It was never my intention to bring this kid up in that light, but to show the huge difference in stats from his home website and digital sports. Plus I know someone who sat in on that meeting and "things" were said...
As far as your comment on Rbi's, do you here yourself. My boy hit in the 3 hole all year and was carefully pitched too, when he was pitched too, everything he got, he earned. Even his own teammate( who hit .565 )batted mostly in the 6 or 7 hole. Do you think those 2 guys are pitched to the same?
I agree with you on the process and method of how this team is chosen should be under review. I'm sure there will never be a FAIR way to decide this, but just try and recognize that it was never my intention to call out an individual, but rather shine a light on something that always happens to a great kid.
Patriotballer - yes, I see the disparity you were pointing out. I don't understand it either. I have a lot to learn about how this stuff works.
I see that there are offensive stats - but no defensive stats. I guess this is too hard to record correctly in HS baseball?? Pitchers era's are also helped by excellent defense... stats can be deceiving.
Some things don't work in written posts - if we were having a conversation, it would be easy to clarify things.
No, I don't hear what I'm saying with RBI's - sorry. Please tell me where the holes are in my reasoning - really - I want to know what I'm missing. I'm kind of new to baseball analysis - so I will definitley stand corrected if you enlighten me. I'm serious - actually trying to learn more here. I was trying to say that a team of excellent hitters/base runners would afford the 3d or 4th hole hitter much more opportunity for RBIs simply because there is a higher chance they are on base and in scoring position when the 3/4 hitter gets to the plate to do their damage. Is what I said off base?
I do think I understand what you are saying about hitting in the 3 hole getting pitched to differently than the one in the 6/7 hole. The coaches will call for the pitcher's best stuff? Is that what you mean? I definitely don't want to argue - just understand and learn.
I see that there are offensive stats - but no defensive stats. I guess this is too hard to record correctly in HS baseball?? Pitchers era's are also helped by excellent defense... stats can be deceiving.
Some things don't work in written posts - if we were having a conversation, it would be easy to clarify things.
No, I don't hear what I'm saying with RBI's - sorry. Please tell me where the holes are in my reasoning - really - I want to know what I'm missing. I'm kind of new to baseball analysis - so I will definitley stand corrected if you enlighten me. I'm serious - actually trying to learn more here. I was trying to say that a team of excellent hitters/base runners would afford the 3d or 4th hole hitter much more opportunity for RBIs simply because there is a higher chance they are on base and in scoring position when the 3/4 hitter gets to the plate to do their damage. Is what I said off base?
I do think I understand what you are saying about hitting in the 3 hole getting pitched to differently than the one in the 6/7 hole. The coaches will call for the pitcher's best stuff? Is that what you mean? I definitely don't want to argue - just understand and learn.
Trust me PichrsParent you don't want to learn any of this stuff, it will only drive you crazy. BTW, Congrats on your son making the all-region team. As far as the rbi thing goes, a 3 hole hitter is put in that situation because he is the best hitter,not only for driving in runs but manufacturing runs himself(homers). you are correct about having better players in front of him getting on base more frequently, but don't you think the better teams are better because of the better players getting on base...Nobody should be penalized for doing their job, regardless of how many oppurtunities they have.
I don't want to argue either, I'm just trying to understand the slap in the face my son received after a great season of leading the region in homers and rbi's...Good luck to you and your son...
I don't want to argue either, I'm just trying to understand the slap in the face my son received after a great season of leading the region in homers and rbi's...Good luck to you and your son...
I don't think defense is a serious consideration for making the district and regional teams.
but the point is a valid one.
My son isn't all-region. It sure sounds like yours should have been.
I am curious as to how those kids are selected. All I know is that all of the coaches vote.
Hope you get some answers.
My best to your son - sounds like he's on track to play baseball in College - congrats!
I am curious as to how those kids are selected. All I know is that all of the coaches vote.
Hope you get some answers.
My best to your son - sounds like he's on track to play baseball in College - congrats!
I believe defense should be an equal part of the selection process, but I don't think it is considered.
