The kid who would be my ace is not going to come out. Says he's done with baseball. It's pretty disappointing for me.. we were going to be young to begin with; now we are really up against it.
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What is his reason for not coming out?
I have a kid who was all conference as a sophomore not coming out his senior year. I am disappointed in him for not accepting a leadership role his senior year, but I have come to realize that he saw baseball as a social event. All his friends were a year older than him, so now he feels baseball has nothing to offer him. He must have never really liked baseball, he just happened to be good at it.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have someone who wants to play taking his spot.
We've also noticed another interesting trend at our school in all sports not just baseball. Kids are not coming out as Juniors, then deciding their Senior season they decide to come out. My take on that is they feel they may not play their junior season, so they don't put in all that time and get "nothing from it." Then they feel they have a better chance to play their senior years, so they come out. This is pretty disturbing to all of our coaches. I think it shows that the kids aren't getting what they should out of athletics. Any thoughts?
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have someone who wants to play taking his spot.
We've also noticed another interesting trend at our school in all sports not just baseball. Kids are not coming out as Juniors, then deciding their Senior season they decide to come out. My take on that is they feel they may not play their junior season, so they don't put in all that time and get "nothing from it." Then they feel they have a better chance to play their senior years, so they come out. This is pretty disturbing to all of our coaches. I think it shows that the kids aren't getting what they should out of athletics. Any thoughts?
quote:Originally posted by BCRockets:
I have a kid who was all conference as a sophomore not coming out his senior year. I am disappointed in him for not accepting a leadership role his senior year, but I have come to realize that he saw baseball as a social event. All his friends were a year older than him, so now he feels baseball has nothing to offer him. He must have never really liked baseball, he just happened to be good at it.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have someone who wants to play taking his spot.
We've also noticed another interesting trend at our school in all sports not just baseball. Kids are not coming out as Juniors, then deciding their Senior season they decide to come out. My take on that is they feel they may not play their junior season, so they don't put in all that time and get "nothing from it." Then they feel they have a better chance to play their senior years, so they come out. This is pretty disturbing to all of our coaches. I think it shows that the kids aren't getting what they should out of athletics. Any thoughts?
BC, I know what you're saying about the junior not playing and then coming out as a senior. We had a couple do that last year. My dad tells me that our coach told the players at a recent meeting that if you quit, you quit.
Skipper, our football coach I think said it best my senior year when we had several quit right before two-a-days.. "No point in worrying about them. I'm only worried about the ones who want to be here."
We have kids who either quit early on - like Freshmen or Sophomores and then come out their senior year. It's killing our football team. They won't come out or play freshman year and quit so we have no kids coming up. The reason they don't is they don't like losing and getting beat like we do but then they want to play their senior year because they want to be able to say that they did. I keep telling them if they want us to win then solve the problem by playing all 4 years and get others to play.
This year we are going on a spring break trip to the beach and I can't tell you how many kids have said they are coming out. Where were they the previous years when we weren't really going anywhere? Where was their school spirit and love for the game then?
I have started spreading the word if you are trying out for the first time and you are a junior or senior then you better be a stud because I am cutting them. Also, I have let it slip I already know who is going and there is no point to come out if that is why they are coming out.
This year we are going on a spring break trip to the beach and I can't tell you how many kids have said they are coming out. Where were they the previous years when we weren't really going anywhere? Where was their school spirit and love for the game then?
I have started spreading the word if you are trying out for the first time and you are a junior or senior then you better be a stud because I am cutting them. Also, I have let it slip I already know who is going and there is no point to come out if that is why they are coming out.
Seems typical of todays culture does it not ?
If I cannot be a starter I am not coming out for the team
SAD SAD SAD !!!!
If I cannot be a starter I am not coming out for the team
SAD SAD SAD !!!!
A few years ago an old (RE experienced) HS coach once told me that "sometimes the best players are sitting in the stands" At the time I did not understand what he was talking about.
Now that I am watching my son and what is happening at his HS, there are many reasons for kids not to play a particular sport. Playing multiple sports takes a lot of discipline that some don't have, others want to focus on one sport, grades, family issues, the list is long. Some HS coaches are out recruiting athletes from other sports (within the school) however our baseball coach is pretty straightforward saying he only wants the kids that want to be there.
Now that I am watching my son and what is happening at his HS, there are many reasons for kids not to play a particular sport. Playing multiple sports takes a lot of discipline that some don't have, others want to focus on one sport, grades, family issues, the list is long. Some HS coaches are out recruiting athletes from other sports (within the school) however our baseball coach is pretty straightforward saying he only wants the kids that want to be there.
trojan-skipper,
My only thought would be that you can't dwell on who won't be there, you can only do your best to get those who do come out ready. Use this as a positive for the guys who do play (even if you don't think it is). Get the message across that, yeah, this sucks, but it's an opportunity for you guys to step up and pick up the slack. Let them know that this creates more playing time and more competition for that playing time for the guys who do want to be there.
My only thought would be that you can't dwell on who won't be there, you can only do your best to get those who do come out ready. Use this as a positive for the guys who do play (even if you don't think it is). Get the message across that, yeah, this sucks, but it's an opportunity for you guys to step up and pick up the slack. Let them know that this creates more playing time and more competition for that playing time for the guys who do want to be there.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Seems typical of todays culture does it not ?
If I cannot be a starter I am not coming out for the team
SAD SAD SAD !!!!
TR, I believe part of that falls on our travel leagues. If you want to play, you can play somewhere on a travel team somewhere. If you're not very good, hey let's just make another team!
Also, there are probably some that don't come out for high school baseball because they have been forced (by parents, by other coaches, by college recruitment) to play around the clock in "exposure" areas.
One of our better players didn't come out last year as a junior because he didn't like the coach. That team came one out away from going to states. If I were him, I'd probably go through life wondering how far the team could have gone with me in the line-up.
It'll be interesting this year to see if 1. he tries out, and if he does, 2. the coach picks him.
It'll be interesting this year to see if 1. he tries out, and if he does, 2. the coach picks him.
In our high school, alot of kids didn't go out for basketball this year for similar reasons. Primarily, the coach only plays 6-7 players in a game (even in blowouts) and the other 8-10 kids sit. And the coach is known for making them run, and then run, and when their done, run some more. These kids are thinking "why bust my but running when I'll never get in a game". This is primarily at the varsity level, but its not that different at JV or freshman. No development of players. No work on technique so they can get better. Just yell at them when they don't do something right, and then make them run.
