked to pitch any more.

Except.... I do know of one kid who at every tournament complained of his arm hurting while he was pitching, but he'd go ahead and pitch whiffle balls between games to his teammates. He told me later that he just didn't like the pressure of pitching in games. Why use a kid at pitcher if he doesn't like doing it?

That makes more sense. But still, if a kid is hurting, or pretending that he is hurting, get him out. Either reason is good enough.

year's ago,i had a 15 yr old young man pitch for me. his arm used to hurt when he was losing. 15 pitches or 50, 1st inning or 5th. if he was losing it hurt. we finally had a talk about, tucking his skirt in. he was a very good pitcher.

he really didn't think anyone noticed his timing. kids..... go figure.

Okay- Let's clear some things up. First of all, you NEVER tell a kid to sabotage himself. That is horrible advice. Secondly, you set pitch count and recovery guidelines with his coach. Finally, your son needs to understand that as soon as he feels discomfort, he needs to tell the coach- period!

Finally, 11 year olds should not be playing four games in two days. Too many games- not enough practice. You won't agree with that but it's the truth.

I agree with ncball, 11 year old kids should be on a pitch count. 60-70 pitch range. If he complains of arm pain it should be addressed and the kid should be done for the weekend.

It was the coach/team that was in their 4th game. Not sure how many games the kid pitched in. However, had they won a game, they would of played a 5th game in two days.

I know its a lot, but 5 games is fairly typical for a weekend tournament.

I probably over analyzed the situation and your right, the kid was likely fine and back to having fun throwing rocks at the school bus the next morning. It just looked like he was suffering and it was obvious to everyone in the park. Had to be the coaches son. Cause I would think any non-coach father would of intervened. Sad thing is, I've seen this on more than one occasion in the last couple years. (Fathers forcing their kids to pitch while the kid was complaining of arm pain.)

I will reiterate- 4 games is too much for 11 year olds in two days. 5 is ridiculous. I don't care if it's common there or anywhere. It's still too much and no way kids can stay sharp mentally.

Do you know who benefits from all this tournament rage? Tournament directors and parents who crave immediate gratification from their kids.

Tournaments are the lazy way out- period. Practice more, scrimmage more, and set up games with other teams. That way those games can be controlled and emphasis can be on development.

Finally, the priorities in youth baseball need to change or we will see a mass exodus of kids when they get to be teenagers.

I've been the club ball coach with the player who one weekend, looks like Cy Young and throws 5 innings and 80 pitches and looks great. Next weekend, on the 15th pitch after giving up his 5th run, ducking line drives, suddenly has his arm hurt.

As the coach, I might 'think' I know what's going on, but when a kid says it hurts, you take him out. This is actually easy.

Worse, is when they shake their arm and look bad, you go out and ask and they say fine. Have the intestinal fortitude to say, "no you aren't, go sit down", call the umpire out and tell him your pitcher is hurt and the next kid needs adequate warm up pitches to get ready.

Never throw a kid more than twice in a weekend and then only throw a second time after a quick (<15 pitch) outting the day before. Never throw the same kid twice in the same day, unless he finishes one game and rolls directly into the next (i.e. he throws 6th & 7th and the next game starts within 30 minutes of the end of the first)

Make a plan, decide how the pool games will go, decide what you're going to do if way ahead, way behind, etc. Decide who will close, who is long, who is short with a lead or behind. Decide who will pitch Sunday. Who is #1, #2, etc. Know how good your team is and have realistic expectations. If you aren't going to play more than one on Sunday, pitch better pitchers on Saturday. If you know you're playing three on Sunday, don't pitch them on Saturday.

It's better to be wrong with good pitchers who haven't thrown than wrong with good pitchers hurt. Let's face it, parents are going to be PO'd no matter what you do, so do the best you can for the kids.

Sign up for two tournaments a month. I had a team that could play USSSA Majors with limited success and USSSA AAA with great success. I tried to sign up for one of each, each month. One long tournament, one short. I got my pitchers work every month and the better ones two outtings a month. The few times we played two long tournaments in the same month, led to injuries (not just pitchers).

I haven't been on this board that long, but I've never heard of a college recruiter saying, "You're a great high school player and I'd give you a scholarship today except when you were 11, you had this one outting where it looked like your arm hurt and you quit, so I'm giving it to the other kid..."

Just my opinions.

Very simple- If the arm hurts, the pitcher comes out.

If he was throwing 100 pitches at 11 this early in the season (or at all for that matter) the parents should fire the coach.

On dads' advice- Terrible lesson to teach your son. Not very fair to his teammates. Why not teach your your son to communicate with his coach."Coach my arm hurts and I can no longer pitch." If the arm hurts why would you tell your son to keep throwing at all. Balls or strikes doesn't matter, hurting is hurting.

yea. Was just curious what others thought about seeing a kid continue to pitch with a hurt arm. Seems to be some consensus that any coach worth his salt would of pulled him at the first sign of fatigue. Glad its not my kid's team or coach.

But, changing subjects a little, NCBall brings up a good point. Is 5 games in a weekend too many?

This is 11U majors travel ball. At least two of the teams were ranked by Travlbllselct (msp on purpose.)

These are 90 minute games. 4 to 5 games is common for a weekend if you get to the championship game.

But, its like that in all travel sports. S****r, Tennis, Basketball. All those at the travel level require 4 to 5 matches or games to get to the championship game. Swimming invitationals require two full days of events. They are spread out, but do require mental toughness to get through preliminaries and into finals. So, I don't think the game burden for a tournament would be the reason kids would be driven away from baseball. Doing it every weekend might be. I agree with the 2 tournaments per month guidelines. Heck, I think my 11U player has 6 different subjects a day in school. Is that burden too high? Ok, not a fair comparison.

My son is 15 played travel ball since 11 is a pitcher and 3rd base, has played for only one travel coach. No way he stays in with a sore arm! Are coach is and always has been very careful with all the kids, pitch count is a must. Keeping there arms strong thru training is a big reason that non of our pitchers (knock on wood) have had arm injuries.They follow the "Tom House Method" and the arm strenghting excercises have really worked for our team. Most tournaments we have played stretch out longer to avoid to many games in a day (of coarse rain can change everthing) but then games are shortend (hate it but what can u do). Anyway any pain ice that arm.

You are relaying a situation which you saw, but not familiar with what the young pitcher actually did that weekend, at 11 most kids are not pitchers only, he may have played in almost every game as a position player.
But it was a good scenerio in which to point out to your son, that it is important to always let someone know when you feel discomfort on the mound and always important to stop when in pain.
There's a misconception that pro players are told to pitch through pain, that is not true. As soon as a pitcher feels something unusual (notice the word unusual) the manager and trainer are called out immediately to discuss the situation with the pitcher making it his call if allowed (sometimes they are taken out regardless of the situation). Of course these players are getting paid and MANY expect that they should toughen it up, but this is NOT what is expressed to them when in PAIN. Also sometimes the adrenaline masks a rehabbing pitchers issue. There's a diference between being tough as a professional player than an 11 year old, you cannot even compare the situation.

