Ankiel and HGH

Well, the story did come from the NY Daily News , although it seems too detailed to dismiss out of hand.

Excrement.

TLR with a DUI in ST. Hancock killed in a self-induced car crash. Spiezio in drug rehab. Encarnation's eye socket. Now Ankeil on PHD's.

What's next? Fredbird as the source of avian flu?

Sung to the tune of...

Put On A Happy Face

When all of my guys clear up,
I'll put on a happy face!

Hush up the crowds and cheer up,
I'll put on a happy face!

Shake off the gloomy tact of news TV,
It's not worthwhile.

I'll feel so good that I'll be glad
I decide to smile!
.
.
.
.


"Stop it! Stop it! Can the music! All this sappy stuff ain't workin'. Barkeep!...get me a frosty one...you know which one."


"Coming right up Orlando."



Complete story...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070906/SPORTS12/70907002

Not to justify it...but...

...this was while he was still a pitcher...and coming back from some arm issues to help his recovery. He stopped before becoming a position player...and before MLB banned them. Case closed.

And you did try to justify it. Case just opened and the names from this investigation just beginning. Football suspended players and coaches involved in this same investigation. Of course if baseball wants to sweep it under the rug, as previously done, and sit in the corner and quiver in fear at the Player's Association, that would be par for the course.

I realize that it was not against the rules for MLB but it was illegal and I am sure there is a against the interest of the game clause somewhere.

I hope baseball releases all the names from this investigation, the Mets clubbie investigation and the Grimm investigation.

quote:

I realize that it was not against the rules for MLB but it was illegal and I am sure there is a against the interest of the game clause somewhere.

deldad, I am not sure that is right. I believe HGH is illegal to use or possess, without a prescription. The article I read said Ankiel had an Rx from that Fla MD who reportedly provided HGH prescriptions to other players. If Ankiel had the Rx in 2004 as reported, and obtained or used the HGH with that Rx., then he would appear to have done nothing illegal.
The news surrounding Ankiel is troubling for different reasons, for me at least.
I am familiar with a couple of players, but one player in particular, who has battled an injury since a breakout season in 2005. Unfortunately, his true diagnosis appears to have been missed by the medical staff. He played through enormous pain that actually brought him to tears, many times, because of the intensity. He spent countless hours in the training room undergoing treatments which weren't effective for the true condition. He underwent cortisone shots which are acutely painful but did nothing for his true condition. He was medically approved and encouraged to play without risk of further damage. Evidence suggests there was more damage as a result of his playing.
The experience of that player helps me understand the mental intensity and desire of injured players to be healthy. It helps me appreciate what players can and do endure in pursuit of the passion and dream. It also helps to recognize why injured players may well pursue options that are outside the "mainstream."
On the other hand, when I look at that player and what he experienced, and compare it with those who may have used a Fla. "doctor" to obtain Rx for HGH and others, I cannot help but recognize my feelings that one of these players has been cheated, one has cheated, and nothing will happen to change it.

The list will be growing and growing and growing and soom we are going to understand and forgive all those players that we have destroyed on the last few years, believing that they were the only players that used it.

I'm not sure there are many people out there who thought only a few players have been juicing.

Is anyone surprised at all at the steady dribble of other names coming to our attention?

The prescription has to be legitimate.

Agree the prescription needs to be legitimate but isn't that a legal issue for the doctor and clinic, as opposed to Ankiel or other players who may have obtained drugs with prescriptions from this group?

infielddad-maybe, it would all depend on the diagnosis, if any, and the supporting documentation. Obviously some problems with the doctor and his practice to draw this amount of attention from Law Enforcement.

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
I'm not sure there are many people out there who thought only a few players have been juicing.

Is anyone surprised at all at the steady dribble of other names coming to our attention?

Steady dribble? According to that SI article Frank Martin posted, everyone was doing it.

If they release names I am ok with that, but in my opinion, those were the ones who got caught for some reason.

And please add an asterisk to Bonds record and anyone else who broke a record in this decade.

It's time for Bud to get tough, enough with this non testing of ML players due to the CBA.

I have a personal stake in all of this, it bothers me very much, and I understand the temptation, in any sport, to wanting to succeed at the highest level, break records, it's all about the almighty dollar.