There are certainly times when I can understand their frustration..
There are certainly times when I can understand their frustration..
Our situation is a little different on the varsity baseball team. We have a pretty good coach who expects his kids to work, but also knows how to train. That's a problem for a bunch of kids who have never seen how a good team is run. Generally, coaching at the JV level and in the town leagues here is very lax and the coaches aren't very good. It is noteworthy that no other kids stayed away when given the opportunity to play on varsity.
It drives the varsity coach crazy that the JV coach isn't doing anything to help the kids move up. Unfortunately, it's political situation that makes the JV coach immovable.
It drives the varsity coach crazy that the JV coach isn't doing anything to help the kids move up. Unfortunately, it's political situation that makes the JV coach immovable.
I guess my question is, if the kids have changed to a "if I'm not going to play, I'm not going out" mentality (which is very sad), what can we do as coaches to make sure those kids at the end of the bench feel as if they got something out of being a part of the team?
We face similar problems at our school, in many sports. Kids dont want to lose and ride the bench, yet they dont want to put in the work to get better.
I can give you a slightly different perspective. There were several of us when we were juniors who decided not to play baseball. We all played in the summer and 3-4 of us would have started that year. We didn't play because we wanted to be as ready as possible for football our senior season. We were not slackers. We worked out 2 hours a day Monday thru Friday to get as big and strong as we could for our senior season on the football field. We worked out and ran and did whatever we could until 2 a days and we had a great season. Our work ethic payed off. That spring we went back to baseball. Our bb coach was PO'ed at us but really liked how we hit the ball with our added strength. He took us back as Seniors.
Remember, some of the reasons not to play are not selfish or being lazy. Merely different priorities.
Remember, some of the reasons not to play are not selfish or being lazy. Merely different priorities.
quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Remember, some of the reasons not to play are not selfish or being lazy. Merely different priorities.
Lots of ***-umtions being made.....
"Remember, some of the reasons not to play are not selfish or being lazy. Merely different priorities."
But, should you play before the kid that made baseball his priority? It is a tough problem for coaches. One thing that we really try to do at our school is to make every person feel important. We give those not in the game an important job. Some chart the opposing pitcher and make sure that each hitter is aware of tendencies, some try to pick up the opponents signs or see if the pitcher is tipping pitches, others may serve as courtesy runners. We try to give each a role and stress his importance. Another tradition we have started is that part way through the season, we choose an additional captain. This is someone that works hard and serves as a leader, but may not be on the field all the time. This has been a great boost to many kids.
But, should you play before the kid that made baseball his priority? It is a tough problem for coaches. One thing that we really try to do at our school is to make every person feel important. We give those not in the game an important job. Some chart the opposing pitcher and make sure that each hitter is aware of tendencies, some try to pick up the opponents signs or see if the pitcher is tipping pitches, others may serve as courtesy runners. We try to give each a role and stress his importance. Another tradition we have started is that part way through the season, we choose an additional captain. This is someone that works hard and serves as a leader, but may not be on the field all the time. This has been a great boost to many kids.
We always kept it simple. The best played in all sports at my HS and I hope it will be the same at my sons. It is also a lesson for life. The best get paid the best. Hard work and dedication is necessary in all aspects of life, but you have to have the talent and produce first. If someone is better than you, you either accept, or make yourself better. There aren't any other choices in life.
As for the other jobs, as long as the kids accept it, it sounds like a great way to keep everyone on the same page. I hope more coaches do that very thing.
Obviously I have a competitve sales background.
"Coffee is for closers!!"
As for the other jobs, as long as the kids accept it, it sounds like a great way to keep everyone on the same page. I hope more coaches do that very thing.
Obviously I have a competitve sales background.
"Coffee is for closers!!"
I have never seen a kid give up his HS team because he felt he got enough exposure in travel ball, etc. Any kid who would do that has taken some very bad advice. I can't imagine a college recruiting a kid who deliberately didn't go out for his HS team.
I HAVE seen kids give up HS ball after years in travel ball. The parents often blame "burn out". More often it is the result of the kid growing mature enough to see that perhaps his talent is not great enough to make further investment of time fruitful. Because there are so very many alternative activities available these days, many of these kids find better niches for themselves in lacrosse, volleyball, or whatever -- sports we didn't have in school back in the day.
I have also seen kids who lose the desire for the game, and who find HS ball not very enjoyable any more. One thing not mentioned above, though one of the posts perhaps hinted at it, is that sometimes the coach is a contributing factor. It's OK to be demanding and to seek those kids with drive. But it's still just teenage amateur ball, and if you are one to scream and throw things and act like it's life or death, you may well find yourself losing kids from your program every year. With all the field work, daily workouts, off season training, selling soap-on-a-rope and what have you, in the end if there's not something enjoyable as a payoff for all the effort, what do you expect to happen?
I HAVE seen kids give up HS ball after years in travel ball. The parents often blame "burn out". More often it is the result of the kid growing mature enough to see that perhaps his talent is not great enough to make further investment of time fruitful. Because there are so very many alternative activities available these days, many of these kids find better niches for themselves in lacrosse, volleyball, or whatever -- sports we didn't have in school back in the day.
I have also seen kids who lose the desire for the game, and who find HS ball not very enjoyable any more. One thing not mentioned above, though one of the posts perhaps hinted at it, is that sometimes the coach is a contributing factor. It's OK to be demanding and to seek those kids with drive. But it's still just teenage amateur ball, and if you are one to scream and throw things and act like it's life or death, you may well find yourself losing kids from your program every year. With all the field work, daily workouts, off season training, selling soap-on-a-rope and what have you, in the end if there's not something enjoyable as a payoff for all the effort, what do you expect to happen?
It's a different world now a days. Kids are more self-centered (good and bad), they have more interests, they have more pressure on them in various areas, and a whole bunch of other stuff. There are various reasons why kids don't play a sport one year and then the next.