Teach your young pitchers to speak up, their bodies are still growing and much damage can ocur.
I agree with ncball, at 11 4-5 games is too much for 11 year olds so early in the season in a weekend, regardless of what the norm is, that is not normal, IMO. Someone can get overused somewhere in those 4-5 games. That's ok if that is all one does a few times a month, but now you see 11-12 year olds play weekday games, then weekend tournies, when does it become too much?

Comparing 6 different subjects in a day doesn't come close to 6 different bb games in a week. Better to overwork your mind than your body at 11.

I understand now why son's surgeon said they keep coming in younger and younger and why orthopeadic surgeons make lots of money these days.

Where was this kids parents?If I see my son exibiting signs of pain and see him pitching what obviously was too many pitches,I would pull him.


Might hurt his and my standing with the coach but the kids well being and health come before coaches pride.


My son was slated to be the starter for a tournament game in our 9-10 year old league but due to him practicing center field the day before with the all star team,he tweaked his arm throwing in to the plate.I was helping the rec team and informed the coaches his arm was hurting and without hesitation,he was scratched as the starter and did not pitch that day.It cost us a chance for a win but he was able to pitch later in the week and helped us finish 3rd in the tourney.

I really liked our coach,he was a former minor leaguer and high school varsity coach and would not allow kids to reach a pitch count of 40 in a game.

If a kid says he hurts and the coach makes him pitch is this not child abuse?

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Originally posted by Jimnev:
If a kid says he hurts and the coach makes him pitch is this not child abuse?

Every time a kid says something hurts should the coach be charged with child abuse? If anyone is wrong it's the parents for not educating themselves on physical pitching limitations on preteens and selecting this team for their son. How about some personal accountability? But chances are the parents are reveling in limelight of being the parents of a 11U pitching stud.

Let me clarify my above statement. If the scenerio is the one that the player is acting like the one described in the initial post.

"opposing team's pitcher experience obvious arm discomfort while on the mound."

Then I have to think there is abuse. It's possible that the parents weren't there or, that they know nothing about the game. Yes if the parents are "reveling in limelight of being the parents of a 11U pitching stud," they are at fault AND if the coach is trying to add to his 11U trophey case he is at fault. Regardless there is an adult at fault.

It is not about winning at pre-high school levels its about learning the game and playing the game correctly. Winning is a by-product.

How do you check an arm that the pitcher says hurts while you are in a game?

Any coach worth anything has the best interests of the players as a first priority. So when a kid says he hurts what do you do to evaluate without trying to play doctor?

First determine where the pain is. If he points to the elbow, I press on the inside of the elbow bone (medial epicondyle) and if he drops to his knees in pain he is done pitching until I get a sports orthopedisst's written release along with one from the parents.

If the pain is in the biceps tendon at the elbow crease he is done until the pain is gone.

The biceps and triceps muscle are normally OK after a couple of days rest. Same for the forearm muscles.

The front point of the shoulder means no pitching or throwing until there is no more pain. Muscle pain below the wing bone (scapula) should be OK with rest.

Anbody else think of more that are common?

Since I am new to the forum I will make this long and sweet... LOL

Here is a golden rule to live by when it relates to your youth pitcher as a parent.

If you are like most parents , you work with your child so you should know about how many pitches it takes to wear your childs arm out.

Once you establish that pitch count, you need to enforce it.

Lets say that figure is 80 pitches. As a parent you need to let your sons coach know that once he reaches 80 pitches he has to come out of the game pitching. You must keep the count as a parent, the coach will most likely forget or fudge the figures if the game is on the line.

Also once he reaches his pitch count you also have to let the coach know your son is not allowed to play catcher, 3rd or SS after reaching that pitch count.

I am new to the youth baseball experience. I coached high school and college baseball but have never had any experience with young kids prior to my son starting to play a year ago.

I can tell you though, this experience has been eye opening. Playing for some of the most competitive travel teams this year, I have seen some of these travel team coaches abuse a lot of pitchers arms. This is the primary reason I dont allow my son to pitch.

I have seen kids pitch for 5 innings then go behind the plate to catch the whole next game. I have seen 10 and 11 yr olds being taught and told to throw TRUE curve balls.

What a lot of parents who dont know any better and are relying on these so called coaches for advice fail to see. At a young age these kids still have growth plates that are growing. Overuse of their arms will stunt their growth plate growth and damage their arms FOREVER.

What good does it do to win a few pieces of medal or plastic and risk your childs health.

A quick story. I had a dad that I was talking with about his son throwing a curve ball. This kid was a great pitcher and I proceeded to explain to his dad that his coach was going to hurt his arm by having him throw all those curve balls.

This dad kindly told me that his son could go out and be hit by a bus tomorrow so there was no more danger in him throwing curve balls at age 11 than getting hit by a bus.

Moral of the story. Never place your childs health/future above winning a game, getting a medal or pleasing a youth baseball coach.

quote:

- As a parent you need to let your sons coach know that once he reaches 80 pitches he has to come out of the game pitching.

- Also once he reaches his pitch count you also have to let the coach know your son is not allowed to play catcher, 3rd or SS after reaching that pitch count.

There's one more important piece of information I need to learn. What percentage of the take do I charge as my son's agent? (<-- sarcasm). If you walked up to our high school coach and told him how many pitches your son can throw and where he can play, he'd never see the field again. If you approached my son's travel coach he'd remind you the rule is parents stay away from the dugout. Before you say you establish this with the coach before the season, he would establish your son isn't on the roster. Coaches don't want a season of the PITA parent. The correct approach is to have the player approach the coach about his usual pitching limits. Never tell a coach where you can and can't play.

What you need to do as a travel parent is find the right playing environment with knowledgeable coaches. In high school you take what you get. The only decision is to be part of it or not. When the kids are pre high school they are learning how to become high school and high school age travel players. Parents need to learn how to become high school player and high school age travel player parents. There is no age of ball where the parent should be telling the coach what to do. If you want to be in charge, get a head coaching job or start a team.

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Playing for some of the most competitive travel teams this year,

How can you be concerned for your son's health and all around development playing for multiple teams?

As a HS coach would you tolerate a parent dictating as you outline? I would hope not.

This may startle you but merely coaching HS and college does not qualify you to coach youth sports. There are huge differences between adults, late adolescents, and children's bodies.

If I were holding tryouts that your son was attending, and if you pontificated to me as you have here your son, but mostly you, would not be on the team.

Your place is that of a parent and no more. Not an agent. You are to support the team and watch for safety issues as it relates to your son.

By the way, a properly thrown curve ball is no more harmful than a fast ball. At any age. Just not effective on the small diamond.

Did you guys notice that OCB's kid is 11? He sure as heck better talk to his travel coach about limits. My son is 14. His travel coach knows what his limits are because we have discussed what they are. Parents have to get involved. We all have seen kids over pitched/played at the youth level. As parents, it is our duty to make sure they are not overused. You don't tell the coach to play your son more, you tell the coach to play him less. And then you make sure it happens. Leave the team if needed. The kids only want to please the coach and play. They have no idea about damage or overuse and some coaches think that as long as the kid says he is fine, then he is fine. But the good coaches want to talk with the parents. Communication is the key.

