American Legion

Respectfully I hope.  PG Events are awesome but there are a few things I don't agree with.   

Question; what will be the major events in 3-5 years? What media will be used?

What # of days preferred by players, scouts, coaches? One field, 2 fields, 4 fields.

Bob

"founder" of the Area Code games

I respectfully and forcefully disagree about your PG comment. Maybe it would have zero impact on your family, maybe even on all the families that you know.  But if you expanded your horizon, you would see that it does have impact.

 

My son would be going to a D1 college without PG but he is going to a D1 which, in his opinion (and his parents), better suits him. Would not of happened without PG.

 

ps: we don't have Legion ball anywhere near us so Legion would do us absolutely no good

I think that's great!  Congratulations, that must be awesome to watch your son play at that level.  I am sure he is an absolute stud.

 

Was the school he is currently playing for a target school before they saw him at a PG Showcase or after they showed interest?  If it was before PG, than was there away for your son to demonstrate his talent without PG?

 

Or was it the other way around?  Did you go through the PG Showcase process to find who was looking and than narrow it down to the best fit?

I am just trying to learn what I don't know or understand. 

Real green:

 

Probably won't get to watch him much since he is so far away.

 

School wasn't even in the horizon, much less a target school, before PG showcase. 

 

The PG showcase, and then subsequent performances after the showcase in several PG events, and his grades opened many doors then he had to weigh the advantages/disadvantages of each school and choose the one that he felt best suited him. 

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

My son played on a very good but not very well known travel team. Four players from his 17U team are now playing pro ball, and one or two others may get the opportunity. Nearly everyone on the team played D1. No superstars. No one projected to reach the majors, but a lot of good, hard working players with good attitudes.

 

Going into the summer before their senior year, only one or two of these players were committed. 

 

That changed when they went to PG's WWBA tournament in East Cobb, won their first four games and faced an undefeated team from a very well known program (they won the big event at Jupiter 3 months later) in the last game of pool play. The winner would advance to the championship bracket.  The loser would probably go home.  Our team shut out the better known team in front of a large herd of college coaches.  

 

After that win, the team won one or two games in the championship bracket before losing 2-0 to a powerhouse team from California.

 

That one week in Georgia got the recruiting ball rolling for nearly everyone on the team. Several players committed that week. Others got invitations to visit schools on their way home. Within a few weeks, nearly everyone on the team was either committed or well on their way to making a decision.

 

This team had played and won lots of local and regional events.  But their on-field success didn't translate into college opportunities until that week at WWBA.

 

My son's experience was typical of what happened on that team that week. When we left home for Georgia, my son had tentative interest but no offer from a D2 that had seen him on Spring Break. That's it.  Then he pitched well in a tournament on the way to Georgia and got some interest from the mid major that had hosted the tournament. Beyond that, he wasn't on anyone else's radar that we were aware of. 

 

He started that final pool play game, pitching 3+ innings. Topped out at 88. Threw about 75% strikes, mostly on the corners. Kept some good hitters off balance.  That's all it took in front of the right people.  He had several coach's business cards before he left the venue. Several phone calls that night. A couple coaches tugged on his elbow as soon as the team was eliminated.  Within a couple weeks, he had visited more schools and had more offers than he had the bandwidth to process.  

 

Don't tell me shutting down PG wouldn't affect players.  I'm not buying that.  My son was already well known locally before he went to the PG event. People knew who he was and they knew he was pretty good.  But he wasn't a big enough deal for people to go out of their way to see him. Coaches aren't going to drive hundreds of miles to see an upper 80's lefty. He had to go where the coaches were gathered and prove he could compete against future college players.

 

And if there hadn't been a PG, legion ball wouldn't have filled the void because, remember, legion doesn't let you choose who you play for.  The post he'd have played for wasn't going to get any attention.

 

The fact of the matter is PG makes the market work better.  

 

Players want to play good competition in front of coaches and scouts.  Coaches and scouts want to see good players play other good players.  Nobody brings them together better than PG. 

 

I didn't need to drink any Kool Aid to realize this.

A number of good discussion points on the thread, which seems to have several offshoots. Eight summary items:

1) American Legion Ball is not consistently strong in all 50 states.

2) Where Legion participation is higher (states), teams are very competitive at the top.

3) Legion has geographic boundary limitations (similar to Little League) whereas Travel Teams' players can cover several states.

4) Cost plays a factor for those who have a chance to play American Legion vs Travel

5) There are current MLB and MiLB players who played AL

6) You can have a player who played AL, and also participated in PG and UA-BF events or showcases. For each of these, he is an "alum"

7) Coaches will go to see players play, with whom they have strong interest.(Though players need to take initiative too)

8) Everyone's recruiting journey is different.