Time for MLB to raise the milb salary and MLB starting salary, go for strict sloting of the draft, and impose a salary cap. Level it out. Take away some of the greed. That's what cleaned up the NFL,JMO.

If he was using HGH in 2004/2005, what's to say he's still not doing it, and just getting it from a different source? MLB wouldn't know, because they don't test for it.

Which, 2seamer, is true of all pro athletes. (Even all of us )

Moral issue aside for a moment, Ankiel's prescriptions were signed by Florida physician William Gogan, who provided them through a Palm Beach Gardens clinic called "The Health and Rejuvenation Center" -- HGH is (also) a whole anti-aging thing.

Rick is probably in the clear legally, unless the authorities could demonstrate that he knowingly solicited the doctor to write the prescriptions for what he knew was an illegal purpose. Doctors write prescriptions all the time for purposes that the medications haven't been explicitly approved by the FDA, so it would be up to the government to prove that the doctor and Rick conspired to abuse the HGH. Legally, I suspect the doctor is more exposed.

quote:

I cannot help but recognize my feelings that one of these players has been cheated, one has cheated, and nothing will happen to change it.

Truer words were never spoken!

I feel for the ones who are trying to do it honestly.

quote:

tpm quote:
According to that SI article Frank Martin posted, everyone was doing it.

Everyone, That's a lot

This whole issue is evolving into a McCarthy witch hunt and those who are playing by the rules will have this black cloud hovering over their heads forever.

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
The list will be growing and growing and growing and soom we are going to understand and forgive all those players that we have destroyed on the last few years, believing that they were the only players that used it.

Why would we forgive?

quote:

On the other hand, when I look at that player and what he experienced, and compare it with those who may have used a Fla. "doctor" to obtain Rx for HGH and others, I cannot help but recognize my feelings that one of these players has been cheated, one has cheated, and nothing will happen to change it.

This breaks my heart frankly. There appears to be a new excuse going around - he (name your player) was only doing it to get healthy. I believe this is what Rodney Harrison said recently and a member of the Cleveland Browns said who is now on a four game suspension.

The player infielddad speaks of had elevated his status into a legitimate prospect by doing things the old fashioned way. He followed the rules and believed his doctors when they told him he could do no further damage by continuing to play. He now has to try and rehab with the knowledge that some players who are also rehabbing may be using questionable substances and/or methods. What is fair about that?

Rick Ankiel appears to have more power than any player in the game right now. Maybe he is the "Natural" just like in the movie. I just don't know anymore

No offense to anyone here but we may never know who, how many, or the what they took. And a lot depends on how you view it.I don't for a minute believe that the nfl is cleaned up. Look at the size of these guys and tell me it's all natural.It's entertaiment for the most part with a lot of money at stake for all involved. Hgh can't be tested accurately and even when it does get there, the scientists-chemists-doctors will be there already two steps ahead with the next performance enhancer that no-one knows about. Bud Selig will probably go down as one of baseballs worst commissioners ever, if you think for a minute that guy didn't know something was going on in his sport, after all he does own part of a team doesn't he. Remember it's entertainment, there is a ton of money in it for a great deal of people.

Just take a look at some of the numbers in the last decade in this sport, offense, defense, it doesn't matter. Starting pitchers throwing harder than ever, closers reaching triple digits, little guys*Brady anderson* all of sudden banging out 50+ homers, 45 yr. old pitchers still throwing 95= fastballs, are some of these guys just freaks? maybe? But I know without a shadow of a doubt that steroids, hgh, whatever else performance enhancer is , was, and will probably continue to be linked to sports *entertainment*. Back in the 60's& 70's it was greenies*amphetamines*, you had coaches owners, other players tellin these guys to take them. No different in this era, owners, managers, other players telling guys to do it.

Myself, I think you would need a whole lot of asterisks or whatever notation you want to use to define this era and any records broken. I will still continue to watch, play, coach my kids, and hope to instill a love in them that I have for this wonderful game.

So I guess it's come to this:
All the actors and actresses in Hollywood get plastic surgery to enhance their looks and better their careers while all the athletes will use chemicals to enhance their performance.

I guess it bothers me because as one of my 7th graders told me a couple of days ago, "Dude, you're old."

quote:

Moral issue aside for a moment, Ankiel's prescriptions were signed by Florida physician William Gogan, who provided them through a Palm Beach Gardens clinic called "The Health and Rejuvenation Center" -- HGH is (also) a whole anti-aging thing. .