I have said this before, so ignore it if you want.

Coaches don't have to take kids to the Doctor.
Coaches don't have to take the kids to rehab.
Coaches don't have to explain why they need surgery.
Coaches don't have to wait in the hospital room for your kid to wake up.
Coaches don't have to tell them why they can never play the game again because their arm is shot.
Coaches don't have to hold them while they ice their arm because it hurts so bad.
Coaches don't have to look your kid in the eye when he is 15 and answer why he can't throw anymore.

Anyone who doesn't take care of their kids and have that discussion with the coach in youth ball is an idiot.

quote:

Coaches don't have to take kids to the Doctor.
Coaches don't have to take the kids to rehab.
Coaches don't have to explain why they need surgery.
Coaches don't have to wait in the hospital room for your kid to wake up.
Coaches don't have to tell them why they can never play the game again because their arm is shot.
Coaches don't have to hold them while they ice their arm because it hurts so bad.
Coaches don't have to look your kid in the eye when he is 15 and answer why he can't throw anymore.

Anyone who doesn't take care of their kids and have that discussion with the coach in youth ball is an idiot.

If the parent finds the right team for the player it's not an issue. I have never let a parent dictate how I can use their son. When the player was considered for the team I explained to the parent how their son will be used. Then they can make a choice to stay or go. Over the season I would discuss the condition of player's arms with parents. Obviously if told an arm wasn't right, I didn't use the kid. But they weren't going to dictate terms.

What makes you think a HS/college coach with no experience in youth ball is more qualified than a travel or league coach to determine safety issues for kids?

What kind of judgement is showwn by having the kid play for multiple teams?

It is is kid and he can do what he wants in the same manner that a coach has the freedom to avoid him as a PITAP.

Daque,
I cannot tell you the amount of times I have seen kids go from pitching 6 innings to catching 6 innings the next game. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen kids go from the mound to SS during the same game. Or from third, catch, outfield after throwing 80-100 pitches. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen kids pitch 3 or 4 times in a tournament. Abuse is rampant.

But I can tell you how many times it has happened to my son. Once. How many times was it tried? Many, many times. I have told his coach to DH only after pitching that day. Or the bench, I don't care which one. My sons health overides every other concern on the field. As every parent should.

Multiple teams are fine, as long as the rules are known ahead of time.

RJM,
As long as it is discussed with the parents and player then it is fine. Every player is different. Communication and education is the key to safety.

Thanks for the responses. First let me address RJM.

RJM I was not refering to a high school age player. I thought this was a pre high school thread. You are correct LOL try telling a high school coach how many pitches your son can throw LMAO.

My comments are based on youth pitchers. Ages 9-13 you as a parent need to guard your childs arm.

Now as for that travel ball coach who would not place your son on a roster if you told him how many pitches your SON is allowed to throw. I say run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that coach. If his coach is that way then this tells me he has no concern for your childs health and is only concerned about his reputation based on his winning percentage to be aquired at all cost.


Now Daque, here is my response to your questions/statement. My son just turned 10 yrs last week. He plays for a 10u team and an 11u team Usssa. My son does not pitch, I wont allow him yet.

You also are correct. Just because someone coaches high school or college baseball does not make them qualified to coach youth baseball. Dealing with youth players is different from high school and college age kids. However I would say 80% of HS and college coaches would be tremendous youth coaches.

What better type coach to learn from. These type coaches with the HS and college experience know what is being looked for at the next level and will most likely have more extensive knowledge than some dad who decides to coach a team.

Daque I would suggest you read up on the damages curve balls cause to young and old arms. I wont go in to a long statement about all the areas of the body it does damage.

Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16.

Daque, you ask why do we think a HS/college coach is more qualified than a youth ball coach to determine safety issues for the kids.

Most HS/college coaches have a lot more experience with baseball injuries than any youth coach. They have studied kinetics and other related areas of the human body and the effects they have on the body. Most Hs/college coaches have played baseball and been around the game more than most youth coaches.

Now as for my child playing on multiple teams. The age groups he plays in play tournaments opposing weekends. If his 10u team plays this weekend, they dont play next weekend, his 11u team plays.

Now I could spout off a lot of different opinions about playing every weekend but instead of doing that I will just say. My son wants to play, when we have weekends he isnt playing he gets bored ( He would rather play baseball than go to Disney LOL..his words ). My son has never complained of his arm hurting. My son doesnt pitch he plays infield.

On avg he makes about 20 or less throws a game. This is well below what experts suggest. This is part of my duty as a parent to safeguard his health.

If I missed anything I will respond back. Thanks again for responding.

Why do you think that most HS/college coaches have more experience with baseball injuries than youth coaches? I have had to get rid of ex-pro baseball players turned youth coaches because they were poor teachers for youth.

I have no problem with kids playing evey weekend except for the crazy excessive tournaments.

The problem with youth pitchers throwing breaking balls is that they call them all, "curves." Every time I get into a disccussion about curves I have to first define what they are talking about. Curve or slurve. I suggest you look at the ASMI site for more on topic.

Coming off of the mound to any position other than catcher is not considered dangerous by anyone that I know who has researched it. There is a big difference between throwing a ball and pitching a ball.

If a parent is having the type of problems you mentioned then he did not research the coaching staff in advance. Or he figured he could bowl over a woosy coach with his credentials.

I have seen way too many HS coaches who believe that HS ball is the big time. They tend to look down on youth coaches in general. When I was coaching I kept them off of the field and out of the dugout. The ones with their heads screwed on straight were never a problem.

Dictating provisions of play to any coach at any level is poor form and, if the coach has any balls, he will tell you to take your kid and leave the uniform on the gate on the way out. I don't understand how you figure there is a difference between a HS coach and any other in that regard.

quote:

Now as for that travel ball coach who would not place your son on a roster if you told him how many pitches your SON is allowed to throw. I say run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that coach. If his coach is that way then this tells me he has no concern for your childs health and is only concerned about his reputation based on his winning percentage to be aquired at all cost.

Coaches, if any parent tries to dictate terms and conditions on how their son will be used run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that parent. It will only get worse every week. If the parent is that way he is only concerned about his kid and doesn't respect the team or the coaching staff.

Ya, don't be an involved parent and tell the coaches how to pitch your son. It didn't work out to good for Tim Lincecum.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
Why do you think that most HS/college coaches have more experience with baseball injuries than youth coaches? I have had to get rid of ex-pro baseball players turned youth coaches because they were poor teachers for youth.

You are correct in the aspect that some ex major league players cant coach. They dopnt know how to relay the knowledge they have not only to youth players but also Hs/college level players.

However a good HS/college coach can relay his or her knowledge to any age group. Its just a matter of being able to use terms that this particular age group can relate too.

As an example. I teach rotational hitting. When I am relaying to a youth player say someone 9,10,11 or 12 yrs old. I use terms like caveman, spiderman and so on because kids can relate mentally to what I am saying and understand the meaning of the key phrase to perform a certain aspect of the hitting mechanics.