Son had multiple D1 offers. Looking back and putting a percentage on the impact/value of his recruitment interest, I would say:

American Legion: 85%

Showcases, camps, recruiting services 14%,

High School 1% 

Excellent post.

real green,

FWIW, the recruiting coach at sons school first saw him play at a PG event, where he hit 90+. That coach's program was about 800 miles away.  That was over a decade ago, that event put him on the map and exposed him to a top 25 program from a different state that appealed to him much more than other programs from our state. This exposure also helps other players, perhaps known locally but not necessarily on a broader geographical scale. So, IMO, not much seems to have changed, players want to attend PG events for the same reasons they did when PG was first starting out, good competition as well as good exposure.

 

I am not going to speak negatively towards AL. But they, along with many others, do not provide a venue  that is provided by PG nor will they ever, no matter what part of the country you come from.  

Unless one really understands how PG can affect a players EXPOSURE, I suggest a little more research on your part.

Then maybe you wont be so "green" anymore.

real green,

 

There is no organization that can claim those same numbers.  Not even close!

 

Understand that Perfect Game and American Legion have nothing in common other than baseball.  The discussion is about Legion versus Travel Baseball.  We are only one small part of travel baseball.

 

Maybe the best way to explain what has happened is by using our home state.  Before the mid 90s, only a handful of players ended up at out of state colleges.  Since that time, players from Iowa have been recruited by colleges like LSU, Florida, Arizona State, Southern Cal, Baylor, Virginia, Vanderbilt, Georgia Tech, Oregon State, UCLA, Texas, and on and on.  

 

Very few players from Iowa were getting drafted, let alone drafted in the first few rounds. Since PG started events in Iowa, there have been well over 100 players drafted including several in the first two rounds. Over the past twenty years there is exactly one player from Iowa that did not play in the PG events that has been drafted. That player had ties to a scout and was picked in the last round.  Some of these players also played Legion Ball.

 

I think using the word Kool Ade is insultIng.  That sounds like we are something other than honest.  No doubt about it, baseball would get along without Perfect Game.  Only thing that would change is where many of the players end up. And how much money they get.

 

I think one trip to Jupiter Florida in October would change the way you think.

I kind of doubt it will change his thinking, not because you are incorrect, I just doubt it.

 

Honestly I believe the fault of PG and why they get heat from people is because of the size they have grown. If players and parents were honest with themselves about what they are and what they are looking for many wouldn't waste the time and money to go to some of the these events. PG used to be an elite organization for the best of the best. They still are an elite organization but they will pretty much take anyone willing to spend the $'s

 

If PG was simply worried about getting the best players they would be more selective in the process on who they agree to take...I am not saying PG should be more selective, only that if they were they would get less heat from many that are disillusioned by them.

 

Lets face it, if you are a D2 kid or a D3 kid who wants to play close to home and home isn't in the southeast you are probably not helping yourself a whole lot! People need to be intelligent shoppers!

I know of quite a few players who have attended the Jupiter tourney but never played D1. 

One of the moms on sons team this summer told me her other son plays D2. He was noticed up in Atlanta at PG a few summers ago and now plays up North. I think it was that one coach or scout told this other coach about him. He was a D2 player in a state with few good smaller programs.

As far as value I am talking about tournaments,which are quite different than showcase events.

The cost is dependent upon the team manager or organization. The total cost for a team to play is not out of line with todays youth sports programs. I know LX travel teams pay up about 750-1000 for tourney fees...divided by players of course. The biggest expense is for travel. Here you have to travel out of state to get noticed by any program. And if you play hockey you go live out of state for your entire HS career to get a scholarship or to get noticed for professional hockey.

 

I have to agree with PG staff, this was about AL and travel ball and travel ball. One cannot compare AL to PG events or any other organization.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think this is necessarily true.  There are recruiters from every level of college baseball that attend PG events.  Not sure about Jupiter, but I know the WWBA events have all kinds of recruiters there.  They are not looking for the PG 10s.  They are looking for the 2nd tier guys to fill their roster.  I would even go as far to say that the exposure that PG provides helps these players more than the top guys.  

 

Bottom line is, if a player is good enough to be scored a 10 by PG, you will be found by someone, almost no matter what you do or where you play.  If you are an 8-8.5 or even some 9s, you have to work harder to get noticed and picked up by someone.  That is who the D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO recruiters are looking for.  And they go to the WWBA events to find them.  I don't think a D2 recruiter from Connecticut will be going to Nebraska to watch some AL games to find players, but he will go to PG WWBA in Georgia for 2 or 3 weeks to find some guys who will fit his program.  