I definitely think defense should be part of the selection process. I can tell you, one of the selections had double digit numbers in errors with multiple errors in many games. Good thing he could hit.
Novaball - do your mean double digits errors and on first team? All district? All Region?
I happen to know that they(Coaches) do consider defense as well as offense - I know players that were not considered because of their glove.
I happen to know that they(Coaches) do consider defense as well as offense - I know players that were not considered because of their glove.
The stats for all the first team players in the NR are posted on Va Preps. These stats are provided by the coaches as input into the process as well as going forward for those selected upon to move on to All State team balloting.
There are many players every year who are as deserving as some who get left off the list. At least, in our area, there is the all met teams and the all journal teams. These give some deserving kids other chances for recognition.
The difficult part of the process is the naming of kids from across each of the districts. I could start a real fight by asking if a Kyle Toulouse would have had the kind of year he did in another district? What kind of numbers would many other Concorde, Liberty, or Patriot kids have had if they played in the tiny Yorktown ball park and played so many games against weak sisters of the National District. Does anybody really think this kid would steal 25 bases against real pitchers and catchers in other districts? What did he do in leading his team to a 1-11 shellacking last night by TC Williams. Maybe he got 3 hits, I don't know, but they still got hammered. Do McLean's 3 kids on first team -- Payne, Biero, and Fitzgerald -- really deserve it. Who knows, but McLean is now done for the year, mustering a goose egg last night. This type of debate and subjective banter could go on and on with no real way to settle perceptions.
The best way to get votes is for you to have a great season, and your team to win your district. That is the surest fire method, because those coaches whose teams won do get the benefit of the doubt, when coaches are advocating for their players at vote time.
In the final analysis, it doesn't really mean that much. The kids know who played well. The coaches, know, the college scouts know. It may be one thing for a middle of the road kid to get some recognition that might help open a door or two when others aren't opening already, but for the type of players being discussed on this thread (Toulouse, Payne, Fitzgerald, Biero, Digby and more included), they are all talented and well known.
There are many players every year who are as deserving as some who get left off the list. At least, in our area, there is the all met teams and the all journal teams. These give some deserving kids other chances for recognition.
The difficult part of the process is the naming of kids from across each of the districts. I could start a real fight by asking if a Kyle Toulouse would have had the kind of year he did in another district? What kind of numbers would many other Concorde, Liberty, or Patriot kids have had if they played in the tiny Yorktown ball park and played so many games against weak sisters of the National District. Does anybody really think this kid would steal 25 bases against real pitchers and catchers in other districts? What did he do in leading his team to a 1-11 shellacking last night by TC Williams. Maybe he got 3 hits, I don't know, but they still got hammered. Do McLean's 3 kids on first team -- Payne, Biero, and Fitzgerald -- really deserve it. Who knows, but McLean is now done for the year, mustering a goose egg last night. This type of debate and subjective banter could go on and on with no real way to settle perceptions.
The best way to get votes is for you to have a great season, and your team to win your district. That is the surest fire method, because those coaches whose teams won do get the benefit of the doubt, when coaches are advocating for their players at vote time.
In the final analysis, it doesn't really mean that much. The kids know who played well. The coaches, know, the college scouts know. It may be one thing for a middle of the road kid to get some recognition that might help open a door or two when others aren't opening already, but for the type of players being discussed on this thread (Toulouse, Payne, Fitzgerald, Biero, Digby and more included), they are all talented and well known.
ball4, Yes to all your questions.
All Northern Region 1st and 2nd Team listed
Digital Sports:
http://www.digitalsports.com/a...03/typeid/13428.aspx
Ignore the stats listed for league leaders on this site - only a few HS's reported there.
Va Preps ~ I can't see because I'm not a paying member:
http://virginiapreps.rivals.com/default.asp?type=6
Would hope this would be printed in the Wash Post or local Connection as well.
Digital Sports:
http://www.digitalsports.com/a...03/typeid/13428.aspx
Ignore the stats listed for league leaders on this site - only a few HS's reported there.