However I wouldnt use those terms with a 15 or 16 yr old because they have a greater maturity level and understanding of those mechanics.

This is the difference between a coach with knowledge and a ex MLB or college player with knowledge. Its how they can relay the knowledge they have.

quote:

The problem with youth pitchers throwing breaking balls is that they call them all, "curves." Every time I get into a disccussion about curves I have to first define what they are talking about. Curve or slurve. I suggest you look at the ASMI site for more on topic.


Coming off of the mound to any position other than catcher is not considered dangerous by anyone that I know who has researched it. There is a big difference between throwing a ball and pitching a ball.

I must respectfully disagree with you. Even a slurve does damage to the growth plates/tendons/ligaments of a young pitcher.

Most of the stress from throwing the curve ball is on the ligaments of the elbow, the biceps and forearm muscles. The ligament that is usually damaged mostly in youth and adult pitchers is the unlar collateral. I would suggest you read the study done by Lyman.

Now to the growth plates. Its very simple. Overuse of an arm prior to skeletal maturity will result in growth plate seperation and will cause permament elbow/arm problems.

quote:

If a parent is having the type of problems you mentioned then he did not research the coaching staff in advance. Or he figured he could bowl over a woosy coach with his credentials.

Now most parents dont research coaching staffs. All the parents see is a winning or losing record and base their judgements off of that. They ASSUME that if the team has a winning record, the coaches must be good.

I will direct you back to your first statement about those MLB coaches you got rid of. Now the avg parent see's wow this coach played in the Major Leagues, he must know how to coach or if he play MLB then he has to have a lot of knowledge to pass on to my child. You can figure out the rest of my conclusion.

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I have seen way too many HS coaches who believe that HS ball is the big time. They tend to look down on youth coaches in general. When I was coaching I kept them off of the field and out of the dugout. The ones with their heads screwed on straight were never a problem.

Well this is one coach that doesnt. I have the highest regards for ANYONE who volunteers to teach kids anything. If this individual is coaching my son, as a parent and ex coach its my responsibility to insure that this coach is not over stepping the boundaries I have set for MY CHILDS DEVELOPMENT.

Now as I mentioned I am new to youth baseball but let me ask you a question as it relates to your comment about keeping those guys off the field or leaving the uniform at the gate.

Lets say you have a stud player. The type of player every team in your area would die for.The kind of player that is a game changer. You mean to tell me that if that players dad said you need to do this with my son or that with my son, you would tell him to get lost?

See if you say yes I know you are lying if you have a VERY COMPETITIVE TEAM. Even though I have been around youth baseball for a short period of time. I know that coaches tend to walk on egg shells with stud players parents.

If you say yes I am also going to go out on a line and guess you dont have a top elite team.

I can say this with 100% confidence. We have some of the best teams/players in the country in travel ball here in Florida and I have seen my fair share of conflicts between coaches and stud players parents. I have yet to see any coach tell a parent of a stud player to hit the road.

One of the best pitchers here in this area, his dad will only allow his son to throw no more than 80 pitches for the whole tournament. This kid is 10yrs old throws in the mid to upper 60s and currently plays 10u and 11u Usssa majors and not one coach has told his dad to **** off.

This is only a guess but I would say you have lost some good players as a coach because of your attitude, its my way or the highway in youth baseball. I will also take a stab and say you have had serveral knowledgable parents question some of your decisions and this has caused you to become very defensive.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Now as for that travel ball coach who would not place your son on a roster if you told him how many pitches your SON is allowed to throw. I say run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that coach. If his coach is that way then this tells me he has no concern for your childs health and is only concerned about his reputation based on his winning percentage to be aquired at all cost.

Coaches, if any parent tries to dictate terms and conditions on how their son will be used run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that parent. It will only get worse every week. If the parent is that way he is only concerned about his kid and doesn't respect the team or the coaching staff.

So RJM lets put this to the test. If I am your 12 yr old sons coach and I make him throw during a tournament 2 games and a 140 pitches per game with his arm hurting are you going to try and tell me I cant throw him that much?

You dont even have to respond because I already know the answer but take your answer and apply it to your comments and MAYBE you will see how stupid your application to my comment was.

My response was as much of a generalization as yours was. Before I explain how I operated as a coach let's be perfectly clear your son would play for the team on my terms and you would not interfere. You would not play agent. Players play, coaches coach and parents support the team. Part of my responsibility as a coach was to teach parents how to become parents of athletes. Now that we have the rules clear I'll explain how your son would come to be on my team starting at 13U. At 11U and 12U the travel team only played in a Sunday doubleheader league with our LL's prospective all-stars. LL didn't play on Sunday.

At some point in the summer there would be a casual comment from one of the coaches to you asking if your son would be interested in playing for our team the following year. If so, call at the end of the summer. We never stoled players from teams. We didn't chase players. We made one comment. The rest was up to the parent. The other way was you would have seen how the team was run, how fair things were done, how pitchers were not overused, and except for the one whiny dad who didn't understand why his son wasn't an infielder, parents would have said good things about the team.

When we talked I would have explained how positions are earned, how much playing time every player would get at a minimum, how pitchers would be handled, the backgrounds of the coaching staff, what instruction would be the focus and the player and parental behavior expectations. I would answer your questions and you would make a decision. At that point if you paid attention you wouldn't have felt the need to present your condesending quiz worthy of a ignorant rec ball coach.

If you started telling me how your son would be used, or presented me with your little quiz, I'd tell you I'll get back to you in the future. you would probably be able to read the declining interest in my body language. One year I turned away two studs due to their parents. I figured let the parents try to run another coach's team.

The way we operated worked. None of the pitchers ever got hurt. We turned away players every year. Most parents like a coach who doesn't play his son at short because he has a better one. We weren't trying to win state championships. We were trying to develop high school players. We still finished as one of the top ranked teams every year. Eleven of fourteen of the 13U players are starting soph year of high school. One quit baseball to focus on another sport. Two are in powerhouse programs where they will start as juniors.

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So RJM lets put this to the test. If I am your 12 yr old sons coach and I make him throw during a tournament 2 games and a 140 pitches per game with his arm hurting are you going to try and tell me I cant throw him that much?

You dont even have to respond because I already know the answer but take your answer and apply it to your comments and MAYBE you will see how stupid your application to my comment was.

If I had a 12 year old and you did something like that and he hurt his arm, you'd likely leave the ballpark on a stretcher and I'd be leaving in handcuffs.

I don't like "pitch counts" but that is pure craziness and it wouldn't go over well. That's nearly 300 pitches in (I would assume) a short time and it doesn't even count how many pitches he threw to warm up before the game or between innings. Even to me, that is excessive.

Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.

bulldog

I am with you !!!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
My response was as much of a generalization as yours was. Before I explain how I operated as a coach let's be perfectly clear your son would play for the team on my terms and you would not interfere. You would not play agent. Players play, coaches coach and parents support the team. Part of my responsibility as a coach was to teach parents how to become parents of athletes.