I doubt any real coach would complain if they skipped off season workouts/playing if they concentrated on another sport. I think some coaches make the mistake that they believe their players should love the game the way the coach does. I love baseball with all my heart and it has made my life enjoyable, fortunate and opened up to various opportunities. I love this game - not all my player (in fact most) love the game the way I do. Once I got over that belief I feel I got better as a coach. I tell them every year at tryouts how much I love the game and I don't expect them to love it the way I do but they better respect the game or they will have trouble getting along with me.
I had a problem of trying to have too big of a team because I had the vision of having a varsity, JV and freshman team. I ended up having that with around 50 some kids playing. We made practice work with having just 4 coaches and only one field and sharing a hitting building with softball but it was one of the worst things I did. I was looking strictly at talent and figured character would work itself out. I have finally cut numbers down to about 30 some and things have been much better.
The reason for the last part is that you have to go with talent no matter how many you put on the team. But with fewer numbers you can find places to play the other kids much easier than if you had larger numbers (at least that is what I have found out). This helps with individual players developing ownership into the team. If I got 4 - 6 players on the bench they know there is a better chance of them getting in more quickly than if there were 10 players on the bench. Helps attitude, focus and accountability.
I doubt any real coach would complain if they skipped off season workouts/playing if they concentrated on another sport. I think some coaches make the mistake that they believe their players should love the game the way the coach does. I love baseball with all my heart and it has made my life enjoyable, fortunate and opened up to various opportunities. I love this game - not all my player (in fact most) love the game the way I do. Once I got over that belief I feel I got better as a coach. I tell them every year at tryouts how much I love the game and I don't expect them to love it the way I do but they better respect the game or they will have trouble getting along with me.
I had a problem of trying to have too big of a team because I had the vision of having a varsity, JV and freshman team. I ended up having that with around 50 some kids playing. We made practice work with having just 4 coaches and only one field and sharing a hitting building with softball but it was one of the worst things I did. I was looking strictly at talent and figured character would work itself out. I have finally cut numbers down to about 30 some and things have been much better.
The reason for the last part is that you have to go with talent no matter how many you put on the team. But with fewer numbers you can find places to play the other kids much easier than if you had larger numbers (at least that is what I have found out). This helps with individual players developing ownership into the team. If I got 4 - 6 players on the bench they know there is a better chance of them getting in more quickly than if there were 10 players on the bench. Helps attitude, focus and accountability.
OK. Now you all have got me fired up and I need to get some things off my chest.
I will tell you that I AM OLD. QUITE OLD. Almost 62 years old. And I have been coaching baseball in one form or another for 47 years at least.
In the mid 1980's I coached/managed a Little League affiliated baseball Team of 16 to 18 year olds for three years. In other words, high school age boys. These boys went to a high school whose boundaries included 2 Little League sanctioned Leagues. The League I coached in was the smaller of those Leagues. I had several players that played on the high school team [a few even started] and several that did not choose to be a part of the high school team, At least 2 of the boys that played for me were good enough to start on the high school team. I know because I watched the high school team play. But they chose not to play on the high school team. I never asked them for specifics. It did not matter to me because THEY LOVED TO PLAY THE GAME. They just did not want to play for the baseball team at their high school. Some of you, out there might want to read that again. Had I been the high school baseball coach I would have found out why. But that is another story.
There are two points I want to make while I am in the 1980's. First, could it possibly, per chance be that THEIR DECISION TO NOT PLAY HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL MIGHT NOT BE COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT. I knew the high school coach well enough to know this. He knew a lot about how to play baseball but he did not know a lot about how to put winning teams on the field. When I told him about these two boys in particular, he just smirked and said "they are losers." "That's an interesting comment," I said. "Those losers were an important part of my team that finished in second place in a 12 team league and the other league's team that has most of your starters playing for it never beat us and were a .500 team." He just shook his head and walked away. It goes without saying that he had never come to watch a single game we had played that whole season. In fact, he never came to watch a single game we played all 3 years I was the manager.
The second point is this. This happened 20 years ago. It is almost inevitable that some members of an older generation have a tendency to look at the present generation of high school age athletes as unique. As if they are so very different from the previous generations and most certainly different from THEIR GENERATION. They are quitters, losers, video game players, they have other priorities and if their highest priority is not baseball, they are being disloyal to their school and their teammates. WHAT A CROCK. They are not the first generation to be misunderstood by an older generation and I am sure they will not be the last. But it is rather obvious to me that good baseball players that love this game have been deciding who they want to play for and who they don't want to play for a long time and that will continue as long as baseball is played by teenage boys.
Now let's go to more recent times. I last coached an American Legion Team in 2005. The age group was 16-19. The team included a few college freshmen but mostly it was high school age players. Four small high schools [600-700 students in grades 10-12 at each school] fed into my team. One of the schools was not particularily fertile ground for ball players but the previous year I had 3 boys from that school that played for me. One [the starting shortstop] had turned 19 and was to old to play in 2005. As always, I went to watch the high school baseball team play and, in addition to the two young men that had played the year before and were still eligible, I watched an impressive 16 year old side arm pitcher that I had not seen before. It turned out he was a transfer from another state. I talked to him after the game [along with the other two boys] and he said he wanted to play after his high school season was over. I said great. Long story short, in 2005 he became the second best pitcher I had. He kept his fastball down in the zone and had a sidearm breaking pitch that was unhittable to right handed hitters. The next year, I am watching this same high school team [with a new coach; a teacher whose kid was a freshman player starting at shortstop] and this pitcher is not playing. He is not even on the bench. After the game, I asked the coach why this young man was not around. "He is not playing. I threw him and several others off the team. They were losers." It turned out that most of the "losers" were upper classmen whose positions were now being filled by freshmen and sophomores.
20 years goes by and they still don't get it.
Take a good look in the mirror tomorrow and have a nice day.
TW344
I will tell you that I AM OLD. QUITE OLD. Almost 62 years old. And I have been coaching baseball in one form or another for 47 years at least.
In the mid 1980's I coached/managed a Little League affiliated baseball Team of 16 to 18 year olds for three years. In other words, high school age boys. These boys went to a high school whose boundaries included 2 Little League sanctioned Leagues. The League I coached in was the smaller of those Leagues. I had several players that played on the high school team [a few even started] and several that did not choose to be a part of the high school team, At least 2 of the boys that played for me were good enough to start on the high school team. I know because I watched the high school team play. But they chose not to play on the high school team. I never asked them for specifics. It did not matter to me because THEY LOVED TO PLAY THE GAME. They just did not want to play for the baseball team at their high school. Some of you, out there might want to read that again. Had I been the high school baseball coach I would have found out why. But that is another story.