"Dude, you're old."


Skip, there are more than a few us us in that category. Maybe we should all take a trip down to FL and see if the good "doctor" has a group rate on that anti-aging program.

rz,
To misquote somebody who posts here How can you talk about people who are "playing by the rules" without proof that there are people playing by the rules? Do you have any hard evidence? Has it been proven in court that there is a player playing by the rules?

Spizzle,
There's a problem with anti-aging treatments. For example, there was an article recently showing that some treatment, I believe something to lower cholesterol but I could be wrong, led to an increase in cancer. No #%&%!, people who don't kick from a heart attack or a stroke then live long enough to get cancer. Big surprise there. HGH of course seems to have a more direct impact on the incidence of cancer.

That's just GREAT. Now it looks like we'll have to schedule a stop at MD Anderson in Houston on the way back from Palm Beach.

ESPN is now reporting that Troy Glaus' name has been linked to the same HGH source as Ankiel

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

Steady dribble? According to that SI article Frank Martin posted, everyone was doing it.

If they release names I am ok with that, but in my opinion, those were the ones who got caught for some reason.

And please add an asterisk to Bonds record and anyone else who broke a record in this decade.

It's time for Bud to get tough, enough with this non testing of ML players due to the CBA.

I have a personal stake in all of this, it bothers me very much, and I understand the temptation, in any sport, to wanting to succeed at the highest level, break records, it's all about the almighty dollar.

Time for MLB to raise the milb salary and MLB starting salary, go for strict sloting of the draft, and impose a salary cap. Level it out. Take away some of the greed. That's what cleaned up the NFL,JMO.

I agree, time to clean the mess up including the draft. And while you're at it, institute and international draft!

I hate to see players have their reputations jumped on because their names surface in suspicion. I'll bet anyone here could start a rumor on the internet about a player and have it on ESPN within two weeks.
How about giving players due process. You would want the same if you were accused of a crime.

There are two questions to entertain:

1) What is the game of baseball willing to tolerate? If baseball is going to tolerate enhancement drugs, which they obviously did to create this monster, what then?

2) Now it comes down to what the fans will tolerate. I hear a lot of complaining by the fans, but I don't see them turning away from the MLB ballparks. That in itself, is all the acceptance of the situation MLB needs.

I'm not being pro or con in the situation. I'm just trying to deal in reality. Personally I'd like to see a one year suspension for the first offense and a lifetime ban for the second offense. Nail one star and you'll see the problem end (assuming MLB really consideres it a problem). Stars retire all the time. Baseball will go on. The game is bigger than any one player or players.

I don't know enough about HGH to really weigh in with an opinion about Ankiel's situation, so I have some questions:

1) Are there actual medical uses for it? If so, what are they?

2) Is it legal...assuming one's gotten a proper prescription?

3) I've hear Ankiel's receipt of HGH was pursuant to an improper, even illegal, prescription...how so? Is it possible he didn't know there was anything illegal about it?

In the future, many more things may be added to the list of banned and/or illegal substances. As someone mentioned earlier, amphetamines were used as performance enhancers at one time, but if they weren't then banned, or obtained illegally, I'm not sure HOW to react. It does seem to me, however, if Ankiel's use can't be demonstrated to have been while HGH was banned, or that he can be demonstrated to have obtained it illegally (did he have the requisite criminal intent, mens rea, how can he be faulted?

Maybe he'll "come out" and say he thought HGH was some sort of "male enhancement" compound...

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

tpm quote:
According to that SI article Frank Martin posted, everyone was doing it.

Everyone, That's a lot

This whole issue is evolving into a McCarthy witch hunt and those who are playing by the rules will have this black cloud hovering over their heads forever.

That's my point rz, who did and who didn't? We will never know. We don't know who followed the rules and who did not.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
rz,
To misquote somebody who posts here How can you talk about people who are "playing by the rules" without proof that there are people playing by the rules? Do you have any hard evidence? Has it been proven in court that there is a player playing by the rules? .

Point well taken. I guess now we have to have two buckets, one with those admitted/convicted dopers, and one for the rest of the union. That was a bad assumption on my part that there are performance enhancing virgins under contract.

Why does this steroid use only seem to focus on baseball? Call it a hunch, but other pro sports might be facing the same issue. Cyclists and runners have been in the news ... do they have a better system already in place, or are they waiting to see how MLB deals with it?