Now that we have the rules clear I'll explain how your son would come to be on my team.

At some point in the summer there would be a casual comment from one of the coaches to you if your son is interested in playing for our team, call at the end of the summer. We never stoled players from teams. We didn't chase players. We made one comment. The rest is up to the parent. The other way was you would see how well run the team is, how fair things are done, how pitchers are not overused, and excpet for the one whiny dad who didn't understane why his son wasn't an infielder, parents would say good things about the team.

When we talked I would have explained how positions are earned, how much playing time every player will get at a minimum, how pitchers will be handled, the backgrounds of the coaching staff and what instruction will be the focus. I would answer your questions and you would make a decision.

If you started telling me how your son would be used, I'd tell you I'll get back to you in the future. You would probably be able to read the declining interest in my body language.

That sounds really nice. I wish it was that way with every coach but you and I both know that isnt the case.

However if I had a child that pitches with the knowledge I have. I would have no problem prior to joining any team telling the coaches my son has certain pitching limits that can not be exceeded.

If that coach agreed to my terms and we all had an understanding then we would join that team. If that coach took the stance that he could pitch MY CHILD as much as he wanted then I would personally say thank you but no thank you.

We as knowledable parents with above avg ballplayers or even below avg ball players have a choice when it comes to what we may deem dangerous to our kids health.

Youth baseball coaches need to understand this. They can do as they wish with their own kids but when dealing with someone elses child its not their decision. They need to respect a parents wishes for what the parent deems good for their child.

I only refer to this because of coaches over abusing youth pitchers. My son who is an elite player doesnt pitch, he plays infield so I dont have these issues with him.

The only issue I have ever had was a coach trying to change his swing. My sons swing didnt fit the norm of this particular coaches understanding of Linearswing mechanics.

My son hits rotational and has way above avg swing mechanics. At 9 yrs old he was hitting and working out off an 85mph pitching machine set at 55 feet with a drop 8 bat. He had played baseball for less than 6 months. The hand speed is god given but as you know it takes more than just god given talent.

However I have seen enough coaches abusing these 10,11 and 12 yr old pitchers in my short time in youth baseball. Kids pitching 4 innings then being put behind the plate catching or after throwing 100 + pitches being placed behind the plate catching right after the last game.

These are the so called coaches I have no respect for. Winning is nice but it doesnt have to come above a childs health if that coach has any clue as to what they are doing. If coaches always considered a childs health before a medal, then parents wouldnt have to get involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

So RJM lets put this to the test. If I am your 12 yr old sons coach and I make him throw during a tournament 2 games and a 140 pitches per game with his arm hurting are you going to try and tell me I cant throw him that much?

You dont even have to respond because I already know the answer but take your answer and apply it to your comments and MAYBE you will see how stupid your application to my comment was.

If I had a 12 year old and you did something like that and he hurt his arm, you'd likely leave the ballpark on a stretcher and I'd be leaving in handcuffs.

I don't like "pitch counts" but that is pure craziness and it wouldn't go over well. That's nearly 300 pitches in (I would assume) a short time and it doesn't even count how many pitches he threw to warm up before the game or between innings. Even to me, that is excessive.

Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.

I agree. I hope you didnt take that as the way I would treat a pitcher...LOL I was trying to make a point to RJM.

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I agree. I hope you didnt take that as the way I would treat a pitcher...

You apparently missed my second point which may be the most important one...

quote:

However if I had a child that pitches with the knowledge I have. I would have no problem prior to joining any team telling the coaches my son has certain pitching limits that can not be exceeded.

If that coach agreed to my terms and we all had an understanding then we would join that team. If that coach took the stance that he could pitch MY CHILD as much as he wanted then I would personally say thank you but no thank you.

We would get to thank you, but no thank you the moment you attempted to dictate terms. I don't bother with PITA parents. The teams reputation for handling players stood for itself. We didn't need a parents telling us how to do it. I'd have trouble with your "I'm smarter than you because I played college ball" attitude. The coaching staff was four former college players of which two played pro ball. Three were pitchers. One was a catcher.

quote:

Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.

No I didnt miss it but I have wrote a book today on this thread lol.

Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.

Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.

Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.

They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.

Now Im the first one to say you should give everything you got to a team but there are limits at this age.

My point is kids will lie about how they feel just to keep from letting their team down or they feel without them pitching or hitting the teams chances of winning decrease. Its a lot of pressure kids are put under now a days with the win at all cost attitudes they see from some parents and coaches.

So IMO parents not coaches when it comes to a childs health or future are best suited to make those calls in youth baseball.

quote:

My son who is an elite player

Your ten year old son is playing showcase ball? Wow! At ten I only said my kids were good for their age.

quote:

Originally posted by OCB:

quote:

Now from a coaching standpoint, I'm not going to allow a parent to tell me when their son can and cannot pitch. That is a decision that would be made by me, one of the other coaches, and/or the player. If the player's arm is hurting, he's coming out. If he feeling good, looking good, and is effective then he will stay in the game.

No I didnt miss it but I have wrote a book today on this thread lol.

Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.

Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.

Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.
They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.

Now Im the first one to say you should give everything you got to a team but there are limits at this age.

My point is kids will lie about how they feel just to keep from letting their team down or they feel without them pitching or hitting the teams chances of winning decrease. Its a lot of pressure kids are put under now a days with the win at all cost attitudes they see from some parents and coaches.

So IMO parents not coaches when it comes to a childs health or future are best suited to make those calls in youth baseball.

Been there,my son played a basketball game when we thought after the game that he had a broken finger,the coaches never new he was hurt,all they knew was that he couldn't shoot that day.Then I had the other coaches saying he had a bad game,I said no,his finger was jammed right before the game and it wasn't untill a few days later did we get to thinking he might have broken it.

I feel parents should have a say with preteen players when it comes to health.Not when it comes to positions on the field or playing time.We may not like it but we should just sit back and let the coaches make the call,regardless how bad we think their decissions are.

OCB,you have a pm.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

However if I had a child that pitches with the knowledge I have. I would have no problem prior to joining any team telling the coaches my son has certain pitching limits that can not be exceeded.

If that coach agreed to my terms and we all had an understanding then we would join that team. If that coach took the stance that he could pitch MY CHILD as much as he wanted then I would personally say thank you but no thank you.

We would get to thank you, but no thank you the moment you attempted to dictate terms. I don't bother with PITA parents. The teams reputation for handling players stood for itself. We didn't need a parents telling us how to do it. I'd have trouble with your "I'm smarter than you because I played college ball" attitude. The coaching staff was four former college players of which two played pro ball. Three were pitchers. One was a catcher.

Well I dont know about what the baseball or parents are like up in your area, but down here you would struggle to put together an elite team with what you refer to as PITA parents. What you call PITA I call intelligence.

In the 10u, 11u and 12u age brackets we have top 5 nationally ranked teams in all those age brackets with stud pitchers who all have parents that put pitch limits on their kids that the coaches abide by.