There are two points I want to make while I am in the 1980's. First, could it possibly, per chance be that THEIR DECISION TO NOT PLAY HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL MIGHT NOT BE COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT. I knew the high school coach well enough to know this. He knew a lot about how to play baseball but he did not know a lot about how to put winning teams on the field. When I told him about these two boys in particular, he just smirked and said "they are losers." "That's an interesting comment," I said. "Those losers were an important part of my team that finished in second place in a 12 team league and the other league's team that has most of your starters playing for it never beat us and were a .500 team." He just shook his head and walked away. It goes without saying that he had never come to watch a single game we had played that whole season. In fact, he never came to watch a single game we played all 3 years I was the manager.
The second point is this. This happened 20 years ago. It is almost inevitable that some members of an older generation have a tendency to look at the present generation of high school age athletes as unique. As if they are so very different from the previous generations and most certainly different from THEIR GENERATION. They are quitters, losers, video game players, they have other priorities and if their highest priority is not baseball, they are being disloyal to their school and their teammates. WHAT A CROCK. They are not the first generation to be misunderstood by an older generation and I am sure they will not be the last. But it is rather obvious to me that good baseball players that love this game have been deciding who they want to play for and who they don't want to play for a long time and that will continue as long as baseball is played by teenage boys.
Now let's go to more recent times. I last coached an American Legion Team in 2005. The age group was 16-19. The team included a few college freshmen but mostly it was high school age players. Four small high schools [600-700 students in grades 10-12 at each school] fed into my team. One of the schools was not particularily fertile ground for ball players but the previous year I had 3 boys from that school that played for me. One [the starting shortstop] had turned 19 and was to old to play in 2005. As always, I went to watch the high school baseball team play and, in addition to the two young men that had played the year before and were still eligible, I watched an impressive 16 year old side arm pitcher that I had not seen before. It turned out he was a transfer from another state. I talked to him after the game [along with the other two boys] and he said he wanted to play after his high school season was over. I said great. Long story short, in 2005 he became the second best pitcher I had. He kept his fastball down in the zone and had a sidearm breaking pitch that was unhittable to right handed hitters. The next year, I am watching this same high school team [with a new coach; a teacher whose kid was a freshman player starting at shortstop] and this pitcher is not playing. He is not even on the bench. After the game, I asked the coach why this young man was not around. "He is not playing. I threw him and several others off the team. They were losers." It turned out that most of the "losers" were upper classmen whose positions were now being filled by freshmen and sophomores.
20 years goes by and they still don't get it.
Take a good look in the mirror tomorrow and have a nice day.
TW344
Wow - thanks for the thrashing of all of us all over the United States. I really like how you compared the entire country to a section of West Virginia. That's fair.
Also, without rereading every post, I don't remember anyone in a previous thread saying the kid was a loser or quitter. They just stated it was happening and wondering why. You, and others, have put some of the reasons why they quit. I still don't remember where anyone really said anything negative about a kid. If I am wrong please point out that post to me.
There are quitters and losers out there. They quit and are bums every day of their life but we shouldn't categorize every kid like that. This is definately a case by case basis. I agree with you on that.
Maybe I read your post wrong since it's hard to determine the emotion when reading something on the internet but I think you weren't trying to come across as a very positive post. Once again if I am wrong then I apologize but I don't think anyone posted anything worthy of a tirade.
Thats my 2 cents.
Also, without rereading every post, I don't remember anyone in a previous thread saying the kid was a loser or quitter. They just stated it was happening and wondering why. You, and others, have put some of the reasons why they quit. I still don't remember where anyone really said anything negative about a kid. If I am wrong please point out that post to me.
There are quitters and losers out there. They quit and are bums every day of their life but we shouldn't categorize every kid like that. This is definately a case by case basis. I agree with you on that.
Maybe I read your post wrong since it's hard to determine the emotion when reading something on the internet but I think you weren't trying to come across as a very positive post. Once again if I am wrong then I apologize but I don't think anyone posted anything worthy of a tirade.
Thats my 2 cents.
TW,
Don't fret, I read your post and got your point.
No way did I understand you were refering to those that quit as losers. In fact the way I seeit, you were bashing those reasons why we see players that quit as "losers" and sometimes, they don't "quit" they get tossed for some reason or another.
We love the game, our kids love it and want to play beyond HS. There are many who don't see it that way. That's in any sport. My son had a very good friend who was a s o cc e r standout in his state. By his senior year he decided not to play anymore, he wanted to work to save money for college, he had no interest in playing beyond HS. Whatever anyones reasons for not playing in HS, or beyond, is their decision, regardless of past or present generations, kids are kids and have the freedom to choose as they please.
I'll bet there are many players in the game who really don't want to be there, except that mom and dad don't want it to end, want them to get scholarships to help pay for college. These are generally unhappy players. JMO.
Don't fret, I read your post and got your point.
No way did I understand you were refering to those that quit as losers. In fact the way I seeit, you were bashing those reasons why we see players that quit as "losers" and sometimes, they don't "quit" they get tossed for some reason or another.We love the game, our kids love it and want to play beyond HS. There are many who don't see it that way. That's in any sport. My son had a very good friend who was a s o cc e r standout in his state. By his senior year he decided not to play anymore, he wanted to work to save money for college, he had no interest in playing beyond HS. Whatever anyones reasons for not playing in HS, or beyond, is their decision, regardless of past or present generations, kids are kids and have the freedom to choose as they please.
I'll bet there are many players in the game who really don't want to be there, except that mom and dad don't want it to end, want them to get scholarships to help pay for college. These are generally unhappy players. JMO.
Sometimes there comes a time where a kid may have had enough of all the garbage that goes with playing. It's just not fun anymore.
I'm not saying Trojanskipper is this way at all. However, last night I was explaining to a local scout/friend what was going on at my sons school, already. Tryouts haven't even started. His exact words to me were they will either hurt him or break him. He's a pretty tough kid with a great attitude but when a so called coach says " you are a fierce competitor,work harder than anyone and have the best torque he's seen. Then turns around and says you have a big ego, are narrow minded and says you have your dad's personality(he doesn't even know me). Last year it was you need more confidence. What does a 16yr old kid say. I'm afraid he will say I quit! We filled out the transfer paperwork last night but his mother in tears stopped it at least for now.