 

I really think this is where the most value comes in.

 

Here we are back to the PG debate again.  I really did not intend this when I started this thread.  I was just a little surprised to see the pitching velocities in the semi finals and finals of the AL WS.  I figured they would be higher especially compared to travel ball in general, not specifically PG.

 

Anyway, I was a finance and economics major for my undergraduate degree.  I think what we are talking about here with real green is a difference in concept of micro vs. macro theory.  I agree with real green in that he is talking about the macro level.  In the overall scheme of things, the total number of players and total dollar amount of scholarships in college baseball will not change regardless of whether PG is around or not.  Those numbers are a constant on a macro level.  The micro level relates to how individuals may be effected by PG.  How individual players may be effected by exposure to the scouts and recruiters out there.  Whether PG is around or not, X number of players will play college baseball and X number of dollars will be dolled out in scholarships.  However, it is the mix of players that will change within those macro numbers.  

 

Without PG, Joe Ballplayer from Iowa may never have gotten a look for any college baseball.  However, with PG, he has the opportunity to be seen and possibly play somewhere that he would not have had the opportunity otherwise.  Of course, because there are only so many spots available, that means that someone else will NOT get to play.  So, the question becomes, is college baseball better off or worse off because of this?  I would say that it becomes better because, presumably, Joe Baseball from Iowa is a better ballplayer than the person who would have been playing there without PG.  What I think this may have done is to increase the talent level, overall, of every college team.  PG has provided an opportunity for more talented players to fill those spots that are available.  

 

PG has not created more opportunities or money for players to play college ball.  But they have given more people the opportunity to play.  Some will lose out, yes.  But, at least in theory, they will be replaced by better ballplayers, who may not have had that opportunity otherwise.  

 

Macro vs. Micro.  Hope that makes sense to anyone??

bballman,

That make perfect sense.  Not to continue to defend PG because they don't really need it but not only, in your and PG's example about Iowa, did it open up other states to play baseball, it more than likely open up other states that were more compatible in other non-baseball ways with some of the Iowa boys.
If all you had to drink was Coca-Cola because that is all that is in your area but if you were able to go outside the area and find Pepsi, M Dew, etc and you find that more to your liking then great. But if you were never outside your area, then you didn't know that those other choices existed. Anyway, maybe not a good analogy to some but to me it makes sense.

Sorry to derail your thread. 

Very good post and exactly what I am trying to communicate.  Regarding PG increasing the talent level could be a great debate. 

As this has morphed into an AL & PG discussion, there are two things to consider as one tries to compare and contrast the two.

 

The actual missions of American Legion Baseball and the same for Perfect Game.  This should put a fork in any comparison as to the value each attempts to provide (lest we want facts to get in the way of a discussion).  From each of their respective websites.

 

American Legion (copied from their website):

 

American Legion Baseball is a national institution, having thrived through a world war, several national tragedies, and times of great prosperity as well as great despair.

The league still stands behind the traditional values upon which it was founded in 1925. American Legion Baseball has taught hundreds of thousands of young Americans the importance of sportsmanship, good health and active citizenship. The program is also a promoter of equality, making teammates out of young athletes regardless of their income levels or social standings. American Legion Baseball has been, and continues to be, a stepping stone to manhood for millions of young men who have gone on to serve their country or community, raise families or play the sport at the highest level.

A modest beginning

Community service has always been a core value of The American Legion. In 1925, this commitment was furthered to include a baseball program.

The league was first proposed at an American Legion state convention in Milbank, S.D., when Sioux Falls attorney and Department Commander Frank G. McCormick invited his close friend, Maj. John L. Griffith, to address the convention. Instead of a traditional speech, Griffith, who was also the collegiate commissioner of the Western Conference (now the Big Ten), spoke about the role athletics can play in the development of youth.

"The American Legion could well consider the advisability of assisting in the training of young Americans through our athletic games," Griffith said. Athletic competition teaches courage and respect for others, fostering their growth into active citizens, he explained.

 

It goes on and you can read in its entirety here, but you'll find no mention of scouting, recruiting, etc., in its charter.

 

Perfect Game (copied from their website):

 

Player Exposure

Perfect Game is devoted to furthering the development and career of the talented amateur baseball player. To that end, Perfect Game produces the very highest national level individual player showcases and team tournaments all over the United States. These events have proved invaluable to the college coaching community and major league baseball as they can scout a large population of talented ball players all in one location.