If anyone of these coaches said no to these parents. Those pitchers would all be on opposing teams helping to take them to the tops of the national rankings and its already happened to one 10u and 12u team.

OCB ...

I think you better start your own team or find a coach you can walk on. A knowledgeable coach isn't going to put up with your stuff. It's obvious you have an attitude most coaches don't know what they're doing. That may be the case on daddyball teams where daddy is trying to get that trophy his kid didn't get in all-stars. The good organizations don't have that problem. I never coached like I needed another trophy. I coached to teach kids how to play the game better.

quote:

Well I dont know about what the baseball or parents are like up in your area, but down here you would struggle to put together an elite team with what you refer to as PITA parents. What you call PITA I call intelligence.

In the 10u, 11u and 12u age brackets we have top 5 nationally ranked teams in all those age brackets with stud pitchers who all have parents that put pitch limits on their kids that the coaches abide by.

If anyone of these coaches said no to these parents. Those pitchers would all be on opposing teams helping to take them to the tops of the national rankings and its already happened to one 10u and 12u team.

1) I call a PITA a parent who attempts to interfere with the operation of the team.
2) Who cares who's nationally ranked before high school?
3) You have coaches who are willing to sell their souls to win if they're letting the parents dictate terms.

"Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."

Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.

By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
"Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."

Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.

By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting.

This is a highly debated subject and I will give my experience.My son's coach(9-10 years old) was dead set against any kind of curve(former minor leaguer)I watched a kid on an opposing team throwing slurves in every game he pitched,his dad is a doctor.

His dad made that call,not the coaches.

quote:

Lets say you have a stud player. The type of player every team in your area would die for.The kind of player that is a game changer. You mean to tell me that if that players dad said you need to do this with my son or that with my son, you would tell him to get lost?

Absolutely. Right after I remind the dad of the rules and he declines to follow them. There's no kid too good to bow to. This is how prima donnas are created. As a coach one of my responsibilities is not to allow kids to become prima donnas on my watch. I turned two away before I made a roster. I'm into developing players, not prima donnas.

The team aways finished at least in the top six in the state, for what that matters before high school. In reality we looked for the right tournaments regardless of affiliation. We looked for quality, not rankings. We weren't intersted in beating up on teams for points when there was a better tournament to be played elsewhere. They won a lot of games and won several tournaments.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
OCB ...

I think you better start your own team or find a coach you can walk on. A knowledgeable coach isn't going to put up with your stuff. It's obvious you have an attitude most coaches don't know what they're doing. That may be the case on daddyball teams where daddy is trying to get that trophy his kid didn't get in all-stars. The good organizations don't have that problem. I never coached like I needed another trophy. I coached to teach kids how to play the game better.

As I mentioned my son doesnt pitch and he is on one of those nationally ranked teams. I dont coach during the games, Im a stand dad. However during practices both teams my son plays for all have me work with the kids because they respect the knowledge I have and realize it only helps the kids which in turn helps the team.

I have had my glory days. I dont need to be the coach of record. I can help in the shadows and be satisfied personally knowing that I have help a group of kids reach that next level.

quote:

Ask ANY HS, College, Ex MLB pitcher or MLB pitching coach when a kid should start to throw curve balls. Non of these individuals will say at ages 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or even 16."

Based on what? They're misinformed. Dr Andrew's organization did the research. They could not find any connection between a properly thrown curve and arm injury in youth pitchers.

By the way. Welcome to the board. It's been interesting..

I suggest you read the report done by Lyman. Everyone will have their own opinions but based off of experience I have seen hundreds of kids from ages 11 to 22 end their pitching careers from throwing curve balls or being over pitched.

Also thanks for the welcome. None of this is meant to be a personal attack on you. Just like you I find it to be an interesting discussion with varying opinions.

I'll bet most of those injuries were misdiagnosed as being related to curves rather than from simple overuse. Dr Andrew's (I presume you know who he is) organization made the focus the curve. They could not find a correlation. They came back and said the kids injuring their arms were either throwing the curve wrong or usually just plain pitching too much.

I do believe there are way too many kids throwing curves incorrectly. When we made the 13U travel team comprised of the best LL all-stars from the district, we had several kids junk their curves. They were throwing it wrong and creating stress on their forearm and elbow.

quote:

I must respectfully disagree with you. Even a slurve does damage to the growth plates/tendons/ligaments of a young pitcher.

See? A slurve (part slider and part curve)especially does damage to the medial collateral ligament. The curve (12-6 roatation away from the pitcher) is thrown the same as a fast ball at the shoulder and elbow.

You are not only disagreeing with me about going from pitch to another position other than catching, you are disagreeing with the scientists who have studied it. Again, trot over to ASMI.

You dogmatically proclaim that harm will come with overuse. I say it may happen. How many pitches in your estimate (per game, per week, per year) constitutes overuse?

Yes, if that stud player was being micromanaged by his father it would become acidic to the team and they would both be gone. You learn these things after you have some experience with youth ball. And you, Mr. HS coach, would you prostitute yourself to keep the stud? You are right, I don't have a top elite team. My coaching days are over. There is no such thing as elite in youth baseball except in the minds of the coaches who have recruited early bloomers from far and wide.

I think we have both made our positions clear enough that further discourse is useless. You believe what you want. I have you pegged now as someone not very knowledgeable in youth sports and may well believe that success there is predictive of future success. Enjoy the ride.

I pitched until I was 15 (and I mean a lot!) and I can't say I ever threw a curve ball in a game. I didn't need it. I've heard and read time and time again scouts and coaches saying "I can teach him to throw a curve ball; I can't teach him to throw 90 mph" and I think it's absolutely right.

In fact, I pitched so much between ages 9-14 that most people would criticize my coaches I'm sure. See, there was no such thing as a pitch count--I pitched if I was allowed to pitch. It was all about the innings. And as soon as I was done pitching, I went to behind the plate, short stop, or 3rd base. I had ONE time when my arm actually hurt and that was in high school when we played 3 days in a row and it was COLD.

quote:

Most kids dont want to let their team down so its hard as a coach to sometimes see if a kid is really hurting. You said if a player is looking good, feeling good and is effective he wont come out of the game.

Now I will ask. Who knows the child better, you as a coach or me as a parent. I think we both know the answer to that question.

Parents see things in their child that most dont when they are feeling bad. A good example. My son back in a tournament in Feb was sick, the coaches never knew until I told them he was feeling bad.

They took him out of the game when he didnt want to come out and he got upset about it. After the game even after puking his guts up he told me he didnt want to come out because he wanted to help his team.

That's part of my training and education. I see many things that others don't see. I'm not saying I "know" someone better than his or her parent, but I can read when someone is hurt.

The players I coached last year and the players I work with on a daily basis know that the most important thing to me is their health. Yes, I know they are going to lie to me (I was just like them only a few years ago).

The thing about pain and sickness, etc is that only they know when it's too much. There's a difference between hurt and injured and they have to know what that is. They have to know when they have to stop. I think most do that.

quote:

You are not only disagreeing with me about going from pitch to another position other than catching, you are disagreeing with the scientists who have studied it. Again, trot over to ASMI..