I'm not saying Trojanskipper is this way at all. However, last night I was explaining to a local scout/friend what was going on at my sons school, already. Tryouts haven't even started. His exact words to me were they will either hurt him or break him. He's a pretty tough kid with a great attitude but when a so called coach says " you are a fierce competitor,work harder than anyone and have the best torque he's seen. Then turns around and says you have a big ego, are narrow minded and says you have your dad's personality(he doesn't even know me). Last year it was you need more confidence. What does a 16yr old kid say. I'm afraid he will say I quit! We filled out the transfer paperwork last night but his mother in tears stopped it at least for now.
bb1,
Your son has one of two choices. He hangs in there and goes through try outs, transfers and sees the same BS elsewhere.
Yes, this is a big reason why some kids leave the game. There are lots of kids that leave that situation to find it where ever they go. I have a freind who took her son out of one program to escape the PC BS and found it worse in the new situation.
PC BS is a HUGE part of this game at every level, all experience it, no matter the talent. If a player and his folks can't understand or take it, move on but not with the view that it will change.
It doesn't.
JMO.
Your son has one of two choices. He hangs in there and goes through try outs, transfers and sees the same BS elsewhere.
Yes, this is a big reason why some kids leave the game. There are lots of kids that leave that situation to find it where ever they go. I have a freind who took her son out of one program to escape the PC BS and found it worse in the new situation.
PC BS is a HUGE part of this game at every level, all experience it, no matter the talent. If a player and his folks can't understand or take it, move on but not with the view that it will change.
It doesn't.
JMO.
TPM
Agreed. And that was part of the discussion. There is no promise that things will be better anywhere else. This will be his last chance really to move. After this he would have to sit out half the season as a junior. So it is do it now or live with what you got. Friends and his mom were the 2 deciding factors last night. Although while his school is rated high academically the new one is even higher. There is also a coach there that has a reputation on helping kids get into college, somewhere. He even helped a kid from our current school last year and he's not the coach.
They will not drive him to quit. He loves the game too much and who knows maybe this experience will help with the college coaches he'll have to deal with. I'm thinking about buying him a book on How to win friends and influence people. Maybe it would help him deal with the PC BS.
We all have to remember it's just a game and that goes for parents, coaches, players.
Agreed. And that was part of the discussion. There is no promise that things will be better anywhere else. This will be his last chance really to move. After this he would have to sit out half the season as a junior. So it is do it now or live with what you got. Friends and his mom were the 2 deciding factors last night. Although while his school is rated high academically the new one is even higher. There is also a coach there that has a reputation on helping kids get into college, somewhere. He even helped a kid from our current school last year and he's not the coach.
They will not drive him to quit. He loves the game too much and who knows maybe this experience will help with the college coaches he'll have to deal with. I'm thinking about buying him a book on How to win friends and influence people. Maybe it would help him deal with the PC BS.
We all have to remember it's just a game and that goes for parents, coaches, players.
I can only speak for our situation. My son who signed his baseball NLI came very close to skipping his senior year this year because his coach is one of the bad ones. I hope bad coaches are rare but for his high school he is one for one. It's worse now that he has played for some top flight summer and college coaches and can really see the problem.Kids quit in droves and the team consequently is always at the bottom. I think he is just playing so he can rub it in as much as he can, I.E. "I, who you treated with disrespect and rudeness am now going to play in college while your kid and his friends who you always gave the gravy to are playing their last year ever"
I think it will be fun for him and maybe open up this coaches eyes that you can't write kids off that are sitting on your bench but actually might be more talented than you think and maybe you are not the judge of talent you think you are. The sad thing is all the ones that quit.
Haveing coached for many years it's not that hard to make guys want to return even if they are not starters, just make sure you treat them all as you would want your son treated. Give them respect, encouragement, and treat their personal goals as important.
I think it will be fun for him and maybe open up this coaches eyes that you can't write kids off that are sitting on your bench but actually might be more talented than you think and maybe you are not the judge of talent you think you are. The sad thing is all the ones that quit.
Haveing coached for many years it's not that hard to make guys want to return even if they are not starters, just make sure you treat them all as you would want your son treated. Give them respect, encouragement, and treat their personal goals as important.
TPM - when you say PC you mean politically correct - is that right?
I hate to say that if bb1's son transfers he will just face the same stuff. It is possible and the bad coaches do exist but I just hate to think it's that bad all over the US. Maybe I am just naieve or got my head buried in the sand but I just don't think it's that bad.
I feel that I don't play favorites and that I play the best 9 regardless of who you are who your parents are or whatever. I don't care. If your son is good he plays - if he doesn't he sits the bench and we work on it to try to make him better or he gets cut. Not all coaches are like that.
However I can guarantee you that I have had guys who played for me that do say I play favorites or I picked on them or whatever. Every single coach in the world is accused of this.
Sometimes that accusation follows a coach unfairly.
As for TW's post here is how I took it and if I took wrong then I apologize. I felt TW was criticizing us, the posters, for saying these kids who quit are quitters and losers. I also felt he was criticizing us because we didn't realize kids have been the same for the past 20 years.
I do not remember reading a post where someone said this kid or any kid was a loser / quitter for not coming out.
Once again - if I am wrong then I apologize.
I hate to say that if bb1's son transfers he will just face the same stuff. It is possible and the bad coaches do exist but I just hate to think it's that bad all over the US. Maybe I am just naieve or got my head buried in the sand but I just don't think it's that bad.
I feel that I don't play favorites and that I play the best 9 regardless of who you are who your parents are or whatever. I don't care. If your son is good he plays - if he doesn't he sits the bench and we work on it to try to make him better or he gets cut. Not all coaches are like that.
However I can guarantee you that I have had guys who played for me that do say I play favorites or I picked on them or whatever. Every single coach in the world is accused of this.
Sometimes that accusation follows a coach unfairly.
As for TW's post here is how I took it and if I took wrong then I apologize. I felt TW was criticizing us, the posters, for saying these kids who quit are quitters and losers. I also felt he was criticizing us because we didn't realize kids have been the same for the past 20 years.