Va Preps ~ I can't see because I'm not a paying member:
http://virginiapreps.rivals.com/default.asp?type=6
Would hope this would be printed in the Wash Post or local Connection as well.
Superball - excellent analysis
My uncle used to say, "I'd rather be a big fish in a little pond"
Which is what I think you described.
With that - I know that Toulouse is quite a player so disrespect to him.
My uncle used to say, "I'd rather be a big fish in a little pond"
Which is what I think you described.
With that - I know that Toulouse is quite a player so disrespect to him.
sorry - so no disrespect to him - my typing is terible -- terrible.
Superball...well said, best written segment yet..I wish it helped! Novabball I agree that defense should be part of the selection process, was the errorprone all-region guy an outfielder? If so, this is another arguement for Digby...10 put-outs in the district final against WS, robbing Renner of a game winning homer in the bottom of the 14th..Clearly the best all around player in the district...I just keep getting more angry with his coach everyday. Superball you are right however, in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter, but it still ****es me off!
Superball -- you've said it all; well done. As for "snubs" of players, as you said, there are plenty of guys who got snubbed, and many of the arguments being made for Digby could also be made for other players on other teams. In the end, it's just HS baseball; nobody's going to ask the kids who made 2nd team all-NR why they didn't make 1st team. Every one of these guys was selected as 1st team all-district, which is saying quite a lot when you think about the strengths of the players across these districts. And in the end, whether they were 1st team, 2nd team or honorable mention, it won't matter -- these kids will all go on to do great things in life, and will look back on their day in the sun with good memories, and that's all that matters...
Well said 
Patriotballer - You may want to take a deep breath before blasting Coach Luther. Nothing good will come out of it. IMHO - I would ask for him to explain the proceedure. Are you sure he didn't vote for Digby? Does GPA have anything to do with it? I don't know. Maybe other coaches did not vote for him because it would knock their player out of contention. Who knows?
But blasting him here and in person, is not prudent.
But blasting him here and in person, is not prudent.
Superball does make good points but it may be unfair to make points about Toulouse or Yorktown based on Yorktown's loss to TC. Does anyone seriously believe that, given the events at Yorktown last week (most of the discussion of which has been removed from the northern region tournament topic), the Yorktown team that lost to TC Friday night was anywhere near what it would have been had those events not happened? One of the tragedies from those events is that an opportunity may have been lost to see how good Toulouse and Yorktown really were.
(By the way, the score was 7-1, not 11-1, and it was 4-1 going into the 6th. Kyle was 0 for 3.)
(By the way, the score was 7-1, not 11-1, and it was 4-1 going into the 6th. Kyle was 0 for 3.)
I'm not blasting him, trust me you'd know if I was blasting him....I feel he didn't do enough, if it had been different players or different years he'd have gone after people to get it done. I don't think he ever thought my boy was any good and he definitely thought guys on this team were better...I've known Mark for over 30 years, can anybody say that about their head coach. I feel I can get away with saying certain things that most of you would be way to scared to say to your head coach.
I'd really like to put this to rest now, I know I started it but like alot of people said already, it doesn't matter in the long run. I just hope that everyone is as passionate about their kids as I am about mine and that you would do anything for them if you thought they weren't getting a fair shake...Peace and Love as my brother used to say...
I'd really like to put this to rest now, I know I started it but like alot of people said already, it doesn't matter in the long run. I just hope that everyone is as passionate about their kids as I am about mine and that you would do anything for them if you thought they weren't getting a fair shake...Peace and Love as my brother used to say...
Don't know what happened at Yorktown last week. Do know that Toulouse is a talented athlete. Also know, that baseball players from the weaker "sister" schools (losing seasons year after year) in the national district have played in college and been successful on rock solid D3 teams. Just because a player is racking up stats in a weak district, doesn't mean they wouldn't also shine with a great defense behind them (assuming they were a pitcher).
Yorktown had a player last year go largely unheralded in the all-region selections as far as I know. Yet he walked on to the UVA baseball team. To me that is more impressive than being selected first team all-region utility player or second base or whatever. If you can hit or pitch, when you get to college the coach really won't care if you hailed from the national district....