Everyone has an opinion, if all scientist were right all the time we wouldnt have cancer or we wouldnt have thought the world was flat...LOL

My opinions come from 20+ years either playing baseball or coaching. Most all scientific studies are skewed and or flawed. The sampling is too small and lacks quality control measures.

quote:

You dogmatically proclaim that harm will come with overuse. I say it may happen. How many pitches in your estimate (per game, per week, per year) constitutes overuse?..

You will have to forgive me but there was another study last year and I forgot who did the study. However it suggested that youth baseball players from the ages of 9 to 12 shouldnt exceed more than 80 throws a day. This was another study I believe was skewed because it group those opinions based on pitchers but applied them to every position within baseball.

My personal opinion based on my experience. From ages 9-10 I suggest no more than 80 thrown balls a day using a lot of exertion for any position other than pitching.

What I have seen is that kids in this age range tend to weaken after 80 thrown balls. Once the arm become weak, there is then the increased chance of arm injury. This is only my opinion.

quote:

I think we have both made our positions clear enough that further discourse is useless. You believe what you want. I have you pegged now as someone not very knowledgeable in youth sports and may well believe that success there is predictive of future success. Enjoy the ride.

Success is a byproduct of hard work and dedication. Can you predict whether or not a kid playing youth baseball has a chance to play in the Majors...No but any child who dares to dream, has the inate tools and puts all the hard work required to achieve that dream, has a better chance of realizing that dream than any kid just blessed with nothing but raw talent and no work ethic.

OMG. You came here to this board not to gain information but rather to pontificate your beliefs. You have demonstrated that you do not know the difference between a curve and a slurve. You are looking for justification of your positions which didn't happen. Now you say that pitch limits should be the same for a 9 year old as for a 12 year old. Your first post had it right but not strong enough. You don't know squat about youth baseball.

quote:

Most all scientific studies are skewed and or flawed. The sampling is too small and lacks quality control measures.

I've been down this road a few weeks ago talking about squat technique (in S&C section). I would be laughed right out of a job if I talked about things like that. In fact, I would say a lot of health care people would be laughed right out of jobs if they talked like that.

quote:

You will have to forgive me but there was another study last year and I forgot who did the study. However it suggested that youth baseball players from the ages of 9 to 12 shouldnt exceed more than 80 throws a day. This was another study I believe was skewed because it group those opinions based on pitchers but applied them to every position within baseball.

quote:

My personal opinion based on my experience. From ages 9-10 I suggest no more than 80 thrown balls a day using a lot of exertion for any position other than pitching.

So which is it? Studies are no good even though one appears to agree with your opinion?

There is no magic number. Each person is different and each person is going to have a different threshold. A player is done when his performance drops, he says he's hurting, or he is visually hurting. That can be at pitch #5 or that could be at pitch #115.

Boys, Boys...

Can't we just get along?

I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.

So, how old until this is safe to throw?

quote:

I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.

So, how old until this is safe to throw?

I can't fully answer your question. I am not a fan of any breaking ball being thrown until junior or senior year of high school. Many will disagree with me, but I think it is more important for a kid to learn how to throw his fastball and his change up for a strike at the younger age. So I would say throw the breaking ball sparingly, but that's just might take

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

I am concerned about the topic of what pitches, how many etc. a boy should throw. My boy is 10. He has (on his own) figured out how to throw a breaking ball, more of a slider, and it's working for him. 0-and-2 or 1-and-2 LL batters will almost always chase it and miss. I sure don't want him ruining his arm, but man, it is effective.

So, how old until this is safe to throw?

I can't fully answer your question. I am not a fan of any breaking ball being thrown until junior or senior year of high school. Many will disagree with me, but I think it is more important for a kid to learn how to throw his fastball and his change up for a strike at the younger age. So I would say throw the breaking ball sparingly, but that's just might take

Poppi I agree with Bulldog. As he stated in one of his post any college or MLB coach will tell you he can teach a kid to throw a curve ball quickly.

Work on throwing the fastball and changeups and hitting his spots. There is no need at 10 yrs to place undue stress or strain on your sons arm. A good changeup will sit those same batters down as will that curve ball.

quote:

So which is it? Studies are no good even though one appears to agree with your opinion?

I dont care for too many studies. IMO most are skewed to represent the group or agencies who have paid for them. I would expand on this but it would be another book LOL.

And yes even the ones that agree with me I still dont give them much weight. I base my opinions off of my own personal experience. Can I be wrong...yes..Can I be right...Yes...this is why they call them opinions

OCB ...

I just wanted to say I enjoyed the exchange. We're very much on the same page in regards to the objective. We just disagree on how to get there. I will admit I couldn't resist the jab at calling a 10 year old elite.

When we ran the team from 13-15U the primary goal was to prepare players for high school ball and win as much as possible within those goals without harming any players. We weren't the team with the five stud pitchers. Pre high school stud pitchers often come packaged with PITA fathers. What we had was eleven good pitchers that just kept coming at teams. While some teams would ride their aces, we would be bringing in a fresh pitcher. A good, fresh pitcher is better than a tired stud.

When I started the team the first step was quality instruction. I put together a coaching staff of former college players (some with pro experience) to cover all the positions. One was an OF/P. One was an INF/P. One was a catcher. One was an All-American pitcher. We wanted to be able to teach every aspect of the game. I'm pleased with the results. As I mentioned eleven of fourteen are starting on varsity as sophs. Some of it's instruction. More of it is the players talent, motivation and willingness to learn. At 16U some are headed into showcase environments. Last year as fifteen year olds we pushed them up to 16U. They didn't win any tournaments. But they met the challenge of competing.

I'm not a big fan of the USSSA or AAU type tournament play during the preteen years. I don't like the idea of little kids playing more than two games a day. I don't like the idea there are more nutcase coaches abusing pitcher in preteen travel than teenage travel. It's more important to look at the coach's philosophy than winning percentage when choosing a pre high school team. No one remembers who won before high school. It's not even discussed. The few "remember whens" are more likely to be about the humorous moments than the games. We had some classic humorous memories watching little boys turning into young men.

Fortunately Ripken and LL are still popular and quality ball in our area through age twelve. At 9U and 10U the kids played in local community based all-star summer tournaments with only four games in a tournament. That minimizes the need for a lot of innings versus the five or six game tournaments in national organizations. Still, I'm not a fan of 9's and 10's pitching more than a couple of innings a week. It's just not that important to pitch at that age.

At 11U and 12U we did the USSSA Sunday doubleheader league with the prospective LL all-stars. Fourteen kids pitched an inning. The all-star team played into August both years so that was summer ball. I believe the doubleheader league gave them the week to week competition to be ready for all-stars.

The kids came out of the 13-15 travel with a lot of medals (my son plays ring toss with them) and now varsity letters. Mission accomplished. Now it's on other coaches to help the ones that want it get to college ball. When my son was invited to join a showcase program it was time to turn him over. I also believe it's possible to coach your own kid too long.