 

That's the opening paragraph.  The entirety is here.

I have a lot of respect for the business of PG and think they have done a great job and provide a solid product.  I think the product is much more valuable to colleges and MLB than to 95% of the PG players. 

Re: The PG debate

 

There's no doubt for top prospects PG is the place to be seen. For a lot of other ball players their thought process is sometimes wrong. It shouldn't be "I'm going to PG, or any other showcase to be discovered." Their thought process should be make a business plan, decide on target schools and decide where is the best place to get in front of them. It may still be PG. It may not.

 

Competing at PG told my son he could compete on any field. It was also an eye opener to what I had been telling him about competition. But he stood out and got noticed a regional event (SelectFest, NJ). At East Cobb he was one of 500 second tier top quality players.

Reading this is fascinating because there are so many pieces to the puzzle.  As stated above, in my state there would be some risks involved in choosing travel ball over American Legion.  I know of one kid who has a 7.5 PG rating that chose to play on a travel team out of St Louis this summer instead of playing for his high school legion team.  According to the parents I know at that school he won't have a spot on the high school team next spring.  If he were a 10 like Cole Stobbe?  You can bet they'd make room.  A 7.5? Doesn't sound like it. 

Anyway, I think the most important thing a parent needs is an honest evaluation of their kid's ability.  And the ability to accept that evaluation.  Which may be the hardest part of it all.

With regard to PG.....I'm not sure my son has a PG rating or not...if someone has a membership that will let them check, message me and I'll give you my son's info.  I'd be curious to know.   I can assure you that he isn't a 10.  He went to the WWBA as a 17U player, summer of 2014 and get some nice attention from a couple D1's that would never have seen or known about him otherwise...including a couple Ivy's who contacted his travel coach afterwards to gauge my son's interest.  He had no interest in going as far from home as the schools that contacted him....so we will never know what may have come from it.  Several other kids on his team....also, not 10's drew nice interest from the WWBA and at least a couple ended up getting offers and attending schools from "down South" that wouldn't have known these Ohio kids existed if not for PG. 

Unless he participated in a PG showcase, he won't have a grade, regardless of the number of PG tourneys he has played.  Grades are given as a result of attendance in their showcase events.  Also, grades are visible without any subscription at all.  If your son has a grade, you'll see it.  If not, it will be NA.

 

You do need a subscription to see ranking.  PM me his name and I'll PM you back his rating.

I think this is SO wrong on SO many levels.  HS should be separate.  To punish a kid for wanting to do something during the summer to further his baseball career is classless.  Shame on this HS coach.  If he is also the Legion coach, I think he is violating the honorable intentions of American Legion baseball and should not be allowed to coach one of their teams.

In Ohio there are no "HS based Legion teams".  Ohio HS Athletic Assoc rules say that no more than 4 kids from any school can play on any team outside of their school team in the summer.   Graduated players don't count....but for kids who will be in school this fall, only 4 could play together this past summer.

 

Not knowing the whole story it's hard to understand.  Very possibly this kid was a 15-20 guy on the roster and lost his spot to another kid who showed his talent and interest over the summer.

Most of these stories come from bubble kids.  It's a coin flip talent wise between making the team and getting cut. 

 

This kid comes back in the fall and the light switch turned on, moving him to a contender for a starting spot/roll player, and he will make the team. 

 

He comes back and is still a bubble kid and he is competing for a spot with a kid that played summer ball with his school than who gets the spot???

 

In theory I agree with you but in practice there is a whole lot of gray area.  First, until next spring it is really only speculation as to whether the coach will follow through on the threats.  But, having not seen this kid play and only knowing his measurables from the PG site he would probably be a middle of the pack player at that high school.  So, do you look at it as a punishment for him or a reward for the kids who stuck around as a part of the team and made the team better.  Keeping in mind that for us legion is an extension of the high school season.  The teams and coaches are the same.  My point was only that whether it is right or wrong there is a risk involved. That is the reality of the situation. 

 

What's a High School Legion Team?

 

American Legion is based on geography (Town) not high school. They are different entities. Son's team has kids that went to 4 different high schools. None of the coaches coached any of the high school teams (19 U all the way down to 15U). In addition Senior Legion is not really a HS team, as rising college sophomores can be on summer roster.

Not in Nebraska. Each HS has their own Legion team. Been that way since I played in the 80s

Our Legion team covered an area. The most players were from a large high school. Others came from a Catholic school, three Class B schools and privates (but lived in the geographic area).