Yorktown had a player last year go largely unheralded in the all-region selections as far as I know. Yet he walked on to the UVA baseball team. To me that is more impressive than being selected first team all-region utility player or second base or whatever. If you can hit or pitch, when you get to college the coach really won't care if you hailed from the national district....
so many great opinions, is everyone right? Where do we go from here? I guess we'll just have to wait until Monday....
Patriotballer, infielder........from my source you had a front row seat to all the errors.
Brewball -
Toulouse was amazing - snagged a ball at least 2 ft over his head - pitched faster then most of TC boys have seen. He is a great player and had a great game defensively. I think had he pitched first it would have made the game very interesting.
The rest of the team hit fly balls all night. In fact, TC OFielders were busy all night without much effort. I'm certain it was an uncomfortable outing - for Yorktown, but, who knows how they feel about their coach. All I know is they were swinging for the fences and should have played small ball.
Toulouse was amazing - snagged a ball at least 2 ft over his head - pitched faster then most of TC boys have seen. He is a great player and had a great game defensively. I think had he pitched first it would have made the game very interesting.
The rest of the team hit fly balls all night. In fact, TC OFielders were busy all night without much effort. I'm certain it was an uncomfortable outing - for Yorktown, but, who knows how they feel about their coach. All I know is they were swinging for the fences and should have played small ball.
Titanstonight - Nice of you to mention that about Kyle. He's a heckuva player and it's hard to think of him not playing baseball anymore, but it looks like that will be the case as he's going to Holy Cross on a football scholarship to play wide receiver.
Your team was well-prepared and played great on Friday, and my remarks aren't intended to detract from that. Best wishes as you move on.
Your team was well-prepared and played great on Friday, and my remarks aren't intended to detract from that. Best wishes as you move on.
no offense taken
The kid is good and he proved so in a difficult situation.
The kid is good and he proved so in a difficult situation.
quote:Originally posted by brewball:
Titanstonight - Nice of you to mention that about Kyle. He's a heckuva player and it's hard to think of him not playing baseball anymore, but it looks like that will be the case as he's going to Holy Cross on a football scholarship to play wide receiver.
When did Patriot League schools start offering athletic scholarships?
Can anyone comment on what the 'situation' was that occurred at Yorktown?? I can't seem to find any coverage of it in the local papers. Did this incident occur at the game or before the game. It sounds as though they did not have their full complement of players?? I'm not looking for details necessarily, just would like to know what happened in general terms.
Novabball the player you are speaking of did struggle early both at the plate and in the field, but he made a marked improvement over the course of the season both offensively and defensively and was deserving of the selection imo...
Novabball the player you are speaking of did struggle early both at the plate and in the field, but he made a marked improvement over the course of the season both offensively and defensively and was deserving of the selection imo...
Novabball, I was aware it was that kid. Trust me that kid is a stud and he deserves all the awards he gets. I especially love all his antics on the field, he reminds me alot of myself back in the day.
Patriot, as I said, you had a first hand look at this player and I won't even question your opinion. I was just commenting on the original question as to whether "defense" was considered in the selection criteria. I didn't think so based on what was passed on to me. I should have verified the infomation passed on to me.
It says a lot that the player improved all season and most of the errors were early. Sounds like he did deserve the award.
It says a lot that the player improved all season and most of the errors were early. Sounds like he did deserve the award.
MajorDad - Wikipedia says Patriot League started giving athletic scholarships a few years ago. But I guess it would be more accurate based on my personal knowledge to say he signed a letter of intent to play football there.
Sorry I brought up the Toulouse case. I was just trying to highlight the absurdities that you could take in debates like this.
BTW, Steve Kouril is a fine player. I remember a Babe Ruth tournament game back in the day. Elimination game. Our team was way up, the Arlington team was coming back and only trailed by 1. Game ended with Kouril on deck and the bases loaded. Kouril was 4-4 on the day and would have loved a chance to win it. Our side let out huge sigh of relief and moved on.