Good luck. Enjoy the journey. If you look too far down the road you'll miss a lot of fun along the way.

RJM- No question there are bad parents out there. Also no question there are bad coaches. There's a difference in setting pitching limits and dictating how to play your son. My thought is that a coach should have a set philosophy on how he uses his pitching staff and stick to it no matter the situation.

A good program has long-term philosophies as opposed to short-term, reactionary decisions. The key is to find a program that understands priorities. This is a journey and all of these games and tournaments are just quizzes and tests on how the development is progressing. The byproduct is that good programs will also win their share because they take care of the process.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Now as for that travel ball coach who would not place your son on a roster if you told him how many pitches your SON is allowed to throw. I say run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that coach. If his coach is that way then this tells me he has no concern for your childs health and is only concerned about his reputation based on his winning percentage to be aquired at all cost.

Coaches, if any parent tries to dictate terms and conditions on how their son will be used run, run, run, run, run AS FAR AWAY as you can from that parent. It will only get worse every week. If the parent is that way he is only concerned about his kid and doesn't respect the team or the coaching staff.

RJM,

I also enjoyed our debate. It was fun and enlighting. As I mentioned I am new to youth baseball so this experience with my son has been an eye opening experience.

I have seen things that turn my stomach as an ex coach. I have also seen things that give me hope for our future baseball players.

You mentioned about how most stud pitcher dads are using your words PITA parents. I havent seen that here in youth travel ball. Two of the best pitchers in this area their dads are fantastic. Maybe I am just lucky.

Now dont get me wrong I have seen some dads that make your eyes roll back in your head LOL and seen some moms that make the dads look like angels. Dont let the moms fool you, they can be twice as bad as daddy can LOL

Ive seen good coaches but probably seem more bad ones. Its not their attitudes with the kids, its their lack of knowledge and instructing the kids incorrectly. It takes more time to correct bad mechanics than too create new proper ones

Its coaches that run their teams out of innings, its coaches that call 2-0 and 3-0 curve balls, its coaches arguing rules on the field that have no clue as to what they are talking about and only embarassing their team and child, its coaches calling 0-2 high fastballs when based on a kids swing you can tell likes the high heat and the kid hits it out of the park and the coach jumps all over the pitcher. I could go on and on LOL.

Trust me I dont know everything about baseball but based on most of what I have seen in youth travel ball for coaches I look like a genius...LMAO.

As mentioned my son is new to baseball as well. He started playing last March in Rec ball. He played a little more than half the season and we moved to south florida. He started playing in a 12u wood bat league in the summer and competitive travel in August and since playing 10u and 11u as a 9 yr old hit over 750 and defensively has a tremendous gift on the infield.

Maybe in some way no matter what our experience level is as fathers we always want to believe that our child has a chance. I am no different even though I try to be objective.

Please trust me I am not trying to brag here but would like some opinions.

How many 9yr olds who had played baseball for less than a year do you know or have seen that can hit with solid mechanics an 85 mph pitch consistantly?

Im glad I found this forum. It looks to be a lot of fun and informative. Hope you and I get a chance to interact more on some of these issues.

Let's review the difference between a MLB curve and a slurve or LL curve.

A true, properly thrown curve breaks downward with a rotation of 12 to 6 away from the pitcher. It is not effective on the small diamond because there is not enough distance for it to break well and because kids cannot generate enough rotational velocity. The shoulder and elbow joint movement is the same as a fast ball. It is different from a fast ball at the wrist joint only. It is no more stressful than a fast ball.

A slurve is part slider with lateral rotation and part curve with vertical rotation. Because of the supination and snapping off motion is is very stressful on the medial epicondyle of the elbow with a high risk of developing LL elbow. The rotation is in the neighborhood of 45 degrees and it breaks laterally and vertically making it an effective pitch but only on the small diamond with inexperienced batters. After that it is batting practice since it is easily picked up by the batter. I would forbid any youth player from throwing this pitch.

Before hitting the full sized diamond a pitcher should master (have command and control) of a 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up. Nothing more is necessary to be effective.

Wow....long thread.

I think several of you are saying the same thing, just in different ways.

There are a few things I don't agree with, but that's just my opinion.

First off, a real 12-6 curveball is no more stressful on a young or older arm than a fastball. Problem is not too many people involved with youth baseball know how to throw it and even fewer know how to teach it and watch for proper form.

I started throwing one at 10. My Dad caught me messing around with a "Curve" ball on my own. "Curve" = cranking it over making it move. He showed me the correct way to throw it. (Like Daque stated, elbow / shoulder looks / acts like fastball. It's simply a different angle with the wrist and the fingers / wrist do all the "work".

I threw for 9 more years before a previous HS football injury caught up with me.

Honestly I can say, on days that I was tired, and pitching, it was easier on me to throw a curve than a fastball.

I think many coaches and MLB / ex-MLB players are well aware of the lawsuit happy country we live in. Of course you won't hear them telling kids to throw curve balls.

Know I DO BELIEVE that kids AND coaches can fall into a "trap" with the curveball at a young age. It will get outs...and pitchers tend to rely on it instead of relying on their Fastball, location and a CU or other off speed pitch.

A good curveball at 12U travel ball is really effective when thrown a few times an inning. Just enough to get the kids, parents and coaches yelling "Watch for the curve" on every two strike count. My pitchers know that when they hear this, they throw it high and hard....of course most hitters are expecting curve when that's all he's hearing.

As for pitch limits....

There are coaches that will overuse youth pitchers. And as a coach and a parent...I can say if it was my kid on the mound, and I was not a coach, and the kid's arm was hurting, mechanics were failing, and the kid was obviously in pain...it would be the last time the coach did that to my son. I wouldn't dictate terms...he just wouldn't be playing for him anymore.

Of course that wouldn't happen...since every youth coach (even at "elite" levels) that would do this....they already have a reputation. You just have to talk to the right people. So if I was just a parent, my kid would never have been there to start.

Pitch counts aren't the answer either..not in full. Because at say 12 year old for example, every kid is different. Strength, early bloomers, superior mechanics and conditioning...all these effect "pitch counts".

On my 12U team I've got two big strong 12 year olds with solid mechanics. They normally pitch an inning or two of "tune up" on Saturday Pool play just to get some work. This usually equates to roughly 15-30 pitches on Saturday. On an average tournament Sunday, each will pitch 3-6 innings.....pitch counts vary....I keep track, but more importantly I know each kid's mechanics..and when they start to fail, they come out.

On the other hand I've got two other kids...both effective pitchers, but not quite as developed as the other two. Their usual pitch count threshholds are much lower. I also know when their mechanics are failing them when they tire.

Alot of problem with pitching and youth baseball is lack of knowledge and common sense.

But the simple fact is that young players need to throw....ALOT more than most do. I didn't say pitch...I said throw.

Kids seem to be getting much bigger and much stronger these days, but pitch counts keep getting lower and lower. Why?

Maybe between pitching instruction, playing on multiple teams, kids pitch more than throw.

I preach to my players to THROW everyday...and I can see the difference in those that do. Arm strength is not an accident.