I do not remember reading a post where someone said this kid or any kid was a loser / quitter for not coming out.
Once again - if I am wrong then I apologize.
Coach2709
If this was about playing time it would be easy. It has nothing to do with playing time. He played almost every inning of every game last year. They know he can play. The only time he sat was after pitching but that's a separate issue and many people feel strongly one way or another. To me it was just an excuse.
Why would the ace not come out? I'm sure he's getting his playing time.
If we knew it would be better somewhere else it would be a no brainer but there are no guarantees.
Tonight I could tell my son was down after throwing and it's not like him. It weighs on him when the coach says, you're too competitive,WHAT!
You won't play varsity until I say so, well that's true he has to be recommended but why say it as a threat.
There's a lot more but I think you get the gist of it.
It's not fun right now and it should be. He should be playing with his friends, getting better, dreaming of hitting the grand slam to win the world series. He shouldn't have to put up with all the PC & BS that he does. It's just not right, it's a game. I threw wiffle ball golf balls to him in the basement to cheer him up. It was fun.
If this was about playing time it would be easy. It has nothing to do with playing time. He played almost every inning of every game last year. They know he can play. The only time he sat was after pitching but that's a separate issue and many people feel strongly one way or another. To me it was just an excuse.
Why would the ace not come out? I'm sure he's getting his playing time.
If we knew it would be better somewhere else it would be a no brainer but there are no guarantees.
Tonight I could tell my son was down after throwing and it's not like him. It weighs on him when the coach says, you're too competitive,WHAT!
You won't play varsity until I say so, well that's true he has to be recommended but why say it as a threat.
There's a lot more but I think you get the gist of it.
It's not fun right now and it should be. He should be playing with his friends, getting better, dreaming of hitting the grand slam to win the world series. He shouldn't have to put up with all the PC & BS that he does. It's just not right, it's a game. I threw wiffle ball golf balls to him in the basement to cheer him up. It was fun.
bb1 I was actually speaking more about how TPM said that regardless of if your son transferred he would be playing for another bad coach. I just want to hold out hope that there are more better ones than that. I do see where she is coming from though in that there are terrible coaches and from what you say it sounds like your son has one.
I can see a coach saying someone is "too competitive" if they have trouble controlling their emotions and play out of control but I would rather see that and fix that than to see a kid who doesn't care. I don't know what your son's coach is trying to get at.
I can see a coach saying you won't play varsity until I say so if he has a guy who is a bum or lazy - maybe.... Granted it's not the best thing to say because there are other ways to try and motivate. I don't know really.
Is this a guy who yells and screams at mistakes but never says (regardless of tone, voice, volume etc...) "ok we messed up on this - this is how we fix it" or when the team plays bad "YOU guys messed up" but when the team wins "WE did such a good job"? I see a lot of young coaches do stuff like this - I even did it myself - because somewhere at sometime they saw a coach do this and it made an impression on them. You can yell and scream as a coach IF you back it up with instruction but to yell and scream all the time on mistakes then you get tuned out. I think this goes back to the original topic of why guys quit (not saying Trojan Skipper does this - I would bet money he doesn't).
When you said he sat after pitching - are you saying he did not play the day after a pitching performance? I would have to agree with that (only way he would play is as DH) because the body isn't ready to play the next day - or if you do there is a greater tendency for a breakdown later in the season. Please clarify that one.
I'm not defending your son's coach because he possibly is wrong but I just don't want to accept or believe more times than not if you transfer you end up with a coach just as bad.
I can see a coach saying someone is "too competitive" if they have trouble controlling their emotions and play out of control but I would rather see that and fix that than to see a kid who doesn't care. I don't know what your son's coach is trying to get at.
I can see a coach saying you won't play varsity until I say so if he has a guy who is a bum or lazy - maybe.... Granted it's not the best thing to say because there are other ways to try and motivate. I don't know really.
Is this a guy who yells and screams at mistakes but never says (regardless of tone, voice, volume etc...) "ok we messed up on this - this is how we fix it" or when the team plays bad "YOU guys messed up" but when the team wins "WE did such a good job"? I see a lot of young coaches do stuff like this - I even did it myself - because somewhere at sometime they saw a coach do this and it made an impression on them. You can yell and scream as a coach IF you back it up with instruction but to yell and scream all the time on mistakes then you get tuned out. I think this goes back to the original topic of why guys quit (not saying Trojan Skipper does this - I would bet money he doesn't).
When you said he sat after pitching - are you saying he did not play the day after a pitching performance? I would have to agree with that (only way he would play is as DH) because the body isn't ready to play the next day - or if you do there is a greater tendency for a breakdown later in the season. Please clarify that one.
I'm not defending your son's coach because he possibly is wrong but I just don't want to accept or believe more times than not if you transfer you end up with a coach just as bad.
Coach2709
I absolutely agree that it might not be better somewhere else. To me transferring is running away. It's easy to say just work through it, ignore it and have fun. There is always going to be some BS so deal with it. Some kids would give up. However, when it seems like they are trying to break his spirit and drive to succeed what do you do? That is probably what bothers me the most. If it was a job he'd be looking for a new one and leave and be giving his 2 week notice.
He has never had problems with emotions as a matter of fact sometimes he's too calm in my opinion. So to say you're too competitive when there are kids that could careless and are out to socialize just boggles my mind. His coach last year, same school just a week or two ago said to me at a meeting" I see him as a bulldog". Never giving up and always wanting the ball, hates to lose. Winners always do.
This is the JV coach and we're wondering maybe he's getting pressure from higher up to say this kid is ready. We don't know.
As far as yelling and screaming, he's known more as a guy who doesn't have control. Kids just messing around and not even watching the game. I know of one kid last summer who didn't want to play there for that reason. I have never seen him take the credit and not the blame for a win or loss but there haven't been enough yet to make a decision on that.
We'll just have to disagree on sitting after pitching. Sometimes maybe depending on pitch count.
This started as a post on the ace not coming out and as I read things, I can't help but wonder if the ace's spirit hasn't been broken. I doubt by Trojanskipper but maybe a parent,maybe a close friend who wouldn't make the cut, maybe a girl or how about problems at home? We just don't know.