To quote someone earlier, I believe that we will never be able to prove who has and who hasn't. We will never be able to prove what was taken and what wasn't. We will never be ahead of the curve.

The one thing that truly bothers me is that now we have high school athletes who believe they have to cheat to get ahead.

What's next Jr. High and Middle School athletes.

quote:

Originally posted by gunnersmom:
The one thing that truly bothers me is that now we have high school athletes who believe they have to cheat to get ahead.

What's next Jr. High and Middle School athletes.

Scary isn't it? This situation is all I need to know to be totally opposed to these drugs. Everyone should be working together to get rid of them...plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by gunnersmom:

The one thing that truly bothers me is that now we have high school athletes who believe they have to cheat to get ahead. What's next Jr. High and Middle School athletes.

Back when the steroid issue first became a problem in the NFL and down to the high school level back in the late eighties, I saw a poll asking college prospect high school football players if they would take substances if it would make them an NFL star, but they would die at age fifty. The "yes" response was above eighty percent. Young athletes feel invinceable and can't picture being middle age. The amazing thing about the question is the average age of death of an NFL lineman IS in the fifties.

quote:

There are two questions to entertain:

1) What is the game of baseball willing to tolerate? If baseball is going to tolerate enhancement drugs, which they obviously did to create this monster, what then?

2) Now it comes down to what the fans will tolerate. I hear a lot of complaining by the fans, but I don't see them turning away from the MLB ballparks. That in itself, is all the acceptance of the situation MLB needs.

I'm not being pro or con in the situation. I'm just trying to deal in reality. Personally I'd like to see a one year suspension for the first offense and a lifetime ban for the second offense. Nail one star and you'll see the problem end (assuming MLB really consideres it a problem). Stars retire all the time. Baseball will go on. The game is bigger than any one player or players.

TG, in nearly every place where you reference the "game" of baseball, I think it needs to be changed to the "business" of baseball.
To give you an example: if this were the "game" of baseball, the SF Giants would have jettisoned Bonds after their last place finish in 2006, gone younger, and taken the fact that AT&T would be drawing maybe 20,000 per game while they rebuilt, instead of 41,000 per game.
Because it is a "business," they chose to keep Bonds, fill the place every game until he got to 756 and field one of the worst teams in MLB this year.
The business of baseball is entertainment. ESPN and Fox are going to pay to televise Bonds, A'Rod and are not going to pay large $$$ to televise Kevin Frandsen and Dan Ortmeir(sorry Mom).
I have doubts that MLB and the player's association would be willing to do what was done in the Tour de France this year. It seems like cycling recognized the current issue and bit the bullet financially with a view of the longer term integrity of that sport. If the Giants would pay Bonds $16,000,000 and field a non competitive team around him in order to keep fans coming to games and filling their park, that is stark evidence the owners do not feel the "game" is bigger than the stars and evidence the owners will protect their stars over winning, to put fans in the stands.

On this very site, under the heading strength and conditioning there is a thread going on about legal HGH.

quote:

Originally posted by deldad:
On this very site, under the heading strength and conditioning there is a thread going on about legal HGH.

Perfect Example

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

There are two questions to entertain:

1) What is the game of baseball willing to tolerate? If baseball is going to tolerate enhancement drugs, which they obviously did to create this monster, what then?

2) Now it comes down to what the fans will tolerate. I hear a lot of complaining by the fans, but I don't see them turning away from the MLB ballparks. That in itself, is all the acceptance of the situation MLB needs.

I'm not being pro or con in the situation. I'm just trying to deal in reality. Personally I'd like to see a one year suspension for the first offense and a lifetime ban for the second offense. Nail one star and you'll see the problem end (assuming MLB really consideres it a problem). Stars retire all the time. Baseball will go on. The game is bigger than any one player or players.