BTW, Steve Kouril is a fine player. I remember a Babe Ruth tournament game back in the day. Elimination game. Our team was way up, the Arlington team was coming back and only trailed by 1. Game ended with Kouril on deck and the bases loaded. Kouril was 4-4 on the day and would have loved a chance to win it. Our side let out huge sigh of relief and moved on.
quote:Originally posted by brewball:
MajorDad - Wikipedia says Patriot League started giving athletic scholarships a few years ago. But I guess it would be more accurate based on my personal knowledge to say he signed a letter of intent to play football there.
That is good to know, thank you.
Congrats to Kyle on the NLI signing.
One thing that would help in the selection process is for both team scorekeepers to meet after the game and come to an agreement as to what were hits vs. errors. Even yesterday at the Westfield/South County game I was in position to see several hits given which would have been scored as errors by me and a few around. This would make the numbers provided by the coaches a little more believable at selection time.
If a kid is lucky enough to be picked for one of these teams, great. Relish it. But if a kid is not, realize it is often no reflection of ability or success. These are combination beauty-political contests. In any given year, there are probably three dozen kids capable of being put on first team All Region. Alot who are selected are deserving. Some may not be more deserving than some who do not make it. Who knows? The stats get inflated by coaches trying to promote their kids. Some kids may not get the support of their coaches for this sort of thing. No college coach or pro scout is going to be persuaded about a kid's talent or potential by his selection or non-selection on a such a team.
Quick note--I have been involved in baseball for 50 years. The standard argument is that the 3/4 hitters always have it so much tougher than other hitters in a lineup because pitchers "bear down," or, "pitch carefully" to them. I have concluded that in many cases, they actually have it easier, at least if they are patient. HS pitchers have trouble hitting spots and often, if "bearing down" or "pitching carefully" to a 3/4 hitter, they dig a hole for themselves. If they then have to come in, they come in. Any good hitter will take advantage of this situation. They take the offensive. Other kids in the order will much less often get to hit from a 2-0 or 3-1 count. Pitchers tend to throw more strikes early in the count against these hitters. Coaches often make them take a strike. They often are hitting out of an 0-1 or 1-2 hole. They are back on the defensive. So, while the 3/4 hitter having it tougher may be true in some cases, it is probably just as often false.
In any case, the beauty-political contests that are All Region and so forth are really not worth the heartache. Don't worry about it. Just play ball.
Quick note--I have been involved in baseball for 50 years. The standard argument is that the 3/4 hitters always have it so much tougher than other hitters in a lineup because pitchers "bear down," or, "pitch carefully" to them. I have concluded that in many cases, they actually have it easier, at least if they are patient. HS pitchers have trouble hitting spots and often, if "bearing down" or "pitching carefully" to a 3/4 hitter, they dig a hole for themselves. If they then have to come in, they come in. Any good hitter will take advantage of this situation. They take the offensive. Other kids in the order will much less often get to hit from a 2-0 or 3-1 count. Pitchers tend to throw more strikes early in the count against these hitters. Coaches often make them take a strike. They often are hitting out of an 0-1 or 1-2 hole. They are back on the defensive. So, while the 3/4 hitter having it tougher may be true in some cases, it is probably just as often false.
In any case, the beauty-political contests that are All Region and so forth are really not worth the heartache. Don't worry about it. Just play ball.
"pitched faster then most of TC boys have seen...I think had he pitched first it would have made the game very interesting"
Although I believe Toulouse is a great player and pitcher, he was definitely not Randy Johnson out there...this team faced Wahl and Kent from WS, two guys who definitely throw harder than Toulouse. Don't forget, they still hit him, scoring 3 runs...
This is not meant to take a stab at Toulouse...just throwing the point out there that the TC kids were clearly not overmatched.
Although I believe Toulouse is a great player and pitcher, he was definitely not Randy Johnson out there...this team faced Wahl and Kent from WS, two guys who definitely throw harder than Toulouse. Don't forget, they still hit him, scoring 3 runs...
This is not meant to take a stab at Toulouse...just throwing the point out there that the TC kids were clearly not overmatched.