I absolutely agree that it might not be better somewhere else. To me transferring is running away. It's easy to say just work through it, ignore it and have fun. There is always going to be some BS so deal with it. Some kids would give up. However, when it seems like they are trying to break his spirit and drive to succeed what do you do? That is probably what bothers me the most. If it was a job he'd be looking for a new one and leave and be giving his 2 week notice.
He has never had problems with emotions as a matter of fact sometimes he's too calm in my opinion. So to say you're too competitive when there are kids that could careless and are out to socialize just boggles my mind. His coach last year, same school just a week or two ago said to me at a meeting" I see him as a bulldog". Never giving up and always wanting the ball, hates to lose. Winners always do.
This is the JV coach and we're wondering maybe he's getting pressure from higher up to say this kid is ready. We don't know.
As far as yelling and screaming, he's known more as a guy who doesn't have control. Kids just messing around and not even watching the game. I know of one kid last summer who didn't want to play there for that reason. I have never seen him take the credit and not the blame for a win or loss but there haven't been enough yet to make a decision on that.
We'll just have to disagree on sitting after pitching. Sometimes maybe depending on pitch count.
This started as a post on the ace not coming out and as I read things, I can't help but wonder if the ace's spirit hasn't been broken. I doubt by Trojanskipper but maybe a parent,maybe a close friend who wouldn't make the cut, maybe a girl or how about problems at home? We just don't know.
It is not an uncommon experience for seniors to bypass final year of BB. They see the end of HS and the beginning of a new life, they may want to spend time during other things (spring break), jobs, cars, girls, etc. Unless they are dedicated to the game and the program they may opt out. This is better then having them participating without commitment and quitting during the season.
Well, this has been an interesting topic for y'all.
1. The kid is a good kid. He's a good student/athlete who's favorite sport is basketball, follwed by football and then there we are at number three.
2. We've always gotten along great, I had his older brother too and there's no friction.
3. He started as a soph and jr (19-3 and 16-5 was our records so I don't think anybody sees it as a loser's outfit)
4. It's just a bummer when a really good player and a really good kid doesn't want to play and as the coach... it feels like a nice one that got away.
5. I'm more than willing to work with the guy(s) who will now get the opportunity his absence will create.
1. The kid is a good kid. He's a good student/athlete who's favorite sport is basketball, follwed by football and then there we are at number three.
2. We've always gotten along great, I had his older brother too and there's no friction.
3. He started as a soph and jr (19-3 and 16-5 was our records so I don't think anybody sees it as a loser's outfit)
4. It's just a bummer when a really good player and a really good kid doesn't want to play and as the coach... it feels like a nice one that got away.
5. I'm more than willing to work with the guy(s) who will now get the opportunity his absence will create.
My son gave up basketball which was pretty easy as a distant second. The coach wanted him to play summer basketball and even suggested he could miss some baseball games. That is when the decision was made. Since basketball is the first love I can kind of understand. They play and train pretty much year round now. Sad because there aren't a lot of 3 sport athletes anymore.
I totally understand kids not coming out because their priorities are different and baseball is not the top of their list. I did that myself. Didn't play basketball to work out and get ready for baseball. My point is the kids who do not come out for the team their Junior years when they would not play and then decide to play their senior seasons because they think they'll be able to play.
Coach,
I never said the coach was bad, did I? Actually I think that you are right in what you have psoted.
Thanks for bringing to my attention a bout the PC, I really meant politics. We have to admit there's lots of politics and BS in this game and it happens everywhere. As a player and a parent of a player you need to put it aside, because you are going to see that at every level that he plays.
I am not really understanding bb1's issues, maybe it's me.
His son played every game, he has to sit the bench after her pitches, he is upset the coach called his son too competitive? Are we talking waoubt teh JV or teh varisty coach? Are these things he is saying heard by you or repeated by your son? Is he being to sensitive to any comments? bb1, it seems to me that there are things that you want that aren't happening, and that is part of the frustration.
I too didn't mean to get off of the topic but understood why it was brought up. Some kids just quit because they or their parents do not care for the coach.
bb1 is I am way off base, I am sorry but I just don't understand your son's dilemma.
I never said the coach was bad, did I? Actually I think that you are right in what you have psoted.
Thanks for bringing to my attention a bout the PC, I really meant politics. We have to admit there's lots of politics and BS in this game and it happens everywhere. As a player and a parent of a player you need to put it aside, because you are going to see that at every level that he plays.
I am not really understanding bb1's issues, maybe it's me.
I too didn't mean to get off of the topic but understood why it was brought up. Some kids just quit because they or their parents do not care for the coach.
bb1 is I am way off base, I am sorry but I just don't understand your son's dilemma.
quote:Originally posted by coachbwww:quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
It is also a lesson for life. The best get paid the best. Hard work and dedication is necessary in all aspects of life, but you have to have the talent and produce first. If someone is better than you, you either accept, or make yourself better. There aren't any other choices in life.
"
I wish every LL coach understand this! Do you think there should be some differences between coaching HS and coaching LL on this specific topic? I've never coached any kids over 14.
Coaching high school baseball is waaaaaay different than coaching little league. Little League the most important thing should be having fun! High School baseball it's important to have fun, but it's also important to win. Personally, winning is what makes baseball fun! I know I did not really enjoy my senior year in high school not because I wasn't playing as much as I'd like, but because our team was downright bad.
TPM
I don't really know how to explain but when a kid comes home from "optional workouts" basically in tears.This is a kid who never once before HS had a problem with a coach, never. I wasn't there and some things we talked about and after doing that it made more sense to him. Other things just don't. He is a bright, sensitive, no garbage kid and maybe takes things too personally sometimes. However, a coach needs to know what kids he may need to motivate, what kids motivate themselves and somethings you can say to one and not others. At the end of one of those days he let us know he was on his way home and I could hear it in his voice something was wrong. He came in, tears in his eyes saying I want out. This is a practice and optional.
Part of the problem is they want "cookie cutter" players. Throw nothing but 2 pitches (2seam and change). He throws a 4 seam can throw a 2 and his strike out pitch is a curve not a change.
A pitcher must step to the side in his motion not back. He knows this is wrong for him and will not make that change. Yet last year and this they keep trying. He was 7-0 last spring with 62K's in 36+ innings.