TG, in nearly every place where you reference the "game" of baseball, I think it needs to be changed to the "business" of baseball.
To give you an example: if this were the "game" of baseball, the SF Giants would have jettisoned Bonds after their last place finish in 2006, gone younger, and taken the fact that AT&T would be drawing maybe 20,000 per game while they rebuilt, instead of 41,000 per game.
Because it is a "business," they chose to keep Bonds, fill the place every game until he got to 756 and field one of the worst teams in MLB this year.
The business of baseball is entertainment. ESPN and Fox are going to pay to televise Bonds, A'Rod and are not going to pay large $$$ to televise Kevin Frandsen and Dan Ortmeir(sorry Mom).
I have doubts that MLB and the player's association would be willing to do what was done in the Tour de France this year. It seems like cycling recognized the current issue and bit the bullet financially with a view of the longer term integrity of that sport. If the Giants would pay Bonds $16,000,000 and field a non competitive team around him in order to keep fans coming to games and filling their park, that is stark evidence the owners do not feel the "game" is bigger than the stars and evidence the owners will protect their stars over winning, to put fans in the stands.

I'm very aware it's a business. But the business is commonly referred to as "the game of baseball." Even people in the business use the term "the game of baseball."

I'm not convinced baseball considers enhancements a problem. They brought the game back to popularity in the 90's. I believe baseball is giving the situation lip service. They only catch retired stars, minor leaguers and insignificant (from a gate receipts standpoint) major leaguers.

I'm not sure the fans see enhancements as a big issue. I don't see them so appalled they're turning away from the stadiums.

My instincts tell me if all the players who have used enhancements ever comes forth, the numbers and names will be shocking. That's why I'm not expecting it to happen. The shame is there are possibly clean players being accused of being dirty due to their accomplishments.

This was posted on the other thread and I thought it made a lot of valid points. Wanted to share.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
There are thousands of legal (I guess safe?) "supplements" on the market. You can buy them at any Nutrition Store in the country. You can even buy some supplements in a grocery store.

These of course are different than steroids or HGH which require a prescription.

We live in a funny world where people can smoke tobacco and drink whiskey as much as they want legally. Yet both of those things are known to create premature death in many cases.

So while I'm smoking a big cigar and belting down some booze it seems hypocritical to cut down baseball players based on health reasons.

So the only thing left is to base the argument on whether or not this is cheating. If it is illegal it is cheating. If it is legal it's OK.

I knew players who would drink a gallon of black coffee before a game. Guess it makes them more alert or something thus giving them an advantage. Caffiene is legal!

There really are legal supplements that help the muscles recover more quickly. There are legal supplements that help people get stronger quicker.

They are legal without a prescription. I still feel sorry for Mark Magwire because the stuff he was "caught" with was sold over the counter at nutrition stores.

These days it's about Steroids and Human Growth Hormones. Both are used a lot in the medical field. They require a doctors prescription. These things are much different than the over the counter supplements.

BTW, you eat too many eggs... you are likely to die! Drink too much beer... you are likely to die! Smoke too many cigarettes... you are likely to die! You drive your car too fast often enough... you are likely to die! Wait... That one is illegal!

So though the health concerns are very important, especially when it comes to our kids, most people don't really take care of themselves that great. We just want our kids to be different/better than we were. We call upon experience in an attempt to make that happen.

These guys cheated! that is what this is about if we are talking about baseball. Then again, players have been cheating in baseball since the game began.

Finally, how do we tell our kids that this stuff can harm them in their middle ages when they watch things like ultimate fighting on TV. I guess it's better than the old gladiator days. Talk about short life spans. Then there's WAR, that's kind of risky for your health, too.

Steroids are a bad thing! But it's real easy for me to see the temptation involved. We grow up in a competitive world where winners are cheered and looked upon as heros. Losers are booed and called "goats". Maybe we need to redefine what winning is, but that isn't likely to happen anytime real soon with all the examples out there.

So this problem belongs to all of us. Most all of us are indirectly responsible for placing so much importance on winning and being a star player. We created a monster!

Just my thoughts... probably wrong again.[/QUOTE

TG, I pretty much agree with everything you have said other than your view that my suggestion was condescending.
Of course those in the "business" will refer to it as the "game."
They are brilliant and successful business people and didn't get that way by accident.

quote:

Please don't condescend to me about the business of baseball. I'm very aware it's a business. But the business is commonly referred to as "the game of baseball." Even people in the business use the term "the game of baseball."

I completely understand what you're saying. Nothing is an ounce of a revelation to me. That's why I posed the phrase "assuming baseball considers it (enhancements) a problem."

TG - I didn't see any condescending language in infielddad's post. Would appreciate it greatly if you backed off in your tone. Please remember it is a privilege (not a right) to post here and being nice and respectful to others is part of it.