They workout before and after school 2 days a week. he hasn't missed a one. Unlike many other kids who skip one or the other. Maybe he should but he won't, it means too much.
As I talk the problem is coaches that want to fix things that are not broken. He produces at the plate and on the mound. He is the only full lefty in the whole program (bats left, throws left). Has been taught to sit FB and adjust to the change which he does real well because he stays back. Yet in the cage, not against live pitching they compared him to a kid who signed with GT last year. The kid was great but struggled against off speed stuff. They actually asked another kid what he saw and he said " can't hit the change". He never has and never will struggle against off speed stuff.
Last year in a JV game, against a kid with 13k's, he was 3 for 3 with 2 singles and a double. You know what the kid was striking kids out on, curves.
Most pitchers you see are right handed, he's a lefty it all comes right to him.
I'm not sure this makes any sense but as I posted before a good friend/scout exact word to me were just a day or two ago " they will either hurt him or break him". Neither works for me.
I don't really know how to explain but when a kid comes home from "optional workouts" basically in tears.This is a kid who never once before HS had a problem with a coach, never. I wasn't there and some things we talked about and after doing that it made more sense to him. Other things just don't. He is a bright, sensitive, no garbage kid and maybe takes things too personally sometimes. However, a coach needs to know what kids he may need to motivate, what kids motivate themselves and somethings you can say to one and not others. At the end of one of those days he let us know he was on his way home and I could hear it in his voice something was wrong. He came in, tears in his eyes saying I want out. This is a practice and optional.
Part of the problem is they want "cookie cutter" players. Throw nothing but 2 pitches (2seam and change). He throws a 4 seam can throw a 2 and his strike out pitch is a curve not a change.
A pitcher must step to the side in his motion not back. He knows this is wrong for him and will not make that change. Yet last year and this they keep trying. He was 7-0 last spring with 62K's in 36+ innings.
They workout before and after school 2 days a week. he hasn't missed a one. Unlike many other kids who skip one or the other. Maybe he should but he won't, it means too much.
As I talk the problem is coaches that want to fix things that are not broken. He produces at the plate and on the mound. He is the only full lefty in the whole program (bats left, throws left). Has been taught to sit FB and adjust to the change which he does real well because he stays back. Yet in the cage, not against live pitching they compared him to a kid who signed with GT last year. The kid was great but struggled against off speed stuff. They actually asked another kid what he saw and he said " can't hit the change". He never has and never will struggle against off speed stuff.
Last year in a JV game, against a kid with 13k's, he was 3 for 3 with 2 singles and a double. You know what the kid was striking kids out on, curves.
Most pitchers you see are right handed, he's a lefty it all comes right to him.
I'm not sure this makes any sense but as I posted before a good friend/scout exact word to me were just a day or two ago " they will either hurt him or break him". Neither works for me.
bb1,
He sounds frustrated because they are not letting him do what he wants to do? I think I get it now. Seems they might be trying to make corrections and he is resisting? And he is crying to you because he knows he gets your sympathy. They may be trying to prepare him for the next step (varsity or college) and he is not letting them, that's not good. Sounds like he is relying on his curve for success, not good, he MUST develop the change up as well as his 2 seam, you can't live on a 4 seam. Fb and change best for arm. He likes the 4 because it's faster? Does his FB have movement? He may produce now but won't later on. In fact keep throwing those curves and you might have problems sooner or later.
Coachability is very important.
What are you going to do when he goes off to college someday and he calls to tell you they are changing his whole delivery and his approach at the plate?
BTW, all his pitches should be thrown for strikes, not just the CB.
He sounds frustrated because they are not letting him do what he wants to do? I think I get it now. Seems they might be trying to make corrections and he is resisting? And he is crying to you because he knows he gets your sympathy. They may be trying to prepare him for the next step (varsity or college) and he is not letting them, that's not good. Sounds like he is relying on his curve for success, not good, he MUST develop the change up as well as his 2 seam, you can't live on a 4 seam. Fb and change best for arm. He likes the 4 because it's faster? Does his FB have movement? He may produce now but won't later on. In fact keep throwing those curves and you might have problems sooner or later.
Coachability is very important.
What are you going to do when he goes off to college someday and he calls to tell you they are changing his whole delivery and his approach at the plate?
BTW, all his pitches should be thrown for strikes, not just the CB.
Agreed that coachability is extremely important. Actually part of the discussion we had was that this will happen in college and everywhere you may play and you need to be able to handle it. You can't run away.
The problem comes when he knows unfortunately that these coaches are football guys. When instead of working with a kid to refine what he already has they try and make every kid the same. Do everything the same way. COACH ONE WAY. Every kid is not the same. Just like a player needs to keep evolving so do coaches and they've stopped.
He needs to learn how to get the coaches on his side. He worked on the 2 seam last year as instructed and became very good at it. I think I miss spoke a little about the curve as I think about it. The K's were probably more 4 seams, then 2 seams, then curves. It is just the curves you remember because many times they are not in the strike zone. I would agree you have to be able to throw all your pitches for strikes but it is the good pitchers that are able to expand the strike zone to get hitters swinging at ptiches out of the zone. Movement has never been a problem.
We know of some kids who quit, some kids that transferred and some that went somewhere else from the start. The ones that transferred and those that went somewhere else are among the best players in the area.
I look at it as a learning experience and he will be better off as a person at least for having gone through it and even better if he learns to handle it.
The problem comes when he knows unfortunately that these coaches are football guys. When instead of working with a kid to refine what he already has they try and make every kid the same. Do everything the same way. COACH ONE WAY. Every kid is not the same. Just like a player needs to keep evolving so do coaches and they've stopped.
He needs to learn how to get the coaches on his side. He worked on the 2 seam last year as instructed and became very good at it. I think I miss spoke a little about the curve as I think about it. The K's were probably more 4 seams, then 2 seams, then curves. It is just the curves you remember because many times they are not in the strike zone. I would agree you have to be able to throw all your pitches for strikes but it is the good pitchers that are able to expand the strike zone to get hitters swinging at ptiches out of the zone. Movement has never been a problem.
We know of some kids who quit, some kids that transferred and some that went somewhere else from the start. The ones that transferred and those that went somewhere else are among the best players in the area.
I look at it as a learning experience and he will be better off as a person at least for having gone through it and even better if he learns to handle it.
